Topic: EAW or OP, which is better when fully patched? (Read 16027 times)

mathcubeguy · « **on:** June 01, 2003, 11:41:46 am »

Im going to install one right now since my computer is crapping out on letting me play 3 without having to wait ten minutes for my mouse to move across the screen...

Which of the SFC 2 games works best when fully up to date?

Tommy20 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 01, 2003, 01:11:53 pm »

Quote:

without having to wait ten minutes for my mouse to move across the screen...

when this happens to me i usually change the batteries in my cordless mouse

p.s that is if u have a cordless one

FireSoul · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2003, 01:20:26 pm »

currently, for D2 online play, EAW has SQL while OP doesn't.. but otherwise it seems just about equal ..

.. as for GSA play, I really.. *REALLY* wonder why people insist on playing EAW over OP. Really.. What the hell are you guys doing over there in that other room/channel? Hrm?!?
OP's more stable, and has more features.

-- Luc

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:40:42 pm »

2 Things: OP's D2 is broken, and the horrible X ships. Remove both as a factor and it's better.

FireSoul · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:45:12 pm »

Who said OP's D2 was broken?
.. have you tried it since the last patch? ..

.. and as for the Xships, you don't have to play them if you don't want to. You know that.

kosh2000 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:54:52 pm »

Here i will say it i dont care flame suit is now on

EAW SUCKS

OP ROCKS

FireSoul · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2003, 03:51:20 pm »

I wouldn't say that it sucks. It's a far cry better than nothing at all..

.. but I agree that OP is better. It completely confuses me to watch people play EAW .. and insist on it too.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2003, 05:10:01 pm »

That is a trick question, as neither game is fully patchable, as the games were never 100% finished/corrected.

That being said, EAW has ALL the patches it is going to get, whereas OP has the gameplay portion of the last patch, but not the multi/D2 part of the patch, so EAW is more stable/less likely to cause you to put a 10mm hole in your monitor than is OP.

Once OP gets the multiplayer part of the patch and IF it works... then there will no longer be a reason to play EAW as it is inferior in the availablity of ships, races, weapons, etc.

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:07:00 pm »

Again, AJTK, I disagree.

OP beats EAW hands down in standard multiplayer and single player modes.
As for the D2, I hear that even on EAW they use the flatfile DB for the big servers.

This is my opinion: There is no way in hell EAW is better than OP.
-- Luc

Magnum357 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:12:27 pm »

Heck, I like both games. I just wish I could play OP on Gamespy just once. I haven't tried playing EAW on GS but I should experiment and see if I can. If OP can fix multiplayer and I'm able to at least play on GS, I would pick OP over EAW.

Hey, does anyone know where I can get the latest patch for EAW? I have the latest for IP (2538) but I can't play on GS for some reason (I'm just a modem user). I would like to experiment playing EAW online since I can't do it with OP.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:50:12 pm »

The latest EAW patch can be had here I believe:

http://www.sfcx.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1

You can also get the OP patch from SFCX, as well as a variety of other downloads, including the mission packs and shiplists.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:51:34 pm »

Oh, and OP no contest. It's just got more, and you don't certain things you don't have to use it so...

T-Rex_IEA · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:14:16 pm »

here is a news flash for all who have been saying OP is better than EAW and vice versa,

op IS eaw and eaw IS op. The only real differnce in the two is the ship selection and the differnt bugs each has. They both play the same for me i.e., same game engine, therefore same gameplay. there is no real gameplay differences at all.

In my humble opinon OP should have been a true expansion to EAW, and many others believe this as well, That ios why most old timers dont play it, its not because that it is bad but because of the way it was released. Taldren kinda stabbed everyone in the back on that one. They COULD have made it a stand alone AND an EAW expansion but chose not to, SO we are stuck with two almost identical games to play .

I say Live with it and play whichever one you want to.

T-rex

Cleaven · « **Reply #17 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:36:10 pm »

Being somebody who plays online from a long ways away, I have found OP to be more stable for multiplayer, in so far as I don't drop as much. There are still the occasional D2 problems but it is probably not right to compare the lastest EAW server with 30 or 40 on it, to OP with 10-15 players.

So, with the latest updates making the OP weapons and rules the same as EAW, OP wins on gameplay because it has extra weapons, graphics, and stability.

D2-wise there are now features, like neutral co-op that seems to mostly work which, in my mind, leaves EAW for dead. The only hindrance is that admins are more familiar with using the older, simpler EAW server settings. But, like a petrochemical economy, it can't last. EAW is listed as final, while OP is awaiting at least one more update. Not to say that somebody couldn't do again to EAW, but what's the point? If you are going to spend time adding to a game, then add to OP on the basis of coding lessons learnt from SFC3 which is supposed to be based on the OP code. (OP is supposed to a generation ahead of EAW in code but I have only had this explained to me by outsiders.)

When OP-D2 didn't work there was no question. Now that OP D2 has been demonstrated as no longer suffering from the old problems this is no longer a valid stance.

I'm pretty sure OP uses a later version of DirectPlay too.

FireSoul · « **Reply #18 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:45:13 pm »

I ran 'strings' on the OP exe. It is a small linux application that removes any non human-readable charaters and allows you to read any text left. .. and based on the symbols I saw, the 2 games use the same DirectPlay version. In fact, I'm pretty sure this game would run on DirectX 7!

.. however.. to call both games "identical" .. HELL NO. They may be very similar, but they are far from being identical. Hell, I submit my shiplist as a good reason to play OP over EAW.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Cleaven · « **Reply #19 on:** June 01, 2003, 08:09:51 pm »

I guessed that a later version of DirectPlay was the reason for the better stability.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #20 on:** June 01, 2003, 10:43:22 pm »

no contest.. OP.

the only problem with OP presae - is the dyna hex thing with the pirates layer underneath.

op as a matter of fact has always had more stable multicode than EAW. it is also true that no campaign that i am aware of actively uses sql - thats op or EAW..

op has more arcs (boom arcs anyone?), more ships (wyn,LDR, some monitors)- and an advanced era.

i agree - i have never understood why some believe that eaw is superior. its not. if i had to put my money somewhere - it would be in op.

3dot14 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:27:44 pm »

Guys: Being Good and Being Popular are two different facts.

OP is Better, EAW is more popular.

GE-Raven · « **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:46:25 pm »

EAW is better now in my mind for one reason...

No one plays OP on GSA.

70 or so everynight for EAW. There it is folks... when you get EVERYONE to move... I might too.

GE-Raven

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:52:28 pm »

Maybe if you move everyone else will follow.

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #24 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:54:20 pm »

The simple fact is that as long as there are X ships in the default shiplist many won't come within miles of it.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #25 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:00:39 pm »

therein lies the most (pardon the rudeness) LAME excuse ive ever heard. there is no reason in the world that those people have to use or play with x ships. in fact, even on a server, the FYA can be pushed back so far or simply removed from the shipyard completely - all without having to do a think to the shiplist.

so, it is a very narrowminded and poor excuse. however, i do know that it exsist.

thanks.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:21:18 pm »

I think there is a rather easy way to settle this point. Sales. How many copies of EAW were sold vs OP. I suspect OP sales were low and encompassed a larger fraction of novices who rarely played it and dumped it considering the low player base for OP. I myself bought OP after having a friend's install of EAW and SFC1 purchased with my own money on my machine for a while which I had gotten out of. I stopped playing OP altogether for just the reasons above, no players, no dyna, X ships BS.

While OP might be "better" because it has more "stuff", I still don't think it has a player base especially if sales were low and new copies are hard to come by. Why hunt around for OP when you already have EAW fully patched with working dyna and consistent player base?

Be that as it may, what has OP really got to offer? Phaser arcs? New ships? Supposed stability? Oh, yes! Pirates! Don't think the whole pirate thing has enough umph, enough meaningful context to be compelling. Look at player race preferences. Most played races are TOS races with feds leading substantially. Throw in some pirates no one has ever heard outside of SFB that are not fully SFB implemented (custumization of ships, etc) and you have a recipe for a yawn.

Doesn't seem like enough to entice me to switch nor most people who have EAW and are comfortable with it. BTW are magic photons still in effect in OP?

Fact is Taldren shot itself in the foot with OP. While they may have had the best intentions, the fiasco ruined any transition to OP.

kosh2000 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:36:37 pm »

pirates not fun i guss you never played on the triangel then and no dyna on op hmm some of the biggest servers where and still are on op .

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #28 on:** June 02, 2003, 04:20:12 pm »

I find myself in agreement with Nanner... this is MOST disconserting!

HAND

FireSoul · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2003, 04:24:15 pm »

Look. I'll let you guys figure it out: I have some testing to do, and then a shiplist to start updating.

-- Luc

CptCastrin · « **Reply #30 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:17:58 pm »

Hmmm, I could write a huge / long post on the pros and cons of both. I started in SFC1 and have played (and admined / hosted) in many online matches and campaigns. However I will refrain.

Sufice it to say it's your call. OP and EaW are great games. IMHO it's OP that wins but understand that's my take.

I will say this however, all the reasons that people have given here as to why they think OP is not worth the effort is just more FUD posting by those "hurt" by Taldren putting out a standalone game instead of an expantion to their first love. The fact is that if this game (OP) HAD been made as an expansion then EaW would have almost completely disapeared as a game. OP uses a new graphics engine and polishes much of the base game mechanics as well as adds some good (and bad) new toys. All that would have replaced the EaW versions thus EaW would have become OP! (However you'd still have those players that would refuse to install it and remain "pure" EaW so the current split would probably still been there, they just wouldn't be such a huge majority.)

I only wish they had made it an expansion, it's a better game and would have closed out EaW by allowing Taldren to drop support instead of forcing them to bow to those that just won't let go. But they didn't ... I wonder if anyone ever thought that maybe that was, by some fluk, by design. Or maybe they should just count their lucky stars that they still have an EaW to play and it was never "expanded" on.

Play OP or EaW as you wish. As for me I'll stick with OP which is a better game IMHO.

mathcubeguy · « **Reply #31 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:32:24 pm »

Can you flip hexes in OP or is that still broken? That was the whole thing I was woried about and should have been what I asked in the first place. Sorry for the trouble...

CptCastrin · « **Reply #32 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:39:16 pm »

Flipping hexes works just fine IF the map is setup correctly. Come out to Tech Wars and see.

We are having a base issue but it doesn't seem to be game related. More likely it's a setting on the server (or a mission problem) but we're working on it. If you are going to come out to Tech Wars be sure and visit www.sfcx.org first and pickup the OP+ and ED Mission packs (in SFC:OP section in Downloads) and "install" them (readmes are included).

Hope to see you out there!

Bonk · « **Reply #34 on:** June 02, 2003, 06:05:12 pm »

So flipping hexes works - if you make all pirate races
non-playable and make all hexes on the cartel map belong
to one cartel which is allied to all empires?
That sounds broken to me.

(Is this the "more complicated" server gf setting that was mentioned? - bah!)

I am currently testing a customised multi-race shiplist on OP and
have just discovered that I do NOT really have 15 races to work with
but only eight, as in EAW, as outlined above. I am going to have to
bump 3 empires from the shiplist (or combine as in SG3) in order
to achieve the desired effect.

I have noticed other issues that I will not outline here that I have never
seen in EAW.

The "Masters Arena" has been running on SQL for some time now.
(Granted it is not popular...) SQL allows me to play on a D2 server
from behind the same router (with loopback) because I can edit my
IP address in the SQL db - allowing me to be drafted properly.
(But one feature of SQL - It will support higher player numbers
but this has NEVER been properly tested - LB3 was our best chance to
test but this was lost.)

FireSoul, does this mean that Arctic has finished his patch and we will
have SQL for the OP D2? Or at least the cartel map will be fixed?

Bonk · « **Reply #36 on:** June 02, 2003, 07:34:10 pm »

Thanks for the tips and pleasant reply Castrin,

Umm, ANYONE who tries to play on a D2 server from behind
the same router will not be able to be drafted unless they can
edit the live db. This is not just my playing issue. You know full well
what other advantages SQL has over the flatfile.

Oh and thanks for your ASSumptions - I never made any comments like this.
Sigh - make a valid point on these forums and your person is attacked - never fails.

OK then, I do not have eight races and eight pirate cartels to work with,
just eight races - there happy? (sufficiently pedantic?).

I have been unable to affect the DV of any hex as a pirate in any way.
I'll let you know when I do. (have tested from three of eight cartels on the stock map)

Thanks again, I'm sure you're really a nice guy that just gets a tad defensive about OP.

Bonk · « **Reply #39 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:05:15 pm »

Well all I know is that if you are local to the D2 server it will see your local IP address
which is useless. Yes, you can be drafted but the mission will count down to zero
as your local IP address cannot be seen from the internet.

So, if I edit my IP address in the DB, drafting will work.

As I understand it, the router has nothing to do with why the D2 server sees the local IP address
an not the WAN address. One public IP address is all I have. If you are local to the D2 server it
will always see the local IP address.

Have you ever run a D2 server (on both the flatfile and SQL) behind the same router as a client?
If so then maybe you can explain this further to me, as the experience would add credibility to your claims.

"This is based on you having a home router that is not fully NAT capable for more than one internal address"
um, why does port forwarding work to multiple internal addresses then?

This is most confusing.

EDIT: I must emphasise that the D2 server sees YOUR LOCAL IP ADDRESS - it does not matter
what port the client responds on if the IP address in the db is a local one, it just will not work.

Edit Again (

): The real question here, as FireSoul has hinted, is, will the cartel map be fixed
in the next patch? Will SQL be added? Is there really another patch for OP coming?

Bonk · « **Reply #41 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:32:34 pm »

Certainly, I am not arguing that it makes the game better,
this sidetrack has led us down the garden path on this thread.

Interesting that obtaining another public IP by PPTP will work,
I hadn't thought of that, but don't have access to such a server anyway.

What I am really interested in is whether OP is going to get another
patch and whether it will fix the cartel map and would it include
support for SQL? (please, pretty please tell me it is so!)

P.S. I always play OP for direct TCP/IP games - originally because of your
shiplist but now because I am doing my best to complete the SFB OP shiplist
started by gman and used by CJ in his UltimateTOS mod for OP.

Bonk · « **Reply #43 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:38:47 pm »

Goody, goody! That is great news! <crosses fingers for SQL>

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #45 on:** June 03, 2003, 04:43:54 am »

If you want to find out how to run 2 PC's off the same router, ask Doppler. I'm almost certian that he and a buddy do this.

Cleaven · « **Reply #46 on:** June 03, 2003, 05:14:32 am »

It would be very interesting to see this done.

Mog · « **Reply #47 on:** June 03, 2003, 05:44:25 am »

A friend and I managed to connect to the same D2 server at the same time via a router, by using a program called dxport.exe. But, we could not play in the same missions, although we could be drafted into separate missions. That's the best we've managed, but it wasn't enough as we obviously desired to fly together in the same missions, hence my friend gave the game up.

Cleaven · « **Reply #49 on:** June 03, 2003, 07:47:22 am »

How can it work perfectly if you have already said you can't draft properly?

Yes.

Like hell.

And this from somebody called Bonk and registered two weeks ago. Get real.

Bonk · « **Reply #50 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:11:56 am »

Um, by editing the SQL db to show my public IP that's how.

Geez, chill man. I'd still like you to explain your statements.
I am showing you the respect of listening to your views,
please show the same courtesy, thanks.

Cleaven · « **Reply #51 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:19:58 am »

I see the way you use SQL editing of the DB, but that doesn't change how drafting works for standard setups, and would only be useful for a local admin. You may be able to fix the routing for an internal IP depending on the router you have. None of the common home routers work in the same way and several of them don't even allow for the correct functioning of an OP client.

As for chilling, you are obviiosly somebody who has been around here for a bit, and I am very suspicious of your motive for the subterfuge. And I find the name offensive too.

Bonk · « **Reply #52 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:28:15 am »

Ah, thanks so much for the explanation of your comments.

Sorry if the name offends - it's not meant to, if it means something that I have not considered I will post under a new name if you desire. I just picked it at random.

FireSoul · « **Reply #53 on:** June 03, 2003, 09:03:59 am »

Yeah. DXport is interesting, but doesn't solve the problem where every host has a port 47624. SFC uses DX7 code.

.. this has given me an idea and I will experiment with it and my linux 2.4 firewall and some source-based packet mangling. I probably won't succeed, but it's worth the try. If * DO* succeed, I will document here what I had to do. I was not aware of DXPort until today, so I am hopeful now.

-- Luc

edit:
Forget the idea.. I just remembered DX will connect to 47624 to discover what 2300-2400 port to connect to. Since that portforward could only be forwarded to a single machine, the argument is moot. We can't predict which machine will be hosting when taking drafting into account.

Mog · « **Reply #54 on:** June 03, 2003, 10:22:12 am »

Luc, what do you mean by the last bit? Can't predict which machine will be hosting? As it's a LAN we're talking about, the drafter can be determined easily, unless both parties are drafted by a third party.

Going from memory, when we tried this, what happened was both of us had the in-mission screen come up, but only one of us had our ship appear, when drafted by someone else.

FireSoul · « **Reply #55 on:** June 03, 2003, 10:46:54 am »

Port 47624 is kinda like a management port. It can only be forwarded to 1 machine. usually the pre-designated host for a direct-IP game. Since drafting isn't too keen on that.. and the host is the person draftign all the time, it wouldn't work.

Unless there's somethign else I'm missing here, of course.
-- Luc

AFortius · « **Reply #56 on:** June 04, 2003, 09:25:45 pm »

With all these arguments, I am sort of swayed to pick up a copy of OP. I am playing exclusively EAW in D2 (SG3). But it seems that I will give OP a try. Any OP campaign going-on right now ala SG3?

- AF

FireSoul · « **Reply #57 on:** June 04, 2003, 10:07:03 pm »

TechWars is still ongoing, but it was.. well..
.. everyone's playing on SG3 except for a very small group. Bleh!

.. I hope Techwars is restarted after SG3 is over. I was having fun.

Bonk · « **Reply #58 on:** June 05, 2003, 07:23:47 am »

It seems we only have enough players for one good sized server at a time.
I think that the "ISC Invasion" is next up on EAW and will also draw a crowd.
Perhaps OP admins could join in with the EAW admins in scheduling the servers
to get the best crowds?

Mog · « **Reply #59 on:** June 05, 2003, 08:28:13 am »

That's the intention, Bonk, however, when the current schedule was arranged, the OP patch hadn't been released - it kinda came as a bit of a surprise, and no rescheduling has been done yet, hence all OP has currently are small servers to keep it going, so to speak.

FireSoul · « **Reply #60 on:** June 05, 2003, 09:45:47 am »

However, continued work will ensure OP's place in the future. With any luck, it will prove to the D2 community that OP is indeed viable.

.. hm.. especially if they play on EAW server for so long that another OP patch would come out and fix all the rest of the issues. That probably won't happen, but it's an interesting thought.

FireSoul · « **Reply #62 on:** June 05, 2003, 01:16:55 pm »

That was well formulated, dogmatix. Very well said.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #63 on:** June 05, 2003, 04:41:49 pm »

Yes, to be correct, the SFB, or X1 ships in OP are pretty close to SFB specs in most cases, but the X2 ships, the "Taldren X ships" are total abortions. They look like the things you used to make in SFB groups for a team of ships to attack.

Silly indeed. Keep it up FS, you really oughta get PAID for the massive amount of work you do and the even LARGER amount of crap you take for doing it!

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #64 on:** June 06, 2003, 01:39:35 am »

Well..

.. I *LIKE* this game. .. and I'm hoping I get every possible chance to make it better. You can bet that if I end up making a difference, I got paid in a different way.

.. and trust me on this: SFC:OP's not dead. Not by far. The work continues so that playtime becomes better.

-- Luc

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #65 on:** June 06, 2003, 04:01:53 pm »

Well, EAW IS dead for me, has been since about 1 minute prior to the installation of OP, since I deleted EAW for an identical, but improved game.

Stand-alone expansion, HAH!

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #67 on:** June 06, 2003, 05:22:53 pm »

It happens that I need info on those exact bugs. I think these were posted in the OLD forums at some point, but ..

.. anyways, like in the D2 Experiences forum for the thread that's asking for data.

-- Luc

FireSoul · « **Reply #69 on:** June 09, 2003, 05:31:55 pm »

You do realize, now that it is know there is going to be another patch, that people's opinions may have to change on this subject? Once the OP patch is out, I'll let people decide for themselves what they think is best, tho.

-- Luc

FireSoul · « **Reply #71 on:** June 10, 2003, 08:27:50 pm »

Then I hope you will try OP again after the next patch. The speed bug has been squashed in 2538. Other D2 bugs are being squashed for this next patch. OP will be be-au-ti-ful after this.

-- Luc

Wolf2525 · « **Reply #73 on:** June 10, 2003, 08:40:07 pm »

After reading all this, I'm really glad I was able to locate a copy. I really don't know why I didn't buy it when it first came out. I kinda regret that now, especially with how much fun EAW has become since I dusted it off. Still haven't played much online yet, with either EAW or SFCIII, but have been having an absolute blast even in the single player campaigns.

Cleaven · « **Reply #74 on:** June 10, 2003, 09:33:54 pm »

It would be cool to create a simple way to install the new modded D2 missions into the the single player EAW for OP campaigns, esp the ones using the config files. There are a lot of people who have never experienced them because editing .gf files is not their cup of tea.

<I don't mean as part of the patch>

mathcubeguy · « **Reply #75 on:** June 01, 2003, 11:41:46 am »

Im going to install one right now since my computer is crapping out on letting me play 3 without having to wait ten minutes for my mouse to move across the screen...

Which of the SFC 2 games works best when fully up to date?

FireSoul · « **Reply #78 on:** June 01, 2003, 01:20:26 pm »

currently, for D2 online play, EAW has SQL while OP doesn't.. but otherwise it seems just about equal ..

.. as for GSA play, I really.. *REALLY* wonder why people insist on playing EAW over OP. Really.. What the hell are you guys doing over there in that other room/channel? Hrm?!?
OP's more stable, and has more features.

-- Luc

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #81 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:40:42 pm »

2 Things: OP's D2 is broken, and the horrible X ships. Remove both as a factor and it's better.

FireSoul · « **Reply #82 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:45:12 pm »

Who said OP's D2 was broken?
.. have you tried it since the last patch? ..

.. and as for the Xships, you don't have to play them if you don't want to. You know that.

kosh2000 · « **Reply #83 on:** June 01, 2003, 02:54:52 pm »

Here i will say it i dont care flame suit is now on

EAW SUCKS

OP ROCKS

FireSoul · « **Reply #84 on:** June 01, 2003, 03:51:20 pm »

I wouldn't say that it sucks. It's a far cry better than nothing at all..

.. but I agree that OP is better. It completely confuses me to watch people play EAW .. and insist on it too.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #85 on:** June 01, 2003, 05:10:01 pm »

That is a trick question, as neither game is fully patchable, as the games were never 100% finished/corrected.

That being said, EAW has ALL the patches it is going to get, whereas OP has the gameplay portion of the last patch, but not the multi/D2 part of the patch, so EAW is more stable/less likely to cause you to put a 10mm hole in your monitor than is OP.

Once OP gets the multiplayer part of the patch and IF it works... then there will no longer be a reason to play EAW as it is inferior in the availablity of ships, races, weapons, etc.

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #86 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:07:00 pm »

Again, AJTK, I disagree.

OP beats EAW hands down in standard multiplayer and single player modes.
As for the D2, I hear that even on EAW they use the flatfile DB for the big servers.

This is my opinion: There is no way in hell EAW is better than OP.
-- Luc

Magnum357 · « **Reply #87 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:12:27 pm »

Heck, I like both games. I just wish I could play OP on Gamespy just once. I haven't tried playing EAW on GS but I should experiment and see if I can. If OP can fix multiplayer and I'm able to at least play on GS, I would pick OP over EAW.

Hey, does anyone know where I can get the latest patch for EAW? I have the latest for IP (2538) but I can't play on GS for some reason (I'm just a modem user). I would like to experiment playing EAW online since I can't do it with OP.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #88 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:50:12 pm »

The latest EAW patch can be had here I believe:

http://www.sfcx.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1

You can also get the OP patch from SFCX, as well as a variety of other downloads, including the mission packs and shiplists.

EmeraldEdge · « **Reply #89 on:** June 01, 2003, 06:51:34 pm »

Oh, and OP no contest. It's just got more, and you don't certain things you don't have to use it so...

T-Rex_IEA · « **Reply #91 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:14:16 pm »

here is a news flash for all who have been saying OP is better than EAW and vice versa,

op IS eaw and eaw IS op. The only real differnce in the two is the ship selection and the differnt bugs each has. They both play the same for me i.e., same game engine, therefore same gameplay. there is no real gameplay differences at all.

In my humble opinon OP should have been a true expansion to EAW, and many others believe this as well, That ios why most old timers dont play it, its not because that it is bad but because of the way it was released. Taldren kinda stabbed everyone in the back on that one. They COULD have made it a stand alone AND an EAW expansion but chose not to, SO we are stuck with two almost identical games to play .

I say Live with it and play whichever one you want to.

T-rex

Cleaven · « **Reply #92 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:36:10 pm »

Being somebody who plays online from a long ways away, I have found OP to be more stable for multiplayer, in so far as I don't drop as much. There are still the occasional D2 problems but it is probably not right to compare the lastest EAW server with 30 or 40 on it, to OP with 10-15 players.

So, with the latest updates making the OP weapons and rules the same as EAW, OP wins on gameplay because it has extra weapons, graphics, and stability.

D2-wise there are now features, like neutral co-op that seems to mostly work which, in my mind, leaves EAW for dead. The only hindrance is that admins are more familiar with using the older, simpler EAW server settings. But, like a petrochemical economy, it can't last. EAW is listed as final, while OP is awaiting at least one more update. Not to say that somebody couldn't do again to EAW, but what's the point? If you are going to spend time adding to a game, then add to OP on the basis of coding lessons learnt from SFC3 which is supposed to be based on the OP code. (OP is supposed to a generation ahead of EAW in code but I have only had this explained to me by outsiders.)

When OP-D2 didn't work there was no question. Now that OP D2 has been demonstrated as no longer suffering from the old problems this is no longer a valid stance.

I'm pretty sure OP uses a later version of DirectPlay too.

FireSoul · « **Reply #93 on:** June 01, 2003, 07:45:13 pm »

I ran 'strings' on the OP exe. It is a small linux application that removes any non human-readable charaters and allows you to read any text left. .. and based on the symbols I saw, the 2 games use the same DirectPlay version. In fact, I'm pretty sure this game would run on DirectX 7!

.. however.. to call both games "identical" .. HELL NO. They may be very similar, but they are far from being identical. Hell, I submit my shiplist as a good reason to play OP over EAW.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Cleaven · « **Reply #94 on:** June 01, 2003, 08:09:51 pm »

I guessed that a later version of DirectPlay was the reason for the better stability.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #95 on:** June 01, 2003, 10:43:22 pm »

no contest.. OP.

the only problem with OP presae - is the dyna hex thing with the pirates layer underneath.

op as a matter of fact has always had more stable multicode than EAW. it is also true that no campaign that i am aware of actively uses sql - thats op or EAW..

op has more arcs (boom arcs anyone?), more ships (wyn,LDR, some monitors)- and an advanced era.

i agree - i have never understood why some believe that eaw is superior. its not. if i had to put my money somewhere - it would be in op.

3dot14 · « **Reply #96 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:27:44 pm »

Guys: Being Good and Being Popular are two different facts.

OP is Better, EAW is more popular.

GE-Raven · « **Reply #97 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:46:25 pm »

EAW is better now in my mind for one reason...

No one plays OP on GSA.

70 or so everynight for EAW. There it is folks... when you get EVERYONE to move... I might too.

GE-Raven

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #98 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:52:28 pm »

Maybe if you move everyone else will follow.

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #99 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:54:20 pm »

The simple fact is that as long as there are X ships in the default shiplist many won't come within miles of it.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #100 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:00:39 pm »

therein lies the most (pardon the rudeness) LAME excuse ive ever heard. there is no reason in the world that those people have to use or play with x ships. in fact, even on a server, the FYA can be pushed back so far or simply removed from the shipyard completely - all without having to do a think to the shiplist.

so, it is a very narrowminded and poor excuse. however, i do know that it exsist.

thanks.

Lepton1 · « **Reply #101 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:21:18 pm »

I think there is a rather easy way to settle this point. Sales. How many copies of EAW were sold vs OP. I suspect OP sales were low and encompassed a larger fraction of novices who rarely played it and dumped it considering the low player base for OP. I myself bought OP after having a friend's install of EAW and SFC1 purchased with my own money on my machine for a while which I had gotten out of. I stopped playing OP altogether for just the reasons above, no players, no dyna, X ships BS.

While OP might be "better" because it has more "stuff", I still don't think it has a player base especially if sales were low and new copies are hard to come by. Why hunt around for OP when you already have EAW fully patched with working dyna and consistent player base?

Be that as it may, what has OP really got to offer? Phaser arcs? New ships? Supposed stability? Oh, yes! Pirates! Don't think the whole pirate thing has enough umph, enough meaningful context to be compelling. Look at player race preferences. Most played races are TOS races with feds leading substantially. Throw in some pirates no one has ever heard outside of SFB that are not fully SFB implemented (custumization of ships, etc) and you have a recipe for a yawn.

Doesn't seem like enough to entice me to switch nor most people who have EAW and are comfortable with it. BTW are magic photons still in effect in OP?

Fact is Taldren shot itself in the foot with OP. While they may have had the best intentions, the fiasco ruined any transition to OP.

kosh2000 · « **Reply #102 on:** June 02, 2003, 02:36:37 pm »

pirates not fun i guss you never played on the triangel then and no dyna on op hmm some of the biggest servers where and still are on op .

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #103 on:** June 02, 2003, 04:20:12 pm »

I find myself in agreement with Nanner... this is MOST disconserting!

HAND

FireSoul · « **Reply #104 on:** June 02, 2003, 04:24:15 pm »

Look. I'll let you guys figure it out: I have some testing to do, and then a shiplist to start updating.

-- Luc

CptCastrin · « **Reply #105 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:17:58 pm »

Hmmm, I could write a huge / long post on the pros and cons of both. I started in SFC1 and have played (and admined / hosted) in many online matches and campaigns. However I will refrain.

Sufice it to say it's your call. OP and EaW are great games. IMHO it's OP that wins but understand that's my take.

I will say this however, all the reasons that people have given here as to why they think OP is not worth the effort is just more FUD posting by those "hurt" by Taldren putting out a standalone game instead of an expantion to their first love. The fact is that if this game (OP) HAD been made as an expansion then EaW would have almost completely disapeared as a game. OP uses a new graphics engine and polishes much of the base game mechanics as well as adds some good (and bad) new toys. All that would have replaced the EaW versions thus EaW would have become OP! (However you'd still have those players that would refuse to install it and remain "pure" EaW so the current split would probably still been there, they just wouldn't be such a huge majority.)

I only wish they had made it an expansion, it's a better game and would have closed out EaW by allowing Taldren to drop support instead of forcing them to bow to those that just won't let go. But they didn't ... I wonder if anyone ever thought that maybe that was, by some fluk, by design. Or maybe they should just count their lucky stars that they still have an EaW to play and it was never "expanded" on.

Play OP or EaW as you wish. As for me I'll stick with OP which is a better game IMHO.

mathcubeguy · « **Reply #106 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:32:24 pm »

Can you flip hexes in OP or is that still broken? That was the whole thing I was woried about and should have been what I asked in the first place. Sorry for the trouble...

CptCastrin · « **Reply #107 on:** June 02, 2003, 05:39:16 pm »

Flipping hexes works just fine IF the map is setup correctly. Come out to Tech Wars and see.

We are having a base issue but it doesn't seem to be game related. More likely it's a setting on the server (or a mission problem) but we're working on it. If you are going to come out to Tech Wars be sure and visit www.sfcx.org first and pickup the OP+ and ED Mission packs (in SFC:OP section in Downloads) and "install" them (readmes are included).

Hope to see you out there!

Bonk · « **Reply #109 on:** June 02, 2003, 06:05:12 pm »

So flipping hexes works - if you make all pirate races
non-playable and make all hexes on the cartel map belong
to one cartel which is allied to all empires?
That sounds broken to me.

(Is this the "more complicated" server gf setting that was mentioned? - bah!)

I am currently testing a customised multi-race shiplist on OP and
have just discovered that I do NOT really have 15 races to work with
but only eight, as in EAW, as outlined above. I am going to have to
bump 3 empires from the shiplist (or combine as in SG3) in order
to achieve the desired effect.

I have noticed other issues that I will not outline here that I have never
seen in EAW.

The "Masters Arena" has been running on SQL for some time now.
(Granted it is not popular...) SQL allows me to play on a D2 server
from behind the same router (with loopback) because I can edit my
IP address in the SQL db - allowing me to be drafted properly.
(But one feature of SQL - It will support higher player numbers
but this has NEVER been properly tested - LB3 was our best chance to
test but this was lost.)

FireSoul, does this mean that Arctic has finished his patch and we will
have SQL for the OP D2? Or at least the cartel map will be fixed?

Bonk · « **Reply #111 on:** June 02, 2003, 07:34:10 pm »

Thanks for the tips and pleasant reply Castrin,

Umm, ANYONE who tries to play on a D2 server from behind
the same router will not be able to be drafted unless they can
edit the live db. This is not just my playing issue. You know full well
what other advantages SQL has over the flatfile.

Oh and thanks for your ASSumptions - I never made any comments like this.
Sigh - make a valid point on these forums and your person is attacked - never fails.

OK then, I do not have eight races and eight pirate cartels to work with,
just eight races - there happy? (sufficiently pedantic?).

I have been unable to affect the DV of any hex as a pirate in any way.
I'll let you know when I do. (have tested from three of eight cartels on the stock map)

Thanks again, I'm sure you're really a nice guy that just gets a tad defensive about OP.

Bonk · « **Reply #114 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:05:15 pm »

Well all I know is that if you are local to the D2 server it will see your local IP address
which is useless. Yes, you can be drafted but the mission will count down to zero
as your local IP address cannot be seen from the internet.

So, if I edit my IP address in the DB, drafting will work.

As I understand it, the router has nothing to do with why the D2 server sees the local IP address
an not the WAN address. One public IP address is all I have. If you are local to the D2 server it
will always see the local IP address.

Have you ever run a D2 server (on both the flatfile and SQL) behind the same router as a client?
If so then maybe you can explain this further to me, as the experience would add credibility to your claims.

"This is based on you having a home router that is not fully NAT capable for more than one internal address"
um, why does port forwarding work to multiple internal addresses then?

This is most confusing.

EDIT: I must emphasise that the D2 server sees YOUR LOCAL IP ADDRESS - it does not matter
what port the client responds on if the IP address in the db is a local one, it just will not work.

Edit Again (

): The real question here, as FireSoul has hinted, is, will the cartel map be fixed
in the next patch? Will SQL be added? Is there really another patch for OP coming?

Bonk · « **Reply #116 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:32:34 pm »

Certainly, I am not arguing that it makes the game better,
this sidetrack has led us down the garden path on this thread.

Interesting that obtaining another public IP by PPTP will work,
I hadn't thought of that, but don't have access to such a server anyway.

What I am really interested in is whether OP is going to get another
patch and whether it will fix the cartel map and would it include
support for SQL? (please, pretty please tell me it is so!)

P.S. I always play OP for direct TCP/IP games - originally because of your
shiplist but now because I am doing my best to complete the SFB OP shiplist
started by gman and used by CJ in his UltimateTOS mod for OP.

Bonk · « **Reply #118 on:** June 02, 2003, 11:38:47 pm »

Goody, goody! That is great news! <crosses fingers for SQL>

The_Infiltrator · « **Reply #120 on:** June 03, 2003, 04:43:54 am »

If you want to find out how to run 2 PC's off the same router, ask Doppler. I'm almost certian that he and a buddy do this.

Cleaven · « **Reply #121 on:** June 03, 2003, 05:14:32 am »

It would be very interesting to see this done.

Mog · « **Reply #122 on:** June 03, 2003, 05:44:25 am »

A friend and I managed to connect to the same D2 server at the same time via a router, by using a program called dxport.exe. But, we could not play in the same missions, although we could be drafted into separate missions. That's the best we've managed, but it wasn't enough as we obviously desired to fly together in the same missions, hence my friend gave the game up.

Cleaven · « **Reply #124 on:** June 03, 2003, 07:47:22 am »

How can it work perfectly if you have already said you can't draft properly?

Yes.

Like hell.

And this from somebody called Bonk and registered two weeks ago. Get real.

Bonk · « **Reply #125 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:11:56 am »

Um, by editing the SQL db to show my public IP that's how.

Geez, chill man. I'd still like you to explain your statements.
I am showing you the respect of listening to your views,
please show the same courtesy, thanks.

Cleaven · « **Reply #126 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:19:58 am »

I see the way you use SQL editing of the DB, but that doesn't change how drafting works for standard setups, and would only be useful for a local admin. You may be able to fix the routing for an internal IP depending on the router you have. None of the common home routers work in the same way and several of them don't even allow for the correct functioning of an OP client.

As for chilling, you are obviiosly somebody who has been around here for a bit, and I am very suspicious of your motive for the subterfuge. And I find the name offensive too.

Bonk · « **Reply #127 on:** June 03, 2003, 08:28:15 am »

Ah, thanks so much for the explanation of your comments.

Sorry if the name offends - it's not meant to, if it means something that I have not considered I will post under a new name if you desire. I just picked it at random.

FireSoul · « **Reply #128 on:** June 03, 2003, 09:03:59 am »

Yeah. DXport is interesting, but doesn't solve the problem where every host has a port 47624. SFC uses DX7 code.

.. this has given me an idea and I will experiment with it and my linux 2.4 firewall and some source-based packet mangling. I probably won't succeed, but it's worth the try. If * DO* succeed, I will document here what I had to do. I was not aware of DXPort until today, so I am hopeful now.

-- Luc

edit:
Forget the idea.. I just remembered DX will connect to 47624 to discover what 2300-2400 port to connect to. Since that portforward could only be forwarded to a single machine, the argument is moot. We can't predict which machine will be hosting when taking drafting into account.

Mog · « **Reply #129 on:** June 03, 2003, 10:22:12 am »

Luc, what do you mean by the last bit? Can't predict which machine will be hosting? As it's a LAN we're talking about, the drafter can be determined easily, unless both parties are drafted by a third party.

Going from memory, when we tried this, what happened was both of us had the in-mission screen come up, but only one of us had our ship appear, when drafted by someone else.

FireSoul · « **Reply #130 on:** June 03, 2003, 10:46:54 am »

Port 47624 is kinda like a management port. It can only be forwarded to 1 machine. usually the pre-designated host for a direct-IP game. Since drafting isn't too keen on that.. and the host is the person draftign all the time, it wouldn't work.

Unless there's somethign else I'm missing here, of course.
-- Luc

AFortius · « **Reply #131 on:** June 04, 2003, 09:25:45 pm »

With all these arguments, I am sort of swayed to pick up a copy of OP. I am playing exclusively EAW in D2 (SG3). But it seems that I will give OP a try. Any OP campaign going-on right now ala SG3?

- AF

FireSoul · « **Reply #132 on:** June 04, 2003, 10:07:03 pm »

TechWars is still ongoing, but it was.. well..
.. everyone's playing on SG3 except for a very small group. Bleh!

.. I hope Techwars is restarted after SG3 is over. I was having fun.

Bonk · « **Reply #133 on:** June 05, 2003, 07:23:47 am »

It seems we only have enough players for one good sized server at a time.
I think that the "ISC Invasion" is next up on EAW and will also draw a crowd.
Perhaps OP admins could join in with the EAW admins in scheduling the servers
to get the best crowds?

Mog · « **Reply #134 on:** June 05, 2003, 08:28:13 am »

That's the intention, Bonk, however, when the current schedule was arranged, the OP patch hadn't been released - it kinda came as a bit of a surprise, and no rescheduling has been done yet, hence all OP has currently are small servers to keep it going, so to speak.

FireSoul · « **Reply #135 on:** June 05, 2003, 09:45:47 am »

However, continued work will ensure OP's place in the future. With any luck, it will prove to the D2 community that OP is indeed viable.

.. hm.. especially if they play on EAW server for so long that another OP patch would come out and fix all the rest of the issues. That probably won't happen, but it's an interesting thought.

FireSoul · « **Reply #137 on:** June 05, 2003, 01:16:55 pm »

That was well formulated, dogmatix. Very well said.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #138 on:** June 05, 2003, 04:41:49 pm »

Yes, to be correct, the SFB, or X1 ships in OP are pretty close to SFB specs in most cases, but the X2 ships, the "Taldren X ships" are total abortions. They look like the things you used to make in SFB groups for a team of ships to attack.

Silly indeed. Keep it up FS, you really oughta get PAID for the massive amount of work you do and the even LARGER amount of crap you take for doing it!

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #139 on:** June 06, 2003, 01:39:35 am »

Well..

.. I *LIKE* this game. .. and I'm hoping I get every possible chance to make it better. You can bet that if I end up making a difference, I got paid in a different way.

.. and trust me on this: SFC:OP's not dead. Not by far. The work continues so that playtime becomes better.

-- Luc

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #140 on:** June 06, 2003, 04:01:53 pm »

Well, EAW IS dead for me, has been since about 1 minute prior to the installation of OP, since I deleted EAW for an identical, but improved game.

Stand-alone expansion, HAH!

HAND!

FireSoul · « **Reply #142 on:** June 06, 2003, 05:22:53 pm »

It happens that I need info on those exact bugs. I think these were posted in the OLD forums at some point, but ..

.. anyways, like in the D2 Experiences forum for the thread that's asking for data.

-- Luc

FireSoul · « **Reply #144 on:** June 09, 2003, 05:31:55 pm »

You do realize, now that it is know there is going to be another patch, that people's opinions may have to change on this subject? Once the OP patch is out, I'll let people decide for themselves what they think is best, tho.

-- Luc

FireSoul · « **Reply #146 on:** June 10, 2003, 08:27:50 pm »

Then I hope you will try OP again after the next patch. The speed bug has been squashed in 2538. Other D2 bugs are being squashed for this next patch. OP will be be-au-ti-ful after this.

-- Luc

Wolf2525 · « **Reply #148 on:** June 10, 2003, 08:40:07 pm »

After reading all this, I'm really glad I was able to locate a copy. I really don't know why I didn't buy it when it first came out. I kinda regret that now, especially with how much fun EAW has become since I dusted it off. Still haven't played much online yet, with either EAW or SFCIII, but have been having an absolute blast even in the single player campaigns.

Cleaven · « **Reply #149 on:** June 10, 2003, 09:33:54 pm »

It would be cool to create a simple way to install the new modded D2 missions into the the single player EAW for OP campaigns, esp the ones using the config files. There are a lot of people who have never experienced them because editing .gf files is not their cup of tea.

<I don't mean as part of the patch>

News:

Topic: EAW or OP, which is better when fully patched? (Read 16027 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

mathcubeguy

Tommy20

Scipio_66

FireSoul

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FireSoul

The_Infiltrator

FireSoul

kosh2000

FireSoul

**DONOTDELETE**

FireSoul

Magnum357

EmeraldEdge

EmeraldEdge

FireSoul

T-Rex_IEA

Cleaven

FireSoul

Cleaven

NannerSlug

3dot14

GE-Raven

jimmi7769

The_Infiltrator

NannerSlug

Lepton1

kosh2000

**DONOTDELETE**

FireSoul

CptCastrin

mathcubeguy

CptCastrin

Cleaven

Bonk

CptCastrin

Bonk

FireSoul

Cleaven

Bonk

FireSoul

Bonk

FireSoul

Bonk

Cleaven

The_Infiltrator

Cleaven

Mog

Bonk

Cleaven

Bonk

Cleaven

Bonk

FireSoul

Mog

FireSoul

AFortius

FireSoul

Bonk

Mog

FireSoul

Dogmatix!

FireSoul

**DONOTDELETE**

FireSoul

**DONOTDELETE**

Scipio_66

FireSoul

Dogmatix!

FireSoul

Julin Eurthyr

FireSoul

FireSoul

Wolf2525

Topic: EAW or OP, which is better when fully patched? (Read 16027 times)

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