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Off Topic => Holodeck => Topic started by: Captain Adam on December 30, 2015, 09:35:43 am

Title: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Captain Adam on December 30, 2015, 09:35:43 am
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Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: d4v1ks on December 30, 2015, 10:24:37 am
Well, 1 million is no joke.
Its a shame, but they are the legal owners of the franchise.
They should had been clear since the start and not allow they reach such point.
Now with everything ready they got greedy, cause of the money raised...
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on December 30, 2015, 11:04:29 am
I'm extremely saddened by this, although it is the other shoe dropping that all fan endeavours, from Axanar on down to a game like ours, have feared. Star Trek is owned by a corporation. That said, your idea of a boycott/letter campaign is correct Adam, and a way for fans to speak up. There's a few myths built around the somewhat apocryphal letter campaing in 1968 that "saved" ST, but boycotts and bad PR can work sometimes.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TarMinyatur on December 30, 2015, 11:10:47 am
Huh? It doesn't matter if a fan-funded movie has $5000 or $5,000,000. We, as free American citizens, have the right to create stories based on our cultural heritage, including Star Trek. We cannot sell these stories (movies, books, music, etc.) because of copyright protection. That is a reasonable restriction. As long as the Axanar Works are freely distributed and give credit to Roddenberry, Paramount, and other intellectual property owners, there shouldn't be a problem.

The courts should dismiss this paranoid lawsuit. Paramount and CBS do not own our culture. These companies cannot stop us from creating non-commercial derivatives. Perhaps they need to make better movies if they're actually worried about becoming irrelevant in the future of Star Trek. 
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: d4v1ks on December 30, 2015, 11:13:17 am
Perhaps they need to make better movies if they are actually worried about becoming irrelevant in the future of Star Trek.

Well said!
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on December 30, 2015, 12:18:43 pm
I wish you were right Tar but yours is common misinterpretation of copyright law and, as the owners of Star trek, CBS is well within their legal rights to protect said copyright. This is hardly a "frivolous" lawsuit that will be thrown out nor is Axanar truly a free-speech case, whether they charge a penny or not. Axanar borrows too heavily from the source and cannot be considered parody or commentary so there is little protection for it from the often-quoted-but-usually-misunderstood "Fair Use" component of copyright law. I am by no means a lawyer but I run into copyright in my work, and five minutes of research highlights for me the problems the Axanar team faces:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/ (http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/)

https://www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/basics/fairuse_rules.html (https://www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/basics/fairuse_rules.html)

The chances of the Axanar team receiving a sympathetic judge is on the low side for sure. IMO, there is a better chance of fans like us making this a PR nightmare for CBS by complaining, loudly. Start pushing on all your social media accounts, complain loudly, using the hashtag #IstandwithAxanar

As "free" as we are, we live in a capitalist society dominated by corporations, and they have most of the lawyers...
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 30, 2015, 01:26:22 pm
I doubt there will be any money returned, nor are they legally obliged to do so. Oh well, I've spent more and gotten less before. To paraphrase the franchise of the other evil empire:"I had a bad feeling about this." Those morons can't even see the gift horse, let alone look it in the mouth.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: ObsidianShiar on December 30, 2015, 01:38:58 pm
A company sitting on money hoards wants more and bugs fans for more. No news here, basically.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 30, 2015, 01:42:31 pm
A company sitting on money hoards wants more and bugs fans for more. No news here, basically.

That's the point, if they officially licensed it as an alternate/original universe franchise everyone could win big. Gee, an alternate universe. I wonder where I've seen that before just recently, like in 2009...
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 30, 2015, 02:51:31 pm
Well good then. Nerd rage power deactivated!!!! They actually do see it as a valuable property, they just don't want to encourage outright legal issues by "participating".

(https://simpsonswiki.com/w/images/a/aa/Comic_Book_Guy_Spock_Tapped_Out.png)




EDIT: Wait a second. Adam that piece was posted months ago. Things may have changed.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 30, 2015, 03:27:03 pm
Here's something current about a FB post at the bottom of the article:

http://www.treknews.net/2015/12/30/paramount-cbs-lawsuit-axanar/ (http://www.treknews.net/2015/12/30/paramount-cbs-lawsuit-axanar/)

Quote
Well, it appears CBS knows that Axanar is exactly what fans want, because they are trying to shut us down! While Team Axanar will have a response shortly, know this DOES NOT deter us from what we are doing! Delivering to fans exactly what you want.
 Goliath, meet David (and his thousands of screaming fans)!
‪#‎IstandwithAxanar



And the actual complaint:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2660454-Startreklawsuit.html (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2660454-Startreklawsuit.html)

They are going to fight them. I see a push for more donations coming!  ;)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 30, 2015, 03:40:53 pm
I just read the complaint. They are actually demanding a trial by jury. That might backfire on them.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TarMinyatur on December 30, 2015, 04:54:31 pm
Quote from: TAnimaL
This is hardly a "frivolous" lawsuit that will be thrown out nor is Axanar truly a free-speech case, whether they charge a penny or not. Axanar borrows too heavily from the source and cannot be considered parody or commentary so there is little protection for it from the often-quoted-but-usually-misunderstood "Fair Use" component of copyright law.

As "free" as we are, we live in a capitalist society dominated by corporations, and they have most of the lawyers...

The First Amendment is at the heart of this issue from my perspective. If I write a novel about Kirk and Spock and welcome the general American public to read it, nobody has the authority to confiscate or interfere with my work unless I'm selling it or harming the IP owners' revenues. The sale of this book would clearly challenge Paramount's copyright and could be considered theft of intellectual property. But Paramount does not own our culture. They have been granted temporary copyrights that allow them to profit from their labors and assets. Afterwards, other entities can profit from Tribbles, Romulans, Vulcans, and Klingons if they choose to do so, or remain non-commercial. This is constitutional (USA):

Quote from: JamesMadison
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
 

"limited Times"... Is 50 years of Trek enough? Of course, corporations will NEVER allow their copyrights to expire. The citizens of the USA, through their representatives in government, must enforce the temporary nature of copyrights.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on December 30, 2015, 05:55:39 pm
OK, here's a thought I've had in recent months, since I've been following the Axanar updates which are posted almost daily.

Alec Peters has used some of the proceeds from the kickstarters and such to build an (independent) movie studio.  Axanar Productions as a studio has become a pretty extensive facility, with the most recent addition being construction of one of the largest green screens outside of Hollywood proper.

So while they may not be earning a profit from the movie itself, the props, facilities, etc. that they are building can be used to generate a profit for other endeavors, and it's pretty obvious to me that Alec is thinking beyond Axanar based on some statements he's made in recent months.  As such, it could be argued that the Axanar team is, in effect, profiting from use of the Star Trek copyright.


That being said, I think that CBS's long history of allowing fan productions does call this matter somewhat into question.  Why should only Axanar be targetted, but not other productions, i.e. selective enforcement of the copyright?  It is CBS's copyright, but if they are going to draw the line with Axanar, then really all other Trek related fan efforts should be addressed as well.

Myself, I think that CBS would be wise to settle with the Axanar team on some sort of 'use of copyright' agreement.  This could turn Axanar into a for profit venture, but then both sides could benefit (CBS could then share the revenues generated with Axanar studios).  Sure, Axanar is the 'infringing party', and Alec has made several efforts to negotiate in good faith with CBS (at least according to the press releases I've read), but I think that the CBS legal team would do better by setting some reasonable terms for 'use of copyright' rather than shutting this down entirely.

Of course, movie studios aren't noted for making the best decisions, and we have plenty of examples of things in 'copyright limbo' because the rights to some game or something can't be secured or even in some cases clearly established.  So, I'm not overly optimistic about Alec Peter's chances to move forward on this.  I do hope that an arrangement can be reached, because at this point that is the best chance for Axanar to move forward.

We saw Enterprise killed off by Paramount (just when it was getting interesting), because they chose to terminate the series instead of allowing the production to move to Canada at a much cheaper cost to produce.  There was a proposal on the table to do exactly that, but because Paramount studios wouldn't be doing the production in Hollywood, that proposal died a quick death.  Since they didn't think it could be profitable enough/generate the numbers they wanted if they continued to do it onsite, they killed Enterprise off.

MGM understood this very well with the Stargate franchise by doing the production in Canada, which is why Stargate was so long lived I'm sure.  With 10 seasons, plus movies and several spin-offs (5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis, and the short-lived SGU, oh and wasn't there a cartoon too?), the Stargate license did very well for MGM.

So yeah, CBS/Paramount making this move now doesn't surprise me, but it'll take a herculean effort by the fans to change the course CBS is now on.  Time to make some noise!

My two cents, anyways...
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on December 30, 2015, 06:52:08 pm
I'm hoping the effort won't need to be truly herculean, we just need to be vocal. This is not the time to lie down with a "meh," saying "I'll miss my Trek". There are no doubt far more intricacies to this CBS/Axanar feud than any of us know or can guess at, but what we can do is complain. Loudly, and more importantly, publicly. I do not know why CBS is going after Axanar, maybe they crossed a line somewhere, but CBS could do this with any fan product, from "ST:Phase II" all the way down the food chain to something that could affect us here. We know CBS is being the bad guys here, time to let other know that too.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: knightstorm on December 30, 2015, 07:32:29 pm
I could just freeze myself and wake up when Star Trek lapses into the public domain. ;D
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 31, 2015, 01:16:19 am
Freezing won't help you. Disney already broke the public domain system when their property was going into free use territory by getting their rights extended. It was the beginning of the end of PD as we know it.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on December 31, 2015, 07:31:16 am
Axanar productions has an 'official' comment on their webpage:

http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-dec-30th-2015/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-dec-30th-2015/)

Reading through the Ars Technica and TrekBBS comments, yeah this is going to be an uphill battle.  The perks that the Axanar team has been offering for donations won't help their case.

Again, CBS needs to be made to understand that moving this production under their wing is in their best interest, by working out an arrangement whereby Axanar becomes a 'sanctioned production'.  Essentially CBS, in association with Axanar Productions or some such.  I do think that the case does need to move forward, as Alec has really stretched some assumptions here, but I don't think they should kill the production altogether, just work out a mutual arrangement.

As pointed out above, the jury trial does open up some possibilities, but at the end of the day it's still CBS's copyright and they get to choose where and when to enforce that copyright.

I don't see any harm whatsoever with Axanar coiming out in 2016, as this will simply generate more interest in Trek.  CBS needs to get onboard so they can really get their gravy train rolling.  Marvel Studios has benefitted greatly by putting multiple franchises onscreen, and at this point we are seeing 2-3 Marvel related movies onscreeen every year (We get 4 Marvel related movies in 2016, and four more in 2017!).  All three 2015 Marvel movies didn't do badly.  Ant-Man grossed 517 Million Worldwide, and Fantastic Four only grossed about $168 Milllion worldwide.  So even their less impressive efforts are crossing the $100 million mark.

CBS/Paramount should take note, and embrace the 2-3 movies a year model.  Sure, most of the fan prodcutions aren't truly up to studio level, but those that are close (Axanar, Renegades) should probably be embraced, as one offs if nothing else.  Worst case is they get shunned, and if an independent studio is fronting the bill then CBS isn't out any money if they don't do as well, plus the independendt movie production costs will allow for a much larger margin for error (i.e. even if it only grosses $25 million, everybody still wins).
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on December 31, 2015, 07:39:06 am
In addition to the #IstandwithAxanar I think #NoAxanarNoBeyond is good hash...whatever...  I can't believe I'm actually considering doing something with the Twits? Tweets?  whatever... too old for this stuff...
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Tulwar on December 31, 2015, 10:41:14 am
"limited Times"... Is 50 years of Trek enough? Of course, corporations will NEVER allow their copyrights to expire. The citizens of the USA, through their representatives in government, must enforce the temporary nature of copyrights.

The problem is that our Congress and the EU have been trying to take the concept of copyright and patent into perpetuity.  That is, whomever has intellectual property rights is free to collect rents while producing nothing.  In the case of the owners of the ST franchise, I'd have to rephrase that to be "nothing of value."

Were the Congress of the United States, and the governing bodies of the EU responsive to democratic forces, these protections would be directed at protecting artists, rather than corporations.  As it is, properties, like ST are going to become less valuable, as the owners can't do much more with them than mock the audience.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 31, 2015, 11:13:12 am
Axanar productions has an 'official' comment on their webpage:
[url]http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-dec-30th-2015/[/url] ([url]http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-dec-30th-2015/[/url])


I'm glad they are optimistic and are planning to go ahead, but when the judge slaps an injunction on them and CBS/Paramount holds them up in court for years it can die a slow death without ever being settled. If you don't believe me just research the guy who actually invented television and what RCA did to him even after he won his case.



Quote
I don't see any harm whatsoever with Axanar coiming out in 2016, as this will simply generate more interest in Trek.  CBS needs to get onboard so they can really get their gravy train rolling. 


Yeah, this is the part I don't get. CBS needs to remember Event Television. You market it as a one shot event movie, using all the media outlets to let fans and other people know that this is before the timeline change in ST2009, so it doesn't mess with anything in their new format. I can see the tag line now: Before Kirk, before Spock, there were heroes that shaped the Federation forever... queue dramatic music. What kind of chowder heads do they have working for them anyway? That took me all of fifteen seconds to think up.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on December 31, 2015, 02:45:04 pm
It has a lot to do with the way the legal system works.  You HAVE to take action as soon as you find out, other wise the first question that gets asked is, why did you wait so long?  You can never answer that question satisfactorily.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on December 31, 2015, 03:32:38 pm
That's why the jury decision might blow up in their faces. Usually in civil court you only need nine out of twelve people to agree on a decision. They have taken a laissez faire attitude up until now and a jury may feel they should have acted sooner. The fact that Axanar is in uncharted territory by Paramount is also a good thing as they can't really claim it damages their property directly.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on December 31, 2015, 06:37:08 pm
While I'm not in the head of the executives (or the lawyers... I'm still sane) that made this decision.  If reports are true that the Axanar producer has plans to do other stuff (for profit) after Axanar with the money that he got for Axanar.  That's where CBS has the problem, and that's why they didn't hit up Renegades or Continues, or Phase II.  You can't tell me that the people at CBS didn't know Axanar wasn't under production until just now, not with some pretty big veteran Star Trek actors in it.  My take on it was that the arrangement with Axanar was probably the same kind of arrangement CBS had with Dynaverse regarding SFC4... Do it, but don't make any money on it.  If the reports are true, what does that say for CBS with SFC4?  This guy may have just blown it for all of us.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FPF-Tobin Dax on January 01, 2016, 09:57:41 am
CBS served C&D to a garage kit model manufacturer 2 weeks ago. Dude was just one of many who made star trek resin models that weren't available anywhere else in limited amounts. Was he singled out or will more garage kitters get hit?
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Javora on January 01, 2016, 10:20:26 am
The use of the sets after Axanar is a non issue.  It is not specifically claimed in the lawsuit that Axanar sets was built for the purpose of making a profit after the completion of Axanar.  The suit is specific that the defendants are making a profit from the sale of Axanar itself, not some vague future plans on other projects.  If Paramount wanted to make that claim then the company should have done that in the initial suit. 

For me the timing is suspect, and that could be why Axanar producer is asking for a jury trial.  Axanar has gotten a lot of positive buzz, a lot more than the other fan made Trek projects.  I think this is more about Paramount pouncing on the real competition to clear away any noise or comparison to their own series that they want to produce soon.  The timing is really suspect, this happened just a couple of months after Paramount/CBS made the announcement about the new Trek series.  It would have took that long for the attorneys to prepare the legal work.  I think if Paramount would have pounced on all the fan made Trek it would have backfired with the fans...  Trek fans no less. 

For me that means boycotting Star Trek Beyond and boycotting the series in 2017.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FPF-Tobin Dax on January 01, 2016, 10:35:57 am
Was he profiting from it. Were they his own designs. There's this guy on BC forums who makes his own designs and also makes resins for some of the fans of his work. Don't know if he charges but this is getting out of control. What are these retards going to do in the future. Btwn the Internet, new tech like 3D printers etc, it's going to be quite difficult to tell people what they can and can not do. Ridiculous. Did the guy make millions off the 3D printing. Lmao

I'd send a letter back telling them to kill themselves, here! I printed you a Japanese sword, now do the world a favor and kill yourself, please!

Ehhhh. Soon I'll get one too for personal modding, maybe bc I screenshot the game. When my phone says red alert when I'm getting a phone call should I run and hide too.

Most garage kitters profit some. How much though? Similar to Axanar, where is the line drawn? There are a lot of little companies making resin star trek and star wars and star gate models and so on, they largely continue unaffected while just a few get C&Ds.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Tulwar on January 01, 2016, 05:56:24 pm
The solution is quite obvious.  Remember, the entire ST franchise is only valuable because of "Trekkies."  The studios made that a derogatory term, because they didn't understand the ST fan, and still don't.  We just have to remind the studio that it's "trekker" by not buying their crap.  That's right, boycott.

A franchise is only as valuable as its ability to sell products and services.  I personally think that we should have started a boycott with the JJ Abrams film.  Come to think of it, I didn't watch ST Into Dumbness, I mean Darkness, until 2 years after it came out, and it was on Netflix.

This is something that owners of intellectual property forget.  If nobody wants it, it isn't worth defending.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 02, 2016, 08:50:14 am
The one thing that Axanar Productions has been doing, that is quite different from the other fan made efforts, is offering materials (such as the DVD, not to mention a model of the D6 apparently).  They claim that these are simply perks, but especially in the case of the models, well the D6 is heavily based on the D7, and I doubt that it is significantly different in any real sense from what we've seen on the screen already.  Hence, you can easily make the argument that Axanar's D6 should be a licensed derivative, instead of a 'freebie'.  That 'freebie' has a cost associated with it (i.e. donate at this level, get the model), and it could be argued that since Paramount licenses other models and miniatures, and even computer models based on Star Trek designs, that this should be too.
 
The ONE thing that allows ADB to get away with as much as they do is that most of the ships in the SFB universe have never appeared onscreen, and ADB secured a license for the rest.  The Hydrans, Lyrans, Andromedans, and ISC are ADB copyrights, not CBS/Paramount's.  Yet they seem to fit right in as far as I'm concerned.

I'm all about doing the hashtag thing to get CBS/Paramount onboard with Axanar, and Renegades for that matter.  I'm guessing that the CBS execs aren't interested in splitting the pie between themselves and these efforts (they'd rather have their own pie).  They need to be convinced, as I've mentioned before, that Axanar and Renegades are stories worth seeing, and that everyone benefits if they can come to a mutual arrangement.

The other fan efforts have been smart enough to not offer 'perks' up to this point, at least as far as I've seen (one of them did have 'official fabric' that they made available to costumers 'at cost', because they had to get a textile factory to do a special run so they could make pillowcases and such that were similar to what we saw in TOS).  Axanar did, and although Alec has talked to CBS a few times now, well no official license was secured, so I wish them luck going into the future.

I was REALLY looking forward to Axanar, btw, and hope they can work it out in an amicable manner.  The story should be told.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on January 02, 2016, 10:26:47 am
Actually, most fan productions were doing the same things to raise money, vis-a-vis selling posters, or art-covered DVD cases that came with a "free" copy of their film (I have several). And Trekkies have been pumping out fan-made not-licensed items since 1967. In the fallow years of the early 70s it was almost the only ST we had and it continued all the way to now - the "dealer's rooms" at most ST/scfi cons are packed with them. It does seem that most of the current fan ST films like renegades, Farragut and Phase II aren't doing that anymore and are just asking for donations, so perhaps there has been a sea change at CBS/Paramount.

The ONE REAL thing that allows ADB to continue is not their "SFU" of Hydrans, Lyrans, et al, but the fact ADB got it's initial  license through Franz Joseph Designs and their publication of the ST Technical Manual, which itself has a complicated "separate" license. ADB all but shut down in the mid 90s due to a lawsuit from Paramount that was finally resolved in something ADB refers to as "The Deal"  of which few details are known but alloweed them to re-continue publication.

Maybe it was tha mount Axanar raised, maybe it's the timing of a new TV series. Maybe they even want to use that timeframe themselves
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 03, 2016, 11:05:44 am
Actually, most fan productions were doing the same things to raise money, vis-a-vis selling posters, or art-covered DVD cases that came with a "free" copy of their film (I have several). And Trekkies have been pumping out fan-made not-licensed items since 1967. In the fallow years of the early 70s it was almost the only ST we had and it continued all the way to now - the "dealer's rooms" at most ST/scfi cons are packed with them. It does seem that most of the current fan ST films like renegades, Farragut and Phase II aren't doing that anymore and are just asking for donations, so perhaps there has been a sea change at CBS/Paramount.

The ONE REAL thing that allows ADB to continue is not their "SFU" of Hydrans, Lyrans, et al, but the fact ADB got it's initial  license through Franz Joseph Designs and their publication of the ST Technical Manual, which itself has a complicated "separate" license. ADB all but shut down in the mid 90s due to a lawsuit from Paramount that was finally resolved in something ADB refers to as "The Deal"  of which few details are known but alloweed them to re-continue publication.

Maybe it was tha mount Axanar raised, maybe it's the timing of a new TV series. Maybe they even want to use that timeframe themselves

As I noted, Axanar is treading deep into licensing territory for some of their 'perks' (The D6 model being a rather aggregious one).  It's one thing to market an original piece of artwork (your DVD cover), quite another to offer other merchandise that IS in licensing territory.

Also, as I noted before (and as you pointed out), ADB DID secure a license for use of the Star Trek copyright, for the stuff that is directly tied to Star Trek.  The ADB license is complicated, but is a license nonetheless, and I won't pretend to know all of the details r.e the parties involved in the current license at this point.  And yes, I know that at some point Steve Cole chose to draw the line at the Star Fleet Technical manual (hence the name Star Fleet Battles, not Star Trek Battles), before the movie releases (pocket expansion 1 aside, the said X ships in that expansion were inspired by ST:TMP, let's be fair - the Klingon X Cruisers even had photons -3 FA and 1 RA - if I remember correctly in that expansion).

On an rather unrelated note, does anyone remember when ship explosions in SFB (circa Designer Edition) occasionally caused cascade explosions, back when the explosion radii were much larger?  I still remember a particular instance in one of our own games where I saw a PF flotilla get almost completely decimated thanks to said chain reaction of explosions (PF is destroyed, nearby PF blows up, another nearby PF blows up...) said explosions were rather lethal r.e. fighter squadrons as well.  Stacking in Designer Edition was sometimes a very bad  idea...

Another licensing example involving the Franz Joseph legacy is of course Star Fleet Battle Manual.  Quite the fun game in it's own right... Don't get hit by the first Plasma template!
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 04, 2016, 03:59:47 am
Well, CNN picked the story up, so we are getting major news outlet coverage. They are actually giving Axanar a publicity boost with this.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/12/31/media/star-trek-axanar-cbs-paramount/index.html?iid=SF_LN (http://money.cnn.com/2015/12/31/media/star-trek-axanar-cbs-paramount/index.html?iid=SF_LN)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Tulwar on January 04, 2016, 12:33:47 pm
It's better, better actors, better action, better writing and it's made for the fans. They are upset, naturally but like I said they only making it more difficult for themselves bc ain't no Trekkie going to pay/subscribe to the 2017 series after they demolish Axanar. They are better off coming to a mutual compromise with Peter and help in developing this, that will ensure loyalty to fans and be pennies for them.

You're exactly right.  Fan made material is artistically stagnant, being confined to within the artistic styles and story line of the studio work, but has a great deal of room to meet fan expectations.  The studios would love to hand the franchise off to a new director that would do something completely new, but Paramount had already put the franchise in the hands of a vandal.  The only way that the studio executives can imagine Jar Jar Abrams is a good director is by consuming their own promotional material.  The new SW movie really confirms that Abrams is makes crap.  High level fan made material is the only true safe bet.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 04, 2016, 07:08:44 pm
David Gerrold has weighed in...
http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-1/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-1/)

I like his suggestion of mirroring the Lucasfilm 'support' system for fan films.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on January 05, 2016, 11:44:11 am
I really liked Gerrold's article and his idea.

As a fun tangent on the SFB ship explosions:
 in the Commander's ed. (D5.0) there was this formula to figure out explosions strengths based on remaining weapons & power at explosion, OR based on 1/3 the ships original numbers, plus any missiles, tbombs, shuttles (Eschelon, you might be thinking of the Commander's Edition (1982-1998) rather than the more basic rule in Designer's (35.0),  but I only have the initial rules of the Designer Edition, so maybe explosions were increased in the Expansion Rules too). End result was a much bigger explosion that was applied to the adjacent hex, 3/4 to 2 hexes away, 1/2 to 3 hexes away, and triggered explosions were added to the initial. So....

One day (at a tournament I think) an out-numbered Romulan fleet faced a superior Klingon fleet. The Rom flew a fully armed and loaded ROC into the middle of the Klinks, who got excited to capture it (worth more victory points) and swarmed all around it. The ROC self-destructed, and the resulting explosion(s) took out the entire Klink fleet and left the Roms victorious.

Needless to say, there was quite the uproar, and I mean "magic photons" arguments are trivial by comparison. The makers of SFB felt it "wrong" and outlawed by reducing the explosion strength to a line item in the charts, rationalizing it that the "Romulan High Command" (or any Admiralty) would never sacrifice a DN in such a manner since they take years to build. There are some who might view it otherwise, a clever move in a desperate situation not too unlike the Yorktown in the battle of Midway. (To be fair, SFB battles are notoriously "un-connected" to repercussions,  and players are prone to bend/push the rules.) The Captain's Rules also limit the range of the explosion to 1 at best.

It is these reduced explosions strengths that were used in the SFC series. I've always thought that one day I'd experiment on seeing if SFC just uses the explosion strength form the shiplist or whether missiles/t-bombs are added in or not. Another fun experiment would be to dramatically increase the explosion strengths, just to see what would happen.  :D
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 05, 2016, 01:30:04 pm
I was indeed referring to Designer's Edition (hence the note about Expansion 1, once we went to Commander''s edition the 'pocket Expansions' went away in favor of supplements).  And the associated explosion radiii (multiple hexes).  Hence my reference to not stacking, although even being adjacent could be a major issue.  Picking a weak target in an enemy formation to 'pop off', causing damage to nearby ships was a tactic our group loved to take advantage of in those days.  Ten ship formations often had more than enough firepower available to make a frigate go boom, even at range...

And, interesting bit of trivia, Expansion 1 did call PFs Pseudo Fighters, not Fast Patrol Ships.  The nomenclature was changed sometime after (pocket) Expansion 1 was released.

Ahh, the old days!

This is all waaaaay off topic though.  Still rooting for a compromise on Axanar!
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 06, 2016, 12:14:47 am
TanimaL,

In thinking about things further, we may have been gaming with the 'Boxed/Designer's Edition' expansions, with the just released Commander's edition core rulebook.  It's been decades, so you may be right TanimaL.  Apologies for any confusion I may have caused... thanks for quoting the relevant rules!  Having those Over The Top larger explosion radii/effects in SFC would make for a rather interesting game... or a different game at least.

I enjoy your posts, and thanks for looking that up for us!

Eschelon

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FPF-Tobin Dax on January 06, 2016, 11:00:43 am
http://wrathofdhanprops.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-axanar-bunker-when-things-fall-down.html (http://wrathofdhanprops.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-axanar-bunker-when-things-fall-down.html)

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: d4v1ks on January 06, 2016, 11:34:41 am
[url]http://wrathofdhanprops.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-axanar-bunker-when-things-fall-down.html[/url] ([url]http://wrathofdhanprops.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-axanar-bunker-when-things-fall-down.html[/url])


Fun, but sad to watch.. :/
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Khemaraa on January 07, 2016, 02:10:21 am
Just slogged through the above mentioned Blog, I get that this guys doesn't Like Alex Peters that much..and that Alex Peters doesn't care much for him in return. I've also been digging around the net for any other sources of info.  There is NOTHING out there.... Motor mouths who are typically "in the Know" aren't talk'n.   

I like what I see in Axanar so much so that I've been doodling, scribbling etc for the last several months of an Axanar/4 years war package of ships and historical mission  (which I cant do yet dammit, I need to actually see Axanar first!)  for use with SFC-III.

I don't know what the real story is... I don't think any of us are going to know until  the matter is settled by the court...and maybe not even then.. CBS is well known for demanding gag orders from judges.       

I find the time line of things very well, interesting...  Star trek Renegades finishes up and is released.  And CBS annouces finally there will be a new Trek series, and then days later.. (really only days later) bring suit against Peters and Axanar Productions.

   I though Renegades was ok.. Not steller by any means, but decent... I felt like I was watching a modern Startrek show.   Not a movie, but a 'sode of an on going series.  Axanar how ever is a different mind set.. Its a stand alone movie.   And if Prelude to Axanar is any indication, of very high quality.

I don't think its about Alex Peters paying him self,  If it is, it can be easily corrected... very easily.. Alex, put the money back.. its not yours!

I'm not a conspiricy nut by any means, but the timing is suspicious.  Have any other fan productions suddenly had CBS poking into what they are doing?  I do think that Axanar is now seen by CBS as a threat.   I'm not sure why.  I can speculate, but information to speculate with is a bit thin
right yet.  What I do know is that  for several years CBS has been hands off on fan  Trek based productions other then your not allowed to make money.    If some folks getting a salary at AP is an issue.  They could have simply threatened suit if it wasn't corrected.    And who knows?  May they did, and maybe Alex Peters got snotty about it when instead he should have back down and caved. (or his knickers are in even worse of a twist because the money he paid him self has all ready been spent.    It depends on what he was paying himself for...  and possibly a bad use of langauge... If he paid him self to recoup out of pocket expenses related to the production of Axanar, that's a legitimate reason, though I do understand that there is typically a limit of how much can be recouped.  Pretty sure Axanar is set up as a 401-c3 not for for profit LLP.  And That means there is a board.. and if Alex got paid, then the board approved it.  How ever for Alex to get paid he s far as I know, is not permitted to sit on the Board.   That's one of those hard and fast rules that you don't break, ever.  Employees can be paid in a 402-c3,  bosses cannot.  Bosses how ever can submit expense reports and have funds dispensed by the 401-c3 board to cover them. 

I am not a lawyer, however I have sat the board several of 401-c3's over the last couple decades.  And in one case closing a 401-c3 down because of malfesence on the part of a previous board member that screwed things up so badly that it killed a well funded non profit (it was mess, and I don't talk about it)

So.. CBS is not a  white knight coming to save the IP from a bad person though.. their motive has always been about the bottom line and their profits. (they have been known to make Ferrengi look good from time to time)

It could be as simple as "Kill Axanar... we don't want to risk having our new show compared to it"  (hey, humans are intelligent creatures, but no one said they were smart!).  We have seen over the years many examples of amazing short sided-ness on the part of the big networks.  Especially when it comes to Science Fiction of any kind.  A more recent example everyone can relate to is FOX networks handling of  Joss Wheadons Firefly. That show was awesome and it was killed before its first season actually ended.  A least he was able to do the Serenity movie which brought a closure to the story line a few years later.  Recall that AC Nielson lied to NBC about the original series ratings (always found it difficult to believe that no one at NBC knew they were being lied to...someone at the NBC colluded.  Likely several someones. Not that NBC was doing that great of a job promoting the series.. Science Fiction scared em.. to Most of em Science Fiction ment monster movies which explains a great deal about what happened with season 3 with its Monster of the week, and inevitable tragic death of some nameless ensign in the opening teaser.

(insert long drawn out sigh)

So my question, and the only one I think that is really important is why CBS is doing this now. And why are they acting against precendents that they them selves have set?  I'm just not buying that CBS is acting in the publics interest.  That's just not something they do. and a law suit about it seems a bit over the top.  I've also seen no indication from any source that CBS made any effort to seek a correction before filing suit with the court. This would tend to be something CBS would release a press report on.  Instead the first thing we the public heard about this was from Alex peters and Axanar Productions, not from CBS.

Suspicious?  When looked at for a whole picture, You bet Your Ass! I am biased toward Axanar Production not being in the wrong, and having possibly erred through inexperience and omission, and making a correctable mistake, and CBS knee jerking on this for reasons having nothing to do with Peters taking pay.   I'm willing to believe other wise, but I feel the burden of proof is going to have to be on CBS, if they are going to act against a fairly long standing precedent that they them selves established.   And the simple fact of the first the public hearing about it was just a few days ago.  And from Alex Peters doesn't speak well for CBS.   If it comes out that they did talk to Axanar Productions and Peters and said "nonono, Hey, we serious about our condidtions, you cannot pay your self, correct this"  And A.P. and Peters did not correct it, that is a different matter entirely.   If that is the case then CBS bringing suit is entirely legitimate, proper, and appropriate.   If Peters acted improperly by taking pay then the courts will deal with it.   At the very least anything he's been paid he will have to give back.   I'm hoping we see some sort of press release from CBS before the week is out giving the networks intentions with this suit.  It'd be nice to see a little damage control here from CBS.

The serving notice given to Peters is a tad short on anything else other then "Your being sued, show up in court and defend your action or face a decision against you"  The specific of the CBS's complaint are not something we know yet... A summons to appear typically does not contain the entirety of the complaint the suit is seeking to correct.   You have to go to court to find that out.  It can be a lengthy process..  The danger to Axanar is CBS requesting an injunction and shutting production down while the matter is in court.  Even while production would be halted, the costs of production continue to accrue, such as space rental for the Axanar production studio space would continue, and set maintainence if the project is to continue.  I can see Alex Peters getting a slight case of stupid and having dug his heels in when he shouldn't have, but Axanar is a whole lot more then Alex Peters now.  It maybe his project, and he may have created it, but he no longer can be said to own it.  To many other people have contributed there time, money and talent at this point.

 
Ah well, nuff typing and fullsome pontificating, we'll see what happens, and I do hope we get to see Axanar eventually.. I gotta mod I wanna make darnit! 


And may I add that I am so freaking glad that such issues with SFB, and SFC were delt with years and years and years ago. (we hope...if CBS has decided its going to go all storm trooper on us they really could kill star trek.)   


Khemaraa Iron Hand says.

P.S. No longer playing Star trek online..after 6 years I've given up on it.   So very sorry I ever promoted it to this community.   Please forgive me for having ever done so.  I'm gonna need a trek based online PvP ship combat game fix again soon, and I don't see any chance of that happening along those lines commercially until STO dies.   
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 07, 2016, 09:13:01 am
The specific of the CBS's complaint are not something we know yet...


Sure we do:

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163394445.msg1123051798.html#msg1123051798 (http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163394445.msg1123051798.html#msg1123051798)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 07, 2016, 11:04:23 am
From Corbomite's linked post above, see this link.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2660454-Startreklawsuit.html (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2660454-Startreklawsuit.html)

From the above document, CBS has indicated that they are seeking up to $150,000 per copyrighted work in damages, with 17 copyrighted works cited (a little over 2.5 Million in damages).

Reading through the above complaint, yeah ANY Star Trek fan effort can run afoul of the cited copyright infringement.  Many of the fan efforts recreate the original starship sets (which fall under copyright), and create production companies which oversee the use of said sets.  Axanar has been a little more open about being a production company, but they aren't the only one.

This isn't people shooting episodes in their living room, with the barca lounger doubling as a Captain's chair.  Said sets are faithful recreations of the original.  Said complaint specifically cites Axanar's (under construction) bridge set amongst other noted infringements.

Alec Peters has indicated on the Axanar site that they are currently in discussions to resolve the legal situation.
http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-4th-2016/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-4th-2016/)
Quote
(snip)
We wonít be commenting much on the legal case as we are in discussions to settle the situation.  What I can say is that all those arm chair lawyers have absolutely no clue what is going on in those discussions.  And no clue what CBS and Paramount thinks.

We hope to amicably resolve the situation in a way that benefits CBS, Paramount, Axanar and all fan films.

Alec Peters

Executive Producers


Still rooting for an amicable settlement.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 07, 2016, 12:07:32 pm
David Gerrold has expanded on his original remarks:


http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-2/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-2/)

http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-3/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/david-gerrold-on-cbs-vs-axanar-part-3/)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on January 07, 2016, 08:09:02 pm
A photon torpedo directed at Paramount/CBS HQ outta do it. Tired of these people and their nonsense.

I can think of about two dozen other places I would put higher on my target priority list.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 19, 2016, 03:07:29 am
I guess ST predicted the future accurately again. Remember when Data said that TV as an entertainment form didn't survive past the early 21st century?  ;)

They are probably going to move it to their own new streaming service to give people and excuse to sign up for it.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Tulwar on January 19, 2016, 07:43:30 am
Exactly my thoughts. They know damn well we have no interest in ST Beyond or their new JJ Series. So let's force the old Trekkies to buy our streaming service and then they'll watch the JJthon. Hmph. Good luck. I rather buy bootleg copies from China then to contribute to their already big fat pockets. Hmph :hoppin:

This is exactly the threat that Axanar poses to the owners of the copyright.  The fans are making their own movies rather than shelling out for the crap the studios want to churn out.  The corporate chairmen reserve all creativity for themselves, and they have absolutely zero.  Who needs an imagination when you're rich enough buy anything you want?

That makes fans of any kind of fiction a bad audience.  The people who watch game shows are far less demanding.  Somehow, the people that own properties like Star Trek are just going to try to find a better audience.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 21, 2016, 08:56:39 am
So these guys get an "Atta boy!" and Axanar gets a lawsuit. This whole situation is bizarre.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/21/entertainment/star-trek-new-voyages-online-series/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/21/entertainment/star-trek-new-voyages-online-series/index.html)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Javora on January 21, 2016, 10:22:26 am
Axanar should be able to use that in their response to the lawsuit.  Paramount can't pick and choose who is stealing their copyrights and who isn't.  That leaves the issue of if Axanar is making a profit or not.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 21, 2016, 11:43:28 am
Just how has anyone made profit? I thought the donor store was pushing it, but it is no different than public television giving gifts for donations during their pledge drives. As far as the "studio for profit" rumors; all I've heard is that AP rented a warehouse space to build sets and shoot the movie. He doesn't own the building and is responsible for a three year lease that they only planned to use for one year. He was on the line for $250,000 for a space that they weren't going to use (at least as far as they knew, they were leaving the future open). Anyone who makes a production starts a production company for tax and payroll purposes, so I don't see any issue there as long as it remained non-profit. All their expenses are there to see on the site. I still just see a damage to property argument here and that will be up to the jury to decide.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FPF-Tobin Dax on January 21, 2016, 01:20:56 pm
https://twitter.com/tonytodd54/status/682286369385807872
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 21, 2016, 01:21:14 pm
Any info on why Tony Todd had it with him and left?


Apparently he had a problem with crowd funding and lack of accountability. He left months before this all broke out, so I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the Axanar staff or just the whole concept. It sounds like his agent/lawyer might have advised him against further involvement. That's a real shame too, he was one of the best things about the prelude.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 21, 2016, 01:29:20 pm
Well, he says that Axanar should have been finished months ago. Maybe he felt that things were going too slowly and didn't see the money being spent in a way he thought was accountable. I know I thought it was weird when they said they reached their stated goal and then continued to ask for money.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 21, 2016, 01:42:00 pm
I'd be more concerned with how they are going to finish the movie period. They can recast, rewrite the role out as an onscreen character or even kill him off/replace him before the current events of the movie. Or maybe, just maybe, Tony Todd will return if and when all the dust settles and his concerns are addressed.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 21, 2016, 02:05:40 pm
Axanar Productions has been continuing work, business as usual, getting things ready for shooting.

While 'no comment' is the usual mantra once you enter into the lawsuit arena (i.e. don't give the opposition any more ammunition) I haven't seen much in the last couple of weeks that would indicate that an amicable settlement is in the cards.  I do think that this is the only way that Axanar can move forward.

As mentioned above by a couple of you, this looks like 'image control' to me.  Fans (and at least one TOS alum, George Takei) have already been expressing skepticism r.e. the upcoming movie, and the studio execs may not want to have Axanar out there as something to make their own production look bad.  Unfortunately, CBS/Paramount have went the Lowest Common Denominator route with the last two movies, going for 'flash' over 'substance'.  Axanar looks to be a more intellectual exercise (based on the tone set in Prelude), focusing more on the story and less on the 'pew pew'.

So in short, IMHO CBS/Paramount don't want Axanar making their own efforts look bad... otherwise they'd go the 'amicable' route and work out licensing.  Of course, we don't really know, and unfortunately the legal system route can often take years to work out a resolution.

The change.org petition (there are actually 3, but only one is getting traction) seems to be doing OK.  11,216 supporters so far as of this post:
https://www.change.org/p/cbs-support-axanar (https://www.change.org/p/cbs-support-axanar)

The other two petitions (as of this post, these have less than 100 sigs each)
https://www.change.org/p/cbs-save-star-trek-axanar (https://www.change.org/p/cbs-save-star-trek-axanar)
https://www.change.org/p/columbia-broadcast-network-and-paramount-pictures-tell-cbs-and-paramount-that-they-must-drop-their-lawsuit-against-axanar (https://www.change.org/p/columbia-broadcast-network-and-paramount-pictures-tell-cbs-and-paramount-that-they-must-drop-their-lawsuit-against-axanar)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 22, 2016, 07:05:42 am
I found these interesting:


http://imgur.com/gallery/Nw1IY30 (http://imgur.com/gallery/Nw1IY30)

https://twitter.com/TonyTodd54/status/682335902811598848 (https://twitter.com/TonyTodd54/status/682335902811598848)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXgabMoWsAIngIM.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXgabMoWsAIngIM.jpg)

https://twitter.com/TonyTodd54/status/682330466834190337 (https://twitter.com/TonyTodd54/status/682330466834190337)


Especially this:

Quote
Tony Todd ‏@TonyTodd54  ∑ 30 Dec 2015 
@PhilsStalkers @Jason_Kovalik learned time ago only as good as weakest link. Couldn't perform w a lead w dubious acting talents.



Now we know why TT left the production or at least the impetus for it.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 22, 2016, 07:53:00 am
You know, the absurdity of all this just hit me. You have an actor leaving a production because it was too amateur to be worth his time and effort, even though it is a self styled pseudo professional fan film and then on the flip side you have Paramount/CBS suing because it is too polished and being run as a professional shoot which is playing fast and loose with the same business rules that protect a charity on the momentum of their IP. If anything required an impartial judge it's this.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 22, 2016, 11:52:59 am
Other fan productions have long term/permanent shooting facilities, ostensibly paid for by "fans" of one sort or another it seems, so I don't see what the finger pointing is all about. Other productions got a "free" sound stage out of their efforts. I guess the main concern is over paid positions because materials and certain specialized labor will always cost something (unless self motivated people volunteer their time and/or materials). I find it hard to believe that no one was paid for their services on some of these other fan films. Do Koenig, Nichols and Russ work for free?


http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-20th-2016/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-20th-2016/)


Quote
This really makes the sound stage the best fan film sound stage in the country.  Now both Star Trek: New Voyages and Star Trek: Continues each have full time 10,000sf+ facilities with standing sets.  Having worked on the New Voyages sound stage (which I actually was responsible for finding for James Cawley) and having been on the Farragut/STC sets, I can say that both are nice.  But neither facility is as large or flexible as ours.

So if all goes well, we will be making Star Trek fans films for a long time.  Not just Axanar, but others as well, and hopefully other fan films will come use our facility.

Alec Peters


Executive Producer
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 22, 2016, 04:18:43 pm
Just a quick observation:

Axanar Productions is located in the State of California.  Note that Laurel Canyon Studios (ST Renegades) is located in Los Angeles, which  puts it in the State of California as well.  I'm thinking that the proximity of Axanar's production studio to Hollywood has played into Paramount/CBS's decision in some fashion, as it would fall under California law as well as U.S. law.

Renegades is still plugging away at episode II, which has me wondering if they have some sort of use agreement with CBS.  They did officially submit their pilot to CBS as a proposal for a new series, and have indicated that they are continuing as a webseries.

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 23, 2016, 11:25:10 pm
http://www.axanarproductions.com/axanar-signs-winston-strawn-to-defend-cbsparamount-lawsuit/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/axanar-signs-winston-strawn-to-defend-cbsparamount-lawsuit/)

http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-21st-2016/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-21st-2016/)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Corbomite on January 24, 2016, 06:59:08 am
They posted a VFX shot in what looks like a ring system at the end of this post. They really enjoy them some space debris. Someone should explain to them that space is mostly empty.  :P



http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-22nd-2016/ (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-22nd-2016/)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: [UFP]Exeter on January 24, 2016, 04:11:06 pm
I have been following and I am concerned about sfc4.  We are not at this level but cbs does own the copyright.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on January 25, 2016, 02:45:39 pm
They posted a VFX shot in what looks like a ring system at the end of this post. They really enjoy them some space debris. Someone should explain to them that space is mostly empty.  :P



[url]http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-22nd-2016/[/url] ([url]http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-jan-22nd-2016/[/url])


My thought when I saw that shot was that we were looking at a ring system around a gas planet.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on February 24, 2016, 01:04:41 pm
The Hollywood Reporter has Axanar Production's recently filed counter-motion on their site, with some commentary.  I saw this posted on the Axanar (http://www.axanarproductions.com/captains-log-feb-23rd-2016/) site, but that posting primarily directs the viewer to the Hollywood Reporter article, without much comment other than 'more news soon!'

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/star-trek-fans-want-paramount-868691 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/star-trek-fans-want-paramount-868691)

The comment about the Star Trek copyright ownership changing hands over the years is interesting (NBC aired the original series, as produced by Desilu studios, CBS/Paramount ended up with the franchise at some point).  Still hoping for an amicable agreement here!
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Javora on February 24, 2016, 02:18:07 pm
Interesting tactics, if more than one company owns parts of Star Trek it's going to cause a real mess IMHO.  Even more interesting and a little suspicious is that they don't raise the issue of being not for profit in the response.  I think that a judge is going to call BS on the continuous changes to the script and throw it out.  Has the Axanar people ever received a cease and desist from Paramount before Paramount filed suit?
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FA Frey XC on February 26, 2016, 12:08:14 am
We have nothing to fear about SFC4.

Trust me on this.

That is all.

Regards,
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on May 21, 2016, 01:49:50 pm
Just to update this thread (rather than confuse another), but early news is that Paramount is dropping its suit against Axanar.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/paramounts-lawsuit-against-axanar-productions-star-trek-1777959978 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/paramounts-lawsuit-against-axanar-productions-star-trek-1777959978)

Details are very thin but it also appears that Abrams & Lin's support for Axanar was part of the solution. If that's the case, well, I still hate ST XI & XII, but I will give some extra karma points to them for siding with the fans on this.

Then again, is it just possible that the name of this thread carry more weight? Hee, either way, score one for the little guy
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on May 23, 2016, 01:31:05 pm
The devil will be in the details, but I am happy that a settlement seems to be in the works.  Cautiously optimistic...

What will be more important will be the official fan film guidelines that CBS has reportedly said that they will be releasing in the coming weeks.  In a weird way, the work here on SFC may tie into those guidelines, as this game is mainly fan supported at this point (unless you want to define they guys behind Dynaverse.net as a game publisher).
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Captain Spadaro on August 12, 2016, 10:30:20 am
If you honestly think a boycott is going to hurt Beyond's numbers, you are a fool.  The real culprits to a weak box office showing for Beyond will:
A. There are several other films vying for audience attention (Suicide Squad, that awful Ghostbusters reboot, the new Ice Age film, etc.)
&
B. The fact that people seem to be getting tired of reboots as a whole (thankfully).
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: EschelonOfJudgemnt on August 12, 2016, 10:56:58 am
Just read an article yesterday that indicated that domestically Beyond is struggling, but that once it plays out internationally they should break even/make a small profit, which means that #4 is safe for now (unfortunately).

Lessee if I can find that article again... here it is:

http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/ (http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/)

If there is a takeaway, it's that they may want to spend less than $185 Million on #4, to ensure that they make more money on the next one... so much for hoping that the Kelvin timeline would die with #3!

The more interesting (indirectly Axanar-related) news, I linked in another thread.  Reposting link here:

http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/08/new-trek-series-committed-to-casting-diversity-main-character-wont-be-captain/ (http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/08/new-trek-series-committed-to-casting-diversity-main-character-wont-be-captain/)

A comment I'm seeing a lot these days is that, since the new series is set during roughly the same time period as the Four Years War, that CBS/Paramount wanted that playground to themselves.  And since a Klingon captain is listed as one of the principal cast/roles, well it does make you wonder.  By 'killing off' Axanar, they avoid having to deal with the comparisons...

The Star Trek franchise has a history of 'co-opting' ideas (Babylon 5 vs Deep Space 9 anyone?), so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Garth of Izar and the Four Years War referenced in the new series.  If so, I'll probably still like Alec Peter's version better - Prelude to Axanar is just so damn cool!

Myself, I'd just call Axanar it's own timeline.  Star Trek has a history of multiple timelines, so no harm done to the 'Prime' timeline even if Axanar moved forward - it'd just be a parallel timeline...





Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Captain Spadaro on August 12, 2016, 11:09:47 am
Just read an article yesterday that indicated that domestically Beyond is struggling, but that once it plays out internationally they should break even/make a small profit, which means that #4 is safe for now (unfortunately).

Lessee if I can find that article again... here it is:

[url]http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/[/url] ([url]http://screenrant.com/star-trek-beyond-box-office-success-failure/[/url])

If there is a takeaway, it's that they may want to spend less than $185 Million on #4, to ensure that they make more money on the next one... so much for hoping that the Kelvin timeline would die with #3!

The more interesting (indirectly Axanar-related) news, I linked in another thread.  Reposting link here:

[url]http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/08/new-trek-series-committed-to-casting-diversity-main-character-wont-be-captain/[/url] ([url]http://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/08/new-trek-series-committed-to-casting-diversity-main-character-wont-be-captain/[/url])

A comment I'm seeing a lot these days is that, since the new series is set during roughly the same time period as the Four Years War, that CBS/Paramount wanted that playground to themselves.  And since a Klingon captain is listed as one of the principal cast/roles, well it does make you wonder.  By 'killing off' Axanar, they avoid having to deal with the comparisons...

The Star Trek franchise has a history of 'co-opting' ideas (Babylon 5 vs Deep Space 9 anyone?), so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Garth of Izar and the Four Years War referenced in the new series.  If so, I'll probably still like Alec Peter's version better - Prelude to Axanar is just so damn cool!

Myself, I'd just call Axanar it's own timeline.  Star Trek has a history of multiple timelines, so no harm done to the 'Prime' timeline even if Axanar moved forward - it'd just be a parallel timeline...


The Four Years War is from the FASA RPG from the 80s, and thus isn't canon.  Only reason Axanar Prod. was using that info is because there is nothing else in the canon about it (as far as other non-canon sources go a novel about Garth was written many years ago).

More importantly, Bryan Fuller said on August 10th that the new series WILL NOT REVOLVE AROUND AXANAR!  http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/08/bryan-fuller-reveals-long-awaited-star-trek-discovery-details/ (http://trekcore.com/blog/2016/08/bryan-fuller-reveals-long-awaited-star-trek-discovery-details/)
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on January 24, 2017, 11:31:13 am
In case someone hasn't heard the news, CBS/Para. have settled with Axanar Productions

http://trekmovie.com/2017/01/20/axanar-studios-settle-star-trek-copyright-infringement-lawsuit/ (http://trekmovie.com/2017/01/20/axanar-studios-settle-star-trek-copyright-infringement-lawsuit/)

The link gives what details are known, and much is still not, but the bullet is that Axanar may proceed, following the new fan-film guidelines, to produce a 30-minute film in two 15-minute sections for free release. The new guideleines prohibit involvement from anyone who has worked for CBS/Para. (I had never heard that detail before), but the actors who appeared in "Prelude to Axanar" (Hertzel and Graham, i.e.) will be allowed to participate.

This film has seem to divide fans into two camps of equal ire, so I'll leave this as is, to be debated. There is also a wiki set up with many articles to help confirm your onw biases ;)

http://axamonitor.com/doku.php?id=start (http://axamonitor.com/doku.php?id=start)

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on January 24, 2017, 11:44:33 am
In my opinion, this is really great news, if not the most optimal solution. I was very excited by "Prelude to Axanar," and much more optimistic about it than the JJ-Trek  universe.  As a video professional I can tell you the complexities of fundraising and copyright, let alone production, can be overwhelming, so I'm sure there's been some wandering into grey areas. Though it won't be the full film we had hoped for, at least most of the stellar cast they assembled can be in it, if they so choose
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: FPF-Tobin Dax on January 24, 2017, 07:33:10 pm
Peters ruined star trek fan films out of his own arrogance. He can strut around all he wants with his victory, but we really all lost.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on January 25, 2017, 01:31:50 pm
you're entitled to your opinion but I hardly think it's one persons fault; CBS/Par were bound to react, given the dramatic improvement in DIY video equipment and the ability to disseminate content. (It was easy to ignore when fans made bad VHS filsm).

Since Peters is still under a lot of restrictions and still open to some lawsuits, I haven't seen much "strutting" going on.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: A88mph on February 04, 2017, 10:10:08 pm
In my opinion, I think Trek fans should start making Trek stories in the Star Wars Universe, even if Trek-like tales don't fit the SW setting, simply because SW's owners more or less encourage its fans to make their own stuff.

If enough fans do something like that, as well as stop buying Trek merchandise, perhaps then CBS and Paramount will get it. Until then, I'm probably only going to buy things from ADB's version of Trek... actually, maybe we all should do the same. While Paramount dose get a royalty check from ADB, maybe the message of "We don't want your JJ Trek" will be clearer to them if their main sales go down, while that Royalty Check gets bigger.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on February 07, 2017, 04:08:27 pm
but they really don't parse things that way, and your scale is way off. JJ-Trek made over a billion worldwide. THe TV shows make millions in advertising. The books & comics make hundreds of thousands per year.  The royalties they receive from ADB is barely pocket change to them (remember, ADB barely hung on to the ST license, since they originally acquired it thru Franz Josephs Design and the "Tech Manual"), and any boycott is not going to send a message other than that we're not buying Star Trek anymore, which just kills the franchise
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: jayvt3 on February 13, 2017, 09:31:54 am
well as politically correct, perverse, and sjw infested as Trek has become, I'm pretty sure that if they, Axanar, had made half the cast gay, trans-gendered, the other half with pedophiliac tendencies and blamed the federation for trying to colonize Klingon worlds and enslave them, CBS/Paramount would have given them millions or just bought it all and let them make as many videos as they liked.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: TAnimaL on February 15, 2017, 01:13:06 pm
WOW, angry much?
No seriously, go to hell jayvt3, and take your homophobic slanderous vitriol with you. There's "opinion" and then there's hatred, and yours seem much more the latter. Geeze, have you ever even effin' watched Star Trek in a semi-conscious state before? Ya know, the show that goes on about peaceful coexistence and exploration?? I am really sorry if you're on of those that feel "emboldened" by the current political scene to just spout off vile hyperbole, but comments like that are just idiotic nastiness that make you look stupid.

For the record:
- being politically correct isn't some sort of Orwellian BS thought patrol, it's about not using derogatory/antiquated/inappropriate language for others. I get to decide what you call me, not you. If the case be, I am an Irish-American woman, not a "mick skank" because you think that's funny.
- it is beyond offensive to equate homosexuality and the transgendered with words like "perverse" and link it casually with pedophilia. I realize that are religious radicals that prefer this hateful narrow-minded idealogy but in this day and age statements like this is usually shouted by those in white hoods while burning crosses.
- you know what? I don't even want to know what "sjw infested" means. Probably just another hate-filled tinfoil-hat conspiracy mumbojumbo.

What in the name of the Great Bird of the Galaxy happened to ST fans?  Why do you even like the series? Has it ceased being about the thing itself and now just a fetishised icon of your lost childhood? Or is it just "pew pew pew/shoot  'em up" in space?
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Javora on February 15, 2017, 09:48:18 pm
Can we please leave the political junk out of this thread?  I don't want to see this thread get moved into Hot and Spicy.  There is still stuff to talk about without going down this road.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Nemesis on February 16, 2017, 01:00:27 pm
Like Javora says this is heading in the Hot and Spicy direction and I'd prefer to not have to take action so please everyone tone it down.

TAnimaL SJW=Social Justice Warrior, specifically those who take things to the extreme and are outraged by things the "victim" didn't get  outraged by.

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on February 23, 2017, 08:03:41 am
To be on topic: are they continuing to produce it?

It seem interesting and I would like to see that mini movie finish. I have watch some startrek fan made and I like StarTrek continued. Who ever is making it got it right. Another Star Trek fan made series (I think its phase 2) but not with the phase 2 enterprise, sadly. They have it wrong ,Kirk is not a black hair and the story are kinda bad.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: AlDaja on February 24, 2017, 09:41:57 pm
To be on topic: are they continuing to produce it?

It seem interesting and I would like to see that mini movie finish. I have watch some startrek fan made and I like StarTrek continued. Who ever is making it got it right. Another Star Trek fan made series (I think its phase 2) but not with the phase 2 enterprise, sadly. They have it wrong ,Kirk is not a black hair and the story are kinda bad.

From what I understand, both were shut down.  I was kinda hoping to see the Axanar film...maybe series?  They got some of the actors from Enterprise to reprise their roles.  Funny how after being shut down, CBS announces Star Trek: Discovery that just happens to be during the same time period.  Maybe afraid of a little competition.  Bummer.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on March 21, 2017, 02:40:55 pm
The should sue CBS for the lost of money involve in that. Since it was not justify. And because that new Star Trek movie (that sucks even if its not out yet) They are jealous of the susses Anaxar would have and that its free on YouTube.

Maybe they should hire them to create a good Star Trek story since who ever they have is bad. I think I says that before?

Anyway because of CBS they lost money and can't continue the production of Anaxar. They should not let it die and force CBS to refund the money lost.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on August 10, 2017, 07:28:39 pm
That Star Trek story will not be from the prime timeline.

the Klingon will be different and wont be the "communist" of the 60s but a faction of the USA.

So all the wrong way to make a Star Trek series are been put into that alternated timeline.

They did everything to crush Anaxar so they can force us to watch and pay for that garbage call "Discovery" CBS seem to be out of their mind, if they have a mind. Paramount became CBS and a "sub division" became Paramount and yet they can't make a TV series or a movie that is worth calling Star Trek.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on August 11, 2017, 12:51:36 pm
I found this video about Anaxar and I don't know if its true or not. If it is, its sad what they did. using fan to scam us and not really trying to make a fan movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEBLz3w6a7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEBLz3w6a7U)

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Vipre on August 11, 2017, 04:12:19 pm
To be on topic: are they continuing to produce it?

It seem interesting and I would like to see that mini movie finish. I have watch some startrek fan made and I like StarTrek continued. Who ever is making it got it right. Another Star Trek fan made series (I think its phase 2) but not with the phase 2 enterprise, sadly. They have it wrong ,Kirk is not a black hair and the story are kinda bad.

If by "it" you mean Axanar, yes they're continuing to produce it. Being allowed to finish it, but as two 15 min parts, was part of the settlement agreement.

Phase 2 was about to roll out the P2 E but this happened and production was shut down first.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: AlDaja on August 16, 2017, 05:06:08 pm
I'm waiting for The Orville.  Good to know veteran Trek actors and directors will be in front and behind the camera to include Brannon Braga and Jonathon Franks. 
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on October 10, 2017, 09:48:52 pm
I watch the first episode of The Orville and its interesting.

I read about Beyond that the ship is not show before episode 3, the first officer keep arguing with the captain, the scene in the dessert is pointless and long, the captain die at the hands of the Klingon in episode 3 I think.

the first officer in the brig, well more like a force field cube that a brig and if you keep asking the com, it will drop the force field (kinda pretty stupid) and that the Klingon only speak in Klingon with subtitles.

All that can be wrong are included in Star Trek Beyond, including a male name for a female. Also only one male aboard a all female (almost) only ship.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Javora on October 11, 2017, 07:13:21 am
Iím really liking the Orville, itís a little corny but overall itís really good.  Missed the first two episodes, need catch those somewhere.  No way Iím watching STD, didnít like the first episode and Iím certainly not paying for it.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on October 11, 2017, 05:54:00 pm
I'm really liking Orville.  In episode 5 they gave us the first glimpse of speed.  And the Orville's quantum drive is SO much faster than Warp Drive.  Top speed, the Orville could go from here to Alpha Centauri in 30 minutes.  It'd take about 14 hours at Voyager's top speed.

As for Discovery, from what I've seen thus far, I don't like.  The uniforms are neat... but way too fancy, its like asking a Navy ship to wear dress uniforms all day, every day for weeks.  The Shenzou looked fine, but the Discovery looks like it has things in it because it's cgi and because we can.  I understand that the cut out of the saucer is so the outer ring can rotate... but why?  what possible practical purpose could that serve?  The only thing I can come up with is so it can bring Phasers to bear on something it might not otherwise be able to.  The whole vibe of the show smacks of Section 31, which could be cool if done properly, but I don't buy that Section 31 can get two (at least) state of the art cruisers at a time when the Federation is still in its infancy and really needs every ship it can get.  If you want to set it in the Pre-TNG era, I could buy that, there's plenty of ships just sitting around in mothballs that Section 31 could just appropriate.  The Klingons themselves look good to me, there's several different explanations as to why they look different, I'm a fan of the idea that this particular house is dabbling in restoring their look lost to them in Season 4 of Enterprise, and may have gone just a bit too far.  A couple tweaks to the retro-virus they used to get here and they're back to normal.  The ships on the other hand... all of them are just trash.  The D7 was such a sleek, menacing looking ship, and these look like a wolverine lost a fight with a rose garden.  Enterprise did a fairly good job of reversing the D7 (not counting the D7 appearing in "Unexpected")  We could have certainly used a couple of D5s from Enterprise in the battle, and what about the D6?  Axanar built a beautiful D6, if you're going to tell me the cruisers they fought were D6s... I might just cry.

I watched the first Episode on CBS, but I'm not paying for it just yet.  Maybe around Christmas I might pick up the week trial and binge watch it.  Or I might wait and see if they change their mind and move it to Netflix for season 2.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Vipre on October 11, 2017, 06:33:11 pm
I understand that the cut out of the saucer is so the outer ring can rotate... but why?  what possible practical purpose could that serve?  The only thing I can come up with is so it can bring Phasers to bear on something it might not otherwise be able to.  The whole vibe of the show smacks of Section 31, which could be cool if done properly, but I don't buy that Section 31 can get two (at least) state of the art cruisers at a time when the Federation is still in its infancy and really needs every ship it can get.  If you want to set it in the Pre-TNG era, I could buy that, there's plenty of ships just sitting around in mothballs that Section 31 could just appropriate.

The ship is essentially a giant science experiment. Two custom test beds built around an experimental propulsion system. The rotating rings are for energy dissipation relating to the drive. It also has a standard warp drive for general propulsion. Apparently in this incarnation of the universe their fleet numbers are closer to late TMP levels. Starfleet covert wartime R&D the lot of it.
Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Don Karnage on October 28, 2017, 09:26:50 am
Iím really liking the Orville, itís a little corny but overall itís really good.  Missed the first two episodes, need catch those somewhere.  No way Iím watching STD, didnít like the first episode and Iím certainly not paying for it.

I know a place where you can watch The Orvile and a lot more TV series for free. No need to register or anything ^^

But I don't know if I can put the link here? I can give it in PM tough.

Title: Re: No Axanar NO BEYOND!!!!
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on November 01, 2017, 03:39:28 pm
Fox has them available on demand.  In fact, I've been able to watch them for free, just not on the day they released them.  I have to wait until the next morning to watch them... which is just fine for me, I'm usually busy Thursday Nights anyways.