Topic: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP  (Read 28608 times)

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Holocat

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #220 on: July 12, 2003, 10:41:41 am »

Hey, it's me again,

Alright, here's what we have so far, under all the arguments about SFB, SFC 3 and reality.

The SFBers want a game that contains the essence of the majestic navy ship.  Slow and stately behmoths that approach, maneauver, and crash with all the glory of the greek gods fighting, and all the fire and brimstone of hades below.

Nannerslug stated that he liked AV.  He wants interesting tatical difference between a small, fast ship, and a big slow ship.  I don't think this is unreasonable.  Stop responding to the label and concider what has been said, gentlemen.

I would like intresting strategic level play.  F&E is a good start, but I'm aware of many other padigrams out there that can fit the bill, and may be better suited to gameplay then hexmapping.  I'll explore these in a later post.

What Day is insinuating in the above post is multilevel control;  There's no reason we can't have BOTH sliders and numbers, and switch between them.  It's been done, it's useful, and it may satisfy both the people that rather have it simplified or the grognards who want exactly X going to their engines.

Other often stated items include primarily three things:

1 Theme.  We got it in SFC 1, and most of us want it back.  It adds romance.  Most of us want multi era theme too.

2 Grand Melee/reinforcements.  Most of us want to be able to join missions in a dynamic, instead of static fashion.  Certainly this will add tatical and strategic interest.

3 Tatically and strategically useful fleets.  More integration between elements of a fleet, rather than the continual duels we have today.

And that's about it.

We have not heard extensively from the SFC3 community about what they want.  I could probably come up with strong evidence that this is usually because they're put on defensive by unrelenting attacks from the SFB crowd.  With all due respect, SHUT UP PLEASE.  Before you automatically go off gunning at AV or whatever else may stroke you 'grognards' the wrong way, try thinking first.

Nanner stated he liked AV because it creates tatical difference between small fast things and slow large things.

Rod O'Neal stated that You do have small target modifiers in SFB.  I believe the applies to fighters, and am unsure of ships.

I don't believe that SFB can't create tatical difference between small and large objects.  I don't believe that most of this argument was nessisary, and am fairly sure it was divisive.

The SFBers here have spoken, and I have probably distilled their wishes correctly.  Maintain that good old navy feel.  Improve it, if you can.

The Peoples that favour SFC3 have not yet spoken.  Stop choking them.  I think, if we all STOP, LISTEN, and THINK ABOUT WHAT IS SAID, we can come up with something that will please both crowds.

Any SFC3ers with good ideas might want to post now,

Holocat.



Note:  The reference to the 'grognards' in no way targets any one person or post here.  Rather, it encompasses the entire agressive attitude across many of the posts seen.  If you feel insulted, my apologies.  I do feel that you're trying to suppress opinion however.
 

Holocat

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #221 on: July 12, 2003, 10:44:58 am »
Quote:

As far as doing away with the D6 to determine hit/damage probability. The formula has to be kept simple enough that the player, not just the computer, has an idea of how much damage can be expected at different ranges, etc... As an example, in SFB you can pretty well estimate the damage that you're going to get/give at a particular range. This allows you to decide at what range(s) you want the battle to take place at. Much of the tactics then revolve around maneuver to get into your desired firing position and keep your opponent out of their's.    




This leads to the intresting question as to whether you wish a random factor in what your hit and how hard you hit.  If so, generally how do you think it should be determined?  If not, why not?

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #222 on: July 12, 2003, 12:18:39 pm »
I think the reason that so many SFBer post and SFC3er don't, is because the SFBers have stopped playing and are demanding thier game back.  Some, like Rod O'Neal, are working hard to insert things into SFC2/OP things that should have been there all along.  Sorry for shooting SFCer down, but we think Activision is behind them 100% and doesn't give a hang about what we want.  

**DONOTDELETE**

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #223 on: July 12, 2003, 12:36:08 pm »
Quote:

I think the reason that so many SFBer post and SFC3er don't, is because the SFBers have stopped playing and are demanding thier game back.  Some, like Rod O'Neal, are working hard to insert things into SFC2/OP things that should have been there all along.  Sorry for shooting SFCer down, but we think Activision is behind them 100% and doesn't give a hang about what we want.  




There are still a few hundred of us playing....and for the record....we wanted to see the game evolve....but many had assumed it to be a gradual evolution instead of the huge jump to SFC3....

I for one...think the product line should stay split....but sell both expansions in one package....

Galaxies at War(based on SFC2/OP code and ruleset) and Era's of Conflict (based on the OP/SFC3 code and ruleset)......

Everyone could be happy with one sale.

The_Infiltrator

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #224 on: July 12, 2003, 02:46:24 pm »
Quote:




Nannerslug stated that he liked AV.  He wants interesting tatical difference between a small, fast ship, and a big slow ship.  I don't think this is unreasonable.  Stop responding to the label and concider what has been said, gentlemen.

 




Again, SFC design decision. SFB simulates this by adding in small target modifiers and nimble ship bonuses. These in EAW and OP are either only partially implimented or not implimented at all. Why don't we try something like this first? AV represents a revolutionary change in the way combat works, and as my first post outlines, many, including myself, despise it.


Quote:


I would like intresting strategic level play.  F&E is a good start, but I'm aware of many other padigrams out there that can fit the bill, and may be better suited to gameplay then hexmapping.  I'll explore these in a later post.





No question. The key is the identification of what things can change for the better, because of the power of the computer, and what things can be changed for the sake of change. Do the first not the second.  That's why I mentioned F&E originally. I would not propose porting it over without making some of the first kind of changes. However, what F&E DOES have, and in a lot of detail, is economic and production controls. These are the kinds of things I think everyone wants in any future expansion of this product line. Another such change would be removing the die break points that Nanner hates so much. However, I'll add this caveat to this: The reason that people like me like these is that we can easily tell at whatever range what the likely outcome of any attack will be. Any such replacement must have this as well.

Quote:


What Day is insinuating in the above post is multilevel control;  There's no reason we can't have BOTH sliders and numbers, and switch between them.  It's been done, it's useful, and it may satisfy both the people that rather have it simplified or the grognards who want exactly X going to their engines.





Absolutely. This again goes back to design, where I stated in my first thread that SFC is a grognard's game, but it's key to success was making it appear on the surface that it is not. To take another look at this, think of the way batteries work. Or rather, don't work. What if you could select an option from a drop down like menu (anyone that has played Neverwinter Nights or Diablo will know what I mean) to charge heavy weapons X and Y from batteries? You would then have X seconds of charge until you ran out of power. Or how about a selection to automatically reinforce shields from batteries upon taking a hit on a shield that would cause internal damage? What about a selection from a menu that would allow you to automatically match ecm from eccm? Your science officer then would attempt to carry out your orders - and how skilled he is would determine how successful he is. Would that be interesting? I think it would and I also think I'm not alone.

Quote:


Other often stated items include primarily three things:

1 Theme.  We got it in SFC 1, and most of us want it back.  It adds romance.  Most of us want multi era theme too.

2 Grand Melee/reinforcements.  Most of us want to be able to join missions in a dynamic, instead of static fashion.  Certainly this will add tatical and strategic interest.

3 Tatically and strategically useful fleets.  More integration between elements of a fleet, rather than the continual duels we have today.

And that's about it.





No question. And 1 other very important thing: The ability to have more than 3 humans per side in a mission. Say, 5 at least. And for god's sake, it has to be stable.

I know this is hard but wouldn't large scale battles be interesting?

Quote:


We have not heard extensively from the SFC3 community about what they want.  I could probably come up with strong evidence that this is usually because they're put on defensive by unrelenting attacks from the SFB crowd.  With all due respect, SHUT UP PLEASE.  Before you automatically go off gunning at AV or whatever else may stroke you 'grognards' the wrong way, try thinking first.





No one is stopping them. It would be nice if someone other than Nanner would do so. Nanner has a frequently...exasperating attitude. I almost could see him as a part of the band of the Titanic as it sinks, but I think he has more sense than that Has it occured to you that perhaps they mostly read posts in the D3 forum and not here?

Quote:


Nanner stated he liked AV because it creates tatical difference between small fast things and slow large things.

Rod O'Neal stated that You do have small target modifiers in SFB.  I believe the applies to fighters, and am unsure of ships.

I don't believe that SFB can't create tatical difference between small and large objects.  I don't believe that most of this argument was nessisary, and am fairly sure it was divisive.





It depends on the size of the ship. Generally, anything the size of a frigate or above is thought by the ruleset to be too large to gain such a bonus. However, it does apply to all police ships and small frigates (E3, G2) and PF's.

 

The_Infiltrator

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2003, 02:50:33 pm »
Quote:

Now,

As I was who started this post, some of you think I started this to watch the arguments and fan the flames of SFB vs SFC 1,2,OP vs SFC 3. WRONG.






Very true. However, slight problem. Before you can create a new game and figure out what kind of features you want in it, you must first decide what kind of game it will be. This in essence is what the SFC2 v 3 arguments are about. The game systems appeal to different types of people IMO and are in large respect incompatible with each other.

NannerSlug

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #226 on: July 12, 2003, 03:04:45 pm »
i think crimmie is right to a degree.. i dont think a split product line can be supported - but it is the best way to resolve certain issues.

regarding ths:

 
Quote:

 Again, SFC design decision. SFB simulates this by adding in small target modifiers and nimble ship bonuses. These in EAW and OP are either only partially implimented or not implimented at all. Why don't we try something like this first? AV represents a revolutionary change in the way combat works, and as my first post outlines, many, including myself, despise it.




sfb is based still on range breaks and its all pure die role.. the "modifiers" again, are based on die role - and most of the stuff is based on turn modes and what not.. which make perfect sense for a board game - but is completely different from what i am talking about - and those modifiers apply only to fighters (the +1 ecm shift). this still does not do what i am talking about/seeking..

sfb does not cover:

*mass/turn mode or speed of a ship based upon its weapon load out. if you are a fed you are with CAs being slow turning ships on their D class turn radius.. even if your ship only has phasers.. it doesnt matter if i am in a CB or CA..  also, all ships cannot go faster than speed 31.

*tactical warp. this is more of an sfc thing - which is what we are talking about - sfc1/2/op seem to be based more on impulse speed - not warp speed. i love tactical warp in sfc3.

*true power managment. this might be more of an sfc oriented situation. before, best thing i could do is slide the capacitor down and prioritize power. in sfc3 - i can actually move power around. i am a power managment nut - i wish there were more power managment tools in sfc3 - down the exact system/weapon.

*the ability to overload or underload ALL weapons.

im sure there are a few other things ive left out.. and i know there are many things/details that sfb has that sfc3 does not in terms of fighters, missiles and rules.. but that is fine.. remember, its all about preferences. there are things in my mind that sfc3 does a lot better than sfc2 - and a few things that sfc2 does better.. (most of it has to do with detail work)

if sfc3 had some more detail work did it - like mass restrictions per hard point, first year available, last year available and a few more arcs - it would be a vastly different game.

whether or not people like it, it still comes down to a matter of preference. neither side really can claim superiority simply because it really is all about preferences - but thats what make these games unique.

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #227 on: July 12, 2003, 04:00:52 pm »
 
Quote:

 sfb does not cover:
*mass/turn mode or speed of a ship based upon its weapon load out. if you are a fed you are with CAs being slow turning ships on their D class turn radius.. even if your ship only has phasers.. it doesnt matter if i am in a CB or CA.. also, all ships cannot go faster than speed 31.




Well since customization is tightly controlled by the SFB refit rules you don't have HUGE mass changes within the same class between varients.  There should not be a significant difference in a CB vs. a CA when it comes to overall maneuvering performance.  They are both based on the same hull and use essentially the same warp engines.  The hull and engines of a ship is most of the mass compared to the ship systems.  The "delta" in mass due to a system upgrade would not change the overall mass of the ship enough to change the class's overall maneuvering performance.

If these system mass deltas were huge then you're talking about a significant overhaul.  Kind of like going from an old Constitution class CA to the Enterprise class CA from TMP.  You required a refit that takes months and months to complete before you would see significant mass changes.  Essentially you should only see significant mass differences between classes, not within the same class.

This is why I have such a big beef with ship customization in SFC3.  It seems kind of absurd to yank out a warp core and slap in a new one between missions.  I can see minor refits between missions, but not overhauls.

Without customization we would not have to worry about significant turn mode differences between anything but classes.

As far as speed 31 is concerned....what's the big deal?  In Star Trek you can't go faster than warp 10.    

The_Infiltrator

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #228 on: July 12, 2003, 04:56:53 pm »
I'll add that the example of Mechwarrior is similar to this. Mechwarrior allows you to slap whatever you want basically on your mech. In BATTETECH, however, this is impossible. A refit or rebuild of this nature would take months and a significant amount of cash. The only time that this is considered is usually in mercenary units, since they own their own rides. The other examples are Omnimechs. These are quite similar to option mounts in SFB on pirates, in that you can only put certain configuations/equipment in certian places.

Which is superior? Well, I've always liked battletech.

SSCF-Patterson

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #229 on: July 12, 2003, 08:12:25 pm »
Now here we go:

I said before I would read the posts and come up with a cross section of people to help with the primary aim of this thread. And that is to come up with a ideas for the next SFC game.

I feel from the posts I've read would best represent a good and fair cross section of the community:

Cpt. Chaos, Ifrit, Tulwar, Nannerslug, KoraH, Cleaven, TraceyG, Hypergol, Holocat, and SSCF-Day.

I would ask that the following consider the following proposal.

   That the above meantion members of the Star Trek/SFC gaming community, get together, discuss and come up with a game proposal that will appeal to all members of the Star Trek/SFC Community.    

Now some still wonder why I am tilting at windmills here. Well, some of meantioned that seperate games should be produced to satisfy the two camps that have sprung up since the inception of SFC 3. However, simple economics dictate that no company will produce a two seperate games to satisfy two smaller buyer bases. So in other words, unless a producer can turn a profit, it will not be in their best intrest to produce anything for that particular buyer base.

I am still convinced that if we present a proposal from a unified community (not to meantion buyer base for the company) then the SFC series and Star Trek games as a whole will continue to be produced.

Those distingused members that I've asked to participate could you please let me know in this thread.

Regards to all.

 

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #230 on: July 12, 2003, 09:55:55 pm »
 
Quote:

 simple economics dictate that no company will produce a two seperate games to satisfy two smaller buyer bases. So in other words, unless a producer can turn a profit, it will not be in their best intrest to produce anything for that particular buyer base.
 




This thread got me thinking about the implications of the recent Activision dumping of their Trek liscense.  I even made a separate thread to document my thoughts.

I believe there is a good chance that economics will again split the Trek liscense up and several companies will again own "parts" of the Trek universe and more than one company will be making Trek games in the future.  No company will want to buy up the entire Trek liscense after what Activision found...i.e. it's too expensive to own it all for what you are going to get back from the games you make.  It's better to buy just a portion of the liscense for a cheaper price because the games you make have a better chance of providing a return that exceeds what you paid for the liscensing.

For this reason I think it's almost certain that the SFC product line would have to slit if more SFC games are made.....with the SFC1,2,OP SFB based flavor going to whoever owns the TOS liscensing and the SFC3 TNG flavor going to whoever owns the TNG liscensing.

Based on the sales figures and on what remains most popular today I would venture a bet that if there is anymore SFC made it will be of the previous SFB based flavor.  SFC3 just didn't do well enough for a company to continue that line of SFC.

So perhaps we should refocus this thread on what aspects of SFB, i.e. Andros and Tholians, and Federation and Empire, should be encorporated into a future SFC4 Galaxies at War.  This game is more likely to be produced based on today's liscensing situation.  

Yes I'm serious here.  Think about it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2003, 10:00:44 pm by Mr. Hypergol »

SSCF-Patterson

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #231 on: July 12, 2003, 10:06:47 pm »
Read your thread Mr Hypergol. Is it possible? Yes

But would you be intrested in participating on the proposal I've intended?

Even if the split you propose occurs, the new company may still want feedback. And if we go with a template it stands a better chance.

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #232 on: July 12, 2003, 10:25:46 pm »
 
Quote:

 But would you be intrested in participating on the proposal I've intended?
 




Sure.  I'll provide input as requested.  I just think we need to focus our efforts on what is most likely......i.e. continuing the SFC1,2,OP line.  The SFC3 line is a clear dead end with our current liscensing situation.  

Rod O'neal

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #233 on: July 12, 2003, 11:22:14 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

As far as doing away with the D6 to determine hit/damage probability. The formula has to be kept simple enough that the player, not just the computer, has an idea of how much damage can be expected at different ranges, etc... As an example, in SFB you can pretty well estimate the damage that you're going to get/give at a particular range. This allows you to decide at what range(s) you want the battle to take place at. Much of the tactics then revolve around maneuver to get into your desired firing position and keep your opponent out of their's.    




This leads to the intresting question as to whether you wish a random factor in what your hit and how hard you hit.  If so, generally how do you think it should be determined?  If not, why not?  




Yes, there has to be a random factor. If not then you end up with, "Player A flying Ship B executes maneuver C against Ship D and wins EVERYTIME. No matter what the Capt. of ship D does." How do you put it in? Well you make the weapons have a chance of missing entirely, and have variable damage is how they do it in SFB. If the game isn't based on SFB then do it some other way, if you'd like.
For the record, I don't have a problem with 1000 Trek games being made that have nothing to do with SFB. I probably won't play them, but you can make, and sell as many as you want to. I just want to play SFB on my computer. Before anyone tells me to join a PBEM SFB group, that's not what I mean.
When I first played SFC2, I didn't have SFC1, I was estatic that I could actually play SFB on my computer. After a time though, I started wanting to use tactics that weren't included in the game. Only a very small portion of SFB is included in SFC. I for one would be willing to pay for expansions that added more of the rules to SFC. A couple of times a year release an expansion that adds whatever Taldren can manage to code into the game in that period of time. If they wanted to draw a from a bigger base than the fans like me who are willing to pay for incremental improvements then they'd probably have to add races etc... It would be more work and I'm not sure if they could charge enough and sell enough to make it worthwhile to do.
If what you're interested in are ideas for a completely new game, that's OK too. Just tell me/us and I will  quit wasting your time. No inference or sour grapes intended.      

NannerSlug

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2003, 11:39:04 pm »
its just as dead as any other option hyper.. in fact, i would say that sfc3 is a more open ended option simply because its more modable.. but hey, that is another opinion.

Cleaven

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2003, 11:39:22 pm »
The biggest problem here is a matter of who actually owns what. I can count the interests of at least five groups being involved here, when you start discussing new products based on old ones. Paramount/Viacom, ADB, Interplay, Activision and Taldren. There may be others. I would make sure everybody in this parade has a golf umbrella.  

(and a good pair of wellies)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Cleaven »

mbday

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #236 on: July 13, 2003, 03:23:21 am »
I ready to do what it takes to get somehting ready to show to any company for the next SFC or Star Trek game.
 

Tulwar

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #237 on: July 13, 2003, 05:05:38 am »
Something that would please everybody?

That would be difficult.  SFC3 was stripped of everything I liked about SFC, yet some people really enjoy it.  My lack of understanding of the appeal of SFC3 makes it impossible for me to concieve of something that will work for that camp.

The fact that the studios did not feel any complution to maintain continuity between TOS and TNG does not help.  An example would be basic starship architechture.  The Klingon K'T'Inga fired photon torpedoes from the same place the D-7 had its main deflector dish,and  the Reliant had no main defector while the Enterprise still devoted a huge section to this device.

The only way I could see a streamlined interface work for me is if it automated functions, rather than eliminating functions.  The match speed function in SFC3 was an actual improvement.  The fact that once you reinforced a specific shield, you had to reinforce a specific shield for the rest of the mission did just the opposet.

The one aspect of SFC that always bothered me was that it was too much of a first person shooter.  The opperation of any single ship in close combat is far too involved for much in the way of fleet control.  The only way to improve this aspect is by actively promoting fleets.

As soon as SFC came out, people started organizing fleets.  The fleets started using BC or RW to communicate in game, so more complicated tactics could be employed.  A Dynaverse where participating fleets could have greater control of their empires do much to these ends.

I have only seen one disparaging comment about a Harpoon-like game, but I don't know if anybody could concieve of the difficultly of juggling hundreds of starships in dozens of battle groups.  I don't know if it would be possible to do that in multi-player.

An improved Dynaverse could actually do this without making a game for us hard-core war-gamers.  Create rules for information sharing and detection.  While between missions, individual captains could choose between active scanning, passive scanning, and using a cloak.  Information could be shared between units, so a scout could stalk targets for main battle units.  It would be nice to know where your starbases are, and not blunder around the map blindly.  Territory could be conquered by simply setting up a listening post.  The number, and typed of missions would be defined by what was actually out there to fight.  One should not have to play a mission in unguarded space to take it.

The player should have the option of choosing between commander's, captain's, and admiral's rulesets, plus difficultly factor.  This would allow the uninitiated to work thier way up to the "real game."

I would like to see the timeline between TOS an TNG brought togeter.  I would like to see the game hinted at in SFC2, i.e. SFC GAW.  If I had that game, I would be very open to a TNG game that threw the SFB rules out the window, but not one as poorly executed as SFC TNG.

I'm trying not to flame here, but what I wish to get acorss is that my most serious problem with SFC3 has nothing to do with rulesets, AV or the TNG setting.  Music, skins, and stabily (especially single player stablity) are important quality issues.  Also, If there is to be an "all new" game, it needs to be a new game.  SFC3 looked to me as if somebody had merely slapped Activion's Starship Creator into a stripped-down version of OP, with a control lay-out that appeared to be avoiding copyright infringments more than providing playablity.  I hated having to put the disk in my computer to play the game.  Putting that disk in my computer made me feel dirty, like I had been used.  Of course I was disappointed that it meant there would be no GAW, but I'm angry about paying $50.00 for a game that doesn't even run with my SiS AMD chipset!

The major driver, from Activision's veiwpoint is that they want to stay current with what is showing on television and in the theatres.  Their timing for a TNG game was a bit late.  Marketing was too far ahead of development.  SFC TNG was released unfinnished without allowing Taldren to produce the game that had obviously been planned.  They simply combined assets to put together a product they could sell in short order, at the end of TNG's run.

A publisher should  recognise that SFC did not come into being over-night.  It is based on a boardgame that has survived over a quarter of a century. ST TNG will be in syndication for decades.  This means ST products will be markable for the forceable future.  I think Taldren was working alone these lines, and deleberately left a number of things out of SFC2 so that they would include them in future titles.  A wise buisness move for Activision would have been to continue that line, learning to blend the rulesets that they created for their own games into SFC as it matured.  Hades!  Even and old SFBer like me would want to drive a Galaxy-Class cruiser, eventually.  The game would grow slowly as more markets opened.  Of course, players would drift away, but aunts and uncles would buy the new title for nieces and nephews.

It appears that OP was meant to be SFC3 GAW, but was rushed into production while Taldren still had the rights to produce it.  It appeared to the SFC community as "half a game," so few people bought it.  It should spent more time in production.  SFC TNG should hve spent a lot more time in production.  To be fair, SFC3 is very good for the speed at which it was produced.  Whatever Taldren does next, should not be rushed!

What could I say about a product that would please both camps?  I only know what I want.  I want a good strategic game.  I want to order ships around, or just be a part of that.  I want a game where I have to think about more than the target I'm aiming at.  The last thing I want is a game that is more of a first person shooter.  There are other titles that do that.

Did I mention that I want SFC GAW?  

Cleaven

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #238 on: July 13, 2003, 06:32:24 am »
I'm surprised to see comments about music. First thing to do after starting any game is go to the configurations, turn down/off the music, and make sure the voice comms program works.
 

Mr. Hypergol

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Re: HELPING TO DESIGN A BETTER MOUSE TRAP
« Reply #239 on: July 13, 2003, 07:31:31 am »
Hey.....if we make a "Harpoon-like" game in the Star Trek universe, can we call it...."Photon"?