Topic: New cloak not working as advertised

[David Ferrell]

Sh... I mean shoot.  Your right of course.  FireSoul had a valid opinion,
Strafer *never* has a valid opinion.

Thanks,

Dave  

[FireSoul]

ROFL!  

[Sethan]

- Cloak was changed - this is good, as cloak was rarely useful before.

- Change was toward SFB - this is a good start, as SFB was fairly balanced where many things are concerned.

- Change didn't go as far as intended - this may be good, as one of the cloak features of old (ECM effects) might have made cloak too powerful if the change had gone all the way (it may be too powerful even now, haven't had the chance to test it yet - all my free playing time is going to LB4).

Overall - a good thing.  The bug needed to be pointed out, and it was.  I look forward to trying out the new cloak.



 

[Tumulorum Fossor]

Echoing Sethan.  'Bug' needed to be reported.  Good thing that it is.

Does 'bug' NEED to be 'fixed'?  I dunno.  Good reason to expect NOT.  If it's an easy fix, I'd welcome it, but current SFC cloak is SO MUCH BETTER that I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.  And I'm so thrilled over the support from Dave Ferrell (whom I hope is enjoying Comic Con... How do those Kingdom Come action figures look?) and the testers for this patch in the FIRST PLACE that I tread VERY carefully in this area because I do not want us, as a community, to come off as ingrates and not appreciative of just how remarkable the latest patch is.

If this is the worst thing about this patch, consider us all lucky.

And I do agree that no one should get their head torn off for simply REPORTING the existence of the cloaking "alternative method of damage calculation" (I hesitate at this point to continue calling it a 'bug').  That's a legitimate topic and effects game tactics.  Indeed, if no 'fix' arrives, I would be happy simply knowing exactly WHAT the probabilities are of damage with the cloak on, just for the sake of tactics.

I'd just urge all my fellow SFC OPer's to, when reporting bugs after this latest patch, and there will ALWAYS be more bugs, to be extremely diplomatic about it as it is remarkable that we have a game that is old, has a rabid fan base, AND devoted developers.  Let's not screw up whatever amazing cosmic karmic resonance that was needed for this to occur.

Anyhow, based on TarMinyatar's evaluation, are we reasonably sure that what is happening is 67% full damage, 33% half damage?

-TF

[FireSoul]

Yes, but Tar also mentioned that the weapons are doing effective range damage, not true range damage (I didn't realize that either during testing). Also, ECM can be used at the same time as the protection (which isn't supposed to happen).

.. wow.. bugs that cancel each other out.

[TarMinyatur]

This bug is a big deal if your opponent tends to have an abundance of  Phaser-1's and Photons. These two weapons benefit the most from this weak cloak chart. On the other hand, Disruptors and Hellbores are already penalized for attenuated damage. Adding the documented cloak chart to them would clearly be unfair. You could do 1 point of damage with an overloaded Dizzy or 4 points with an overloaded Hellbore. That's pathetic. Cripes, you do more damage to yourself in feedback!

Speaking hypothetically here...can the true range be used to calculate the initial damage for Disruptors and Hellbores against cloaked ships (i.e. the SFB method)? It would seem to solve the double-whammy that would occur with implementing the documented cloak chart. Since feedback already works on true range in SFC, one would think the code could use true range with a IsTargetCloaked() check when calculating damage after using the effective range for determining hit%.

Anyways, the Ph-1 is what really kills cloaked ships in SFC. It is still 83% as effective as it was. This is where an R*2 + 6 tweak would come in handy.

Regardless, thanks for looking into the cloak. It will be used more often which I think everyone will agree is a good thing.

-

Edited for an inaccurate claim.

[SPQR Drall]

First off,

Thanks for the effort from everyone involved.  Taldren did not have to do this.  Kudos!

For the bug, reporting it is ok.  The bug is not the end of the world.  As a Rom I'll take what I can

Now, there is one question that I've been trying to figure out since the specs of the patch came out.  I never posted it not too sound ungrateful, but then again, I'd like to understand it at some point.

The decision I don't understand is to shorten the flash cube time.  I have been playing Rom a long time and I am a PvP kinda guy.  The reason I never use the cloak in PvP is the flash cube.  Reducing the time of the flash cube doesn't help in any way since the tractor starts instantly.  So, I will be able to use the cloak at a distance to shake out drones, but against players I still have the same Achiles heel.  For the last 2 years I always thought, "damn, it they take away the flash cube, then I can use the cloak in PvP.  I think I still can't.

Did I miss anything?  Am I wrong?

I will go test this on GSA with fellow Roms, but I am pretty sure that a guy dropping speed because he engages the cloak that can still be flashcubed will not live long and prosper.

I am really curious to understand the rationale here.  Do not get me wrong, I appreciate the added benefits, but I was ok against AI already but I did hurt against players.  I think it will not chnage that a lot.  On PvP testing, did you guys really found that the Roms relying on cloak strategies were now more dangerous?

Again, I am happy about the improvements and I am sure the X-ships will benefit a lot.  I just would like to get this one.

Again, thanks for the patch!


SPQR Drall

P.S. Yes Nanner, I know...again I appreciate the patch, I am not petitioning for a change I just want to understand.
P.P.S Saved you a post

[SPQR Renegade001]

Flash & Grab will still be a problem for us, but little more so than when out from under cloak. The tractor can still be countered with repel trac or a WW, and ECM will still effect the D-fire weapons. In our favor with the new patch, is that the cloak can be fully engaged while were trying to break the tractor, and only the anchoring ship benifits from the anchor. Other ships still fail their target locks.

[David Ferrell]

Confirmed.  
Actual chart:
66.7% does 100% damage.
33.3% does 50% damage.

Thanks,

Dave  

[Holocat]

Is the actual chart for overloaded photons only, all photons only, all direct fire heavy weapons only, all direct fire weapons only, or all weapons, direct or non?

Curiousity only kills slow moving cats that forget to stay away from plasma,

Holocat.

[David Ferrell]

Chart is for all weapons.

Thanks,

Dave  

[Sethan]

Quote:
The reason I never use the cloak in PvP is the flash cube....

<snip>

...For the last 2 years I always thought, "damn, it they take away the flash cube, then I can use the cloak in PvP.  I think I still can't.

The flash is necessary, IMHO - it is the only method for forcing a ship out of cloak.  If there were no way to flash a ship, it would be possible for a Rom or pirate to enter a battle, cloak, and just sit there, (virtually) invulnerable.

Without the ability to flash a cloaked ship, if the cloaker has a ship with a fair amount of spare power (or if the opponent ship is small), there would be no way to do enough damage through the cloak to force a ship out of it.

That would allow a cloaker to prolong a battle indefinitely.

[Holocat]

Alright, so the calculation for cloak is now true range at (R+5)*2 with 1/3 of the damage cut in half, including seekers and plasma that maintain lock?

while were on this slightly off topic topic of weapon damage, I accidentally trolled through WeaponDamage.txt as well, and found this:

Quote:

Seeking weapon 1070,Damage reduced by 0.500000 due to ECM SHIFT

Does this mean a positive ECM shift will cut damage by half a point, or by half its total damage?  Do greater shifts cut damage in greater percents?

Pawing about,

Holocat.

[FireSoul]

Quote:

The reason I never use the cloak in PvP is the flash cube.

Flash Cubing is a standard SFB tactic that made it into SFC2. It's my opinion that it's supposed to be there, and it has to be part of any player's tactics in PvP.
In otherwords... use your negate tractor more.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

"Flashing" of cloaked ships dates back to TOS: The Balance of Terror, which was the birth of the Romulans and the cloaking device. When the Enterprise fired its "proximity phasers" (really photons) and they exploded, you could see the image of the cloaked WB for an instant.

In ST3:TSfS, Kirk and Sulu could see the cloaked BoP with the naked eye on the viewscreen from the distortion it made against the starfield.

The cloak is not, nor was it ever meant to be an all-powerful, "Uber" weapon.

Thats reserved for Fed ships with 100% RE-VER-SE and magic photons.  

HAND!
 

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
Alright, so the calculation for cloak is now true range at (R+5)*2 with 1/3 of the damage cut in half, including seekers and plasma that maintain lock?

while were on this slightly off topic topic of weapon damage, I accidentally trolled through WeaponDamage.txt as well, and found this:

Quote:

Seeking weapon 1070,Damage reduced by 0.500000 due to ECM SHIFT

Does this mean a positive ECM shift will cut damage by half a point, or by half its total damage?  Do greater shifts cut damage in greater percents?

Pawing about,

Holocat.  

Holocat, that "Damage reduced by 0.5" is only found in single-player games. For some unkown reason to me, seeking weapons always do full damage in multi-player, regardless of the ECM shift. This is a benefit that plasma chuckers (and drone slingers) enjoy. However, the best defense against these weapons is usually speed. Only starbases should consider using this tactic to reduce damage in single-player since they're immobile.

Here's how it works:

Add the ECM shift to a die roll...

Result: Effect on warhead (missile, plasma, suicide shuttle)
1-6: Full damage
7-8: Half damage
9: Quarter damage

As you can see, it is an unreliable approach to dealing with seeking weapons. A shift of +1 only provides a 16% chance of suffering half damage (e.g. 6 from a Type-I missile). 83% of the time you'll still take full damage (ouch!). A shift of +2 is a bit better though harder to manage (especially vs plasma since they have 3 ECCM built-in) with sensor-derived ECM. A good trick is to toggle Erratics just before getting hit to get a quick burst of 4 ECM (and thus a +2 shift). Again, this only applies to single-player.  

[TarMinyatur]

Quote:
Chart is for all weapons.

Thanks,

Dave  

Except the ESG of course.

ESG always does full damage since it seems to flash the ship first (negating the chart), then hits it.

The PPD might still do damage based upon the current target (which may not be the same as the initial PPD target...a nasty exploit which is easy to do in team matches).

[David Ferrell]

Too true.

Being ramming weapons, both the ESG and ESG Lance are unaffected.

PPD should be fine.

Thanks,

Dave

[Corbomite]

Quote:
Too true.

Being ramming weapons, both the ESG and ESG Lance are unaffected.

PPD should be fine.

Thanks,

Dave  

What about Maulers?

[David Ferrell]

Maulers are reduced as they should be.

Thanks,

Dave