Topic: Day of the Eagle: The Return of Herr Burt

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Hey Diehard (with a Vengenance), I doubt that there is going to be too much cheese since he did state that the timeline would be for the years 2273 to 2277.   The BCH's don't come out until much later.   Plus which, knowing Herr Burt like I do, he will surely keep the ships vanilla-ish since that is the style of campaign he typically likes.   The fighters for the Gorn and Romulan's will problably be based on SFB specs, so PF shouldn't even come into play.   Then again, I could be wrong.

   

Seriously, SFB fighters?  Does anyone want REAL F-14s in this game?  I sure as hell don't.

I didn't play on the 4 powers war because I knew it would be lopsided.   There is no way to balance a campaign like that out in a D2 because the Klink ships of that era sucked ass on a one-for-one basis.  Didn't Herbert make Command ships (which are by no means cheese) by making them more expensive?   What happened?  Didn't people wait and buy them any way?

If you want a balance campaign like this, you have to restrict the cheese.  What's stopping the Feds from all flying CADs and mucnching the entire map without even needing to win a PvP fight?

Please, the Federation, Gorn and Romulan Command Crusiers are all relatively balanced in terms of AI killing speed and PvP ability.  What the heck does adding more cheese accomplish?

<snip>

Amen, Brother....


I was there (4 Powers).  It was ugly. ..and YES, people still got the ship they wanted, they just had to wait longer.  Problem was, a a Klingon, flying an F5C was bad enough....due to mission matching, flying anything larger was akin to suicide.


Amen on the rest, too. I think in a campaign like the one proposed, our honorable Fed friends could do without their CADs and NCDs, but even if they are let in...maybe this would be the perfecxt opportunity to allow any ship, but only ONE ship.





 

[SPQR Renegade001]

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  Seriously, SFB fighters?  Does anyone want REAL F-14s in this game?  I sure as hell don't.
     

 If they are restricted to SFB speeds then sure.    

I tend to agree with the Gentlegorn in the tutu. Per SFB, Rom GSF fighters ran at (IIRC)speed 12 without their warp packs. They were better at pursuading the Feddies to NOT go somewhere than they were at hunting then down and killing them. Even with their packs, their speed would only be 24 (at the cost of half their damage points). F-14s were faster, but not by much. If the speeds are toned down to these levels, I see no issue with bringing in the SFB fighters.

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  In reading the description of the Fed CAD in the SFB rulebook, it states that there really was only 1 CAD in the whole fleet.  That means this ship should most definately be put into rarified status to the extreme.  

On the topic of the SFB/F&E OOBs, a point to remember is that in a heavy night's gaming, we can chew through the F&E ship allocation for the entire General War. We should keep an eye on what is rare, but IMO only one ship should be treated as unique: the B10 (Really there were 3, but only one entered full service). I like the way AToK limited the capital hulls (I'm not talking about distribution. That's another thread),
When it comes to the other rare ships, I have to believe that pricing and shipyard rareity can work. If 4 corners still had issues with too many players flying the specials, then the pricing wasn't exaggerated enough. There must be a point where the PP cost of flying a CC over a CA is no longer worth it. Is it worth a 30% premium to fly an F-CC solo, when the CA is only lacking the rear phaser array? The same could be said for the KRCS vs. KR7B. How much are 2 plas-D really worth, before players will choose the ship of the line for solo play?  

[FatherTed]

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In reading the description of the Fed CAD in the SFB rulebook, it states that there really was only 1 CAD in the whole fleet.  That means this ship should most definately be put into rarified status to the extreme.  

It's also fair to point out that the D5D and D6D were pretty restricted too. The D5D, while intended as a direct combat ship, never amounted to more than 20% of the total D5 production line, and the D6D was reserved for bombardment and fleet actions and almost never patrolled alone. But if you log onto any serious server, it's a rarity to find a Klink flying anything else prior to the C7.  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

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It's also fair to point out that the D5D and D6D were pretty restricted too. The D5D, while intended as a direct combat ship, never amounted to more than 20% of the total D5 production line, and the D6D was reserved for bombardment and fleet actions and almost never patrolled alone. But if you log onto any serious server, it's a rarity to find a Klink flying anything else prior to the C7.  

Since there won't be any klingons on this server go ahead and cut all the D5Ds and D6Ds out of the shiplist along with the Fed CAD

[Sfaret]

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Agave said:
To prevent this from turning into a complete hex-munching fest, I suggest a french-vannilla ship list with nothing more exoctic than a command crusier (Make the BCHs available when/if the year is right).  No carriers, bombardment ships, or any other cheese.  But I know that is just a pipedream      

Hail my old friend. In this matter I must disagree. For the scenario described Carriers are a must at least in the way used by the federation. The Carrier MacAurther was the backbone of the federation offensive. The key is not to ban certain ships but to limit their availability.

For example in terms of carriers I suggest only two be allowed for the federation. In this way they become very valuable. I do agree that many cheese ships should be removed but it is important to make sure the main ships from the historical prespective are at least represented.

S'faret

[FatherTed]

Don't misunderstand me, I am not a fan of Fed drone boats. Actually, I dislike pure drone boats period. I was simply pointing out that if you restrict one side's cheese, you should restrict everybody's. That being said, I'm thinking of bringing back Father Bruce for this server. What do I need besides beer, a few chocodiles, and a bottle of Tequila? I am a man of the cloth, so I will not wear a tutu.  

[Remiak]

And it is only the eastern portion of the federation.
I interpret this as the Federation fleet assigned to the Fed/Rom border plus any reinforcment from the reserve fleet would be part of the order of battle.
So it would be possible that some units from the Federation shipyard are not available as they are assigned in other conflict in another theater taking place in the portion of their territory out of the campaign map.
On the other hand, the Gorns and Roms would be in this conflict with all they can muster.  

And for the MacArthur being a critcal unit in the offensive against the Roms, it was. I do not remember by heart but I think it was a little later than the proposed time frame of this campaign. The day of the eagle was the openning of the war and the CVA MacArthur's crash into the Rom Homeworld marked its end. I do not know when that CVA started to be active there.  

Lots of comments...it is good to see that people are interesrted by the idea of the campaign.  

[Iaidoka]

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Iaidoka, I hear (read) what you're saying. But, would you really want to go back to zero restrictions? Players with 3 CVAs? Or 3 D5Ds or 3 AD5s, or 3 NEC/NAC/NCD+, 3 PFTs, 3 KDPs, even 3 BBs ? etc.

I'm not trying to be more restrictive. I'm trying to be less restrictive. 1 ship per player - you can fly carrier, droner, escort, whatever (hopefully with the AOTK DN rule, relaxed so that it's voluntary! ). I know you promote massed fleets for base assaults. Teamwork can achieve the same thing.  

Of course I'm not suggesting we go back, and there was nothing in my post that even came close to that suggestion, but how can you fail to see restricting my choice to fly multiple ships as less restrictive than what we have now?  It is clearly more restrictive.  It is simipler yes, but more restrictive.  

No.  2 players with 2 ships cannot achieve what 2 players with 4 ships between them can achieve.  It is not equivalent.

 

[KATChuutRitt]

I'm in agreement with the 1 player 1 ship and vanilla shiplist group.  A setup like that would promote more p vs p IMHO, esp with dreadnaught limitations.   I know there are some that enjoy the multi-ship fleets, but they have had their turn on most of the recent servers (if not all) so give the rest of us ours.  Some might like the carrier battle group bit and they are entitled to their preferences, but give me my equivalent of a simple ship of the line ala HMS Victory anyday, ships of wood and men of steel baby!!!  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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Seriously, SFB fighters?  Does anyone want REAL F-14s in this game?  I sure as hell don't.
   

If they are restricted to SFB speeds then sure.  

Think about it.  An F-14 with DOUBLE INTERNALS and boosterpacks would fly at speed 30 and have and be able to take 12 points of damage.  

[Mog]

Essentially, that's how Taldren's fighters are, so it wouldn't be that different. Although, you could guarantee that SFB deployment restrictions on the fighters would be generally ignored - e.g. : 1 in 3 Hydran fighters could be hellbore variants - in SFC every Hydran fighter is a hellbore variant.

I assume that we are not talking of having full sized drones on fighters? But using the Taldren fighter missiles? I actually have a SFB fighterlist.txt file, using Taldren fighter weapons.

Btw, I always wanted to fly the "Imperial Standard"

Oh, and Die Hard, if you fly Rom on this, I'll look forward to winging with you

[Remiak]

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Seriously, SFB fighters?  Does anyone want REAL F-14s in this game?  I sure as hell don't.
   

If they are restricted to SFB speeds then sure.  

Think about it.  An F-14 with DOUBLE INTERNALS and boosterpacks would fly at speed 30 and have and be able to take 12 points of damage.  

SFB is a different game...for each arguments made, one can bring another counter.....never ending, here is an exemple:

"F14 are fine if the t-bombs affect all units in their blast not just the lead fighter."

In other words, lets see what can bring balance to us regardless if it is "SFB compliant" or not.  

Thanks  

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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In reading the description of the Fed CAD in the SFB rulebook, it states that there really was only 1 CAD in the whole fleet.  That means this ship should most definately be put into rarified status to the extreme.  

It's also fair to point out that the D5D and D6D were pretty restricted too. The D5D, while intended as a direct combat ship, never amounted to more than 20% of the total D5 production line, and the D6D was reserved for bombardment and fleet actions and almost never patrolled alone. But if you log onto any serious server, it's a rarity to find a Klink flying anything else prior to the C7.  

Just as it's rare to find Feds in anything other than CADs and NCDs.     Well, of course until they can buy CVAs and BCGs or BCFs.  So what?  One uses the right/best tool for the job.  I assume that's common among my esteemed Federation counterparts as well.


I'd settle for making the CAD unique and limiting the production of D5Ds and D6Ds to more reasonable levels.  


The increased usage of drone ships amongst Klingons is a direct result of the harder mission packs.  Klingons are slow killers due to a weaker weapons suite than many races.  That means our missions times increase in the ED missions because we're faced with numerous targets pounding on our relatively weak hulls and shields.  It's very tough for a Klingon line ship to get the one or two quick kills needed to get through some of the tougher iterations of the ED missions.



To be truthful, I'd love it if some of my bretheren would follow my lead and decrease, if not do away with (as I have) the use of drone bombardment ships.  While they are often clearly the best value and the right tool for a given job, their use dulls other skills needed to fly Klingon.  However, when we are pitted in campaigns against both the Mirak, who obviously use drone ships, and the Feds, who also liberally use drone ships (and carriers), most often, the D6D or D5D is the best chance at survival, let alone success and perhaps ekeing out a PvP win if the opponent has poor drone defense skills (and there are plenty of those types out there).


Pehaps it's not the intent of some authors of messages on this subject, but I sure get tired of the back-handed swipes at Klingons in drone ships...as if the crap of other races doth not also stink.


 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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In other words, lets see what can bring balance to us regardless if it is "SFB compliant" or not.  

Thanks  

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You got it.

Balancing races does NOT happen by increasing cheese ever.    

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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It's a vicious cycle, we fly our droners to keep up with you and your droners whop are flying droners to keep up with us.

And we all have to do what we can to keep pace with the Mirak(when properly manned) who all fly droners.

So eliminate ALL dedicated drone/bombardment ships.   Problem solved.  Either that or tack on 50 to 100 points of BPV so they draw heinous AI.

The Mirak will still be the drone race as their "line" ships carry more drones.

So the ED missions were the cause of the Kilnks flying droners?    That is very funny.  

Let's face it, Feds, Klinks and Mirak have been equally guilty of flying bombarment ships for the explicately cheesey purpose of running missions quicker.   This is the cause of most of the imbalance in D2.  All 3 races are equally guilty in this regard and having a pissing contest over this is childish . . . .

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about a General War mini campaign involving the Federation, Romulans, and the Gorn.   If you want this to be balanced and PvP to be the important,  make the shiplist "french-vanillia" with nothing more exotic then command crusiers.   Maybe allow a few DNs using the Field Marshall rules from AOTK.  RDSL will have more than enough cheese to sooth everyones appetites.   I hope the cheese on that server is so thick that everyone vommits from it and comes to their senses.  

If you add fighters for the Romulans and Gorns, this will turn into another ridiculous carrier war.  It is better to take the Federation ones away (boy am I gonna get lynched in the CiC   )

Stock missions.   The ED ones have gotten really old.  Epic battles should be against other players not hoardes of AI.

Looking forward to flying Romulan.  I don't have to get the horrid haircut, do I?

Thank you HerBurtt, thank you Karnak, thank you for anyone who wants to get a campaign going while SFC2.net rebuilds.   Please get a server operational before I go broke or catch VD.

   

[Iaidoka]

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If you add fighters for the Romulans and Gorns, this will turn into another ridiculous carrier war.  It is better to take the Federation ones away (boy am I gonna get lynched in the CiC   )
 

I don't know.  I'm kinda looking forward giving fighters a shot.  Get a chance to see how the other side lives.  Could be cool.  Much better to give than take away.

[FatherTed]

Dog, I didn't mean to raise your hackles. All Klinks, but especially those who fly D5C's or even rarer, D7's are worthy of respect. That being said, most of us Feds prefer our photons. AOTC(Attack of the Cheese) was the exception, not the rule(I'd never flown seriously a drone chucker before, and I only fooled around with an SCS at the end of IDSL). Given my drothers, Day of the Eagle would be closer to Die Hard's vanilla shiplist than the customized stuff we saw. No bombardment ships, no carriers, just individual, standard ships of the line. This may be heresy, but why not try a server that cuts the cheese?  

[Karnak]

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Thank you HerBurtt, thank you Karnak, thank you for anyone who wants to get a campaign going while SFC2.net rebuilds. Please get a server operational before I go broke or catch VD.

I am learning to scuba dive this week so that I can be a certified frog-man in RL.  If I don't post here anymore next week, it means the sharks got me.:(

As for cheese issues, I think some leadership is needed from the server admins. The "cheese wars" have definitely got out of hand. I know of nutter Mirak GFL players that have given up on SFC2.net  servers due to the amount of flak they got over cheese, etc. Anytime a server starts losing nutter players then changes are needed:  no ifs, ands, or buts allowed, and end of discusssion.  

So, now that we agree changes are needed there are two ways I see in how cheese can be controlled:

1) Shiplist.   I got some help from concerned Feds in curtailing the PF OTT sit-rep in AOTK. So, Rom/Gorn PFs are back to 2/3 hard-points (ie. 4/5 Plasma Fs at once, c'mon...) and the R-THV and G-BCHV are down to 2 PFs.  I left the Lyrans alone because they need player enticement and they should be "ahead of the curve" on PF issues.  OK, so the Roms and Gorns are unhappy about it but I have to look at the bigger picture. The Feds were definitely out-classed in AOTK which indicated a fundamental break-down in the shiplist process used for that server.  You can always fly Fed...to be on the receiving end of the PF cruisers.

2) CnC rules. The droner ships of non-Mirak races should be more expensive than normal line ships to account for their rarity.  Since there is no clear consensus on a new set of CnC rulea without the whole D2 community lobbing nuclear posts at each other I'll stick with the old contract formulated in AOTK.  But, I do prefer to fashion the ships in such a way that the law of the battlefield will prevail regarding CnC rules so it will be in a players best interest not to fly ship X in lieu of Ship Y.

3)  I think the main point of the harder missions was to lengthen the missions times. So, going with a min. 2v2 or 3v3 patrol should alleviate that. Not fling the player into a 8v2 matchup from the get-go resulting in Klingons going for droners just to survive.

IMHO, the servers that lower the cheese will ultimately attract the most players.  Anyway, the ISC invasion, many thanks to the GFL for their support, will start in February.  

[Iaidoka]

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1) Shiplist.   I got some help from concerned Feds in curtailing the PF OTT sit-rep in AOTK. So, Rom/Gorn PFs are back to 2/3 hard-points (ie. 4/5 Plasma Fs at once, c'mon...) and the R-THV and G-BCHV are down to 2 PFs.  

Oh yes I quite agree.  Get those Gorn PFs back to 2 plasma per hardpoint.  We will definitely kick more butt once the AI is convinced that firing all 4 plasma is a silly waste of precious resources.   It tickles me to no end to see people suggest this as a way of toning the pfs down.  The sad part is once this is implemented and people realize their mistake, they will still cry foul.  I hope I'll be able to find a link to this post then to make sure they remember that it was not the Gorn or Romulans who insisted on this change.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

DieHard....


To a degree, you're right...previously, I think Feds, Klingons and Mirak HAD flown droners for mission speed purposes (even then, for differing internal reasons), however...with the advent of some of the ED missions, the continued use of drone bombardment ships (incredibly boring though it is) is due in large part, I think, to neccessity.  This is what I am meaning to say.

I don't fly them anymore and I never HAVE flown them much except during SFC2.NET 6.0, where I changed ships quite often, but used the D5D rather extensively.  As I said, I'd love it if my bretheren would go the same route, but many choose not to. Who can blame them?  Anyone else of any other race who can get their hands on one uses them.  

 I wonder what would happen if (with all due respect to my honorable Mirak friends) if all drone bombrdment ships were removed from the game and the Mirak were either given some new dog-fighters to compensate or they were removed as a playable race altogether (just once).  I wonder what new "imbalances" or cries of "cheese!" would arise?  If anyone thinks there wouldn't be any, then I have some beachfront property in Nogales, AZ to sell you.