Topic: So whats the hold up with SFC G.A.W

[Pestalence]

Well, like I stated above.. just the labor alone for coding, model rendering, gaining permissions and licenses.. roughly about 3 or 4 million for 1 year development... the weapons would have to be coded in.. extensive testing for balance, reworking the entire code to incorporate the new races into the game.. and so forth..

basically you are asking them to redevelope the entire game just to add a couple of races and weapons, to test against every race in every mission with every ship just for balance (if tested correctly)... I mean you are basically asking for a new game... even with source code available.. it would have to be seriously rewritten .. almost be better to start from scratch...

SFC 3 stripped previous code from OP.. however, there is hardly any of the Original OP code in SFC 3 because of all the changes Activision forced them to do.. so now you have in essence a New game engine with Kudos to OP enging...

Rod.. I know how bad you want things added.. but unless someone has 1 or 2 million for the time it will take to develope it properly.. I seriously doubt it will ever be done..

as for SFC 3.. your $300,000 you keep mentioning is -$300,000.. that is how much Taldren LOST on SFC 3... More than likely Taldren was given $2,000,000 to $3,000,000 for SFC 3 developement and with all the changes and Overtime, they wound up ~ $300,000 in the hole.. now if sales made that up in royalties.. i don't know....

Try researching on the net for the cost to develope a game... imagine you have a team of say 60 people.. 50 are paid $15 an hour, 7 Paid $20 an hour.. and 2 make salary that works out to ~ $25 an hour...

Now figure out the cost of labor based on a 40 hour work week where 50 employees get 1.5 times regular pay for overtime after 40 hours.. now figure roughly 8 hours a week overtime for 25 employees....

what is your labor for 1 year...

and this is not considering anything else, only labor costs...

where ever you are getting your numbers from Rod.. you need to re-read it again slowly and carefully...
 

[Rod O'neal]

OK. So the answer to my question is, "No Rod. Taldren didn't get paid 300,000 to develope SFC3. That's how much they lost."

As I stated I thought that I had read that was what they got paid, but I wasn't sure. I appreciate the answer to my question.    

[Age]

  Please look up at my first post in this thread and read it very slowly aswell as those in Admin.  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:


Try researching on the net for the cost to develope a game... imagine you have a team of say 60 people.. 50 are paid $15 an hour, 7 Paid $20 an hour.. and 2 make salary that works out to ~ $25 an hour...

 

So Taldren would be outsourcing development to India then? Try about $60-$70 bucks an hour for staff developers when you factor in benefits and overhead. I would think $15 an hour ought to be about right for the cute receptionist in the lobby though.  

[Age]

   Check my posting on page one !!!!!!! Check my posting on page one !!!!!      

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:
   Check my posting on page one !!!!!!! Check my posting on page one !!!!!        

It is not necessary for me to read your post in order to hijack this thread.  

The real problem with doing another SFC game at this point probably has more to do with Market saturation and therefore lack of demand, regardless of how low you can get things down on the expense side. That is not to say a game couldn't be done profitably per say, it is just that there are probably other projects with better margins and potential market demand that Taldren could be spending their time on. It is not about just being able to make a buck on a project, it is about putting your efforts into the project with the highest potential for returns. Not to mention all the licensing issues that are currently going on with the ST franchise, making another SFC game not as attractive a business plan as might be found with other projects.

Oh yeah, Pesty's $15 bucks an hour is about spot on for off shore development rates.

[Age]

  I am not trying to highjack it.I am just pointing out of they made it over seas the labour would cost would be less.Just think if you lost your computer in fire or theft along with your games disks.How would you ever get it back
considering they do not make these games anymore and If somebody was saving up to buy them and found out they were no longer in publication what are they to do ?What I am trying to say is that if kept on publishing them even today all the series that the publishers aswell as Taldren would be making money and there are more people playing these games than users in this forum they just do not want to be in here.

  I ask you agian how would you replace your game disks if they were stolen.destroyed or even damaged.What is someone to do to replace the game disk if they no longer in publication.I can only say that someones Star Fleet Cammand gaming days are over.I do agree with Pestalence if the made a new game in the USA but I don't think that is going to happen haven't you been keeping up with Taldrens news.What other flag is on Taldrens home page beside the US flag ?to the right .  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

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  I am not trying to highjack it.

Chill, I was joking around about MY hijacking of the thread.

Quote:

I am just pointing out of they made it over seas the labour would cost would be less.

And I was pointing out that Pesty's current breakdown of labor cost actually matched what it would be over seas, and the fact that the issue with making money on the game isn't really about expense, but more about market demand. A company can decided to make a game that they feel may sell a millions of copies or one that will sell a few hundred thousand, the cost would be realitvely the same to develop each regardless of where it is developed. Basically I an trying to give you a breif explanation of the product marketing that goes into the resource allocation decision that any company might make. Since they can only do so many projects successfully they are going to do the ones with the biggest market potential, regardless of the facts that the others might also be profitable but at a lower margin. It is about focus and not spreading yourself to thin.

Quote:

Just think if you lost your computer in fire or theft along with your games disks.How would you ever get it back
considering they do not make these games anymore and If somebody was saving up to buy them and found out they were no longer in publication what are they to do ?What I am trying to say is that if kept on publishing them even today all the series that the publishers aswell as Taldren would be making money and there are more people playing these games than users in this forum they just do not want to be in here.

And if it was profitable enough to maintain the overhead required to do this, they would I am sure. But my guess would be that for the few hundred consumers this would effect it ain't worth the trouble, the product life cycle is at an end. Remember it isn't about making any money, it is about making the smart big money in the most profitable markets, any of these chump change ventures only distracts from the core strategic marketing initiatives.

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  I ask you agian how would you replace your game disks if they were stolen.destroyed or even damaged.What is someone to do to replace the game disk if they no longer in publication.I can only say that someones Star Fleet Cammand gaming days are over.

Call the waaaambulance, Taldren is a business, not the SFC welfare provider.

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I do agree with Pestalence if the made a new game in the USA but I don't think that is going to happen haven't you been keeping up with Taldrens news.What other flag is on Taldrens home page beside the US flag ?to the right .    

Didn't Erik move to Korea to get the Taldren gobalization engines greased. I might have this mixed up, but I am guessing that like most fiscally responsible CEOs he will have to start considering over seas out sourcing if he hasn't already, because the competition sure is and the next game publisher that comes along looking for a bid on a dev shop to build their game will be doing what I do with all bids I receive and flipping to the last page.  

[Pestalence]

Quote:

Quote:


Try researching on the net for the cost to develope a game... imagine you have a team of say 60 people.. 50 are paid $15 an hour, 7 Paid $20 an hour.. and 2 make salary that works out to ~ $25 an hour...

 

So Taldren would be outsourcing development to India then? Try about $60-$70 bucks an hour for staff developers when you factor in benefits and overhead. I would think $15 an hour ought to be about right for the cute receptionist in the lobby though.    

I was just going with plain labor costs.. nothing else... and I was using that as an example.. and that is an extremely LOW figure for developer's pay.

 

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:

I was just going with plain labor costs.. nothing else... and I was using that as an example.. and that is an extremely LOW figure for developer's pay.

 

Yeah, even without overhead that is only about 25K annual salary. I was going with a fully loaded blended (average) developer/project manager rate of around 60K annual. Figure 1,675 billable (working) hours a year, plus a 2.1 multiplier to figure out the benefits and overhead loading. 25K a year is good pay in India though.

[TheSatyr]

Why do you think so many publishers are turning to East European Dev Companies? Lower costs.

Granted some of those companies have put out some good games,but alot of them were pure garbage.

Outsourcing may save money,but there's no gaurantee that the quality will be all that great.

[Age]

    Sorry for that misunderstanding.I really don't know to much of the game devlopement business but I do know about marketing and supply side economics.I will have to look into this I will talk to the game devlopement company here called X.
  .There is another possiblity that is if This company went puplic and went on the Nasdaq.This is just a thought though to bring in some investors.  

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:
Why do you think so many publishers are turning to East European Dev Companies? Lower costs.

I am not saying that outsourcing won't enhance profitability. What I am saying is that the enhanced profitability that could be gained from outsourcing wouldn't be enough to convince Taldren to do GAW, since the decision to make a game has to do with marketability. Outsourcing can be used to lower the cost of creating any game, so any good business man would choose to build the game with the best market potential regardless of whether it is done in house or outsourced. Some might then say "well with the labor flexibility offered by outsourcing, why not build all the games, big market or small, they can all make money, just some more than others".  This is because you can't do everything well (and I am not referring to the quality of the game, but rather the maximization of the profits of the game), instead a management team will need to focus on a limited number of projects and will most like focus on the ones with the biggest market potential. This is do to the fact that there is less risk of failure and more potential for profits with the large market products over the small market ones. All this is not to say that the SFC franchise won't someday regain a larger and more attractive market, it is just a little over saturated and played out right know. Hopefully this is cyclical and in a few years the market will be ripe for GAW and we will all get are wishes granted.

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Granted some of those companies have put out some good games,but alot of them were pure garbage.

Outsourcing may save money,but there's no gaurantee that the quality will be all that great.  

So what, MS Windows is a crappy OS, but a very profitable one. Quality of the product does not necessarily equate to profitability of the product, and game companies are in the business of making profitable games not necessarily quality ones. This statement is in no way a reflection of Taldren, as I think they have made several quality games, and have shown a level of support for their products that goes well beyond their competitors, even to the point of hurting their net. This is not an unusual trend in smaller startups, but as they mature and grow the pressers to produce profitable games will only increase and they will be left like all well managed companies chasing the bigger markets with larger upside potential. For a really good read on this type of trend by well managed companies check out The Innovator's Dilemma - by Clayton M. Christensen. Ironically, however, the theme of this book is that chasing the big market's can actually lead very well managed companies into extinction.

 

[Kroma_BaSyl]

Quote:
    Sorry for that misunderstanding.I really don't know to much of the game devlopement business but I do know about marketing and supply side economics.I will have to look into this I will talk to the game devlopement company here called X.
  .There is another possiblity that is if This company went puplic and went on the Nasdaq.This is just a thought though to bring in some investors.  

Which really makes my point about market potential. When seeking initial private financing an eventually a public offering, you are much likelier to attract investors, be they angel or institutional, if you have big market potential, as the reward must be rather substantial in order to justify the inherent risks involved with early stage financing.

And Age please understand I don't mean to be arguing with you so much as playing devils advocate to your proposition that they find a way to do GAW through lower cost structures. I don't have any hard facts as to the market potential of SFC (but a bit of intuition), and am merely putting forward a possible (and in my opinion very likely) reason why it won't happen via the mechanism you were proposing (lower cost structures).  However, that said, I would love to see GAW, and would gladly fork over $1,000 bucks for such a game, but then again I am an SFC junky, and Taldren would be nuts for making a business decision on resource allocation for a new product based solely on the desires of their fanboys.

[Crimmy]

Posted by Admin:

 

Quote:
 We know that you have been anxiously awaiting news on Black 9. We are sorry for the delay.
  Taldren's development of Black 9 is on hold for the moment.

We have had such an incredible amount of fan support for Black 9 that we look forward to sinking our teeth back into it soon.

We want to thank all of you for your support and patience.

The Taldren Team
 



Not to sound rude....but....just what the hell are you guys working on then?...nothing?

Care to sub out a few programers and a little OP sourse code?

[Pestalence]

Taldren is working on some projects that they are not at liberty to talk about....
 

[Age]

   Yes that is the way it is with companies that produce products they just like to keep us in suspenders.It to bad it not like the auto business where you will get a taste of whats tomorrow.  

[TheSatyr]

Ever heard of NDAs?

Taldren can't say what they are working on till the publishers either give them the ok,or announce it themselves.

[Age]

   The Truth is out there somewhere   ( I figured out your NDA saying No Dummies Allowed right)  

[Pestalence]

NDA stands for Non Disclosure Agreement.. it is a legal contract where the signer is not permitted to talk about a project or any aspect of a project unless given specific permission from the person or company that is owning or in charge of the project...

as such, I am under NDA with Taldren.. If Taldren told me what was going on.. then I could not pass on that information... and I am subject to a lawsuit if i violate my NDA...

If Taldren is working on a project and are under NDA.. they can't talk about the project until they recieve permission to do so... If they did talk about it before permission was given, then Taldren would be facing a lawsuit.. i don't think any of us wants that.