Topic: So whats the hold up with SFC G.A.W (Read 16130 times)

Davey E · « **on:** March 20, 2004, 10:08:05 am »

Hey all
Just thought i,d ask all you guys a few questions (if ya know the answers lol)

What is the problem with producing SFC G.A.W with the Tholians, Seltorians etc thrown in,
Yes a whole new game using the best of SFC2/OP/3

and

How much would it cost ?

I,m just curious - seems to me that there is a stack of peeps who would invest in this - I WOULD

So in general what are the problems in making G.A.W from 1-99 ???

Thanx all in advance for answers

Pestalence · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2004, 10:56:55 am »

Well to develope and produce a game is roughly about 3 to 5 Million US give or take a couple hundred thousand, not counting the price for the licenses.. as far as the Tholians and other races go.. it is a matter of Rights and Liscencing and whether or not the race is available...

then there is a time factor for for production: the publishing costs, packaging, advertising, burining costs.. etc...

this is of course not counting the personal time involved for developing a new game engine, conceptual incorporation of ideas into the enviroment.. etc.. it would be a lot of work... but the problem is not just that cost (3 to 5 million plus production).. but also the post release cost of support...

I think the project for GAW could be done for say around 9 or 10 million or so (Liscense and development and production cost) give or take post release support cost... that is if Taldren is willing to undertake the project ....

People just don't realize how much it costs to develope a game....

now imagine investing that much into a game... how many copies would you have to sell in order to break even??? let's say at $70 a copy.... then people demand support..... now consider the wages of those working, the overtime, testing, debugging time, etc... it is a lot of manpower hours...

but if you are willing to help in a good portion of $10 million for the development of GAW.. then I think it could be acomplished...

let's see there are 3200 members on this forum...

so 10 million devided by 3200 people...

everyone would have to contribute $3275 up front so the project could be worked on for the next year and a half....

I'm game, but I am sure that a vast majority of members on this board would either say no, or say that they couldn't afford that ammount.. as such... the cost would increase to those who are willing to pay for it.

this is just a simple look at the numbers on cost....

FFZ · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2004, 11:17:21 am »

Not to be obtuse, but three to five million to produce a game?

I think that number is just a tad high, no?

Why so expensive?

Pestalence · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2004, 11:41:32 am »

3 to 5 million.. no not too high...

consider Coprorate pricing on software..

hardware costs for the newest equipment to develope a game for the cutting edge tech to be able to support

the man hours of say 50 people hacking away at coding at 8 hours a day 5 days a week at $15 to $20 an hour lets go with $15 and hour x 40 hours a week.. that is $600 a week per person times 50 people that is $30000 a week.. times 52 weeks for 1 year of development.. that comes to $1,560,000 per year.. then the over time at 1.5 times hourly rate per hour overtime.... say an average of 5 hours overtime for half the employees per week..

so that is 1.5 * $15 = $22.5 per hour * 5 Hours = $112.5 per person per week * 25 employees (half the workforce) = $2812.5 per week * 52 weeks per year = $146,250 in overtime pay...

so now just in wages based off $15 an hour you are spending $1,706,250 for 1 year in development.. this is not counting those with higher paying positions.. this is just entry level coders...

Now add in the taxes for the Corp.. Insurance, govn't regulated requirements like workman's comp pay in.. etc...

then the electricity and water bills.. cost of office supplies.... then add in the employees who are making $20 or even $30 an hour....

Wow... that number just jumped...

so yes it does cost a lot to develope a game.. and the numbers are not exaggerated.. as my initial posting stated.. I said a year and a half.. however my numbers here.. though not complete.. only represent 1 year for entry level position...

and this in no way represents the advertising costs, printing costs of the cover, printing costs and binding costs for manuals, burning times for CD's, Distribution costs, stocking costs.. building rent.. etc..

not does it include permissions or licensing costs for the material to be used... and usually in Trek.. Licenses usually run in the million dollar mark or higher.. why do you think Activision sued Paramount????

the costs add up fast... I can keep adding things on, but I think I have shown the point..

Teeth_03 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2004, 01:30:03 pm »

If money wasn't an issue,would we still be able to get the licenses? The next game,if there was one,would prolly have TNG in it,and if i'm correct,the license for that is screwed up cuz of our favorite company,Activision.

Davey E · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2004, 02:04:31 pm »

Quote:

3 to 5 million.. no not too high...

consider Coprorate pricing on software..

hardware costs for the newest equipment to develope a game for the cutting edge tech to be able to support

the man hours of say 50 people hacking away at coding at 8 hours a day 5 days a week at $15 to $20 an hour lets go with $15 and hour x 40 hours a week.. that is $600 a week per person times 50 people that is $30000 a week.. times 52 weeks for 1 year of development.. that comes to $1,560,000 per year.. then the over time at 1.5 times hourly rate per hour overtime.... say an average of 5 hours overtime for half the employees per week..

so that is 1.5 * $15 = $22.5 per hour * 5 Hours = $112.5 per person per week * 25 employees (half the workforce) = $2812.5 per week * 52 weeks per year = $146,250 in overtime pay...

so now just in wages based off $15 an hour you are spending $1,706,250 for 1 year in development.. this is not counting those with higher paying positions.. this is just entry level coders...

Now add in the taxes for the Corp.. Insurance, govn't regulated requirements like workman's comp pay in.. etc...

then the electricity and water bills.. cost of office supplies.... then add in the employees who are making $20 or even $30 an hour....

Wow... that number just jumped...

so yes it does cost a lot to develope a game.. and the numbers are not exaggerated.. as my initial posting stated.. I said a year and a half.. however my numbers here.. though not complete.. only represent 1 year for entry level position...

and this in no way represents the advertising costs, printing costs of the cover, printing costs and binding costs for manuals, burning times for CD's, Distribution costs, stocking costs.. building rent.. etc..

not does it include permissions or licensing costs for the material to be used... and usually in Trek.. Licenses usually run in the million dollar mark or higher.. why do you think Activision sued Paramount????

the costs add up fast... I can keep adding things on, but I think I have shown the point.

Great reply Pestalence

Thanx

Now lets say some mystery benefactor who loves SFB comes along, He,s got say $12-15 mil spare

and he,s prepared to "Go For It"

Now the problems with going ahead IMHO just reduced 90%

What else could hold G.A.W up ?

Pestalence · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2004, 02:09:56 pm »

Actually all liscenses are up in the air.. but to my last understanding.. because of the litigation between Activision (who previouly leased all Trek gaming liscenses) and Paramount/Viacom (who Owns the Trek license) the license is on hold until either Activisions original contract runs out, or when the court makes a decision in the case.. Activision has publically announced giving up the license due to breach of contract.. but that claim goes both ways.. so the license for the time being is frozen... Activision had bought all the licenses for 5 years.. this is now going into year 3 of them holding the license contract (supposedly now voided).. so if the litigation continues.. then the license will remain frozen for the rest of this fiscal year plus 2 more years.

Hopefully the courts will free the license up for others to use soon.. if they haven't already...

FFZ · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2004, 03:19:16 pm »

That is quite interesting, all those costs. It is no wonder so many game companies fold.

Pestalence · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2004, 03:54:33 pm »

Exactly.. considering that if you are just being the developer and you have a separate publisher footing the bill for developement and production and distribution.. just to cover the developing costs at say 5 million.. the game would have to sell 71,429 copies at $70 a piece....

double that to cover the publication oand other costs involved.. so 114,258 copies at $70 a copy... to break even.. roughly... and only if the ammount went streight to the publisher.. but there is the 20% markup in the stores to make the title $70.. so let's look at how many copies actually have to sell to break even

$70 * 80% = $56 actual ammount back to publisher

so $10 Mil / $56 = 178,572 copies before a profit could be made.. the majority of profits after breaking even goes to the Publisher then royalties to the developer and the license holders out of that...

it is from the royalties which the developer pays for the patches to be made.. as such... most companies try to shoot for 1 or even 2 patches... Taldren has had a long history of 3 to 7 patches for a game when permitted to release the patches...

so in essence Taldren has taken a loss from SFC game support, but they are still here fighting for the gamers...

things look differently when you consider the cost involved don't it...

Pestalence · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2004, 04:01:01 pm »

BTW.. these are just my numbers in general.. I have no Idea what Taldren's actual budget is.. but my numbers cover several different gaming developers and not any 1 company.. I just use Taldren's name as an example since we are on their boards and is the easiest for me to reference to... although i couldn't imagine Taldren's budget being much different than oulined above... the majority of the cost is the manhours spent.. same goes for any profession....

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2004, 12:12:04 am »

Didn't Taldren do SFC3 for $300,000.00? I seem to remember that figure.

Age · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2004, 03:55:54 am »

That is unless they were to make it over seas.Where there is cheaper labour costs and benifits.There is another reason publishers lose money they just only sell the game for a short time it seeems to me 8 months and after that they stop publishing if they kept on publishing the games they would still be making money off them.Just Imagine if your computer was stolen along with the disks to your games or destroyed in fire.The computer you can replace the disk of the games you can not.It is not like your audio and video cd and vhs or dvd collection they can be replaced aswell.What is someone were to do if this happened you cannot buy these game in a store anymore so what is some to do?

This is why the publishers should never stop publishing them in maybe 5 or 6 years then yes or possibly 10.What is someone who saving up to buy a game considering they aren't as cheap as cds and when they have a enough saved up an find out the game is no longer in publication then what are they suppose to do?I guess anyone who loses thier game or can not buy it can always go to E-BAY and see if it is in there and put a bid on it but the asking bid could be to much in case of fire or theft the insurance company will only but out so much.I know my place was break and entered and they took all the electronic stuff 2 ,25 inch tv sets vcrs my stereo is almost 30 thirty old and they won't get much fot it they didn't bother with that and my jeans do you see what I am trying to say and a computer with all the software buy it is an easy target to B&E person.

This is why they should never stop puplishing Games you never what my happen.I hope you understand what I am saying.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2004, 03:02:09 pm »

taldren LOST over $300,000 on sfc3 if memory serves me correctly.

what pestelance wrote is right.

TheSatyr · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2004, 04:35:28 pm »

It would also help if there was a publisher that wanted an SFC GAW. Taldren can't fund it on their own.

Unfortunately,since the SFC series isn't much of a moneymaker I really don't see another SFC ever being made,regardless of which publisher eventually ends up with the license. Why put up 5-6 mil (at least) to fund a game that might not even sell 100,000 copies?

And even if a publisher decided to continue with SFC there is no guarantee that Taldren would be asked to develop the game.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2004, 04:54:40 pm »

unfortunately that is another truism.

SFC series made money - but its strength was longitivity in sales (which will never happen with sfc3 - looks like activision is pulling copies/RMAing them from stores - for what reason i do not know). sfc (with the exception of SFC1) was never a strong hard-hitting title.

i still believe there is a market for a Trek-Oriented game - especially maybe an MMORPG type. or maybe just sorta like a NWN type except instead of people - you have ships (and you can get more detailed from there).

i think one of the main lessons learned more recently is to put more polish and detail into things to produce a good package.

will it happen? i dont know because of the lawsuits and the decreasing numbers of people watching trek.

Rod O'neal · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2004, 09:04:00 pm »

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant was didn't Taldren charge Activision 300k to develope SFC3? That figure could very well be incorrect, I'm not certain. I'm not trying to stick my nose into anyone elses business or insinuate anything. That's not the reason that I mention it. I was only thinking this, What does it cost to get someone to develope a game? Not necessarily from scratch either, as from what I understand SFC3 used a lot of the code from the previous SFC titles. What would Taldren need to be paid to "complete" SFC2_OP? Add the Tholians, Andros, etc... and some new missions for them. Not to market and license it. Can anyone figure out where I'm going with this?

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Topic: So whats the hold up with SFC G.A.W (Read 16130 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Davey E

Pestalence

FFZ

Pestalence

Teeth_03

Davey E

Pestalence

Pestalence

FFZ

Pestalence

Pestalence

Rod O'neal

Age

The_Infiltrator

Pestalence

Crimmy

NannerSlug

TheSatyr

NannerSlug

Rod O'neal

Topic: So whats the hold up with SFC G.A.W (Read 16130 times)