Topic: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD  (Read 6246 times)

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Cmdr. Krotz

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Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« on: February 28, 2003, 03:12:33 pm »
This is a request to have the inability of bolt-firing primary weapons (klingon disruptors and fed pulse phasers) to hit targets at warp, except when fired at low deflection (more-or-less parallel to the target's direction of flight). While not a huge factor in ship-to-ship fighting, it does mean that using warp drive when fighting a klingon generally doesn't carry much in the way of negative side effects (having one's shields down isn't a problem if you can't be hit). Tachyon and ion cannons can mitigate this problem with the primaries somewhat, but are not universally mounted weapons like phasers and dizzies.

Of more concern is that despite bases and planets getting beefed up in the patch, klingon bases and platforms are very vulnerable to attacks by lone vessels (the attacking craft preferrably being a CL or larger, with 2 or more medium or heavy torpedoes in the front arc- having torpedoes in the rear arc can work, but the arc is considerably narrower, so harder to use)...any klink base/platform will fall to torp runs made at warp, because as long as you keep your attak angle a tad oblique to the target base/platform, those dizzy-Vs will never hit you. When the old build 488 was out, I ran missions with a quantum-equiped Norway and a Defiant in a base assault and a planetary assault; the Norway, with a rookie crew, destroyed a starbase, its platforms, and a K'vort and B'rel, with some minor hull damage; the Defiant ran the planetary assault, and wiped out the def plats, 3 K'tingas, 2 Fek'Lhrs, and a B'rel, while barely suffering a mark to its paint job, let alone armor. Now, in the release build of SFC3, a lone DD or CL with a decent crew could sit back with polarons or quantums and do this anyways...but in either of the beta patched versions, take a lone DN, let alone a CL or DD, and attack a fed/rom/borg base or planet, it'd be rough, unless you can sit back with a legendary crew and snipe away with heavy torpedoes (too bad roms don't have that option, heheheh), the former of which are generally harder to come by in the patched versions.

Because seeing is believing, I have posted a replay of me taking a Defiant, loaded up with torpedoes, and carrying a rookie crew, and attacking a Klingon Starbase defended by 2 K'Vorts and a B'rel (I wish it had generated a Vor'Cha or two, to be a bit more compelling, but I think it will still get the point across); it can be found at  BattleClinic.Com in the replay section. If you count yourself as being a dedicated Klink player,  are David Ferrell, or just want to see how to solo klink bases without taking a scratch, it might be worth looking at.  

Wiz33

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2003, 03:23:33 pm »
  I assume the reason for your post is that you think beam weapon always hits. That is a MYTH. Beam weapon always connect because that's the way the graphics are done. But they don't always do damage. If you pay attention, it's really easy to tell the hits from the misses. On a shielded ship, actual hits cause the shield to flare. On armor, hits cause a Yellow out gasing cloud. Anything else is a miss.  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2003, 03:43:47 pm »
It is not that beam weapons always hit, but rather that because bolts behave precisely as torps do, they will never hit unless directly behind or in front of the target vessel. I just want Klinks to have as good a chance at hitting warping ships as everyone else. Watch the replay, and you'll see what I mean.  

SOS_Skorzeny

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2003, 03:45:42 pm »
Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)

SirWilliam

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2003, 04:11:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




ROFLMAO.    

My monitor is now covered in a fine glaze of Cherry Coke.

SW  

Wiz33

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2003, 07:35:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




  Hey, It's a left over from my D&D days. It has a lot of history behind it, including an incident with a thermonuclear hamster. :-P

 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2003, 02:54:24 am »
  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2003, 03:35:24 am »
It's cool to see the charts now, and know klink dizzies have the favorable degradation at range...the issue that I have with the "not hitting targets at warp" issue is not that it's a game breaker in pvp, although it can certainly be a nuisance there; but rather, it's very exploitable against ai, especially the key targets in D3, namely planets and bases...it undermines trying to beef up these defenses in the first place, if a lone CL or DD with a skill level 3 crew can rip up Klingon defenses, while that same ship would have a bad time of things against bases and planets of the other races.

But don't believe me, believe the 1 MB replay at the BattleClinic...  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2003, 06:20:20 pm »
Quote:

  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
   




Further examination of the weapons charts tends to contradict the less-degradation/inability-to-hit-warping-targets arguement on two points:

1.) Klingon dizzies don't have universally better decay rates. Type Is and IIs definitely do, which explains the higher prestige cost for these models,  when compared to phasers; type IIIFs and IVFs have the same decay characteristics of their Fed counterparts; the type IVS has a slight advantage over the phaser XIIS; the type IIIS is actually marginally inferior to the phaser XIS.

2.) Looking at Romulan dizzies, their numbers suggest superior decay rates is a general characteristic of disruptors in general, rather than something specific to Klingon weapons. I base this on the rather favorable decay characteristics of of Romulan dizzy Is and IIs, as well as the fact that Romulan and Klingon standard disruptors tend not to degrade below two points of damage at maximum range, as opposed to phasers and cutting beams, which drop all the way down to one point of damage.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2003, 06:38:52 pm »
I have to say that I agree with Krotz, here.  Klinks are the only race that cannot hit a target at warp with primaries except with the most modest deflection angles which any opposing player with half a brain would avoid anyway.  As far as I know, klink primaries are nearly identical to fed primaries, so this " less depletion at range" arguement is bogus.  Klink disruptor implementation is a holdover from SFC2 when it was a heavy not a primary.  The fact is Taldren was simply too lazy to alter its implementation to a true primary like the other races with some mixed-in delusion about it adding race identity/specifics since as it stands now it is hard to tell one race from another in SFC3.  

As far as I am concerned it is a pvp game breaker. When someone can just warp jump away from you all the time and not get hit and as a klink you dont have the same advantage, it is totally unbalancing.  There are innumerable battles against feds where I could have finished them off if they had not had the option to warp jump away and repair the entire time.  Hell, that's part of the reason I switched to rom.  Didn't want anyone to just be able to run away unscathed.

The solution is simple.  No primaries able to hit ships at warp, ever.  It's as abitrary as only one race not being able to, so why not.  End of story.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2003, 07:01:07 pm »
   That's a little bit drastic. As a matter of strict fact, not every primary does hit. Pulse phasers, for instance. But also, just because the graphic colides with the ship doesn't mean its a 'hit' (see torpedoes flying right through a cube). Often, primaries will fail to damage a warping ship. Klingons do hit that less often. That's a race weakness. All of the races have a weakness, and they can ALL be accounted for. Tractor them if its a big problem, or, GASP, use a tachyon gun!

If you're creative, you can get around any opposing strategy.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2003, 11:56:58 pm »
um, dust thou take me for a friggin idiot.  Of course, they dont always hit when they look as if they are and of course I could come up with something, but why the hell should I have to.  I know from experience what the ability to hit warping targets means, but obviously you have no experience with the converse.  Perhaps you would like to play kliink for awhile and see how you like it.  Personally, jack, I have tested the hit ratio with klink dizzie at a typical oblique angle vs a fed phaser in same conditions.  Klink dizzies never hit in 20 trials, fed phasers hit nearly every time for varying degrees of damage.  I posted these results in a previous thread some time ago.   So, before you go shooting your mouth off about stuff, perhaps you would like  to know the facts first and run some tests yourself.  Klink dizzies will only hit at the most modest of angles.  All other primary weapons consistently hit at any angle.  Screw race disadvantage arguements.  It is clearly an unbalancing POS hangover from SFC2.  It should be changed post-haste.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2003, 01:30:52 am »
  Okay, four things

1. No mechanics were carried over from SCF2. The entire setup is different because of the new abilities to assing your own weaponry and the fact that speed is no longer an energy drain. Don't blame old games for this one.

2. I'm sure the borg players bitch about no shields, the feds about no cloak, and I know the romulans complain about our weak assed hulls. I realise the federation SEEMS easier. But I choose not to play the federation because they are tactically limiting.

3. No one said you had to play klingon. If you can't get around being weak against warp dagger maneuvres, then pick a different weakness. I'm sure the klingon race will survive.

4. There is a difference between a bug and a feature. Taldren likes it this way. Deal with it, its more cannon.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2003, 02:02:21 am »
point for point response.

1.  The graphic for the SFC3 klink dizzie is exactly the same as SFC2, despite it is now a primary and not a heavy.  Its bolt-like behavior is a hold over from SFC2.  Everyone knows that.  Taldren didnt want everyone to have phasers anymore, so they made klinks have "phaser" disruptors.  The manner in which they have implemented it bespeaks of a certain intellectual laziness.

2.   Not a good analogy.  What would be more analagous to say would be if klinks did not have multi-volley on torps while everyone else does. Clearly, they do and that is balance.  Every other race can hit ships at warp.  Klinks cant for all intents and purposes.  That is an inbalance.  It is not some pseudo-fundamental race difference.  It is a clear handicap.

3.  As I said I dont play klink for this very reason.  I usually go rom.  I'll be damned if I am going to be saddled with some frigging nonsense handicap.  And it is isnt warp dagger tactics that are of concern.  If you had read my post with any care, you would have seen that the real prob lies in the fact that ships may warp jump away from a klink without reprisal and continue to do so while one gives chase.  This allows opposing players to repair, shield regen, whatnot, with complete impunity while a klink or anyone else could never get away with that vs anyone else.  Get your facts straight.

4. Cloaking was changed in the beta as was much else.  Anything can be changed in the game if it is acknowledged as a clear problem.  Canon?  Let's not go there.  Canon (whatever that is) gets violated practically everytime there has ever been anything put forth.  Episodes and movies constantly contradict themselves.  As Krotz I am sure will atest to, there have been numerous instances of beam-like dizzies on klink ships on DS9 especially on larger class ships.  And as such, DS9 actually offers the most canon details on screen for TNG klinks as they figured highly in the war with the Dominion. So don't talk to me again about canon without being able to back it up.  By the way, I have also seen Rom dizzies more often depicted as bolts in TNG on ST:TNG and nearly never as beams.  So perhaps we could change the game to suit that bit of canon as well, so you can have the crappy dizzies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2003, 02:50:50 pm »
 

1. You're calling Taldren lazy because two weapons based off of the same weapon from the same show look similar?

2. The klingons aren't the first to be wiped out every game, (at least pre-patch), its usually the romulans. Obviously, its not THAT big of a weakness.

3. That IS the warp-dagger. Its not impossible to counter, it takes a few minutes for a ship to re-warp.

4. You don't seem to understand. Cannon would state that non-beam weapons (such as photon torpedoes) cannot be fired in a warp battle, wheras phasers can. Klingon ships you've seen firing beams were probably ion cannons. The only ship I've ever seen like that was the Vor'Cha class, and it only had ONE beam, which kind of supports that statement. They can't patch in an entirely new weapon. You're right, there is a limit to how much we can accept cannon, but in this case, it ADDS, rather than removes, from gameplay. Just because each race plays differently doesn't make it unbalanced. There are cheap tricks for each race. One could say that we should remove cloak-detect altogether, or make it so as you can't target subsystems on borg ships (perfectly cannon), except that would REMOVE from gameplay, rather than add.

Alexander
 

Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2003, 03:16:09 pm »
Actually, it IS a big weakness. And it doesn't take 'a few minutes' for the ship to re-warp, it takes 3-4 seconds, with a legendary crew.
Klingons are in a severe disadvantage when facing warpmaniacs. Any fed who tried to play warpmania vs me (playing as rom), however, got his hull torn to pieces. I would NOT have been able to do that if I was playing klink.

-suleo  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2003, 05:46:16 pm »
Lepton1: Disruptors (both Rom and Klink) generally do have somewhat better decay characteristics than both phasers and cutting beams, as shown in the weapons charts most graciously posted recently on the general forum (ty Mr. Ferrell   )

Alexander: "Canon" does not really belong in this discussion, and it sabotages your point anyways- (ST: Dorkism alert!) as stated in the official ST: DS9 Technical Manual, " It has been generally accepted that the photon torpedo is the weapon of choice for warp velocity ship-to-ship conflict, as well as the delivery system for non-standard delivery packages. Ship-mounted phasers have traditionally been of little use during warp flight, due to the light-speed barrier for EM energy."  It does also note that "developments in subspace technology have pushed the phaser into the FTL arena, notably the ACB-jacketed beam device (see 14.1- this points to the the Defiant section, there's no further mention of such a weapon, but it seems it's not unreasonable to assume this points to the pulse phaser, which is ironic for reasons that are obvious)." Basically photons (and maybe pulse phasers) can hit targets at warp, regular phasers (and other such weapons) can't, according to ST canon; that such things are juxtaposed in the game isn't a big deal IMHO.

I don't know if the issue with bolt-firing weapons is intentional, I could just as easily see it being an unintentional side-effect of the way they were implemented. In either case, I submit it is a serious weakness in PvP, and it becomes a genuine exploitable problem when applied to Klink ai ships/bases/platforms, for as long as they don't have a ion or tachyon cannon, they are defenseless against warp tactics, as my replay at the BattleClinic demonstrates (if anyone thinks that the Defiant was the factor, I chose it because it was both readily available, as well as for all those hardpoints; a different ship, such as a Shrike, may take a little longer, but the outcome would remain the same, as I would happily demonstrate, if need be.)  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2003, 09:50:32 pm »
   God I hate ST technical manuals... TNG says the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Anyhow, you're right, as I later stated, the cannon really isn't the be all and end all. But still, if you can core rape the borg, you should be able to warp-out the klingons. EIther way you can get around it.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2003, 11:39:17 pm »
Personally I tire of this tit for tat, but I guess I started it so now I will end it.  

The implementation of the klink dizzie is flawed for a number of reasons.  First, it looks and acts like the SFC2 dizzie when clearly it is not.   The klink dizzie is now a primary and not a heavy.  Taldren had to make innumberable alterations or eradications of the essential SFC2 framework in SFC3, yet the dizzie still looks and acts the same way.  Yet there is no reason why it should bear any resemblance to its SFC2 counterpart other than some vague notion of continuity and the unwillingness to write new weapons code for it for some reason.  Case in point, the rom plasma.  I have never seen any TNG, DS9, etc reference to plamsa yet here it is in SFC3.  Why?  Perhaps some tech manual somewhere says they still use it but reason away why it has never been seen in a TNG or DS9 episode.  Who the hell knows?  Note I have not seen Nemesis, so I dont know if plasma is in that.  More likely, it is a SFC2 holdover, again vague notion of continuity with SFC2, etc.  The point being that there were any number of conscious choices Taldren made that seem like holdovers from SFC2:

1. Anti-matter mine=nuclear space mine
2.  Ion cannon=mauler
3.  mines=mines (yeah there were lots of mines in TNG, lol)
4.  marines=marines (again lots of raiding parties in TNG)
etc.

Taldren might have made any number of choices.  When it came down to it, they bagged on real Borg, no cardies, no dominion, and left SFC2 stuff in that makes no sense in a TNG context.  I suspect that their motives were to save as much development as possible hence the SFC3 SFC2 hodge-podge.

Second, all  other primaries can hit targets at warp.  Klink dizzies cannot for all intents and purposes.  The tactical handicap is this among others.  When an opposing players is damaged well enough that they feel uncomfortable taking weapons fire, they may warp jump away from you as a klink repeatedly and repair and shield regen.  They may do this with impunity as you can never hit them with your dizzies.  I am not speaking of defeating  the warp dagger, an offensive stratgey.  I am talking of defeating warp jumping, a defensive manuever.  Every other race has the ability in the above scenerio to give chase to the wounded opponent at warp, drop out of warp as he turns to jump again away from you, and hammer him with full primaries as his shields drop in his warp jump.  I have been lucky enough on occasion playing as a rom to take out half a hull when someone pulls this warp jumping crap.    As a klink, you dont have this option to hit them at warp yet every other race does.  So they can jump away from you all day if they like.  That makes it unfair and unbalanced.  And dont say, "Well just use a tach pulse or ion cannon".  Those weapons are heavies and take up the heavies hard points take should have torps on them.  Also, Tachs do very little damage and ion cannons do little damage at range which is the usual firing scenario in the case above.  But that isnt the point.  I shouldnt have to use inferior heavies or heavies at all to hit warping targets when every other race can with their primaries.  In my tests with fed phasers a bank of 4 phaser IV's was delivering on average 10 points of internal damage from range 30 or so for warping targets.  That seems like a clear and non-trivial  advantage to me.

Third, the klink dizzie is non-unique and indistinct from fed phaser.  The damage stats are nearly identical and as such it offers nothing to add  to the race identity of the kliinks except a tactical disadvantage.  The klink dizzie is the fed phaser is the rom dizzie is the borg cutting beam.  They all are a fill-in for the ubiquitous phaser in SFC2 and as such shows Taldren's remarkable inability to think up something new for SFC3.  Balance in SFC3 was foisted on the back of primaries being essentially the same, with minor race distinctions based on heavies.  So either give me the tactical blandness of nearly identical yet balanced primaries, or create something novel that adds tactical depth, but dont handicap one race and says it adds depth or color to the TNG world of SFC3.  It doesnt.

As to the D3 success of any race, that has more to do with number of players than race tech.  Roms are constantly underplayed. As I have said, I usually go rom just for the fact that they were always getting trounced and the BLUE PLAGUE benefitted from having a whole empire they could just overrun at any time to gain victory points.  The klink dizzie disadvantge is in pvp play not in the overall D3 campaign sense, although I will say that when I did play as a klink I am sure that being able to hit a target at warp would have surely helped me win a number of hexes.  Now if we add that up over all klink battles ever fought, that sounds like a big difference to me although it may not be apparent on the surface of things.

Finally, regardless of canon/non-cannon arguements, there is much in SFC3 that is non-canon (again whatever that is) namely, mines, raiding parties, plasma, whatever.  Taldren made conscious choices to keep somethings from SFC2, lose others, and make up some new things.  Be that as it may, it was within their discretion to create primaries that behaved essentially the same, and for some reason they chose not to for the klink dizzie.  To me, it doesnt make sense, is inbalancing, and is consistent in many ways with other SFC2 holdovers that demonstrate a lack of imagination on their part.  You are free to disagree with me, but you would be wrong.  Again, I say try klink for awhile and see how you find this lack of ability that all others have.  You might feel different when you are the one being short-changed.
 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2003, 12:22:41 am »
   Okay, then, fire at them while they've stopped between warp, and use the tachyons to stop them going to warp. Yes, it takes a heavy slot, but its the price you pay to give chase. You'll never catch ships at warp anyways.

Alexander
 

Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2003, 08:53:11 pm »
You don't need to catch them. You just need to make them realize that warpmania doesn't come for free (read: armor/hull damage). If you are a klink, well, warpmania (from the opponent's side) DOES come for free.

-suleo  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2003, 11:37:51 pm »
   ...which is why you catch them  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2003, 03:55:53 pm »
Um, a few points-

Tachyons...not universally great weapons, but not without their perks. Definitely not a standard weapon on Klingon vessels, so it rather sabotages player ship customization if you're faced with the choice of either taking one in lieu of a weapon you'd rather have, or giving the warpmaniac free reign by not having one. Tachyons aren't especially accurate either, despite firing a beam, according to the weapons charts, they are typically less accurate than a torpedo at range, meaning keeping someone from going to warp isn't quite so "point-and-shoot" as you make it sound. Tachyons aren't on Klingon bases or platforms, and they aren't going to chase anyone down either, so they are quite vulnerable to warping torpedo runs by solo ships (I got a base assault against a Klingon starbase, using a Falcon w/ two medium plasmas, I'll have a replay of it posted tomorrow, as the Defiant is often regarded as an uber-ship).

Alexander, I think you are also discounting the worth of those free shots at armor/hull other races get at warping targets. I've had wingmen try to retreat off the map, only to have their warp core phasered out off them as they attempt to warp off the map...shooting out somebody's systems certainly beats having to carry around a tachyon pulse just to put some hits on shields. Also, while I haven't timed transition rates in the current build, did you know a ship with a legendary engineer (in previous builds) could actually go to warp roughly half-a-second before a ship could uncloak? Not so bad if you got beams you can overload and zap that fool with, not very cool if you got bolts that can't connect.

Note too, that while 35 points-per-AMM mine-cheese was not without counters, that didn't change the fact something was very broke in that dynamic.

My point is this: bolt-firing primaries, be they Klink dizzies or Fed pulse phasers, because they utilize the same mechanics of torpedos, have inherited the same deficiencies as torpedos when engaging targets at warp, i.e. they are only going to hit if fired more or less parallel to the target's course.Tthis was done intentionally with torpedoes; bolts might have been conciously have been left to be limited in the same way, or it may have been an oversight whose implications hadn't really been thought of at the time. In either case, I would contend that it puts Klingon players at an unnecessary disadvantage (imagine if your Rom boat just HAD to have a class-V transporter for some reason...you could be a real irritant to the Borg, but you'd probably rather have that mass allocated to a better cloak, armor, etc. as a perpective on citing "tachyon pulse" as the ultimate answer), makes Klink AI ships are abnormally vulnerable to offensive warp tactics, and makes it so bases and planets (which are vital strategic targets in dynaverse play do to economy ratings or VC conditions for the particular server) can be taken out by a single vessel (not a big deal in the initial release, but very much so considering the "toughened" versions of base/planet assault mssions in the beta patches) with minimal risk to the attacker (to see how, check out my replay at BattleClinic.com)...these factors point to a weapon system whose very exploitable weakness qualifies it a being label "broken" and in need of a fix (maybe doubling the velocity of dizzy and pulse phaser bolts?).

Just out of curiousity, I think I'll put up a poll on the subject tomorrow.  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2003, 06:08:20 pm »

Should bolt weapons hit warp ships at the same accuracy rate as beam weapons?
 Yes
No



  Alexander  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2003, 06:30:50 pm »
  Also, for point of strict fact, the tachyon pulse does as much damage as the k-photon, but is faster to load. So don't say that it would be a major disadvantage, except possibly at extreme range.

Alexander
 

Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2003, 07:34:20 pm »
Perhaps making the K-Dizzies sheild piercing the same way that Fed-Pulse Phasers do would offset that disadvantage?  After all, the reason that the Feds went to pulse phasers on the Defiant was that its was determined that most of the damage inflicted by phasers was with the intial impact.  
As for Phasers being fired at Warp, look to ST:Voy: Message in a Bottle.  The Prometheus wasted a Nebula at warp, with phasers.  Never, NEVER take anything written in any book as cannon, (there are a few exceptions but those are few and far between, Taylor's two Novels about Janeway about sum it up)  When thinking ST Cannon, you have approach it the same way you have to approach Star Wars Cannon...If it wasn't shown on the screen, it never happened.

I still dont think that sheilds should be dropped while at warp, but that seems to be common in most ST games since DW.  Heck, look no further than the CGI movies included with the game.  In the romulan scene, Klingon ships fired thier Dizzes at warp, Shrike disguised as Intrepid's shields absorb the hit, Raptor disguised as Neghvar fires romulan Dizzies (still at warp) destroying BoP.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2003, 09:32:43 pm »
Alexander,

Its like you refuse to get it.  Exotic heavies cost more, often take more mass, take up a hard point for a better heavy, and are not necessary for other races to hit ships at warp.  And there is no chasing down someone warp jumping if they dont wish to be caught.  The only recourse a player has to keep them from using it as a repair tactic is to chase at warp, drop out of warp while they are turning to jump off at a new angle, fire primaries when you go to warp as heavies won't track to hit them.  Have you honestly never experienced the scenario I am describing, not to mention Krotz's warp dagger advantage against klinks?  I think you are clearly just refusing to see our points.  I get your points (other options, race differences, etc), but you clearly can't understand ours.  What I object to in your arguements is the disregard it shows for some clearly articulated points on our part, while you have supplied almost nothing to bolster your points save objecting to what we say. If there is some great reason for handicapping one race, I sure would like to hear it, other than "well that's how it is in the game, so".

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2003, 09:49:25 pm »
  Yes, I have experienced this. In my custom Falcon with only heavy torpedoes (see www.battleclinic.com). All I did was warp immediately after them, listen for the sound of them dropping from warp, and drop when I heard it. Then fire. its not complicated. And this was pre-patch, so don't talk to me about accuracy issues. Its perfectly possible to take on a war-jumper without blasting him out of warp.

What's going on here is that you refuse to diversify tactics. You lost a fight, and now you're saying it should be changed so that a straight shoot-out will beat excellent tactics. This will never happen. Get over it. It can be done. And no, I don;t have a replay, I didn't have replay saving on until after I signed up for the Battleclinic.

Just give chase. Tactics can and will beat a straight shoot-out. The fact that some tactics work better against some races than others is meaningless. Warp Jump is no more effective against klingons than core raids are against the borg.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2003, 02:04:53 am »
Clearly, you have not faced the situation I have presented.  If the jumps are done properly which is not hard, heavies could never hit.  Most often, by the time one is dropping out of warp to be in weapons' range, the opponent's turn has occured and he is warping out. We are talking apples and oranges. You are talking about hitting them when they are standing still, we are talking about hitting them with primaries when at warp.  The only possible way the tactic you recommend could work is if you are following at warp closely.    If you are firing at range 50, it wont work.  If you are waiting to drop out of warp at a good weapons' range, the turn has been made and they are gone again.  I have danced after a guy for nearly an hour as a klink, just so he could show me that he could not be touched. You had to have been following closely which I would say is the exception rather than the rule for most warp scenarios.

I am sorry to say that I think you tip your hand a bit when it comes to tactical complexity.  A Falcon with only heavy torps?  Now that is cheesy.  Decloak, fire.  Whoopee!  Hope that's fun for you.  Perhaps you could write a C++ script to execute those monotonous "tactical"  manuevers over and over again. Or do you snipe?  I think you must have drunk the cool-aid to think there is anything tactical about SFC3.  It's more like exploiting game silliness than tactics in most instances.

My point is simple and has very little to do with "tactics".  The fact that all other races can hit warping targets is a significant disadvantage for klinks.  The reason that it should be so is completely arbitrary, therefore why not change it to balance things out.  Krotz and I have supplied two good examples of the present system's impacts on klink game play.  While certainly almost any disadvantage can be overcome or lived-with, there is nothing to say it has to be the way that it is. Alterations have been made to the AMM, cloak, other features in beta patch.  There is no particular reason why this should not be altered as well except for some vague arguements about race identity/differences.  Should they have left cloak detect rates the same and said "oh well, that's the way it is, live with it or adapt."?   I as a rom almost never used cloak and I think I was pretty successful doing so.  I viewed it more as a defensive than offensive option.  Be that as it may, there were significant enough complaints about cloaking for detection rates to be altered.  I submit that the same conditions pertain here.  If you so vehemently disagree with "race limitation whining"  then I suggest you lead a campaign to revert cloaking detection rates to pre-patch levels and deal with it or get over it as you say.  When shoe is on other foot, I am sure you would feel differently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Praxis

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2003, 03:16:57 am »
I think its more realistic- in Star Trek we have NEVER seen a vessel moving at impulse hit one at warp- ESPECIALLY with disruptors.  However we HAVE seen disruptors FIRED at warp.

Making good use of tactics can overcome this problem.  Heres an example.  I went in a battle with me in a Defiant and a newbie in an Akira and wasted him  I went in battle again, same newbie and another newbie, FFA.  The one i killed earlier decided to take a Defiant like me.  So did the other newbie.  So it was 3 players in Defiants.  The two newbies dueled, while i stood aside and watched, keeping out of range.  Neither took significant hull damage, but one lost quite a bit of shielding, and warped out.  I pointed myself at the battlefield at a point just in front of the newbie who had not yet warped, and pressed warp.  As i was flying at warp, he warped too, and since my course would have taken my in front of him, now he would pass in front of me.  JUST as he was about to pass over me i slammed the firing button, hitting him with 4 quantums while we were BOTH moving at warp.  (Legendary tactical officer lets me fire 2 shots per launcher )  he lost half his hull in an instant, then continued pursuing the other player, i jumped in and killed em both.

Adjusting your course to go head-to-head while the other player is at warp and firing torps will offset the disruptor problem.  If the player is coming at you, you can hit him, you only can't when he moves away.  And when the other player is moving away, even phasers and romulan disruptors USUALLY can't hit him because of the angular velocity at that speed and angle.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2003, 06:35:32 pm »
   Actually, you slammed him with SIX torpedoes. It's three each.

I completely fail to understand how ANY player could be so incompetant that they couldn't hit one key within the 7 seconds is takes to re-warp. just LISTEN for it. its not hard. Its true that you hit their shields. Its ALSO true that the bulk of their weaponry can't hit you, unless they're playing a chicken-mod ship, which most players DON'T. If it helps, set your combat speed to 7 instead of 9, then you'll have a full 12 seconds to hit the button.

Have you actually TRIED what I've been suggesting, or are you just assuming it doesn't work? Its hardly apples and oranges. Its the same situation exactly, but its a DIFFERENT way around it. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. If you want to describe it with foods, then you might equate it to a starving man in a desert. You're asking god for a cheeseburger, and completely IGNORE the perfectly edible cacti around you. They may be HARDER to eat. It may require you to WORK, and TRY NEW THINGS, but it will STILL save your life.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2003, 07:20:08 pm »
'Ere we go again.

Canon is an unreliable guide for what should be; it's often conflicting, even without application to SFC3, or any other ST game.

There is no more reason to assume bolt-warping target interaction is an intended feature, any more than one can assume the broken stardate advancement in SP campaigns are a feature. On the other hand, to say it's an oversight would be speculation. I would therefore suggest neither of these two standpoints are really pertinent, as this has yet to be commented on one way or another officially.

Alexander, I actually do agree with you this isn't a game breaker in PvP, in most situations anyways, though there are ways in which a skilled player can exploit it; Klink players fighting AI ships obviously don't have a problem; the ease of using offensive warp tactics against Klink AIs is somewhat disturbing, but even the largest AI DN can be felled by an intelligently flown DD, so that's not too big a deal; I do take exception to the notion of current bolt-behavior being okay when these factors are added to the ABSOLUTE EASE by which Klink bases can be warp-daggered to pieces, for little or no harm to one's own ship, even the measly Falcon w/ a pair of M-plasmas  used in the replay I made just for you, Alexander ( here's the link @ battleclinic, don't worry it's pretty short ). Bases are potentially very important facilities on some servers, as they serve as AI spawn points (AIs can still impede movement, if nothing else), resupply points, can increase DVs for adjacent hexes, and can be key structures if part of VC conditions or when LOS/OA rules are in use (depending on the implementation). Klink planets are made more vulnerable by this as well, though it's generally a bit tedious to execute solo, because killing all those AI ships can take awhile; 3 DDs with quantums or medium plasmas (gravimetrics could do the trick too, but the aft arcs on Borg FFs and DDs are too narrow to get consistent use out of them; a diamonds front and side mounts would probably work though, haven't tried it yet) could do it pretty readily though. I invite you to try it, though don't use a Warbird or Scimitar, they're too wide, a Raptor should be okay though.

It's the cumulative ways (not even so much in PvP, as yes, a player can indeed partly compensate for it with good tactics) by which this deficiency can be exploited, which makes it broke, IMHO.

As I assume Alexander posted the poll here in the spirit of good intent, thank you, though I wish you would have waited, it probably would be more visible if it was its own topic, as opposed to being on the tail end post on this one.

 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2003, 09:17:33 pm »
Simply said, the only incompetence displayed is your own.  The fact that you simply refuse to understand the arguments we have made clearly demonstrates that.  Have fun with your "race-based" views.  

Scorpion

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2003, 11:01:49 pm »
Hey guys.  I have been playing Klingon for a long time and I know exactly what you are talking about here.  I have been in numerous battles against fed ships who constantly warp around and fire torps at me or just warp away from me to retreat and I can never get a single disruptor shot to hit them unless they are coming straght at me or away from me.  This is irritating and I agree with Lepton that this is definitely a big disadvantage to the klinks that I would like to see changed, especially in the klingon starbases and outposts.  However, I have grown accustomed to this disadvantage and developed some tactics against warp-happy opponents.  I tend to cloak if they keep warping around.  This usually makes them stop warping because now they don't know where I am and they can't warp away from me if they don't know where I am.  This is when I sneak up on their aft and fire weapons at them before they can warp away.  I would keep doing this until they are convinced that warping around is not a good thing when fighting against cloakable ships (or until they are blown to bits ).  If they kept warping around still after I cloak, I would just cruise around slowly and wait for them to warp close enough to me and at a good angle for me to get a good shot at them and then decloak soon enough to fire a nice shot off at them.  I guess what I am trying to say here is that YES, I think that the klingon primaries are at a disadvantage, but there are still some ways to get around it.  It's not really that big of a problem compared to the problems that plagued the romulans before the beta. ( BTW, I'm still mainly a Klingon player and won't let something like this stand in my way. )        

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2003, 11:10:03 pm »
   ooo, race based slurs. I bet that one makes me a LOT easier to hate.

BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors. I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.

This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2003, 12:36:24 am »
Quote:

 
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors.  




Not sure if this refers to the Falcon in my little demo, I just used mediums 'cuz lights took way too long, and you could conceivably still have some nominal disruptor armament, not that I was carrying anything like that at the time.


 
Quote:

   I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.  




Torps have always been able to fire  at warp, likely inspired by ST:TMP, it's quite intentional, and not likely to change. Calling the attack runs on the bases "warp-daggers" was actually something of a misnomer, it's more like "warp-strafing", you start the warp out of the target's weapons range, launch your overloaded torps while still at warp, and don't stop warping until you are out of weapons range again. The only way you get hit is if a) you don't get an oblique enough angle; b) you are too wide, like a Warbird; or c) an AI ship is sitting on your vector when it fires...because you only need to drop out of warp to turn around/not overshoot map borders, I'm afraid your solution really wouldn't be applicable.

 
Quote:

   This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
   




I read this as implying you believe Klink dizzies being able to hit warping targets would be damaging to PvP fights. I'm curious, why? I can certainly understand wanting to stay conservative, from the standpoint of wishing to avoid opening a Pandora's Box of lending legimacy to silly requests like upping Polaron damage or having Borg pyramids that eat Sovs for breakfast to be more "canon", and other such nonsense; on the other hand I have a hard time seeing  changing the bolts to allow them to hit warping targets as something that leads to Klingons becoming some kind of unbeatable Red Menace in PvP
(a charge, humorously enough, that might have been levied on the patched Romulans, were it not that the beta servers are relatively quiet...not that it should be implied I think that, it just seemed somehow ironic to me).  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2003, 02:00:17 am »
I dont hate you.  To me your just words on a page.  What I dislike is your inability to acknowledge something outside of the purview of your opinion.  Sounds like to me if you dont think it, it must be wrong. Although, you seem to be shifting slowly to our side.  Watch out you might just have a conversion experience. Dont be swayed!  You really are winning, dude!  HEHE!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2003, 02:37:31 pm »
  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
 

KD4

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2003, 11:07:40 pm »
Quote:

  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
   




you realy cant belive this about it being the klingons only  weekness if you do you realy need to fly klingon more because you apperantly have not played them much ether that or you are feeding us a bunch of s---  

Blitzkrieg

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2003, 05:21:53 am »
Personaly I found the Klingons to have many strong characteristics that over came there weaknesses.

My overwealmingly blue oppinion on this is, that Klingons do good enough as it is. I played a coueple of warp dancing Fed DN's and found them to be easy targets in the grand scheme of things, especialy seems they lined up for a full frontal warp attack (how silly). Those K-Torps overloaded do a great deal of damage against there unprotected hulls, also the Ion cannon appears to hit a lot at warp (note, appears). This MORE than makes up for it, especialy when you consider the ability to cloak makes warp dancing tougher.

 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2003, 12:32:54 pm »
  You really need to play around if you think any of the other weaknesses are unique to klingons.

Alexander
 

Draco

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2003, 12:59:06 pm »
 I?m not sure about this, I?ve been hit by bolt firing weapons several times, and if you?re having trouble with a warp jumper, cloak and sneak up on them. If you line up right behind the warp jumper you won?t have much of an AV to make it hard to hit the target.    

Cmdr. Krotz

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Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2003, 03:12:33 pm »
This is a request to have the inability of bolt-firing primary weapons (klingon disruptors and fed pulse phasers) to hit targets at warp, except when fired at low deflection (more-or-less parallel to the target's direction of flight). While not a huge factor in ship-to-ship fighting, it does mean that using warp drive when fighting a klingon generally doesn't carry much in the way of negative side effects (having one's shields down isn't a problem if you can't be hit). Tachyon and ion cannons can mitigate this problem with the primaries somewhat, but are not universally mounted weapons like phasers and dizzies.

Of more concern is that despite bases and planets getting beefed up in the patch, klingon bases and platforms are very vulnerable to attacks by lone vessels (the attacking craft preferrably being a CL or larger, with 2 or more medium or heavy torpedoes in the front arc- having torpedoes in the rear arc can work, but the arc is considerably narrower, so harder to use)...any klink base/platform will fall to torp runs made at warp, because as long as you keep your attak angle a tad oblique to the target base/platform, those dizzy-Vs will never hit you. When the old build 488 was out, I ran missions with a quantum-equiped Norway and a Defiant in a base assault and a planetary assault; the Norway, with a rookie crew, destroyed a starbase, its platforms, and a K'vort and B'rel, with some minor hull damage; the Defiant ran the planetary assault, and wiped out the def plats, 3 K'tingas, 2 Fek'Lhrs, and a B'rel, while barely suffering a mark to its paint job, let alone armor. Now, in the release build of SFC3, a lone DD or CL with a decent crew could sit back with polarons or quantums and do this anyways...but in either of the beta patched versions, take a lone DN, let alone a CL or DD, and attack a fed/rom/borg base or planet, it'd be rough, unless you can sit back with a legendary crew and snipe away with heavy torpedoes (too bad roms don't have that option, heheheh), the former of which are generally harder to come by in the patched versions.

Because seeing is believing, I have posted a replay of me taking a Defiant, loaded up with torpedoes, and carrying a rookie crew, and attacking a Klingon Starbase defended by 2 K'Vorts and a B'rel (I wish it had generated a Vor'Cha or two, to be a bit more compelling, but I think it will still get the point across); it can be found at  BattleClinic.Com in the replay section. If you count yourself as being a dedicated Klink player,  are David Ferrell, or just want to see how to solo klink bases without taking a scratch, it might be worth looking at.  

Wiz33

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2003, 03:23:33 pm »
  I assume the reason for your post is that you think beam weapon always hits. That is a MYTH. Beam weapon always connect because that's the way the graphics are done. But they don't always do damage. If you pay attention, it's really easy to tell the hits from the misses. On a shielded ship, actual hits cause the shield to flare. On armor, hits cause a Yellow out gasing cloud. Anything else is a miss.  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2003, 03:43:47 pm »
It is not that beam weapons always hit, but rather that because bolts behave precisely as torps do, they will never hit unless directly behind or in front of the target vessel. I just want Klinks to have as good a chance at hitting warping ships as everyone else. Watch the replay, and you'll see what I mean.  

SOS_Skorzeny

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2003, 03:45:42 pm »
Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)

SirWilliam

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2003, 04:11:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




ROFLMAO.    

My monitor is now covered in a fine glaze of Cherry Coke.

SW  

Wiz33

  • Guest
Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2003, 07:35:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




  Hey, It's a left over from my D&D days. It has a lot of history behind it, including an incident with a thermonuclear hamster. :-P

 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2003, 02:54:24 am »
  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2003, 03:35:24 am »
It's cool to see the charts now, and know klink dizzies have the favorable degradation at range...the issue that I have with the "not hitting targets at warp" issue is not that it's a game breaker in pvp, although it can certainly be a nuisance there; but rather, it's very exploitable against ai, especially the key targets in D3, namely planets and bases...it undermines trying to beef up these defenses in the first place, if a lone CL or DD with a skill level 3 crew can rip up Klingon defenses, while that same ship would have a bad time of things against bases and planets of the other races.

But don't believe me, believe the 1 MB replay at the BattleClinic...  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2003, 06:20:20 pm »
Quote:

  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
   




Further examination of the weapons charts tends to contradict the less-degradation/inability-to-hit-warping-targets arguement on two points:

1.) Klingon dizzies don't have universally better decay rates. Type Is and IIs definitely do, which explains the higher prestige cost for these models,  when compared to phasers; type IIIFs and IVFs have the same decay characteristics of their Fed counterparts; the type IVS has a slight advantage over the phaser XIIS; the type IIIS is actually marginally inferior to the phaser XIS.

2.) Looking at Romulan dizzies, their numbers suggest superior decay rates is a general characteristic of disruptors in general, rather than something specific to Klingon weapons. I base this on the rather favorable decay characteristics of of Romulan dizzy Is and IIs, as well as the fact that Romulan and Klingon standard disruptors tend not to degrade below two points of damage at maximum range, as opposed to phasers and cutting beams, which drop all the way down to one point of damage.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2003, 06:38:52 pm »
I have to say that I agree with Krotz, here.  Klinks are the only race that cannot hit a target at warp with primaries except with the most modest deflection angles which any opposing player with half a brain would avoid anyway.  As far as I know, klink primaries are nearly identical to fed primaries, so this " less depletion at range" arguement is bogus.  Klink disruptor implementation is a holdover from SFC2 when it was a heavy not a primary.  The fact is Taldren was simply too lazy to alter its implementation to a true primary like the other races with some mixed-in delusion about it adding race identity/specifics since as it stands now it is hard to tell one race from another in SFC3.  

As far as I am concerned it is a pvp game breaker. When someone can just warp jump away from you all the time and not get hit and as a klink you dont have the same advantage, it is totally unbalancing.  There are innumerable battles against feds where I could have finished them off if they had not had the option to warp jump away and repair the entire time.  Hell, that's part of the reason I switched to rom.  Didn't want anyone to just be able to run away unscathed.

The solution is simple.  No primaries able to hit ships at warp, ever.  It's as abitrary as only one race not being able to, so why not.  End of story.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2003, 07:01:07 pm »
   That's a little bit drastic. As a matter of strict fact, not every primary does hit. Pulse phasers, for instance. But also, just because the graphic colides with the ship doesn't mean its a 'hit' (see torpedoes flying right through a cube). Often, primaries will fail to damage a warping ship. Klingons do hit that less often. That's a race weakness. All of the races have a weakness, and they can ALL be accounted for. Tractor them if its a big problem, or, GASP, use a tachyon gun!

If you're creative, you can get around any opposing strategy.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2003, 11:56:58 pm »
um, dust thou take me for a friggin idiot.  Of course, they dont always hit when they look as if they are and of course I could come up with something, but why the hell should I have to.  I know from experience what the ability to hit warping targets means, but obviously you have no experience with the converse.  Perhaps you would like to play kliink for awhile and see how you like it.  Personally, jack, I have tested the hit ratio with klink dizzie at a typical oblique angle vs a fed phaser in same conditions.  Klink dizzies never hit in 20 trials, fed phasers hit nearly every time for varying degrees of damage.  I posted these results in a previous thread some time ago.   So, before you go shooting your mouth off about stuff, perhaps you would like  to know the facts first and run some tests yourself.  Klink dizzies will only hit at the most modest of angles.  All other primary weapons consistently hit at any angle.  Screw race disadvantage arguements.  It is clearly an unbalancing POS hangover from SFC2.  It should be changed post-haste.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2003, 01:30:52 am »
  Okay, four things

1. No mechanics were carried over from SCF2. The entire setup is different because of the new abilities to assing your own weaponry and the fact that speed is no longer an energy drain. Don't blame old games for this one.

2. I'm sure the borg players bitch about no shields, the feds about no cloak, and I know the romulans complain about our weak assed hulls. I realise the federation SEEMS easier. But I choose not to play the federation because they are tactically limiting.

3. No one said you had to play klingon. If you can't get around being weak against warp dagger maneuvres, then pick a different weakness. I'm sure the klingon race will survive.

4. There is a difference between a bug and a feature. Taldren likes it this way. Deal with it, its more cannon.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2003, 02:02:21 am »
point for point response.

1.  The graphic for the SFC3 klink dizzie is exactly the same as SFC2, despite it is now a primary and not a heavy.  Its bolt-like behavior is a hold over from SFC2.  Everyone knows that.  Taldren didnt want everyone to have phasers anymore, so they made klinks have "phaser" disruptors.  The manner in which they have implemented it bespeaks of a certain intellectual laziness.

2.   Not a good analogy.  What would be more analagous to say would be if klinks did not have multi-volley on torps while everyone else does. Clearly, they do and that is balance.  Every other race can hit ships at warp.  Klinks cant for all intents and purposes.  That is an inbalance.  It is not some pseudo-fundamental race difference.  It is a clear handicap.

3.  As I said I dont play klink for this very reason.  I usually go rom.  I'll be damned if I am going to be saddled with some frigging nonsense handicap.  And it is isnt warp dagger tactics that are of concern.  If you had read my post with any care, you would have seen that the real prob lies in the fact that ships may warp jump away from a klink without reprisal and continue to do so while one gives chase.  This allows opposing players to repair, shield regen, whatnot, with complete impunity while a klink or anyone else could never get away with that vs anyone else.  Get your facts straight.

4. Cloaking was changed in the beta as was much else.  Anything can be changed in the game if it is acknowledged as a clear problem.  Canon?  Let's not go there.  Canon (whatever that is) gets violated practically everytime there has ever been anything put forth.  Episodes and movies constantly contradict themselves.  As Krotz I am sure will atest to, there have been numerous instances of beam-like dizzies on klink ships on DS9 especially on larger class ships.  And as such, DS9 actually offers the most canon details on screen for TNG klinks as they figured highly in the war with the Dominion. So don't talk to me again about canon without being able to back it up.  By the way, I have also seen Rom dizzies more often depicted as bolts in TNG on ST:TNG and nearly never as beams.  So perhaps we could change the game to suit that bit of canon as well, so you can have the crappy dizzies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2003, 02:50:50 pm »
 

1. You're calling Taldren lazy because two weapons based off of the same weapon from the same show look similar?

2. The klingons aren't the first to be wiped out every game, (at least pre-patch), its usually the romulans. Obviously, its not THAT big of a weakness.

3. That IS the warp-dagger. Its not impossible to counter, it takes a few minutes for a ship to re-warp.

4. You don't seem to understand. Cannon would state that non-beam weapons (such as photon torpedoes) cannot be fired in a warp battle, wheras phasers can. Klingon ships you've seen firing beams were probably ion cannons. The only ship I've ever seen like that was the Vor'Cha class, and it only had ONE beam, which kind of supports that statement. They can't patch in an entirely new weapon. You're right, there is a limit to how much we can accept cannon, but in this case, it ADDS, rather than removes, from gameplay. Just because each race plays differently doesn't make it unbalanced. There are cheap tricks for each race. One could say that we should remove cloak-detect altogether, or make it so as you can't target subsystems on borg ships (perfectly cannon), except that would REMOVE from gameplay, rather than add.

Alexander
 

Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2003, 03:16:09 pm »
Actually, it IS a big weakness. And it doesn't take 'a few minutes' for the ship to re-warp, it takes 3-4 seconds, with a legendary crew.
Klingons are in a severe disadvantage when facing warpmaniacs. Any fed who tried to play warpmania vs me (playing as rom), however, got his hull torn to pieces. I would NOT have been able to do that if I was playing klink.

-suleo  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2003, 05:46:16 pm »
Lepton1: Disruptors (both Rom and Klink) generally do have somewhat better decay characteristics than both phasers and cutting beams, as shown in the weapons charts most graciously posted recently on the general forum (ty Mr. Ferrell   )

Alexander: "Canon" does not really belong in this discussion, and it sabotages your point anyways- (ST: Dorkism alert!) as stated in the official ST: DS9 Technical Manual, " It has been generally accepted that the photon torpedo is the weapon of choice for warp velocity ship-to-ship conflict, as well as the delivery system for non-standard delivery packages. Ship-mounted phasers have traditionally been of little use during warp flight, due to the light-speed barrier for EM energy."  It does also note that "developments in subspace technology have pushed the phaser into the FTL arena, notably the ACB-jacketed beam device (see 14.1- this points to the the Defiant section, there's no further mention of such a weapon, but it seems it's not unreasonable to assume this points to the pulse phaser, which is ironic for reasons that are obvious)." Basically photons (and maybe pulse phasers) can hit targets at warp, regular phasers (and other such weapons) can't, according to ST canon; that such things are juxtaposed in the game isn't a big deal IMHO.

I don't know if the issue with bolt-firing weapons is intentional, I could just as easily see it being an unintentional side-effect of the way they were implemented. In either case, I submit it is a serious weakness in PvP, and it becomes a genuine exploitable problem when applied to Klink ai ships/bases/platforms, for as long as they don't have a ion or tachyon cannon, they are defenseless against warp tactics, as my replay at the BattleClinic demonstrates (if anyone thinks that the Defiant was the factor, I chose it because it was both readily available, as well as for all those hardpoints; a different ship, such as a Shrike, may take a little longer, but the outcome would remain the same, as I would happily demonstrate, if need be.)  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2003, 09:50:32 pm »
   God I hate ST technical manuals... TNG says the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Anyhow, you're right, as I later stated, the cannon really isn't the be all and end all. But still, if you can core rape the borg, you should be able to warp-out the klingons. EIther way you can get around it.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2003, 11:39:17 pm »
Personally I tire of this tit for tat, but I guess I started it so now I will end it.  

The implementation of the klink dizzie is flawed for a number of reasons.  First, it looks and acts like the SFC2 dizzie when clearly it is not.   The klink dizzie is now a primary and not a heavy.  Taldren had to make innumberable alterations or eradications of the essential SFC2 framework in SFC3, yet the dizzie still looks and acts the same way.  Yet there is no reason why it should bear any resemblance to its SFC2 counterpart other than some vague notion of continuity and the unwillingness to write new weapons code for it for some reason.  Case in point, the rom plasma.  I have never seen any TNG, DS9, etc reference to plamsa yet here it is in SFC3.  Why?  Perhaps some tech manual somewhere says they still use it but reason away why it has never been seen in a TNG or DS9 episode.  Who the hell knows?  Note I have not seen Nemesis, so I dont know if plasma is in that.  More likely, it is a SFC2 holdover, again vague notion of continuity with SFC2, etc.  The point being that there were any number of conscious choices Taldren made that seem like holdovers from SFC2:

1. Anti-matter mine=nuclear space mine
2.  Ion cannon=mauler
3.  mines=mines (yeah there were lots of mines in TNG, lol)
4.  marines=marines (again lots of raiding parties in TNG)
etc.

Taldren might have made any number of choices.  When it came down to it, they bagged on real Borg, no cardies, no dominion, and left SFC2 stuff in that makes no sense in a TNG context.  I suspect that their motives were to save as much development as possible hence the SFC3 SFC2 hodge-podge.

Second, all  other primaries can hit targets at warp.  Klink dizzies cannot for all intents and purposes.  The tactical handicap is this among others.  When an opposing players is damaged well enough that they feel uncomfortable taking weapons fire, they may warp jump away from you as a klink repeatedly and repair and shield regen.  They may do this with impunity as you can never hit them with your dizzies.  I am not speaking of defeating  the warp dagger, an offensive stratgey.  I am talking of defeating warp jumping, a defensive manuever.  Every other race has the ability in the above scenerio to give chase to the wounded opponent at warp, drop out of warp as he turns to jump again away from you, and hammer him with full primaries as his shields drop in his warp jump.  I have been lucky enough on occasion playing as a rom to take out half a hull when someone pulls this warp jumping crap.    As a klink, you dont have this option to hit them at warp yet every other race does.  So they can jump away from you all day if they like.  That makes it unfair and unbalanced.  And dont say, "Well just use a tach pulse or ion cannon".  Those weapons are heavies and take up the heavies hard points take should have torps on them.  Also, Tachs do very little damage and ion cannons do little damage at range which is the usual firing scenario in the case above.  But that isnt the point.  I shouldnt have to use inferior heavies or heavies at all to hit warping targets when every other race can with their primaries.  In my tests with fed phasers a bank of 4 phaser IV's was delivering on average 10 points of internal damage from range 30 or so for warping targets.  That seems like a clear and non-trivial  advantage to me.

Third, the klink dizzie is non-unique and indistinct from fed phaser.  The damage stats are nearly identical and as such it offers nothing to add  to the race identity of the kliinks except a tactical disadvantage.  The klink dizzie is the fed phaser is the rom dizzie is the borg cutting beam.  They all are a fill-in for the ubiquitous phaser in SFC2 and as such shows Taldren's remarkable inability to think up something new for SFC3.  Balance in SFC3 was foisted on the back of primaries being essentially the same, with minor race distinctions based on heavies.  So either give me the tactical blandness of nearly identical yet balanced primaries, or create something novel that adds tactical depth, but dont handicap one race and says it adds depth or color to the TNG world of SFC3.  It doesnt.

As to the D3 success of any race, that has more to do with number of players than race tech.  Roms are constantly underplayed. As I have said, I usually go rom just for the fact that they were always getting trounced and the BLUE PLAGUE benefitted from having a whole empire they could just overrun at any time to gain victory points.  The klink dizzie disadvantge is in pvp play not in the overall D3 campaign sense, although I will say that when I did play as a klink I am sure that being able to hit a target at warp would have surely helped me win a number of hexes.  Now if we add that up over all klink battles ever fought, that sounds like a big difference to me although it may not be apparent on the surface of things.

Finally, regardless of canon/non-cannon arguements, there is much in SFC3 that is non-canon (again whatever that is) namely, mines, raiding parties, plasma, whatever.  Taldren made conscious choices to keep somethings from SFC2, lose others, and make up some new things.  Be that as it may, it was within their discretion to create primaries that behaved essentially the same, and for some reason they chose not to for the klink dizzie.  To me, it doesnt make sense, is inbalancing, and is consistent in many ways with other SFC2 holdovers that demonstrate a lack of imagination on their part.  You are free to disagree with me, but you would be wrong.  Again, I say try klink for awhile and see how you find this lack of ability that all others have.  You might feel different when you are the one being short-changed.
 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2003, 12:22:41 am »
   Okay, then, fire at them while they've stopped between warp, and use the tachyons to stop them going to warp. Yes, it takes a heavy slot, but its the price you pay to give chase. You'll never catch ships at warp anyways.

Alexander
 

Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2003, 08:53:11 pm »
You don't need to catch them. You just need to make them realize that warpmania doesn't come for free (read: armor/hull damage). If you are a klink, well, warpmania (from the opponent's side) DOES come for free.

-suleo  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2003, 11:37:51 pm »
   ...which is why you catch them  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2003, 03:55:53 pm »
Um, a few points-

Tachyons...not universally great weapons, but not without their perks. Definitely not a standard weapon on Klingon vessels, so it rather sabotages player ship customization if you're faced with the choice of either taking one in lieu of a weapon you'd rather have, or giving the warpmaniac free reign by not having one. Tachyons aren't especially accurate either, despite firing a beam, according to the weapons charts, they are typically less accurate than a torpedo at range, meaning keeping someone from going to warp isn't quite so "point-and-shoot" as you make it sound. Tachyons aren't on Klingon bases or platforms, and they aren't going to chase anyone down either, so they are quite vulnerable to warping torpedo runs by solo ships (I got a base assault against a Klingon starbase, using a Falcon w/ two medium plasmas, I'll have a replay of it posted tomorrow, as the Defiant is often regarded as an uber-ship).

Alexander, I think you are also discounting the worth of those free shots at armor/hull other races get at warping targets. I've had wingmen try to retreat off the map, only to have their warp core phasered out off them as they attempt to warp off the map...shooting out somebody's systems certainly beats having to carry around a tachyon pulse just to put some hits on shields. Also, while I haven't timed transition rates in the current build, did you know a ship with a legendary engineer (in previous builds) could actually go to warp roughly half-a-second before a ship could uncloak? Not so bad if you got beams you can overload and zap that fool with, not very cool if you got bolts that can't connect.

Note too, that while 35 points-per-AMM mine-cheese was not without counters, that didn't change the fact something was very broke in that dynamic.

My point is this: bolt-firing primaries, be they Klink dizzies or Fed pulse phasers, because they utilize the same mechanics of torpedos, have inherited the same deficiencies as torpedos when engaging targets at warp, i.e. they are only going to hit if fired more or less parallel to the target's course.Tthis was done intentionally with torpedoes; bolts might have been conciously have been left to be limited in the same way, or it may have been an oversight whose implications hadn't really been thought of at the time. In either case, I would contend that it puts Klingon players at an unnecessary disadvantage (imagine if your Rom boat just HAD to have a class-V transporter for some reason...you could be a real irritant to the Borg, but you'd probably rather have that mass allocated to a better cloak, armor, etc. as a perpective on citing "tachyon pulse" as the ultimate answer), makes Klink AI ships are abnormally vulnerable to offensive warp tactics, and makes it so bases and planets (which are vital strategic targets in dynaverse play do to economy ratings or VC conditions for the particular server) can be taken out by a single vessel (not a big deal in the initial release, but very much so considering the "toughened" versions of base/planet assault mssions in the beta patches) with minimal risk to the attacker (to see how, check out my replay at BattleClinic.com)...these factors point to a weapon system whose very exploitable weakness qualifies it a being label "broken" and in need of a fix (maybe doubling the velocity of dizzy and pulse phaser bolts?).

Just out of curiousity, I think I'll put up a poll on the subject tomorrow.  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2003, 06:08:20 pm »

Should bolt weapons hit warp ships at the same accuracy rate as beam weapons?
 Yes
No



  Alexander  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2003, 06:30:50 pm »
  Also, for point of strict fact, the tachyon pulse does as much damage as the k-photon, but is faster to load. So don't say that it would be a major disadvantage, except possibly at extreme range.

Alexander
 

Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2003, 07:34:20 pm »
Perhaps making the K-Dizzies sheild piercing the same way that Fed-Pulse Phasers do would offset that disadvantage?  After all, the reason that the Feds went to pulse phasers on the Defiant was that its was determined that most of the damage inflicted by phasers was with the intial impact.  
As for Phasers being fired at Warp, look to ST:Voy: Message in a Bottle.  The Prometheus wasted a Nebula at warp, with phasers.  Never, NEVER take anything written in any book as cannon, (there are a few exceptions but those are few and far between, Taylor's two Novels about Janeway about sum it up)  When thinking ST Cannon, you have approach it the same way you have to approach Star Wars Cannon...If it wasn't shown on the screen, it never happened.

I still dont think that sheilds should be dropped while at warp, but that seems to be common in most ST games since DW.  Heck, look no further than the CGI movies included with the game.  In the romulan scene, Klingon ships fired thier Dizzes at warp, Shrike disguised as Intrepid's shields absorb the hit, Raptor disguised as Neghvar fires romulan Dizzies (still at warp) destroying BoP.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2003, 09:32:43 pm »
Alexander,

Its like you refuse to get it.  Exotic heavies cost more, often take more mass, take up a hard point for a better heavy, and are not necessary for other races to hit ships at warp.  And there is no chasing down someone warp jumping if they dont wish to be caught.  The only recourse a player has to keep them from using it as a repair tactic is to chase at warp, drop out of warp while they are turning to jump off at a new angle, fire primaries when you go to warp as heavies won't track to hit them.  Have you honestly never experienced the scenario I am describing, not to mention Krotz's warp dagger advantage against klinks?  I think you are clearly just refusing to see our points.  I get your points (other options, race differences, etc), but you clearly can't understand ours.  What I object to in your arguements is the disregard it shows for some clearly articulated points on our part, while you have supplied almost nothing to bolster your points save objecting to what we say. If there is some great reason for handicapping one race, I sure would like to hear it, other than "well that's how it is in the game, so".

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2003, 09:49:25 pm »
  Yes, I have experienced this. In my custom Falcon with only heavy torpedoes (see www.battleclinic.com). All I did was warp immediately after them, listen for the sound of them dropping from warp, and drop when I heard it. Then fire. its not complicated. And this was pre-patch, so don't talk to me about accuracy issues. Its perfectly possible to take on a war-jumper without blasting him out of warp.

What's going on here is that you refuse to diversify tactics. You lost a fight, and now you're saying it should be changed so that a straight shoot-out will beat excellent tactics. This will never happen. Get over it. It can be done. And no, I don;t have a replay, I didn't have replay saving on until after I signed up for the Battleclinic.

Just give chase. Tactics can and will beat a straight shoot-out. The fact that some tactics work better against some races than others is meaningless. Warp Jump is no more effective against klingons than core raids are against the borg.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2003, 02:04:53 am »
Clearly, you have not faced the situation I have presented.  If the jumps are done properly which is not hard, heavies could never hit.  Most often, by the time one is dropping out of warp to be in weapons' range, the opponent's turn has occured and he is warping out. We are talking apples and oranges. You are talking about hitting them when they are standing still, we are talking about hitting them with primaries when at warp.  The only possible way the tactic you recommend could work is if you are following at warp closely.    If you are firing at range 50, it wont work.  If you are waiting to drop out of warp at a good weapons' range, the turn has been made and they are gone again.  I have danced after a guy for nearly an hour as a klink, just so he could show me that he could not be touched. You had to have been following closely which I would say is the exception rather than the rule for most warp scenarios.

I am sorry to say that I think you tip your hand a bit when it comes to tactical complexity.  A Falcon with only heavy torps?  Now that is cheesy.  Decloak, fire.  Whoopee!  Hope that's fun for you.  Perhaps you could write a C++ script to execute those monotonous "tactical"  manuevers over and over again. Or do you snipe?  I think you must have drunk the cool-aid to think there is anything tactical about SFC3.  It's more like exploiting game silliness than tactics in most instances.

My point is simple and has very little to do with "tactics".  The fact that all other races can hit warping targets is a significant disadvantage for klinks.  The reason that it should be so is completely arbitrary, therefore why not change it to balance things out.  Krotz and I have supplied two good examples of the present system's impacts on klink game play.  While certainly almost any disadvantage can be overcome or lived-with, there is nothing to say it has to be the way that it is. Alterations have been made to the AMM, cloak, other features in beta patch.  There is no particular reason why this should not be altered as well except for some vague arguements about race identity/differences.  Should they have left cloak detect rates the same and said "oh well, that's the way it is, live with it or adapt."?   I as a rom almost never used cloak and I think I was pretty successful doing so.  I viewed it more as a defensive than offensive option.  Be that as it may, there were significant enough complaints about cloaking for detection rates to be altered.  I submit that the same conditions pertain here.  If you so vehemently disagree with "race limitation whining"  then I suggest you lead a campaign to revert cloaking detection rates to pre-patch levels and deal with it or get over it as you say.  When shoe is on other foot, I am sure you would feel differently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Praxis

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2003, 03:16:57 am »
I think its more realistic- in Star Trek we have NEVER seen a vessel moving at impulse hit one at warp- ESPECIALLY with disruptors.  However we HAVE seen disruptors FIRED at warp.

Making good use of tactics can overcome this problem.  Heres an example.  I went in a battle with me in a Defiant and a newbie in an Akira and wasted him  I went in battle again, same newbie and another newbie, FFA.  The one i killed earlier decided to take a Defiant like me.  So did the other newbie.  So it was 3 players in Defiants.  The two newbies dueled, while i stood aside and watched, keeping out of range.  Neither took significant hull damage, but one lost quite a bit of shielding, and warped out.  I pointed myself at the battlefield at a point just in front of the newbie who had not yet warped, and pressed warp.  As i was flying at warp, he warped too, and since my course would have taken my in front of him, now he would pass in front of me.  JUST as he was about to pass over me i slammed the firing button, hitting him with 4 quantums while we were BOTH moving at warp.  (Legendary tactical officer lets me fire 2 shots per launcher )  he lost half his hull in an instant, then continued pursuing the other player, i jumped in and killed em both.

Adjusting your course to go head-to-head while the other player is at warp and firing torps will offset the disruptor problem.  If the player is coming at you, you can hit him, you only can't when he moves away.  And when the other player is moving away, even phasers and romulan disruptors USUALLY can't hit him because of the angular velocity at that speed and angle.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2003, 06:35:32 pm »
   Actually, you slammed him with SIX torpedoes. It's three each.

I completely fail to understand how ANY player could be so incompetant that they couldn't hit one key within the 7 seconds is takes to re-warp. just LISTEN for it. its not hard. Its true that you hit their shields. Its ALSO true that the bulk of their weaponry can't hit you, unless they're playing a chicken-mod ship, which most players DON'T. If it helps, set your combat speed to 7 instead of 9, then you'll have a full 12 seconds to hit the button.

Have you actually TRIED what I've been suggesting, or are you just assuming it doesn't work? Its hardly apples and oranges. Its the same situation exactly, but its a DIFFERENT way around it. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. If you want to describe it with foods, then you might equate it to a starving man in a desert. You're asking god for a cheeseburger, and completely IGNORE the perfectly edible cacti around you. They may be HARDER to eat. It may require you to WORK, and TRY NEW THINGS, but it will STILL save your life.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2003, 07:20:08 pm »
'Ere we go again.

Canon is an unreliable guide for what should be; it's often conflicting, even without application to SFC3, or any other ST game.

There is no more reason to assume bolt-warping target interaction is an intended feature, any more than one can assume the broken stardate advancement in SP campaigns are a feature. On the other hand, to say it's an oversight would be speculation. I would therefore suggest neither of these two standpoints are really pertinent, as this has yet to be commented on one way or another officially.

Alexander, I actually do agree with you this isn't a game breaker in PvP, in most situations anyways, though there are ways in which a skilled player can exploit it; Klink players fighting AI ships obviously don't have a problem; the ease of using offensive warp tactics against Klink AIs is somewhat disturbing, but even the largest AI DN can be felled by an intelligently flown DD, so that's not too big a deal; I do take exception to the notion of current bolt-behavior being okay when these factors are added to the ABSOLUTE EASE by which Klink bases can be warp-daggered to pieces, for little or no harm to one's own ship, even the measly Falcon w/ a pair of M-plasmas  used in the replay I made just for you, Alexander ( here's the link @ battleclinic, don't worry it's pretty short ). Bases are potentially very important facilities on some servers, as they serve as AI spawn points (AIs can still impede movement, if nothing else), resupply points, can increase DVs for adjacent hexes, and can be key structures if part of VC conditions or when LOS/OA rules are in use (depending on the implementation). Klink planets are made more vulnerable by this as well, though it's generally a bit tedious to execute solo, because killing all those AI ships can take awhile; 3 DDs with quantums or medium plasmas (gravimetrics could do the trick too, but the aft arcs on Borg FFs and DDs are too narrow to get consistent use out of them; a diamonds front and side mounts would probably work though, haven't tried it yet) could do it pretty readily though. I invite you to try it, though don't use a Warbird or Scimitar, they're too wide, a Raptor should be okay though.

It's the cumulative ways (not even so much in PvP, as yes, a player can indeed partly compensate for it with good tactics) by which this deficiency can be exploited, which makes it broke, IMHO.

As I assume Alexander posted the poll here in the spirit of good intent, thank you, though I wish you would have waited, it probably would be more visible if it was its own topic, as opposed to being on the tail end post on this one.

 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2003, 09:17:33 pm »
Simply said, the only incompetence displayed is your own.  The fact that you simply refuse to understand the arguments we have made clearly demonstrates that.  Have fun with your "race-based" views.  

Scorpion

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2003, 11:01:49 pm »
Hey guys.  I have been playing Klingon for a long time and I know exactly what you are talking about here.  I have been in numerous battles against fed ships who constantly warp around and fire torps at me or just warp away from me to retreat and I can never get a single disruptor shot to hit them unless they are coming straght at me or away from me.  This is irritating and I agree with Lepton that this is definitely a big disadvantage to the klinks that I would like to see changed, especially in the klingon starbases and outposts.  However, I have grown accustomed to this disadvantage and developed some tactics against warp-happy opponents.  I tend to cloak if they keep warping around.  This usually makes them stop warping because now they don't know where I am and they can't warp away from me if they don't know where I am.  This is when I sneak up on their aft and fire weapons at them before they can warp away.  I would keep doing this until they are convinced that warping around is not a good thing when fighting against cloakable ships (or until they are blown to bits ).  If they kept warping around still after I cloak, I would just cruise around slowly and wait for them to warp close enough to me and at a good angle for me to get a good shot at them and then decloak soon enough to fire a nice shot off at them.  I guess what I am trying to say here is that YES, I think that the klingon primaries are at a disadvantage, but there are still some ways to get around it.  It's not really that big of a problem compared to the problems that plagued the romulans before the beta. ( BTW, I'm still mainly a Klingon player and won't let something like this stand in my way. )        

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2003, 11:10:03 pm »
   ooo, race based slurs. I bet that one makes me a LOT easier to hate.

BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors. I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.

This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2003, 12:36:24 am »
Quote:

 
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors.  




Not sure if this refers to the Falcon in my little demo, I just used mediums 'cuz lights took way too long, and you could conceivably still have some nominal disruptor armament, not that I was carrying anything like that at the time.


 
Quote:

   I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.  




Torps have always been able to fire  at warp, likely inspired by ST:TMP, it's quite intentional, and not likely to change. Calling the attack runs on the bases "warp-daggers" was actually something of a misnomer, it's more like "warp-strafing", you start the warp out of the target's weapons range, launch your overloaded torps while still at warp, and don't stop warping until you are out of weapons range again. The only way you get hit is if a) you don't get an oblique enough angle; b) you are too wide, like a Warbird; or c) an AI ship is sitting on your vector when it fires...because you only need to drop out of warp to turn around/not overshoot map borders, I'm afraid your solution really wouldn't be applicable.

 
Quote:

   This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
   




I read this as implying you believe Klink dizzies being able to hit warping targets would be damaging to PvP fights. I'm curious, why? I can certainly understand wanting to stay conservative, from the standpoint of wishing to avoid opening a Pandora's Box of lending legimacy to silly requests like upping Polaron damage or having Borg pyramids that eat Sovs for breakfast to be more "canon", and other such nonsense; on the other hand I have a hard time seeing  changing the bolts to allow them to hit warping targets as something that leads to Klingons becoming some kind of unbeatable Red Menace in PvP
(a charge, humorously enough, that might have been levied on the patched Romulans, were it not that the beta servers are relatively quiet...not that it should be implied I think that, it just seemed somehow ironic to me).  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2003, 02:00:17 am »
I dont hate you.  To me your just words on a page.  What I dislike is your inability to acknowledge something outside of the purview of your opinion.  Sounds like to me if you dont think it, it must be wrong. Although, you seem to be shifting slowly to our side.  Watch out you might just have a conversion experience. Dont be swayed!  You really are winning, dude!  HEHE!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2003, 02:37:31 pm »
  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
 

KD4

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2003, 11:07:40 pm »
Quote:

  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
   




you realy cant belive this about it being the klingons only  weekness if you do you realy need to fly klingon more because you apperantly have not played them much ether that or you are feeding us a bunch of s---  

Blitzkrieg

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2003, 05:21:53 am »
Personaly I found the Klingons to have many strong characteristics that over came there weaknesses.

My overwealmingly blue oppinion on this is, that Klingons do good enough as it is. I played a coueple of warp dancing Fed DN's and found them to be easy targets in the grand scheme of things, especialy seems they lined up for a full frontal warp attack (how silly). Those K-Torps overloaded do a great deal of damage against there unprotected hulls, also the Ion cannon appears to hit a lot at warp (note, appears). This MORE than makes up for it, especialy when you consider the ability to cloak makes warp dancing tougher.

 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2003, 12:32:54 pm »
  You really need to play around if you think any of the other weaknesses are unique to klingons.

Alexander
 

Draco

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2003, 12:59:06 pm »
 I?m not sure about this, I?ve been hit by bolt firing weapons several times, and if you?re having trouble with a warp jumper, cloak and sneak up on them. If you line up right behind the warp jumper you won?t have much of an AV to make it hard to hit the target.    

Offline TarMinyatur

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2019, 06:05:04 pm »
All this could have been solved by changing four bytes of data in SFC3.exe. Taldren could have set the Klingon Disruptor speed at 30000 instead of 6500 in that floating point immediate value.

Warp flybys of Klingon bases and planets would not be so easy.

My 535 build of SFC3.exe will fix this problem, 15 years late, but better than never.

Offline Javora

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2019, 09:39:06 pm »
Post that again somewhere else so I can hit the like button...  lol


Offline TarMinyatur

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2019, 02:59:39 am »
Disruptors with a speed of 2000, which is ten times the default tactical warp speed, are effective against warping targets.

I tried to destroy a Klingon Battlestation in a light cruiser via the brilliant warp flyby tactic. It's an easy task against speed-650 bolts. I cannot easily win if the base has speed-2000 bolts. The damage on bare hull adds up, just as it does when facing Fed, Rom, and Borg bases.

0x0001DF1D is the address of the little-endian float variable for internal Disruptor Bolt speed.

Default bytes are 00 20 CB 45 (6500.0f).

I recommend 00 40 9C 46 (20000.0f).

Klingon planets, ships, and bases will no longer be extremely easy to defeat with warp strafing.

The other races can easily hit warping targets with Phasers, R-Disruptors, and Cutting Beams. The Klingons (or any race that uses Disruptor primary weapons) can do that too with faster Disruptor Bolt speed.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 03:06:11 am by TarMinyatur »