Topic: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD  (Read 6238 times)

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Cmdr. Krotz

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Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« on: February 28, 2003, 03:12:33 pm »
This is a request to have the inability of bolt-firing primary weapons (klingon disruptors and fed pulse phasers) to hit targets at warp, except when fired at low deflection (more-or-less parallel to the target's direction of flight). While not a huge factor in ship-to-ship fighting, it does mean that using warp drive when fighting a klingon generally doesn't carry much in the way of negative side effects (having one's shields down isn't a problem if you can't be hit). Tachyon and ion cannons can mitigate this problem with the primaries somewhat, but are not universally mounted weapons like phasers and dizzies.

Of more concern is that despite bases and planets getting beefed up in the patch, klingon bases and platforms are very vulnerable to attacks by lone vessels (the attacking craft preferrably being a CL or larger, with 2 or more medium or heavy torpedoes in the front arc- having torpedoes in the rear arc can work, but the arc is considerably narrower, so harder to use)...any klink base/platform will fall to torp runs made at warp, because as long as you keep your attak angle a tad oblique to the target base/platform, those dizzy-Vs will never hit you. When the old build 488 was out, I ran missions with a quantum-equiped Norway and a Defiant in a base assault and a planetary assault; the Norway, with a rookie crew, destroyed a starbase, its platforms, and a K'vort and B'rel, with some minor hull damage; the Defiant ran the planetary assault, and wiped out the def plats, 3 K'tingas, 2 Fek'Lhrs, and a B'rel, while barely suffering a mark to its paint job, let alone armor. Now, in the release build of SFC3, a lone DD or CL with a decent crew could sit back with polarons or quantums and do this anyways...but in either of the beta patched versions, take a lone DN, let alone a CL or DD, and attack a fed/rom/borg base or planet, it'd be rough, unless you can sit back with a legendary crew and snipe away with heavy torpedoes (too bad roms don't have that option, heheheh), the former of which are generally harder to come by in the patched versions.

Because seeing is believing, I have posted a replay of me taking a Defiant, loaded up with torpedoes, and carrying a rookie crew, and attacking a Klingon Starbase defended by 2 K'Vorts and a B'rel (I wish it had generated a Vor'Cha or two, to be a bit more compelling, but I think it will still get the point across); it can be found at  BattleClinic.Com in the replay section. If you count yourself as being a dedicated Klink player,  are David Ferrell, or just want to see how to solo klink bases without taking a scratch, it might be worth looking at.  

Wiz33

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2003, 03:23:33 pm »
  I assume the reason for your post is that you think beam weapon always hits. That is a MYTH. Beam weapon always connect because that's the way the graphics are done. But they don't always do damage. If you pay attention, it's really easy to tell the hits from the misses. On a shielded ship, actual hits cause the shield to flare. On armor, hits cause a Yellow out gasing cloud. Anything else is a miss.  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2003, 03:43:47 pm »
It is not that beam weapons always hit, but rather that because bolts behave precisely as torps do, they will never hit unless directly behind or in front of the target vessel. I just want Klinks to have as good a chance at hitting warping ships as everyone else. Watch the replay, and you'll see what I mean.  

SOS_Skorzeny

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2003, 03:45:42 pm »
Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)

SirWilliam

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2003, 04:11:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




ROFLMAO.    

My monitor is now covered in a fine glaze of Cherry Coke.

SW  

Wiz33

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2003, 07:35:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

  Wiz on most server




So what are you telling us here?  That you are really really good at most games?  Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?  

Hee hee!

*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)  




  Hey, It's a left over from my D&D days. It has a lot of history behind it, including an incident with a thermonuclear hamster. :-P

 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2003, 02:54:24 am »
  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2003, 03:35:24 am »
It's cool to see the charts now, and know klink dizzies have the favorable degradation at range...the issue that I have with the "not hitting targets at warp" issue is not that it's a game breaker in pvp, although it can certainly be a nuisance there; but rather, it's very exploitable against ai, especially the key targets in D3, namely planets and bases...it undermines trying to beef up these defenses in the first place, if a lone CL or DD with a skill level 3 crew can rip up Klingon defenses, while that same ship would have a bad time of things against bases and planets of the other races.

But don't believe me, believe the 1 MB replay at the BattleClinic...  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2003, 06:20:20 pm »
Quote:

  Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.

Alexander
   




Further examination of the weapons charts tends to contradict the less-degradation/inability-to-hit-warping-targets arguement on two points:

1.) Klingon dizzies don't have universally better decay rates. Type Is and IIs definitely do, which explains the higher prestige cost for these models,  when compared to phasers; type IIIFs and IVFs have the same decay characteristics of their Fed counterparts; the type IVS has a slight advantage over the phaser XIIS; the type IIIS is actually marginally inferior to the phaser XIS.

2.) Looking at Romulan dizzies, their numbers suggest superior decay rates is a general characteristic of disruptors in general, rather than something specific to Klingon weapons. I base this on the rather favorable decay characteristics of of Romulan dizzy Is and IIs, as well as the fact that Romulan and Klingon standard disruptors tend not to degrade below two points of damage at maximum range, as opposed to phasers and cutting beams, which drop all the way down to one point of damage.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2003, 06:38:52 pm »
I have to say that I agree with Krotz, here.  Klinks are the only race that cannot hit a target at warp with primaries except with the most modest deflection angles which any opposing player with half a brain would avoid anyway.  As far as I know, klink primaries are nearly identical to fed primaries, so this " less depletion at range" arguement is bogus.  Klink disruptor implementation is a holdover from SFC2 when it was a heavy not a primary.  The fact is Taldren was simply too lazy to alter its implementation to a true primary like the other races with some mixed-in delusion about it adding race identity/specifics since as it stands now it is hard to tell one race from another in SFC3.  

As far as I am concerned it is a pvp game breaker. When someone can just warp jump away from you all the time and not get hit and as a klink you dont have the same advantage, it is totally unbalancing.  There are innumerable battles against feds where I could have finished them off if they had not had the option to warp jump away and repair the entire time.  Hell, that's part of the reason I switched to rom.  Didn't want anyone to just be able to run away unscathed.

The solution is simple.  No primaries able to hit ships at warp, ever.  It's as abitrary as only one race not being able to, so why not.  End of story.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2003, 07:01:07 pm »
   That's a little bit drastic. As a matter of strict fact, not every primary does hit. Pulse phasers, for instance. But also, just because the graphic colides with the ship doesn't mean its a 'hit' (see torpedoes flying right through a cube). Often, primaries will fail to damage a warping ship. Klingons do hit that less often. That's a race weakness. All of the races have a weakness, and they can ALL be accounted for. Tractor them if its a big problem, or, GASP, use a tachyon gun!

If you're creative, you can get around any opposing strategy.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2003, 11:56:58 pm »
um, dust thou take me for a friggin idiot.  Of course, they dont always hit when they look as if they are and of course I could come up with something, but why the hell should I have to.  I know from experience what the ability to hit warping targets means, but obviously you have no experience with the converse.  Perhaps you would like to play kliink for awhile and see how you like it.  Personally, jack, I have tested the hit ratio with klink dizzie at a typical oblique angle vs a fed phaser in same conditions.  Klink dizzies never hit in 20 trials, fed phasers hit nearly every time for varying degrees of damage.  I posted these results in a previous thread some time ago.   So, before you go shooting your mouth off about stuff, perhaps you would like  to know the facts first and run some tests yourself.  Klink dizzies will only hit at the most modest of angles.  All other primary weapons consistently hit at any angle.  Screw race disadvantage arguements.  It is clearly an unbalancing POS hangover from SFC2.  It should be changed post-haste.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2003, 01:30:52 am »
  Okay, four things

1. No mechanics were carried over from SCF2. The entire setup is different because of the new abilities to assing your own weaponry and the fact that speed is no longer an energy drain. Don't blame old games for this one.

2. I'm sure the borg players bitch about no shields, the feds about no cloak, and I know the romulans complain about our weak assed hulls. I realise the federation SEEMS easier. But I choose not to play the federation because they are tactically limiting.

3. No one said you had to play klingon. If you can't get around being weak against warp dagger maneuvres, then pick a different weakness. I'm sure the klingon race will survive.

4. There is a difference between a bug and a feature. Taldren likes it this way. Deal with it, its more cannon.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2003, 02:02:21 am »
point for point response.

1.  The graphic for the SFC3 klink dizzie is exactly the same as SFC2, despite it is now a primary and not a heavy.  Its bolt-like behavior is a hold over from SFC2.  Everyone knows that.  Taldren didnt want everyone to have phasers anymore, so they made klinks have "phaser" disruptors.  The manner in which they have implemented it bespeaks of a certain intellectual laziness.

2.   Not a good analogy.  What would be more analagous to say would be if klinks did not have multi-volley on torps while everyone else does. Clearly, they do and that is balance.  Every other race can hit ships at warp.  Klinks cant for all intents and purposes.  That is an inbalance.  It is not some pseudo-fundamental race difference.  It is a clear handicap.

3.  As I said I dont play klink for this very reason.  I usually go rom.  I'll be damned if I am going to be saddled with some frigging nonsense handicap.  And it is isnt warp dagger tactics that are of concern.  If you had read my post with any care, you would have seen that the real prob lies in the fact that ships may warp jump away from a klink without reprisal and continue to do so while one gives chase.  This allows opposing players to repair, shield regen, whatnot, with complete impunity while a klink or anyone else could never get away with that vs anyone else.  Get your facts straight.

4. Cloaking was changed in the beta as was much else.  Anything can be changed in the game if it is acknowledged as a clear problem.  Canon?  Let's not go there.  Canon (whatever that is) gets violated practically everytime there has ever been anything put forth.  Episodes and movies constantly contradict themselves.  As Krotz I am sure will atest to, there have been numerous instances of beam-like dizzies on klink ships on DS9 especially on larger class ships.  And as such, DS9 actually offers the most canon details on screen for TNG klinks as they figured highly in the war with the Dominion. So don't talk to me again about canon without being able to back it up.  By the way, I have also seen Rom dizzies more often depicted as bolts in TNG on ST:TNG and nearly never as beams.  So perhaps we could change the game to suit that bit of canon as well, so you can have the crappy dizzies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2003, 02:50:50 pm »
 

1. You're calling Taldren lazy because two weapons based off of the same weapon from the same show look similar?

2. The klingons aren't the first to be wiped out every game, (at least pre-patch), its usually the romulans. Obviously, its not THAT big of a weakness.

3. That IS the warp-dagger. Its not impossible to counter, it takes a few minutes for a ship to re-warp.

4. You don't seem to understand. Cannon would state that non-beam weapons (such as photon torpedoes) cannot be fired in a warp battle, wheras phasers can. Klingon ships you've seen firing beams were probably ion cannons. The only ship I've ever seen like that was the Vor'Cha class, and it only had ONE beam, which kind of supports that statement. They can't patch in an entirely new weapon. You're right, there is a limit to how much we can accept cannon, but in this case, it ADDS, rather than removes, from gameplay. Just because each race plays differently doesn't make it unbalanced. There are cheap tricks for each race. One could say that we should remove cloak-detect altogether, or make it so as you can't target subsystems on borg ships (perfectly cannon), except that would REMOVE from gameplay, rather than add.

Alexander
 

Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2003, 03:16:09 pm »
Actually, it IS a big weakness. And it doesn't take 'a few minutes' for the ship to re-warp, it takes 3-4 seconds, with a legendary crew.
Klingons are in a severe disadvantage when facing warpmaniacs. Any fed who tried to play warpmania vs me (playing as rom), however, got his hull torn to pieces. I would NOT have been able to do that if I was playing klink.

-suleo  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2003, 05:46:16 pm »
Lepton1: Disruptors (both Rom and Klink) generally do have somewhat better decay characteristics than both phasers and cutting beams, as shown in the weapons charts most graciously posted recently on the general forum (ty Mr. Ferrell   )

Alexander: "Canon" does not really belong in this discussion, and it sabotages your point anyways- (ST: Dorkism alert!) as stated in the official ST: DS9 Technical Manual, " It has been generally accepted that the photon torpedo is the weapon of choice for warp velocity ship-to-ship conflict, as well as the delivery system for non-standard delivery packages. Ship-mounted phasers have traditionally been of little use during warp flight, due to the light-speed barrier for EM energy."  It does also note that "developments in subspace technology have pushed the phaser into the FTL arena, notably the ACB-jacketed beam device (see 14.1- this points to the the Defiant section, there's no further mention of such a weapon, but it seems it's not unreasonable to assume this points to the pulse phaser, which is ironic for reasons that are obvious)." Basically photons (and maybe pulse phasers) can hit targets at warp, regular phasers (and other such weapons) can't, according to ST canon; that such things are juxtaposed in the game isn't a big deal IMHO.

I don't know if the issue with bolt-firing weapons is intentional, I could just as easily see it being an unintentional side-effect of the way they were implemented. In either case, I submit it is a serious weakness in PvP, and it becomes a genuine exploitable problem when applied to Klink ai ships/bases/platforms, for as long as they don't have a ion or tachyon cannon, they are defenseless against warp tactics, as my replay at the BattleClinic demonstrates (if anyone thinks that the Defiant was the factor, I chose it because it was both readily available, as well as for all those hardpoints; a different ship, such as a Shrike, may take a little longer, but the outcome would remain the same, as I would happily demonstrate, if need be.)  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2003, 09:50:32 pm »
   God I hate ST technical manuals... TNG says the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Anyhow, you're right, as I later stated, the cannon really isn't the be all and end all. But still, if you can core rape the borg, you should be able to warp-out the klingons. EIther way you can get around it.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2003, 11:39:17 pm »
Personally I tire of this tit for tat, but I guess I started it so now I will end it.  

The implementation of the klink dizzie is flawed for a number of reasons.  First, it looks and acts like the SFC2 dizzie when clearly it is not.   The klink dizzie is now a primary and not a heavy.  Taldren had to make innumberable alterations or eradications of the essential SFC2 framework in SFC3, yet the dizzie still looks and acts the same way.  Yet there is no reason why it should bear any resemblance to its SFC2 counterpart other than some vague notion of continuity and the unwillingness to write new weapons code for it for some reason.  Case in point, the rom plasma.  I have never seen any TNG, DS9, etc reference to plamsa yet here it is in SFC3.  Why?  Perhaps some tech manual somewhere says they still use it but reason away why it has never been seen in a TNG or DS9 episode.  Who the hell knows?  Note I have not seen Nemesis, so I dont know if plasma is in that.  More likely, it is a SFC2 holdover, again vague notion of continuity with SFC2, etc.  The point being that there were any number of conscious choices Taldren made that seem like holdovers from SFC2:

1. Anti-matter mine=nuclear space mine
2.  Ion cannon=mauler
3.  mines=mines (yeah there were lots of mines in TNG, lol)
4.  marines=marines (again lots of raiding parties in TNG)
etc.

Taldren might have made any number of choices.  When it came down to it, they bagged on real Borg, no cardies, no dominion, and left SFC2 stuff in that makes no sense in a TNG context.  I suspect that their motives were to save as much development as possible hence the SFC3 SFC2 hodge-podge.

Second, all  other primaries can hit targets at warp.  Klink dizzies cannot for all intents and purposes.  The tactical handicap is this among others.  When an opposing players is damaged well enough that they feel uncomfortable taking weapons fire, they may warp jump away from you as a klink repeatedly and repair and shield regen.  They may do this with impunity as you can never hit them with your dizzies.  I am not speaking of defeating  the warp dagger, an offensive stratgey.  I am talking of defeating warp jumping, a defensive manuever.  Every other race has the ability in the above scenerio to give chase to the wounded opponent at warp, drop out of warp as he turns to jump again away from you, and hammer him with full primaries as his shields drop in his warp jump.  I have been lucky enough on occasion playing as a rom to take out half a hull when someone pulls this warp jumping crap.    As a klink, you dont have this option to hit them at warp yet every other race does.  So they can jump away from you all day if they like.  That makes it unfair and unbalanced.  And dont say, "Well just use a tach pulse or ion cannon".  Those weapons are heavies and take up the heavies hard points take should have torps on them.  Also, Tachs do very little damage and ion cannons do little damage at range which is the usual firing scenario in the case above.  But that isnt the point.  I shouldnt have to use inferior heavies or heavies at all to hit warping targets when every other race can with their primaries.  In my tests with fed phasers a bank of 4 phaser IV's was delivering on average 10 points of internal damage from range 30 or so for warping targets.  That seems like a clear and non-trivial  advantage to me.

Third, the klink dizzie is non-unique and indistinct from fed phaser.  The damage stats are nearly identical and as such it offers nothing to add  to the race identity of the kliinks except a tactical disadvantage.  The klink dizzie is the fed phaser is the rom dizzie is the borg cutting beam.  They all are a fill-in for the ubiquitous phaser in SFC2 and as such shows Taldren's remarkable inability to think up something new for SFC3.  Balance in SFC3 was foisted on the back of primaries being essentially the same, with minor race distinctions based on heavies.  So either give me the tactical blandness of nearly identical yet balanced primaries, or create something novel that adds tactical depth, but dont handicap one race and says it adds depth or color to the TNG world of SFC3.  It doesnt.

As to the D3 success of any race, that has more to do with number of players than race tech.  Roms are constantly underplayed. As I have said, I usually go rom just for the fact that they were always getting trounced and the BLUE PLAGUE benefitted from having a whole empire they could just overrun at any time to gain victory points.  The klink dizzie disadvantge is in pvp play not in the overall D3 campaign sense, although I will say that when I did play as a klink I am sure that being able to hit a target at warp would have surely helped me win a number of hexes.  Now if we add that up over all klink battles ever fought, that sounds like a big difference to me although it may not be apparent on the surface of things.

Finally, regardless of canon/non-cannon arguements, there is much in SFC3 that is non-canon (again whatever that is) namely, mines, raiding parties, plasma, whatever.  Taldren made conscious choices to keep somethings from SFC2, lose others, and make up some new things.  Be that as it may, it was within their discretion to create primaries that behaved essentially the same, and for some reason they chose not to for the klink dizzie.  To me, it doesnt make sense, is inbalancing, and is consistent in many ways with other SFC2 holdovers that demonstrate a lack of imagination on their part.  You are free to disagree with me, but you would be wrong.  Again, I say try klink for awhile and see how you find this lack of ability that all others have.  You might feel different when you are the one being short-changed.
 

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2003, 12:22:41 am »
   Okay, then, fire at them while they've stopped between warp, and use the tachyons to stop them going to warp. Yes, it takes a heavy slot, but its the price you pay to give chase. You'll never catch ships at warp anyways.

Alexander