Topic: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD  (Read 6966 times)

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Thanos1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2003, 08:53:11 pm »
You don't need to catch them. You just need to make them realize that warpmania doesn't come for free (read: armor/hull damage). If you are a klink, well, warpmania (from the opponent's side) DOES come for free.

-suleo  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2003, 11:37:51 pm »
   ...which is why you catch them  

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2003, 03:55:53 pm »
Um, a few points-

Tachyons...not universally great weapons, but not without their perks. Definitely not a standard weapon on Klingon vessels, so it rather sabotages player ship customization if you're faced with the choice of either taking one in lieu of a weapon you'd rather have, or giving the warpmaniac free reign by not having one. Tachyons aren't especially accurate either, despite firing a beam, according to the weapons charts, they are typically less accurate than a torpedo at range, meaning keeping someone from going to warp isn't quite so "point-and-shoot" as you make it sound. Tachyons aren't on Klingon bases or platforms, and they aren't going to chase anyone down either, so they are quite vulnerable to warping torpedo runs by solo ships (I got a base assault against a Klingon starbase, using a Falcon w/ two medium plasmas, I'll have a replay of it posted tomorrow, as the Defiant is often regarded as an uber-ship).

Alexander, I think you are also discounting the worth of those free shots at armor/hull other races get at warping targets. I've had wingmen try to retreat off the map, only to have their warp core phasered out off them as they attempt to warp off the map...shooting out somebody's systems certainly beats having to carry around a tachyon pulse just to put some hits on shields. Also, while I haven't timed transition rates in the current build, did you know a ship with a legendary engineer (in previous builds) could actually go to warp roughly half-a-second before a ship could uncloak? Not so bad if you got beams you can overload and zap that fool with, not very cool if you got bolts that can't connect.

Note too, that while 35 points-per-AMM mine-cheese was not without counters, that didn't change the fact something was very broke in that dynamic.

My point is this: bolt-firing primaries, be they Klink dizzies or Fed pulse phasers, because they utilize the same mechanics of torpedos, have inherited the same deficiencies as torpedos when engaging targets at warp, i.e. they are only going to hit if fired more or less parallel to the target's course.Tthis was done intentionally with torpedoes; bolts might have been conciously have been left to be limited in the same way, or it may have been an oversight whose implications hadn't really been thought of at the time. In either case, I would contend that it puts Klingon players at an unnecessary disadvantage (imagine if your Rom boat just HAD to have a class-V transporter for some reason...you could be a real irritant to the Borg, but you'd probably rather have that mass allocated to a better cloak, armor, etc. as a perpective on citing "tachyon pulse" as the ultimate answer), makes Klink AI ships are abnormally vulnerable to offensive warp tactics, and makes it so bases and planets (which are vital strategic targets in dynaverse play do to economy ratings or VC conditions for the particular server) can be taken out by a single vessel (not a big deal in the initial release, but very much so considering the "toughened" versions of base/planet assault mssions in the beta patches) with minimal risk to the attacker (to see how, check out my replay at BattleClinic.com)...these factors point to a weapon system whose very exploitable weakness qualifies it a being label "broken" and in need of a fix (maybe doubling the velocity of dizzy and pulse phaser bolts?).

Just out of curiousity, I think I'll put up a poll on the subject tomorrow.  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2003, 06:08:20 pm »

Should bolt weapons hit warp ships at the same accuracy rate as beam weapons?
 Yes
No



  Alexander  

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2003, 06:30:50 pm »
  Also, for point of strict fact, the tachyon pulse does as much damage as the k-photon, but is faster to load. So don't say that it would be a major disadvantage, except possibly at extreme range.

Alexander
 

Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2003, 07:34:20 pm »
Perhaps making the K-Dizzies sheild piercing the same way that Fed-Pulse Phasers do would offset that disadvantage?  After all, the reason that the Feds went to pulse phasers on the Defiant was that its was determined that most of the damage inflicted by phasers was with the intial impact.  
As for Phasers being fired at Warp, look to ST:Voy: Message in a Bottle.  The Prometheus wasted a Nebula at warp, with phasers.  Never, NEVER take anything written in any book as cannon, (there are a few exceptions but those are few and far between, Taylor's two Novels about Janeway about sum it up)  When thinking ST Cannon, you have approach it the same way you have to approach Star Wars Cannon...If it wasn't shown on the screen, it never happened.

I still dont think that sheilds should be dropped while at warp, but that seems to be common in most ST games since DW.  Heck, look no further than the CGI movies included with the game.  In the romulan scene, Klingon ships fired thier Dizzes at warp, Shrike disguised as Intrepid's shields absorb the hit, Raptor disguised as Neghvar fires romulan Dizzies (still at warp) destroying BoP.  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2003, 09:32:43 pm »
Alexander,

Its like you refuse to get it.  Exotic heavies cost more, often take more mass, take up a hard point for a better heavy, and are not necessary for other races to hit ships at warp.  And there is no chasing down someone warp jumping if they dont wish to be caught.  The only recourse a player has to keep them from using it as a repair tactic is to chase at warp, drop out of warp while they are turning to jump off at a new angle, fire primaries when you go to warp as heavies won't track to hit them.  Have you honestly never experienced the scenario I am describing, not to mention Krotz's warp dagger advantage against klinks?  I think you are clearly just refusing to see our points.  I get your points (other options, race differences, etc), but you clearly can't understand ours.  What I object to in your arguements is the disregard it shows for some clearly articulated points on our part, while you have supplied almost nothing to bolster your points save objecting to what we say. If there is some great reason for handicapping one race, I sure would like to hear it, other than "well that's how it is in the game, so".

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2003, 09:49:25 pm »
  Yes, I have experienced this. In my custom Falcon with only heavy torpedoes (see www.battleclinic.com). All I did was warp immediately after them, listen for the sound of them dropping from warp, and drop when I heard it. Then fire. its not complicated. And this was pre-patch, so don't talk to me about accuracy issues. Its perfectly possible to take on a war-jumper without blasting him out of warp.

What's going on here is that you refuse to diversify tactics. You lost a fight, and now you're saying it should be changed so that a straight shoot-out will beat excellent tactics. This will never happen. Get over it. It can be done. And no, I don;t have a replay, I didn't have replay saving on until after I signed up for the Battleclinic.

Just give chase. Tactics can and will beat a straight shoot-out. The fact that some tactics work better against some races than others is meaningless. Warp Jump is no more effective against klingons than core raids are against the borg.

Alexander
 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2003, 02:04:53 am »
Clearly, you have not faced the situation I have presented.  If the jumps are done properly which is not hard, heavies could never hit.  Most often, by the time one is dropping out of warp to be in weapons' range, the opponent's turn has occured and he is warping out. We are talking apples and oranges. You are talking about hitting them when they are standing still, we are talking about hitting them with primaries when at warp.  The only possible way the tactic you recommend could work is if you are following at warp closely.    If you are firing at range 50, it wont work.  If you are waiting to drop out of warp at a good weapons' range, the turn has been made and they are gone again.  I have danced after a guy for nearly an hour as a klink, just so he could show me that he could not be touched. You had to have been following closely which I would say is the exception rather than the rule for most warp scenarios.

I am sorry to say that I think you tip your hand a bit when it comes to tactical complexity.  A Falcon with only heavy torps?  Now that is cheesy.  Decloak, fire.  Whoopee!  Hope that's fun for you.  Perhaps you could write a C++ script to execute those monotonous "tactical"  manuevers over and over again. Or do you snipe?  I think you must have drunk the cool-aid to think there is anything tactical about SFC3.  It's more like exploiting game silliness than tactics in most instances.

My point is simple and has very little to do with "tactics".  The fact that all other races can hit warping targets is a significant disadvantage for klinks.  The reason that it should be so is completely arbitrary, therefore why not change it to balance things out.  Krotz and I have supplied two good examples of the present system's impacts on klink game play.  While certainly almost any disadvantage can be overcome or lived-with, there is nothing to say it has to be the way that it is. Alterations have been made to the AMM, cloak, other features in beta patch.  There is no particular reason why this should not be altered as well except for some vague arguements about race identity/differences.  Should they have left cloak detect rates the same and said "oh well, that's the way it is, live with it or adapt."?   I as a rom almost never used cloak and I think I was pretty successful doing so.  I viewed it more as a defensive than offensive option.  Be that as it may, there were significant enough complaints about cloaking for detection rates to be altered.  I submit that the same conditions pertain here.  If you so vehemently disagree with "race limitation whining"  then I suggest you lead a campaign to revert cloaking detection rates to pre-patch levels and deal with it or get over it as you say.  When shoe is on other foot, I am sure you would feel differently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Praxis

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2003, 03:16:57 am »
I think its more realistic- in Star Trek we have NEVER seen a vessel moving at impulse hit one at warp- ESPECIALLY with disruptors.  However we HAVE seen disruptors FIRED at warp.

Making good use of tactics can overcome this problem.  Heres an example.  I went in a battle with me in a Defiant and a newbie in an Akira and wasted him  I went in battle again, same newbie and another newbie, FFA.  The one i killed earlier decided to take a Defiant like me.  So did the other newbie.  So it was 3 players in Defiants.  The two newbies dueled, while i stood aside and watched, keeping out of range.  Neither took significant hull damage, but one lost quite a bit of shielding, and warped out.  I pointed myself at the battlefield at a point just in front of the newbie who had not yet warped, and pressed warp.  As i was flying at warp, he warped too, and since my course would have taken my in front of him, now he would pass in front of me.  JUST as he was about to pass over me i slammed the firing button, hitting him with 4 quantums while we were BOTH moving at warp.  (Legendary tactical officer lets me fire 2 shots per launcher )  he lost half his hull in an instant, then continued pursuing the other player, i jumped in and killed em both.

Adjusting your course to go head-to-head while the other player is at warp and firing torps will offset the disruptor problem.  If the player is coming at you, you can hit him, you only can't when he moves away.  And when the other player is moving away, even phasers and romulan disruptors USUALLY can't hit him because of the angular velocity at that speed and angle.

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2003, 06:35:32 pm »
   Actually, you slammed him with SIX torpedoes. It's three each.

I completely fail to understand how ANY player could be so incompetant that they couldn't hit one key within the 7 seconds is takes to re-warp. just LISTEN for it. its not hard. Its true that you hit their shields. Its ALSO true that the bulk of their weaponry can't hit you, unless they're playing a chicken-mod ship, which most players DON'T. If it helps, set your combat speed to 7 instead of 9, then you'll have a full 12 seconds to hit the button.

Have you actually TRIED what I've been suggesting, or are you just assuming it doesn't work? Its hardly apples and oranges. Its the same situation exactly, but its a DIFFERENT way around it. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. If you want to describe it with foods, then you might equate it to a starving man in a desert. You're asking god for a cheeseburger, and completely IGNORE the perfectly edible cacti around you. They may be HARDER to eat. It may require you to WORK, and TRY NEW THINGS, but it will STILL save your life.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2003, 07:20:08 pm »
'Ere we go again.

Canon is an unreliable guide for what should be; it's often conflicting, even without application to SFC3, or any other ST game.

There is no more reason to assume bolt-warping target interaction is an intended feature, any more than one can assume the broken stardate advancement in SP campaigns are a feature. On the other hand, to say it's an oversight would be speculation. I would therefore suggest neither of these two standpoints are really pertinent, as this has yet to be commented on one way or another officially.

Alexander, I actually do agree with you this isn't a game breaker in PvP, in most situations anyways, though there are ways in which a skilled player can exploit it; Klink players fighting AI ships obviously don't have a problem; the ease of using offensive warp tactics against Klink AIs is somewhat disturbing, but even the largest AI DN can be felled by an intelligently flown DD, so that's not too big a deal; I do take exception to the notion of current bolt-behavior being okay when these factors are added to the ABSOLUTE EASE by which Klink bases can be warp-daggered to pieces, for little or no harm to one's own ship, even the measly Falcon w/ a pair of M-plasmas  used in the replay I made just for you, Alexander ( here's the link @ battleclinic, don't worry it's pretty short ). Bases are potentially very important facilities on some servers, as they serve as AI spawn points (AIs can still impede movement, if nothing else), resupply points, can increase DVs for adjacent hexes, and can be key structures if part of VC conditions or when LOS/OA rules are in use (depending on the implementation). Klink planets are made more vulnerable by this as well, though it's generally a bit tedious to execute solo, because killing all those AI ships can take awhile; 3 DDs with quantums or medium plasmas (gravimetrics could do the trick too, but the aft arcs on Borg FFs and DDs are too narrow to get consistent use out of them; a diamonds front and side mounts would probably work though, haven't tried it yet) could do it pretty readily though. I invite you to try it, though don't use a Warbird or Scimitar, they're too wide, a Raptor should be okay though.

It's the cumulative ways (not even so much in PvP, as yes, a player can indeed partly compensate for it with good tactics) by which this deficiency can be exploited, which makes it broke, IMHO.

As I assume Alexander posted the poll here in the spirit of good intent, thank you, though I wish you would have waited, it probably would be more visible if it was its own topic, as opposed to being on the tail end post on this one.

 

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2003, 09:17:33 pm »
Simply said, the only incompetence displayed is your own.  The fact that you simply refuse to understand the arguments we have made clearly demonstrates that.  Have fun with your "race-based" views.  

Scorpion

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2003, 11:01:49 pm »
Hey guys.  I have been playing Klingon for a long time and I know exactly what you are talking about here.  I have been in numerous battles against fed ships who constantly warp around and fire torps at me or just warp away from me to retreat and I can never get a single disruptor shot to hit them unless they are coming straght at me or away from me.  This is irritating and I agree with Lepton that this is definitely a big disadvantage to the klinks that I would like to see changed, especially in the klingon starbases and outposts.  However, I have grown accustomed to this disadvantage and developed some tactics against warp-happy opponents.  I tend to cloak if they keep warping around.  This usually makes them stop warping because now they don't know where I am and they can't warp away from me if they don't know where I am.  This is when I sneak up on their aft and fire weapons at them before they can warp away.  I would keep doing this until they are convinced that warping around is not a good thing when fighting against cloakable ships (or until they are blown to bits ).  If they kept warping around still after I cloak, I would just cruise around slowly and wait for them to warp close enough to me and at a good angle for me to get a good shot at them and then decloak soon enough to fire a nice shot off at them.  I guess what I am trying to say here is that YES, I think that the klingon primaries are at a disadvantage, but there are still some ways to get around it.  It's not really that big of a problem compared to the problems that plagued the romulans before the beta. ( BTW, I'm still mainly a Klingon player and won't let something like this stand in my way. )        

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2003, 11:10:03 pm »
   ooo, race based slurs. I bet that one makes me a LOT easier to hate.

BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors. I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.

This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
 

Cmdr. Krotz

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2003, 12:36:24 am »
Quote:

 
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors.  




Not sure if this refers to the Falcon in my little demo, I just used mediums 'cuz lights took way too long, and you could conceivably still have some nominal disruptor armament, not that I was carrying anything like that at the time.


 
Quote:

   I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.  




Torps have always been able to fire  at warp, likely inspired by ST:TMP, it's quite intentional, and not likely to change. Calling the attack runs on the bases "warp-daggers" was actually something of a misnomer, it's more like "warp-strafing", you start the warp out of the target's weapons range, launch your overloaded torps while still at warp, and don't stop warping until you are out of weapons range again. The only way you get hit is if a) you don't get an oblique enough angle; b) you are too wide, like a Warbird; or c) an AI ship is sitting on your vector when it fires...because you only need to drop out of warp to turn around/not overshoot map borders, I'm afraid your solution really wouldn't be applicable.

 
Quote:

   This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.

Alexander
   




I read this as implying you believe Klink dizzies being able to hit warping targets would be damaging to PvP fights. I'm curious, why? I can certainly understand wanting to stay conservative, from the standpoint of wishing to avoid opening a Pandora's Box of lending legimacy to silly requests like upping Polaron damage or having Borg pyramids that eat Sovs for breakfast to be more "canon", and other such nonsense; on the other hand I have a hard time seeing  changing the bolts to allow them to hit warping targets as something that leads to Klingons becoming some kind of unbeatable Red Menace in PvP
(a charge, humorously enough, that might have been levied on the patched Romulans, were it not that the beta servers are relatively quiet...not that it should be implied I think that, it just seemed somehow ironic to me).  

Lepton1

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2003, 02:00:17 am »
I dont hate you.  To me your just words on a page.  What I dislike is your inability to acknowledge something outside of the purview of your opinion.  Sounds like to me if you dont think it, it must be wrong. Although, you seem to be shifting slowly to our side.  Watch out you might just have a conversion experience. Dont be swayed!  You really are winning, dude!  HEHE!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Alexander1701

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2003, 02:37:31 pm »
  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
 

KD4

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2003, 11:07:40 pm »
Quote:

  What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.

I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.

And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.

I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.

Alexander
   




you realy cant belive this about it being the klingons only  weekness if you do you realy need to fly klingon more because you apperantly have not played them much ether that or you are feeding us a bunch of s---  

Blitzkrieg

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Re: Bolt-Firing Primaries + Warping Targets = BAD
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2003, 05:21:53 am »
Personaly I found the Klingons to have many strong characteristics that over came there weaknesses.

My overwealmingly blue oppinion on this is, that Klingons do good enough as it is. I played a coueple of warp dancing Fed DN's and found them to be easy targets in the grand scheme of things, especialy seems they lined up for a full frontal warp attack (how silly). Those K-Torps overloaded do a great deal of damage against there unprotected hulls, also the Ion cannon appears to hit a lot at warp (note, appears). This MORE than makes up for it, especialy when you consider the ability to cloak makes warp dancing tougher.