Topic: A final thought on Taldren  (Read 30981 times)

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Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2004, 10:49:18 am »
Quote
Have you seen the manuals for 3ed edition D&D? 300 pages covers about 2 manuals out of about a half dozen or so. NWN has a server, dm client, player client, tool set and single player element. I'd say much more complex. Plus its a true 3d game with 360 degree camera. And has the ability to easily add custom content and has a c+ based scripting language built in.

Over all I'd say more complex then SFC. Certainly you can disagree.

Oh yes I remember (vaguely ;)) playing AD&D and other RPGs, good point. (showing my lack of knowledge of NWN - I only tried the demo once and didn't like it.)

Edit: also, I have a bias: I'm an SFC addict and love it! Even with the rough spots I still have a great time with playing it, modding it, and tinkering with an imperfect serverkit (part of what draws me to it I maybe?) Check my homepage link to get an idea of the depth of the sickness... ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:04:05 am by Bonk »

Offline Crusader

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2004, 10:54:42 am »
By the way, I'm Mr. Hypergol from the Taldren forums.  I'm now Crusader.

Now on to my reply:

Since I was a Star Fleet Battles fan I was very tolerant of the bugs.

The fact that Taldren arranged to have the game fixed and upgraded testifies to their integrity.

But.....here is what I think the root of the bug problems with all the games was:

Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

The bugs are the result of conflicting requirements between the publisher and Taldren.  The publisher wants to minimize development time which in this case, due to the complexity, is especially detrimental to quality.  Considering what the market for this game was expected to be, I surmise that Taldren would have never found a publisher willing to make the game for what it would have really cost to make SFC perfect at release.  Taldren was forced to accept inadequate funding and schedule in order to get the project published at all.

So with each SFC game, Taldren basically struggled to get the product barely releasable, and then hoped to finish the game after release with patches.  This is the ONLY way SFC would have ever been made.

The initial bugginess of SFC can also be compared to the situation with Microsoft Windows.  Both SFC and Windows are very complex programs.  Since the source code for everything these days is a secret, complex software programs are naturally buggy because they have become too complicated for a small group of people to deal with.  This is why Windows is buggy and getting buggier and also why SFC was buggy.

SFC solved this problem by opening up the source code to a larger group of people who volunteered their services.  So in a way they went "open source" in the manner of the Linux operating system.  The result is a much more bug free game.

The "open source" revolution is underway.  Linux is a good example of this.  Window's closed source days are numbered (in the same way the Soviet Union's days were numbered....i.e. central control of everything led to it's downfall.)

Any future SFC game would benefit greatly from being "open source" from the start.  Given the complexities of Star Fleet Battles, I think Taldren did the best anyone could have hoped for.


Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2004, 10:57:53 am »
Instead of "final thought" it should have been titled....final running rant... ???

What is the whole purpose for the thread?

To gloat?

I mean...WTF?

<edit>

I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

You will simply continue with the "yeah but" crap to anything anyone says...

So what you are really trying to say is.....TALDREN SUCKS AND THEY DESERVED TO GO OUT OF BUSSINESS....

Ok kid...we got it...you made your point....now frickin drop it...

Or be booted for the trollish attitude twords people who disagree with you...

The only thing that really amazes me....the people who have Taldren issues generally gave up on them years ago...and only now return to piss on the grave....

Well...IF YOU GAVE UP ON TALDREN YEARS AGO.....WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE TO RETURN NOW?....if not to troll? >:(





Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2004, 11:01:27 am »

> I completely disagree with you.

Why? what did I say that was not accurate?

> I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
> I love them all.

You are entitled to, didnt say otherwise.

> I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
> That is the sign of a good product.

One could say a 'good' product is one that works as advertised. Not one that has a bonus feature.

> You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.

On the contrary, didnt I say I was very happy with bioware products? I am pleased when a product works. SFC never fully got fixed/working. Especially when it was broken out of the box after shelling out $50.

> Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.

Full of teen angst are we? *chuckle*






Harlequin,

Not even Windows comes "out of th box" perfect.
Taldren provided patches, and I was happy to get them.


You don't buy video games too often do you?


AgentSloan

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2004, 11:09:40 am »
Instead of "final thought" it should have been titled....final running rant... ???

What is the whole purpose for the thread?

To gloat?

I mean...WTF?

<edit>

I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

You will simply continue with the "yeah but" crap to anything anyone says...

So what you are really trying to say is.....TALDREN SUCKS AND THEY DESERVED TO GO OUT OF BUSSINESS....

Ok kid...we got it...you made your point....now frickin drop it...

Or be booted for the trollish attitude twords people who disagree with you...

The only thing that really amazes me....the people who have Taldren issues generally gave up on them years ago...and only now return to piss on the grave....

Well...IF YOU GAVE UP ON TALDREN YEARS AGO.....WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE TO RETURN NOW?....if not to troll? >:(






I didn't take the post as nearly so agressive - it read to me like he was simply saying that Taldren lost customers to bugs over the years. Not that mean a thing to say.  (Me I'm still angry about the whole SFC3 thing, but I stuck with them anyway, and now here - there's something "special" about old SFB players on SFC that makes the community what it is to me  - quite different from other types ogames)

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2004, 11:25:08 am »
Hello Bonk, :)

There are,

(i). single-player "people",
(ii). multi-player "people",

If you are a on-line multi-player person, the game is more apt to be pushed to its limits.
At the games limits, unforseen things can happen, and the game may crash.

That is what the patches are for.


Me-self, I'm a 3d starship kitbasher,  :ufo:
I stay in single-player,
I fly starships in a very basic "no frills" style....

"...I see 'em, I charge in guns-a-blazing,..."
 :2gun:

FYI, to let you know my point-of-view.


Take care :)
AgentSloan.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:29:53 am by AgentSloan »

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2004, 12:53:30 pm »
> Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

While 'worship' is too stong a word IMO, I certainly give them A+ for effort. D+, at best, for execution.

While its not impossible to translate a game PnP game to the PC its very difficult. Some compromises have to be made. I previouslly stated my admiration for Bioware. BUT they had to make some changes to the D&D rules as well. While it wasnt a perfect translaton to 3e D&D it was about as best as you can get in a PC translation. So I dont hold that against taldren for the changes vs the PnP version.

My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2004, 12:55:47 pm »
> I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

congrats to bring the first post I consider 'flame bait' to a very civil discussion/thread

And for the record quantum physics is a bit of a hobby of mine...

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2004, 01:02:02 pm »
Actually wasn't the D2 added after about 6 months after release?  After months of "We will only release when it's ready", but then dumped it out there just before heading off to E3 to unveil Orion Pirates, and it was in a horrid state?

I stand corrected, good point.

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2004, 01:06:01 pm »
> Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

While 'worship' is too stong a word IMO, I certainly give them A+ for effort. D+, at best, for execution.

While its not impossible to translate a game PnP game to the PC its very difficult. Some compromises have to be made. I previouslly stated my admiration for Bioware. BUT they had to make some changes to the D&D rules as well. While it wasnt a perfect translaton to 3e D&D it was about as best as you can get in a PC translation. So I dont hold that against taldren for the changes vs the PnP version.

My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced.


Taldren dropped "us like yesterdays newspaper",...?

Who is "us",....?
and,
What do you mean "dropped",...?


AgentSloan

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2004, 01:20:21 pm »
So answer the question genious......

What is the purpose of the whole thread?...it's a pretty simple question...

I consider your very first post trollish and flameworthy...

<edit>

never mind...I got my answer...

Quote
My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced

So it's personal...you felt screwed somehow...

Customer support...

Now that...is something I bet the majority here would argue....I myself...being a tester will surely argue...One reason taldren spent so much time fixing stuff is due to the rabid fan base the dedication of the Devs....And the donation of hundreds of hours of time testing stuff....

When Taldren HAD to move on to revenue generating projects....they STLL gave customer support by letting Khoromag continue fixes...

Dave himself did the final fixes for OP....

So...no...you'll never convince me that Taldren wasnt a success because it didnt care for it's fan base....Taldren went under for a myriad of financial reasons...some self inflicted...some due to decisions of outside entities...

But to say Taldren didnt support us well beyond what other companies track records are...is a sick joke...

Even in going under...Taldren gave its last bit of "customer support"..by helping get the forum DB ported over here.....

Thus your abiltiy to come and troll. :-\
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 01:37:10 pm by KBF-Crim »

Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2004, 01:33:48 pm »
I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.  Heck, how long did the EAW D2 work better than OP's?  It's not totally fair to transfer this over to SFC3 since there were other obstacles in their path for releasing patches as often as they would have liked, but they did release patches and fixes for OP after the release of SFC3.  The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).  When you consider the number of folks who were around making the fixes though, I would guess it's not that bad.  Heck Dave Ferrell kept plugging away at it until the end, and definitely deserves more than a mild "thank you" (and I say that as someone who was banned by him ;) )

I think Taldren was manned by well intentioned folks who probably bit off a bit more than they could handle and were probably mismanaged a bit.  There is certainly blame for the various problems with the games, but I certainly do not believe that it was all "The Publisher" every time.  I mean they went through 3 publishers, all of whom had the same problems with missed deadlines and such.   I don't think that Taldren was incapable of getting the job done, but somewhere along the line things were mismanaged to a degree or someone agreed to far, far less time than the project needed, imo.  I do believe that they had good intentions (at least at first, as I do kind of wonder about whether SFC3 was a cash grab, as it seemed to lack content, imo) and are generally good people who were trying to do something different by being much more responsive to fans than some companies.

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2004, 01:43:54 pm »
Lets face it, they didnt get any help with Acti - Lack of - Vision being the publisher.  STCD and STGD has had numerous run in's with them regarding the poor stance they have in trek gaming.  Back in the VERY old days of trek gaming (something not a lot of people can remember) you had the classics like Starfleet Academy, Klingon Academy, the original SFC.  All this was due to some friendly compeition between the major publishers...Simon & Schuster, Activision, Spectrum Holobyte (MicroProse) and Interplay.

Once Activision got all the licenses the following happened...

Armada 2, Elite Force 2, Starfleet Command 3, ConQuest Online.

Now i personally think Armada 2 is a good game, its lacking in some aspects, but i still personally like it.  Elite Force 2?  Complete and total disaster...MP only had one map and there was issues with games and the amount of people playing them when in GameSpy Arcade.  ConQuest Online was another disaster, it was Pay For Play (yes, there was a PfP trek game) which was basically chess with Star Trek pieces, there was a lot of strategy, but guess what?  Activision pulled the plug on the whole lot 9 months after it was released.

Then of course we have SFC 3...mixed results.

You take out the competition between the punlishers and the good games die.  You will still get buggy games, that much is certain.  SFC 3 is based on the OP engine and that game has taken soooooo long to patch up, SFC was bound to have issues.  It doesnt help with Activision being the publisher.  A publisher who probably knew that they would be suing viacom by that time.  The one bain is the slow release on patches which has happened all the way through the SFC series.  

As trek gaming goes on though Paramount themsevles are taking a greater interest in what is happening right here, right now.  They are continuing to visit the STGD and STGU central forums and they are posting away to let people know that they do still care.  STGD itself will be holding an interview with Harry Lang of paramount in the very near future.  There is also something happening in the background which may see the return, at least partially, of the old Trek gaming official message boards and site, a lot of new gamers are buying the game and going to the official gaming section at www.startrek.com and seeing nothing, STGD has asked for the return of the official gaming boards for the support and interest of the new Star Trek gaming players...plus...its a good place to spam... *cough* advertise :)
Good on you Victor1st this what I am talking about.It is the Publishers not the developers and Taldren is a developer and never carried the license from Paramount.If this was Taldrens board you would have a lot of their Moderators correcting on this as well as Ann her self.There where two other rules over at Taldrens boards don't bad mouth Taldren and the games.I will never be able to get my Starfleet Academy and New World  fixed.I have on my address bar a utility called iespell Internet Explorer Spell checker ,Pestalence put it on two forums in Taldrens boards and I DL it and I have always used it since.I will have to get over to STGD more often.

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2004, 02:13:39 pm »
  Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2004, 02:18:08 pm »
> I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.

Keep in mind after the SFC2 mess I stopped buying the series, never bought op or sfc3 so I can not comment on those products. I can only speak of the expereinces until I decided I cut my losses. I think my comments about SFC1 and 2 in of themsevles are accurate IMO.

> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).

Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

> I think Taldren was manned by well intentioned folks who probably bit off a bit more than they could handle and were probably mismanaged a bit.  There is certainly blame for the various problems with the games, but I certainly do not believe that it was all "The Publisher" every time.  I mean they went through 3 publishers, all of whom had the same problems with missed deadlines and such. 

Well said. I called them incompitant right before I left the sfc community. While harsh I think its a accurate assesment. You can only blame so much on a publisher. At some point they have to take blame.

In a nut shell, as we both said, they tried a bigger project then they were able to handle. And we now see the final result of their mismanagment and inability. Certainly sad, but not surprising.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2004, 02:22:17 pm »
> So answer the question genious......

I dont engage flame bait or trolls.

When you learn how to get your point across w/o the need for insults or being combative then perhaps we can have a discussion. not a flame war as you so badly seem to want.

Have a nice day.

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2004, 02:25:57 pm »
Hello KBF-Crim, :)

Ole AgentSloan here,....


<snip>


Now that...is something I bet the majority here would argue....I myself...being a tester will surely argue...One reason taldren spent so much time fixing stuff is due to the rabid fan base the dedication of the Devs....And the donation of hundreds of hours of time testing stuff....

When Taldren HAD to move on to revenue generating projects....they STLL gave customer support by letting Khoromag continue fixes...

Dave himself did the final fixes for OP....

<snip>


I completely agree with you.
Taldren gave "above and beyond" patches for the games,
and David Ferrell busted his ass to do the patches for SFC: OP, when he was even leaving the Company,....

and ole AgentSloan, does not give "Taldren and David Ferrell" praise lightly,

Let us give credit, where credit is honourably due,.... they did good by us, the customers and the SFC community :)

Well done Taldren, and David Ferrell :)
 :thumbsup: :dance: :thumbsup:


Take care, :)
AgentSloan

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2004, 02:27:28 pm »
> So answer the question genious......

I dont engage flame bait or trolls.

When you learn how to get your point across w/o the need for insults or being combative then perhaps we can have a discussion. not a flame war as you so badly seem to want.

Have a nice day.


Harlequin,...?

Please tell me ".... what is the beef,...?"


AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2004, 02:32:27 pm »
Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

Your information seems a wee bit skewed.

WON.Net pulling out In the last minute is why the D2 was not working at release,NOT because it did not work.

Should Taldren have told us before hand?????? You betcha,if they did would we have ever seen a working D2???? I doubt it.
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Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2004, 02:33:10 pm »
> I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.

Keep in mind after the SFC2 mess I stopped buying the series, never bought op or sfc3 so I can not comment on those products. I can only speak of the expereinces until I decided I cut my losses. I think my comments about SFC1 and 2 in of themsevles are accurate IMO.

> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).

Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

....


Harlequin,

I bought SFC,
then I bought SFC II: EAW....

SFC II: EAW was, in my opinion a big jump in quality,
I really got into it due to the second game...

I assume your beef is with the on-line "Multi-Player" mode,
Is this the case?
If so what specifically did you not like then?



AgentSloan