Topic: A final thought on Taldren  (Read 30930 times)

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Offline Harlequin

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A final thought on Taldren
« on: June 30, 2004, 03:03:53 pm »
A forewarning.. This is not a 'lets hold hands, sing round the campfire and sing songs' kind of post about Taldren and its demise. If you do NOT want to read anything critical about taldren then please stop reading and move on to another post.



First, I have sympathy for the employees of taldren. I am not sure how many people worked @ taldren in the end but they all have families to feed and its sad whenever any company closes. Certainly my heart goes out to all those newly unemployed.

With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).

I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.

I for one washed my hands of taldren after the sfc2 mess. A broken game missing promised core features, that took months to get a patch out that got the game semi-working. That was the last straw for me and this company, it lost me as a customer. And from the current state of affairs it looks like I wasnt the only one. Thus I find it surprising why there this big awe and surprise they shut down, I, and am sure others, saw this coming a yr or two ago unless they changed their ways as a company.

On a side noteI think they could have taken a few pointers from bioware on how to run as a company. While a few minor features got cut (as expected in any development, game or otherwise) in their massive project neverwinter nights, in shipped more or less as promsied working out of the box. And they STILL, after 2+ yrs, put out updates to tweak, patch and add new content. If taldren learned some lessons for companies like bioware they may still be around. If a company like taldren tried a project the size of nwn I can only imagine the disaster it would have turned out to be. Harsh perhaps, but my honest view point.

With that all said, I do think taldren had some excellent creative minds and give them credit for that. They also were very personable and took care of its community from what I saw, another good trait. But that wasnt enough. You need to have good business ethics and compitancy. Which,  sadly, they didnt seem to have.

In the end I will toast them, for when their game worked it did give me enjoymant, and I have no ill feelings to them as people, just as a compnay who I feel I was taken by.

Good luck to all the ex-taldren employees, I hope you all find safe landing.

Harlequin

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SSCF-Rolling

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2004, 09:11:10 pm »
Just glancing over this post, I feel that you spoke well in expressing yourself.

Your post did not leave me with bad feelings.

I may not agree, but you did it with some respect.

You have bad feelings about what they produced.  That is fine.

I appreciate that you did not come in and talk with a trashy mouth.

Sometimes things do go wrong and things are not like you had hope.

But I do not know their side, I was not there, so I will not judge.

I don't think they sat around a table and said, "Hey!!! Let's do a half job on this and send out a game unfinished!!!"  "Yeah!!! That would be a great idea."

There are always things in the background that we do not see.  I have to give them a benefit of the doubt that they tried their hardest to produce a game worth playing.

That's just another perspective.

I've enjoyed myself here and playing the game.  I'm thankful for both.

But thanks for having class and expressing yourself without the trashing.

Sincerely,

Kimberly
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 09:16:07 pm by SSCF-Rolling »

Offline Don Karnage

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2004, 09:46:21 pm »
sure the 4th sfc games (sfc1, sfc2 eaw, sfc2 op, sfc3) could have Ben fix fully, mostly sfc1, like many place the stop and concentrate on the new, but when the lunch sfc3 the seem to have made a rush with ti, the did make well design ship but since the only made 4 race the could made more race and do more type of ship, but if the ask the player what to do for the sfc3 we could have told them what we wanted but nook, and since taldren is no longer the will be no sfc4, sure it cost money and time to make a game, but with the help of the comunity the would have made it faster and bether, now if someone do make a sfc4 it might be a bad game since the don't know of the forum and player and or the wont consider what the player's want in a sfc4.

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2004, 11:22:37 pm »
Hello Harlequin, :)


<snip>

With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).

I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.

<snip>


I completely disagree with you.

I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
I love them all.

I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
That is the sign of a good product.

You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.
Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.



AgentSloan

Offline Merlinfmct87

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 12:14:31 am »
Hello Harlequin, :)


<snip>

With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).

I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.

<snip>


I completely disagree with you.

I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
I love them all.

I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
That is the sign of a good product.

You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.
Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.



AgentSloan

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Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2004, 12:34:04 am »
sure the 4th sfc games (sfc1, sfc2 eaw, sfc2 op, sfc3) could have Ben fix fully, mostly sfc1, like many place the stop and concentrate on the new, but when the lunch sfc3 the seem to have made a rush with ti, the did make well design ship but since the only made 4 race the could made more race and do more type of ship, but if the ask the player what to do for the sfc3 we could have told them what we wanted but nook, and since taldren is no longer the will be no sfc4, sure it cost money and time to make a game, but with the help of the comunity the would have made it faster and bether, now if someone do make a sfc4 it might be a bad game since the don't know of the forum and player and or the wont consider what the player's want in a sfc4.
Taldren is still around only in S.Korea and still has a Web site www.taldren.com and I discovered if the source code is released they will not be making anymore SFC games because the programmers in hear can do it.That is why I am opposed to it.Then you would have DL the new game from the programmers web sites and what support will they offer and would have to burn it to CD.If the source code is released that is it for any future SFC series of games that is if Taldren comes out with a new source code possibly more 3D
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 01:17:51 pm by Age »

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 12:50:28 am »
A forewarning.. This is not a 'lets hold hands, sing round the campfire and sing songs' kind of post about Taldren and its demise. If you do NOT want to read anything critical about taldren then please stop reading and move on to another post.



First, I have sympathy for the employees of taldren. I am not sure how many people worked @ taldren in the end but they all have families to feed and its sad whenever any company closes. Certainly my heart goes out to all those newly unemployed.

With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).

I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.

I for one washed my hands of taldren after the sfc2 mess. A broken game missing promised core features, that took months to get a patch out that got the game semi-working. That was the last straw for me and this company, it lost me as a customer. And from the current state of affairs it looks like I wasnt the only one. Thus I find it surprising why there this big awe and surprise they shut down, I, and am sure others, saw this coming a yr or two ago unless they changed their ways as a company.

On a side noteI think they could have taken a few pointers from bioware on how to run as a company. While a few minor features got cut (as expected in any development, game or otherwise) in their massive project neverwinter nights, in shipped more or less as promsied working out of the box. And they STILL, after 2+ yrs, put out updates to tweak, patch and add new content. If taldren learned some lessons for companies like bioware they may still be around. If a company like taldren tried a project the size of nwn I can only imagine the disaster it would have turned out to be. Harsh perhaps, but my honest view point.

With that all said, I do think taldren had some excellent creative minds and give them credit for that. They also were very personable and took care of its community from what I saw, another good trait. But that wasnt enough. You need to have good business ethics and compitancy. Which,  sadly, they didnt seem to have.

In the end I will toast them, for when their game worked it did give me enjoymant, and I have no ill feelings to them as people, just as a compnay who I feel I was taken by.

Good luck to all the ex-taldren employees, I hope you all find safe landing.

Harlequin

http://shadowlands.blogdns.net
irc-shadowland.ath.cx


This was not Taldrens fault it was the publishers fault and you seem new to all this as it has been posted and talked about on Taldrens Boards in several categories and several  threads and I was only a user there for over 5 months so blame the publishers especially Activision.They destroyed all remaining copies of SFC3 after dismal sales after the Nemesis movie did poorly at the box office.You are quite new to all this now is a time to learn.I would use the spellchecker to as my iespell pick up several mistakes.

Offline Mog

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 01:53:31 am »
Age, Harlequin is far from new lol. I certainly remember him from before D2 being released, and, if you'd actually read his post and understood it, you'd realise that too. As for telling him to use a spell checker - lmao.
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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2004, 03:06:33 am »
With all due respect to the creative and undeniably talented folks who worked on these games, Harlequin  has a very valid point.  Even if the fault lies largely with Activision, the SFC games were frustratingly buggy.  I don't know that I was ever able to finish the Romulan campaign in the first game.  The simple truth is that if you have a program that frequently and consistently crashes for no evident reason, you do not have a quality product.  I quit playing SFCI shortly after I bought it precisely because of the crashes.  I got back into it and bought the sequels when I discovered modding, and truth be told, I have spent far more time playing with the shiplist and kitbashing models than actually playing the game.  I never bought SFC3 because of the complaints, both of bugs and of dropped or dumbed down features.  I'm not going to blame Taldren; for the sake of argument we can assume it is all because of Activision's greedy deadlines.  However, the fact remains that the games were never quite the solid, quality products I, and no doubt many others, wished for.  The games still make for very entertaining play, and I have no regrets about buying them, and I am as always in awe of people that know how to use lines of code to create such complex things, but I am sometimes saddened to think of what could have been if the circumstances had been different.  Even if it is all because of contractual ties with Activision, Harlequin is probably right that the continual troubles with the games were probably part of what destroyed Taldren, or at least a symptom of the real problems. 

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2004, 07:58:58 am »
<snip>

I got back into it and bought the sequels when I discovered modding, and truth be told, I have spent far more time playing with the shiplist and kitbashing models than actually playing the game.  I never bought SFC3 because of the complaints, both of bugs and of dropped or dumbed down features.
 

How much time have you spent kitbashing 3d starship models?
Did you enjoy it?

Well?


AgentSloan

SSCF-Rolling

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2004, 08:49:49 am »
I am so proud of you gentlemen!!!!

A lovely debate with taste and class.

Although telling someone they need a spell checker is a rather low blow.  <snicker>

Very nicely done in keeping the respect for each other and their opinions!

Kimberly

Offline Chris SI

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2004, 09:03:12 am »
Many companies won't even answer requests for patches or improvements.

Taldren kept at it for years, and I know from my own experience, almost NO games come out that don't need to be patched, its the nature of PC games.

Maybe SFC series wasn't perfect, but you could do a lot worse than Taldren as far as customer support.

Just my two cents.
Taldren poster known as FFZ

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2004, 09:07:22 am »
>Just glancing over this post, I feel that you spoke well in expressing yourself.

Thanks

> Sometimes things do go wrong and things are not like you had hope.

I wont dispute that. But neither should I suffer for the ills of someone else, especially when I put down $50. for a product.

> But I do not know their side, I was not there, so I will not judge.

Then I am confused.. you said you dont agree with me but then admit you dont know all the details. How is it you dont agree with me?

> I don't think they sat around a table and said, "Hey!!! Let's do a half job on this and send out a game unfinished!!!"  "Yeah!!! That would be a great idea."

Rarely is that the case. But the end result is all that matters, everything else is just excuses. And look where their excuse after excuse got them. The buying public will only put up with so much.

> There are always things in the background that we do not see.  I have to give them a benefit of the doubt that they tried their hardest to produce a game worth playing.

I have little doubt they tried. My issue is they bit off more then they could chew and their product didnt improve nor did they learn from past mistakes. In that way, the blame can fall no where else but on their shoulders.

> But thanks for having class and expressing yourself without the trashing.

That would have served little purpose. I got over my anger at them long ago. :)

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2004, 09:11:01 am »

> I completely disagree with you.

Why? what did I say that was not accurate?

> I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
> I love them all.

You are entitled to, didnt say otherwise.

> I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
> That is the sign of a good product.

One could say a 'good' product is one that works as advertised. Not one that has a bonus feature.

> You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.

On the contrary, didnt I say I was very happy with bioware products? I am pleased when a product works. SFC never fully got fixed/working. Especially when it was broken out of the box after shelling out $50.

> Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.

Full of teen angst are we? *chuckle*




Victor1st

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2004, 09:12:23 am »
Lets face it, they didnt get any help with Acti - Lack of - Vision being the publisher.  STCD and STGD has had numerous run in's with them regarding the poor stance they have in trek gaming.  Back in the VERY old days of trek gaming (something not a lot of people can remember) you had the classics like Starfleet Academy, Klingon Academy, the original SFC.  All this was due to some friendly compeition between the major publishers...Simon & Schuster, Activision, Spectrum Holobyte (MicroProse) and Interplay.

Once Activision got all the licenses the following happened...

Armada 2, Elite Force 2, Starfleet Command 3, ConQuest Online.

Now i personally think Armada 2 is a good game, its lacking in some aspects, but i still personally like it.  Elite Force 2?  Complete and total disaster...MP only had one map and there was issues with games and the amount of people playing them when in GameSpy Arcade.  ConQuest Online was another disaster, it was Pay For Play (yes, there was a PfP trek game) which was basically chess with Star Trek pieces, there was a lot of strategy, but guess what?  Activision pulled the plug on the whole lot 9 months after it was released.

Then of course we have SFC 3...mixed results.

You take out the competition between the punlishers and the good games die.  You will still get buggy games, that much is certain.  SFC 3 is based on the OP engine and that game has taken soooooo long to patch up, SFC was bound to have issues.  It doesnt help with Activision being the publisher.  A publisher who probably knew that they would be suing viacom by that time.  The one bain is the slow release on patches which has happened all the way through the SFC series.  

As trek gaming goes on though Paramount themsevles are taking a greater interest in what is happening right here, right now.  They are continuing to visit the STGD and STGU central forums and they are posting away to let people know that they do still care.  STGD itself will be holding an interview with Harry Lang of paramount in the very near future.  There is also something happening in the background which may see the return, at least partially, of the old Trek gaming official message boards and site, a lot of new gamers are buying the game and going to the official gaming section at www.startrek.com and seeing nothing, STGD has asked for the return of the official gaming boards for the support and interest of the new Star Trek gaming players...plus...its a good place to spam... *cough* advertise :)

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2004, 09:15:39 am »
> This was not Taldrens fault it was the publishers fault

yes..yes.. first rule of PR.. deflect the blame.

> and you seem new to all this

I was around since SFC1 on interplay boards. I am far from 'new' to this topic. I just washed my hands of it after getting burned twice. At the risk of sounds combative, your the newbie.

> I would use the spellchecker to as my iespell pick up several mistakes.

LOL.. is that sorta like using proper puncuation and grammer too? Does 'run on sentance' mean anything to you kiddo? .. pot.. kettle.. black..

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2004, 09:21:40 am »
I cannot disagree with the bulk of your initial post, well said.

The only thing I really disagree with is comparison of NWN development to SFC development. NWN strikes me as glorified warcraft/starcraft/diablo - a much simpler development situation - not based on a paper game with a 300+ page ruleset...

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2004, 09:32:36 am »
> Many companies won't even answer requests for patches or improvements.

There a minority acually, unless your talking bargin bin products. What would be better is if they didnt take MONTHS after the game released (SFC2sprcificlye) to get semi-working, and still then MONTHS more for the full multi-play features to get rolled out. By then they alienated a good chunk of their player base when it takes a 3-4 months to get a semi-working game with most of the promised featuers. Lets not forget the dynaverse did NOT ship with SFC2. It was added 3 or 4 months after it was released if I recall correctly.

> Taldren kept at it for years, and I know from my own experience, almost NO games come out that don't need to be patched, its the nature of PC games.

I expect a game to be patched. Thats not the issue. The issue is all 3 games of the series shipped broken/missing core promised features and tooks months betwwn patches and was finally abandoned beofre it got fully working to work on the next project. In essence leaving all the players to holding the bag. You think thats a mark of a good company?

>Maybe SFC series wasn't perfect, but you could do a lot worse than Taldren as far as customer support.

Lets be honest, you can do a LOT better as well.. fraxis, impression games, bioware to name just a few.


Quote

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2004, 09:41:10 am »
> I cannot disagree with the bulk of your initial post, well said.

Thanks

> The only thing I really disagree with is comparison of NWN development to SFC development. NWN strikes me as glorified warcraft/starcraft/diablo - a much simpler development situation - not based on a paper game with a 300+ page ruleset...

Have you seen the manuals for 3ed edition D&D? 300 pages covers about 2 manuals out of about a half dozen or so. NWN has a server, dm client, player client, tool set and single player element. I'd say much more complex. Plus its a true 3d game with 360 degree camera. And has the ability to easily add custom content and has a c+ based scripting language built in.

Over all I'd say more complex then SFC. Certainly you can disagree. :)



Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2004, 10:17:34 am »
Actually wasn't the D2 added after about 6 months after release?  After months of "We will only release when it's ready", but then dumped it out there just before heading off to E3 to unveil Orion Pirates, and it was in a horrid state?

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2004, 10:49:18 am »
Quote
Have you seen the manuals for 3ed edition D&D? 300 pages covers about 2 manuals out of about a half dozen or so. NWN has a server, dm client, player client, tool set and single player element. I'd say much more complex. Plus its a true 3d game with 360 degree camera. And has the ability to easily add custom content and has a c+ based scripting language built in.

Over all I'd say more complex then SFC. Certainly you can disagree.

Oh yes I remember (vaguely ;)) playing AD&D and other RPGs, good point. (showing my lack of knowledge of NWN - I only tried the demo once and didn't like it.)

Edit: also, I have a bias: I'm an SFC addict and love it! Even with the rough spots I still have a great time with playing it, modding it, and tinkering with an imperfect serverkit (part of what draws me to it I maybe?) Check my homepage link to get an idea of the depth of the sickness... ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:04:05 am by Bonk »

Offline Crusader

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2004, 10:54:42 am »
By the way, I'm Mr. Hypergol from the Taldren forums.  I'm now Crusader.

Now on to my reply:

Since I was a Star Fleet Battles fan I was very tolerant of the bugs.

The fact that Taldren arranged to have the game fixed and upgraded testifies to their integrity.

But.....here is what I think the root of the bug problems with all the games was:

Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

The bugs are the result of conflicting requirements between the publisher and Taldren.  The publisher wants to minimize development time which in this case, due to the complexity, is especially detrimental to quality.  Considering what the market for this game was expected to be, I surmise that Taldren would have never found a publisher willing to make the game for what it would have really cost to make SFC perfect at release.  Taldren was forced to accept inadequate funding and schedule in order to get the project published at all.

So with each SFC game, Taldren basically struggled to get the product barely releasable, and then hoped to finish the game after release with patches.  This is the ONLY way SFC would have ever been made.

The initial bugginess of SFC can also be compared to the situation with Microsoft Windows.  Both SFC and Windows are very complex programs.  Since the source code for everything these days is a secret, complex software programs are naturally buggy because they have become too complicated for a small group of people to deal with.  This is why Windows is buggy and getting buggier and also why SFC was buggy.

SFC solved this problem by opening up the source code to a larger group of people who volunteered their services.  So in a way they went "open source" in the manner of the Linux operating system.  The result is a much more bug free game.

The "open source" revolution is underway.  Linux is a good example of this.  Window's closed source days are numbered (in the same way the Soviet Union's days were numbered....i.e. central control of everything led to it's downfall.)

Any future SFC game would benefit greatly from being "open source" from the start.  Given the complexities of Star Fleet Battles, I think Taldren did the best anyone could have hoped for.


Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2004, 10:57:53 am »
Instead of "final thought" it should have been titled....final running rant... ???

What is the whole purpose for the thread?

To gloat?

I mean...WTF?

<edit>

I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

You will simply continue with the "yeah but" crap to anything anyone says...

So what you are really trying to say is.....TALDREN SUCKS AND THEY DESERVED TO GO OUT OF BUSSINESS....

Ok kid...we got it...you made your point....now frickin drop it...

Or be booted for the trollish attitude twords people who disagree with you...

The only thing that really amazes me....the people who have Taldren issues generally gave up on them years ago...and only now return to piss on the grave....

Well...IF YOU GAVE UP ON TALDREN YEARS AGO.....WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE TO RETURN NOW?....if not to troll? >:(





Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2004, 11:01:27 am »

> I completely disagree with you.

Why? what did I say that was not accurate?

> I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
> I love them all.

You are entitled to, didnt say otherwise.

> I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
> That is the sign of a good product.

One could say a 'good' product is one that works as advertised. Not one that has a bonus feature.

> You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.

On the contrary, didnt I say I was very happy with bioware products? I am pleased when a product works. SFC never fully got fixed/working. Especially when it was broken out of the box after shelling out $50.

> Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.

Full of teen angst are we? *chuckle*






Harlequin,

Not even Windows comes "out of th box" perfect.
Taldren provided patches, and I was happy to get them.


You don't buy video games too often do you?


AgentSloan

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2004, 11:09:40 am »
Instead of "final thought" it should have been titled....final running rant... ???

What is the whole purpose for the thread?

To gloat?

I mean...WTF?

<edit>

I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

You will simply continue with the "yeah but" crap to anything anyone says...

So what you are really trying to say is.....TALDREN SUCKS AND THEY DESERVED TO GO OUT OF BUSSINESS....

Ok kid...we got it...you made your point....now frickin drop it...

Or be booted for the trollish attitude twords people who disagree with you...

The only thing that really amazes me....the people who have Taldren issues generally gave up on them years ago...and only now return to piss on the grave....

Well...IF YOU GAVE UP ON TALDREN YEARS AGO.....WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE TO RETURN NOW?....if not to troll? >:(






I didn't take the post as nearly so agressive - it read to me like he was simply saying that Taldren lost customers to bugs over the years. Not that mean a thing to say.  (Me I'm still angry about the whole SFC3 thing, but I stuck with them anyway, and now here - there's something "special" about old SFB players on SFC that makes the community what it is to me  - quite different from other types ogames)

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2004, 11:25:08 am »
Hello Bonk, :)

There are,

(i). single-player "people",
(ii). multi-player "people",

If you are a on-line multi-player person, the game is more apt to be pushed to its limits.
At the games limits, unforseen things can happen, and the game may crash.

That is what the patches are for.


Me-self, I'm a 3d starship kitbasher,  :ufo:
I stay in single-player,
I fly starships in a very basic "no frills" style....

"...I see 'em, I charge in guns-a-blazing,..."
 :2gun:

FYI, to let you know my point-of-view.


Take care :)
AgentSloan.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 11:29:53 am by AgentSloan »

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2004, 12:53:30 pm »
> Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

While 'worship' is too stong a word IMO, I certainly give them A+ for effort. D+, at best, for execution.

While its not impossible to translate a game PnP game to the PC its very difficult. Some compromises have to be made. I previouslly stated my admiration for Bioware. BUT they had to make some changes to the D&D rules as well. While it wasnt a perfect translaton to 3e D&D it was about as best as you can get in a PC translation. So I dont hold that against taldren for the changes vs the PnP version.

My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced.

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2004, 12:55:47 pm »
> I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....

congrats to bring the first post I consider 'flame bait' to a very civil discussion/thread

And for the record quantum physics is a bit of a hobby of mine...

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2004, 01:02:02 pm »
Actually wasn't the D2 added after about 6 months after release?  After months of "We will only release when it's ready", but then dumped it out there just before heading off to E3 to unveil Orion Pirates, and it was in a horrid state?

I stand corrected, good point.

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2004, 01:06:01 pm »
> Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game.  There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer.  The task was monumental from a programming perspective.  I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.

While 'worship' is too stong a word IMO, I certainly give them A+ for effort. D+, at best, for execution.

While its not impossible to translate a game PnP game to the PC its very difficult. Some compromises have to be made. I previouslly stated my admiration for Bioware. BUT they had to make some changes to the D&D rules as well. While it wasnt a perfect translaton to 3e D&D it was about as best as you can get in a PC translation. So I dont hold that against taldren for the changes vs the PnP version.

My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced.


Taldren dropped "us like yesterdays newspaper",...?

Who is "us",....?
and,
What do you mean "dropped",...?


AgentSloan

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2004, 01:20:21 pm »
So answer the question genious......

What is the purpose of the whole thread?...it's a pretty simple question...

I consider your very first post trollish and flameworthy...

<edit>

never mind...I got my answer...

Quote
My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced

So it's personal...you felt screwed somehow...

Customer support...

Now that...is something I bet the majority here would argue....I myself...being a tester will surely argue...One reason taldren spent so much time fixing stuff is due to the rabid fan base the dedication of the Devs....And the donation of hundreds of hours of time testing stuff....

When Taldren HAD to move on to revenue generating projects....they STLL gave customer support by letting Khoromag continue fixes...

Dave himself did the final fixes for OP....

So...no...you'll never convince me that Taldren wasnt a success because it didnt care for it's fan base....Taldren went under for a myriad of financial reasons...some self inflicted...some due to decisions of outside entities...

But to say Taldren didnt support us well beyond what other companies track records are...is a sick joke...

Even in going under...Taldren gave its last bit of "customer support"..by helping get the forum DB ported over here.....

Thus your abiltiy to come and troll. :-\
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 01:37:10 pm by KBF-Crim »

Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2004, 01:33:48 pm »
I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.  Heck, how long did the EAW D2 work better than OP's?  It's not totally fair to transfer this over to SFC3 since there were other obstacles in their path for releasing patches as often as they would have liked, but they did release patches and fixes for OP after the release of SFC3.  The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).  When you consider the number of folks who were around making the fixes though, I would guess it's not that bad.  Heck Dave Ferrell kept plugging away at it until the end, and definitely deserves more than a mild "thank you" (and I say that as someone who was banned by him ;) )

I think Taldren was manned by well intentioned folks who probably bit off a bit more than they could handle and were probably mismanaged a bit.  There is certainly blame for the various problems with the games, but I certainly do not believe that it was all "The Publisher" every time.  I mean they went through 3 publishers, all of whom had the same problems with missed deadlines and such.   I don't think that Taldren was incapable of getting the job done, but somewhere along the line things were mismanaged to a degree or someone agreed to far, far less time than the project needed, imo.  I do believe that they had good intentions (at least at first, as I do kind of wonder about whether SFC3 was a cash grab, as it seemed to lack content, imo) and are generally good people who were trying to do something different by being much more responsive to fans than some companies.

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2004, 01:43:54 pm »
Lets face it, they didnt get any help with Acti - Lack of - Vision being the publisher.  STCD and STGD has had numerous run in's with them regarding the poor stance they have in trek gaming.  Back in the VERY old days of trek gaming (something not a lot of people can remember) you had the classics like Starfleet Academy, Klingon Academy, the original SFC.  All this was due to some friendly compeition between the major publishers...Simon & Schuster, Activision, Spectrum Holobyte (MicroProse) and Interplay.

Once Activision got all the licenses the following happened...

Armada 2, Elite Force 2, Starfleet Command 3, ConQuest Online.

Now i personally think Armada 2 is a good game, its lacking in some aspects, but i still personally like it.  Elite Force 2?  Complete and total disaster...MP only had one map and there was issues with games and the amount of people playing them when in GameSpy Arcade.  ConQuest Online was another disaster, it was Pay For Play (yes, there was a PfP trek game) which was basically chess with Star Trek pieces, there was a lot of strategy, but guess what?  Activision pulled the plug on the whole lot 9 months after it was released.

Then of course we have SFC 3...mixed results.

You take out the competition between the punlishers and the good games die.  You will still get buggy games, that much is certain.  SFC 3 is based on the OP engine and that game has taken soooooo long to patch up, SFC was bound to have issues.  It doesnt help with Activision being the publisher.  A publisher who probably knew that they would be suing viacom by that time.  The one bain is the slow release on patches which has happened all the way through the SFC series.  

As trek gaming goes on though Paramount themsevles are taking a greater interest in what is happening right here, right now.  They are continuing to visit the STGD and STGU central forums and they are posting away to let people know that they do still care.  STGD itself will be holding an interview with Harry Lang of paramount in the very near future.  There is also something happening in the background which may see the return, at least partially, of the old Trek gaming official message boards and site, a lot of new gamers are buying the game and going to the official gaming section at www.startrek.com and seeing nothing, STGD has asked for the return of the official gaming boards for the support and interest of the new Star Trek gaming players...plus...its a good place to spam... *cough* advertise :)
Good on you Victor1st this what I am talking about.It is the Publishers not the developers and Taldren is a developer and never carried the license from Paramount.If this was Taldrens board you would have a lot of their Moderators correcting on this as well as Ann her self.There where two other rules over at Taldrens boards don't bad mouth Taldren and the games.I will never be able to get my Starfleet Academy and New World  fixed.I have on my address bar a utility called iespell Internet Explorer Spell checker ,Pestalence put it on two forums in Taldrens boards and I DL it and I have always used it since.I will have to get over to STGD more often.

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2004, 02:13:39 pm »
  Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2004, 02:18:08 pm »
> I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.

Keep in mind after the SFC2 mess I stopped buying the series, never bought op or sfc3 so I can not comment on those products. I can only speak of the expereinces until I decided I cut my losses. I think my comments about SFC1 and 2 in of themsevles are accurate IMO.

> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).

Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

> I think Taldren was manned by well intentioned folks who probably bit off a bit more than they could handle and were probably mismanaged a bit.  There is certainly blame for the various problems with the games, but I certainly do not believe that it was all "The Publisher" every time.  I mean they went through 3 publishers, all of whom had the same problems with missed deadlines and such. 

Well said. I called them incompitant right before I left the sfc community. While harsh I think its a accurate assesment. You can only blame so much on a publisher. At some point they have to take blame.

In a nut shell, as we both said, they tried a bigger project then they were able to handle. And we now see the final result of their mismanagment and inability. Certainly sad, but not surprising.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2004, 02:22:17 pm »
> So answer the question genious......

I dont engage flame bait or trolls.

When you learn how to get your point across w/o the need for insults or being combative then perhaps we can have a discussion. not a flame war as you so badly seem to want.

Have a nice day.

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2004, 02:25:57 pm »
Hello KBF-Crim, :)

Ole AgentSloan here,....


<snip>


Now that...is something I bet the majority here would argue....I myself...being a tester will surely argue...One reason taldren spent so much time fixing stuff is due to the rabid fan base the dedication of the Devs....And the donation of hundreds of hours of time testing stuff....

When Taldren HAD to move on to revenue generating projects....they STLL gave customer support by letting Khoromag continue fixes...

Dave himself did the final fixes for OP....

<snip>


I completely agree with you.
Taldren gave "above and beyond" patches for the games,
and David Ferrell busted his ass to do the patches for SFC: OP, when he was even leaving the Company,....

and ole AgentSloan, does not give "Taldren and David Ferrell" praise lightly,

Let us give credit, where credit is honourably due,.... they did good by us, the customers and the SFC community :)

Well done Taldren, and David Ferrell :)
 :thumbsup: :dance: :thumbsup:


Take care, :)
AgentSloan

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2004, 02:27:28 pm »
> So answer the question genious......

I dont engage flame bait or trolls.

When you learn how to get your point across w/o the need for insults or being combative then perhaps we can have a discussion. not a flame war as you so badly seem to want.

Have a nice day.


Harlequin,...?

Please tell me ".... what is the beef,...?"


AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2004, 02:32:27 pm »
Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

Your information seems a wee bit skewed.

WON.Net pulling out In the last minute is why the D2 was not working at release,NOT because it did not work.

Should Taldren have told us before hand?????? You betcha,if they did would we have ever seen a working D2???? I doubt it.
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Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2004, 02:33:10 pm »
> I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper".   They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released.  In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.

Keep in mind after the SFC2 mess I stopped buying the series, never bought op or sfc3 so I can not comment on those products. I can only speak of the expereinces until I decided I cut my losses. I think my comments about SFC1 and 2 in of themsevles are accurate IMO.

> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).

Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

....


Harlequin,

I bought SFC,
then I bought SFC II: EAW....

SFC II: EAW was, in my opinion a big jump in quality,
I really got into it due to the second game...

I assume your beef is with the on-line "Multi-Player" mode,
Is this the case?
If so what specifically did you not like then?



AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2004, 03:05:05 pm »
Are you absolutely positive that the D2 was working before WON pulled out?  I know that was the excuse given, but is that actually the case?  Was it ready for prime time when WON was still on board?

Even at that, there were countless claims that never came true.  Play with thousands of your friends online became hundreds, which became maybe 60 if your lucky, and that didn't change from the time SFC2 came out to the time SFC3 came out.  If WON was the problem, shouldn't they have found a solution in that time, especially given the claims that SFC3 was "built from the ground up" (which we later found it to be based on the OP engine)?   I do believe that they are nice guys, and I've had contact with them from time to time, but I think in a lot of cases they were grabbing at straws to cover their behinds.  I wasn't a tester when SFC2 was in development, so I don't know it's state pre-release but I beleive I heard that it wasn't that great.  I believe I had heard at one point that one of the reasons WON dropped support was because it just wasn't working properly and they were planning on getting out of games in general so they decided to drop support for it.  This would also tend to fall in line with some of the complaints of missed deadlines and lack of meaningful progress that some publishers have stated.

That said, they did do a tremendous thing by allowing community members to help with the game, letting Khoromag get thier hands on it was a big boon for the community, and probably Taldren as well ,since they fixed things for them and 3 was based on OP which had ported fixes from Khoromag.  It's unfortunate that they didn't know who they didn't take as much care with who they handed the OP code over too, or else we could be in even better places than we are now.  Still, the effort was made to try and get the job done even if it took a long time, and someone else had to help out to get it finished.  For that they do deserve credit.

I'd still like to know just how well did the D2 REALLY work, prior to WON dropping out though. 

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2004, 03:12:14 pm »
Well crimmy most likely could clear that up.
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Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2004, 03:40:14 pm »
> Your information seems a wee bit skewed.

> WON.Net pulling out In the last minute is why the D2 was not working at release,NOT because it did not work.

From what I recall, and I may be wrong, major aspects of D2 (code wise)  didnt even ship on the scf2 cd. It was added many months later in a patch. So even if, IMO, won.net didnt pull out I have my doubts it would have worked.

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2004, 03:44:37 pm »
> I assume your beef is with the on-line "Multi-Player" mode,
> Is this the case?
> If so what specifically did you not like then?

Its several issues which I think I already addessed, but would take more time to repeat here then I currntly have as I am at work. But if you would like to discuss this at lenght then feel free to join me on my irc server and i'll be happy to address your issues/questions about my posts.

irc-shadowland.ath.cx ports 6667-6669 or java client http://irc-shadowland.ath.cx:8000

pls note, You may have to register a nick before you can join a channel. Set up for security reasons.

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2004, 03:48:05 pm »
NDA VIOLATION
Heh....seriously....I was a middle circle member....the inner circle was working on stuff long before we got into the testing program...

But...I CAN tell you this....

My Dv disk is a separate disk....recieved AFTER getting the Beta....it was my understanding that the DV required a total rewrite...

You'll have to address the first one's for the answer you seek..

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2004, 03:52:33 pm »

From what I recall, and I may be wrong, major aspects of D2 (code wise)  didnt even ship on the scf2 cd. It was added many months later in a patch. So even if, IMO, won.net didnt pull out I have my doubts it would have worked.


You recall correctly...but you dont recall the why.....

SFC2 shipped without a working DV because it was still being REWRITTEN... :banghead:

Thanks for playing... :skeptic:

Offline Vysander

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2004, 04:08:53 pm »
Adding few details as I really don't want to be flamed by the die hards here.. but I do fully agree with Har. 

I also own all of the SFC games in hope that they would finally come out with a working product, but each one has crashed more than the last. 

My enjoyment lasted about a week after probably the 2 dozenth crash of SFC3 and with no 'real' patch in sight and the beta patch only partially fixing things (and I was still crashing at about the same rate), I just tossed in the towel and gave up on Taldren.

There's good games... and bad games.. this is a bad game.  Don't compare it with other bad games to say 'it could have been worse'.  Compare it with good games saying 'it could have been like this'

I better run before I get flamed for this being my first post here :)
Vysander

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2004, 04:22:26 pm »
Adding few details as I really don't want to be flamed by the die hards here.. but I do fully agree with Har. 

I also own all of the SFC games in hope that they would finally come out with a working product, but each one has crashed more than the last. 

My enjoyment lasted about a week after probably the 2 dozenth crash of SFC3 and with no 'real' patch in sight and the beta patch only partially fixing things (and I was still crashing at about the same rate), I just tossed in the towel and gave up on Taldren.

<snip>



Crashed?
Are you refering to on-line "Multi-Player" mode?
If so, under what circustances?


AgentSloan

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2004, 04:24:30 pm »
Flame ?..no...

I wouldnt flame you just because you gave up on Taldren a while ago...and just now found these forums...and this exact thread to post in, right at this time.......nah...


Offline FPF-AJTK

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2004, 07:08:48 pm »
Lol Age, Harlequin is FAR from a n00b, rofl.

Heyas Harl! Im actually GLAD to see you, rofl! Been a long time.

I seem to remember that your problems with SFC were that you wanted more RPG elements and less emphasis on SFB/Starship combat. Alongside the patching/crashing issues that you have spoken of.

Much as it pains me, the games were and still are (though to a FAR, FAR lesser degree) buggy. And it did take a long time to get things patched.

But they DID patch them, even YEARS Later they are STILL doing it. David Ferrell is STILL working on things, and he does not even WORK for Taldren anymore. (And has not since long before they went belly up)

And it was a collaborative effort between Taldren and their fans/I.E. the SFC community to get these boards set up PRIOR to Taldrens forums being taken down...

They have gone to alot of trouble to keep the community together, when they most certainly are not going to make anymore games nor any more cash off the old games.

Taldren was a great company, their dreams just exceeded their reach.

Someone with the resources and clout of Blizzard could have done SFC properly (in NO WAY a jab at taldren, please read on) as Blizzard could have worked on the games and released them WHEN they were ready. All I am saying is that Blizzard would not have had to rely on Interpuke or Craptivision and therefore would not have had deadlines and guarranteed release date issues, etc.

Regardless Harl, Im glad you found these boards, I miss your rhetoric! As with much that we dont agree with/like, there frequently is at least part of it we DO agree with.

P.S. Im way freaking ahead of you in our little SETI race now!  :rofl:
RE-VER-SE: To move backwards, retrograde; movement that is not forward in nature.

[img]http://pages.sbcglobal.net/wanderer/_uimages/AJTK.jpg

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2004, 07:38:34 pm »
Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...

1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...

2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...

3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...

4) OS problems of all sorts...

In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...

Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...

Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...

SFC 2 might be comparable to the NWN launch...maybe...but I haven't seen that many releases as bad as the original release of NWN...luckily Bioware worked fast and furious...without sleep...for many a day...

And Atari was at least smart enough (after being complete idiots with the copyprotection schemes...which they STILL are stupid about...and I still hold they only hurt legit customers) and scared enough of the power Bioware wielded, to at least acquiesce to Bioware's demands in some areas.  (on the otherhand, another company that made a D&D game with Atari, Trioka wasn't as fortunate, and not only had the Copy protection problems, but also had Atari cut whole chunks out of the game code (as if it wouldn't cause problems) as well as had demands from hasbro to cut other portions of the game and code out... (as if Atari and Hasbro thought cutting portions of the coding out wouldn't cause any problems, talk about stupid execs).

Anyways...just to refresh your memory on the release of NWN...
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


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Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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SSCF-Rolling

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2004, 07:45:34 pm »
ACK!!!!!

I turned my back.

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2004, 07:46:39 pm »
Now more on a comment on Taldren in particular...I ignored the warning you gave...just so you know...

I AM a bioware fan just so you know as well...

Also a Mad Doc fan (who HAVE HAD many more problems in all the areas you list, but I'm still a fan).

A fan of all developers in that genre of groups...

However, I've always found Taldren's support to be exceptional.

I think SFC2 didn't do as well only in part to reports of it's buggy release...I think a major reason otherwise was that it just seemed a rehash of SFC1 at first play, just with better graphics (it wasn't, but to a casual player...it could very well seem that way).

The big thing that I think sunk SFC 3, was that it was pared down...it had some fun elements, but people like the style of SFC 1/2 and SFC 3 did away with a lot of it.  

They say if something works, don't change it...but they did on SFC 3...and I think that turned a lot of people off...

I loved all the SFC games however, but I must nicely disagree on why you think Taldren had problems.

I think they had problems because they put all their eggs in a bucket, and gambled...as many independent developers do...and unfortunately, this time the bucket bottom was weak and the eggs fell through.

It's a similar situation if bioware suddenly lost all contracts and couldn't sell Jade Empire or Dragon Age...and no one else would distribute it...they are enough in the hole on those...that they'd be in deep trouble...not that it will happen, just comparing for an example.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline LongTooth

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2004, 07:58:12 pm »
Well I dont feel the need to point the finger of blame in any direction
Taldren gave me 3 and a half good years worth of gaming with Sfc 1,2 and op (I brought sfc3 too but did not like it very much) at a cost of £110 quid
All money well spent  yeah sure the game had bugs (cant think of any game or program for the PC the does not have any)
Some times my computer crashes but I never thought I would been better off not buying it
Taldren tried (more than most game companies would of) for that they will all ways have my respect

Sfc is still by far the best game I have played on the computer
« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 08:02:40 pm by LongTooth »

Offline Hyperion

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2004, 10:57:59 pm »
Well i only found out the sad news just today about the demise of Taldren.

Perhaps some of you will recall that I was somwwhat active on the original boards, and i have to admit i more than once vented my spleen on Erik Bethke about customer service and loyalty. I will not rehash those times seems its like pouring gas on the fire. What i would like to mention is the very first post on this thread, and how it desribed me directly. I never much cared about the SFB vs. SFC debate (even though ive been an SFB player for 20+ years) . I know now that Taldrens hand was forced regards to the early release of SFC2, though i do think it was somewhat duplicitous of both the Publisher and the Designer to let the gamers know only after it hit the shelves.



Nevertheless i shall miss Erik and the Gang. To thier credit they faced up to the ire of the fans and customers and did so professionally at all times. I personally hope they will return to go on with SFC but my heart says that that period in thier lives has come to end permanantly. And i always will smile when i saw some of the most amazing (and outrageous ;D ;D) threads that i was lucky enough to be a part of that community even in a small way.

That also being said , i dont play to much SFC anymore, but even now i still have the vision of a an elegant Federation Comman Cruiser gliding through space perapring for and engagement. And i pull out my copy of SFC2 and load her up. Im looking forward to being back here

Hyp
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Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2004, 11:16:59 pm »
Well i only found out the sad news just today about the demise of Taldren.

Perhaps some of you will recall that I was somwwhat active on the original boards, and i have to admit i more than once vented my spleen on Erik Bethke about customer service and loyalty. I will not rehash those times seems its like pouring gas on the fire. What i would like to mention is the very first post on this thread, and how it desribed me directly. I never much cared about the SFB vs. SFC debate (even though ive been an SFB player for 20+ years) . I know now that Taldrens hand was forced regards to the early release of SFC2, though i do think it was somewhat duplicitous of both the Publisher and the Designer to let the gamers know only after it hit the shelves.



Nevertheless i shall miss Erik and the Gang. To thier credit they faced up to the ire of the fans and customers and did so professionally at all times. I personally hope they will return to go on with SFC but my heart says that that period in thier lives has come to end permanantly. And i always will smile when i saw some of the most amazing (and outrageous ;D ;D) threads that i was lucky enough to be a part of that community even in a small way.

That also being said , i dont play to much SFC anymore, but even now i still have the vision of a an elegant Federation Comman Cruiser gliding through space perapring for and engagement. And i pull out my copy of SFC2 and load her up. Im looking forward to being back here

Hyp

Well said, Hyperion :)

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2004, 01:23:18 am »
 Poor product support? And dropped us? What the heck are you talking about?
 I mean really! have you been living in the jungle with wolves or some thing?

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2004, 09:39:40 am »
> Should Taldren have told us before hand?????? You betcha,if they did would we have ever seen a working D2???? I doubt it.

We'll never know will we? Since they chose to go the deceptive route rather then being honest with their paying customers..

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2004, 11:41:58 am »
> Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...

If your refering to me, I was keeping tabs on nwn almost 2 yrs before it came out.

> 1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...

thats a nick picking issue that what, a handful of people ad and was addressed in the first or second patch.

> 2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...

ati driver issue, blame ati

> 3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...

again a small group of people, and was addressed in short time via a patch to turn off securerom

> 4) OS problems of all sorts...

I dont recall any 'os problems' details please?

> In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...

Thats quite a exeragation. While there were bugs, as expected the game was PLAYABLE from start to finish out of the box. Server was a bit unstable but by the first or second patch got much better. And I might add by the time the 6 month period of its release rolled around 3 or 4 major patches were released.

> Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...

So thats  get-out-of-jail card for taldren? I dont think thats any reason to not hold them accountable and shift all the blame to someone else. I find it humorous reading some of these posts that taldren can do no wrong and the entire world was against them apparently... Not stating your posts like that but a general observation.

> Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...

One could say the same about your comments. If you want to nit pick then yes you'll find issues in every pc game launch, nwn or otherwise. That wasnt my issue as thats expected. The point you made about nwn were, as a whole very minor. It shipped with EVERY major componet promised and worked out of the box. Neither can be said about the sfc series.

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2004, 12:40:34 pm »
No one said that Taldren could do no wrong...

What was said is that they more than made up for mistakes by continueing to fix stuff..WELL BEYOND what other game companies did...and continue to do...



This is the readme from OP...

Count the fixes....note the patch numbers....

They are not sequential....that means between MANY of the "released' patches....there were other versions that we TESTED and werent ready for release...

02 Patch fixes in 2.5.5.2
--------------
1) Drone dates in online and single player Meta now available per SFB dates (not Era) Medium in 167 and Fast in 180.
2) Fighter Fusions do not obey shot limits - fixed.
3) AI having ships before they are released into the shipyard - fixed.
4) PF's and fighters will not fire heavy weapons on Fighter groups, just Point Defense - fixed.
5) In Hostile Skirmish mission if a captured freighter is subsequently destroyed, the mission will end improperly - fixed.

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.5.0
--------------
1) Retaining lock on cloaking ships wrong - fixed.
2) Plasma D hitting ESGs
3) Fighters unable to fire heavies after 1/4 turn - fixed.

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.4.12 (Thats Two.Five.Four.Twelve)
--------------
1) Firing a PPD at a cloaked ship causes a crash - fixed.
2) Firing a PPD at a drone will cause a crash - fixed.
3) A ship that starts with no shields and tries to use a T-bomb will cause a crash - fixed.
4) The speed of the cloaking ship is not being factored in when when trying to retaining a lock-on - fixed.
5) The type III hydran fighters have the wrong start date - fixed.
6) While under cloak, Weapons damage is reduced according to the following chart:
   33.3% chance weapon does normal damage.
   33.3% chance weapon does 1/2 damage.
   33.3% chance weapon does 1/4 damage.

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.4.10 (Thats Two.Five.Four.Ten)
--------------

1) A drone being pursued by a plasma D won't be stopped by tractor - fixed.
2) Game forgets difficulty - fixed.
3) AI Tbombs at range 6-7 - fixed.
4) D2: unused Suicide Shuttle does not return mine - fixed.
5) Phaser-Bs don't do triple damage to hull - fixed.
6) Phaser G2 not firing all shots - fixed.
7) AI tries to board fighters - fixed
8) LWX arc broken - fixed.
9) AI Pirates never use engine doubling - fixed.
10) Klingon AMD status is reversed in UI - fixed.
11) Saved Preset ship speed not reported to other players - fixed.
12) ESG range 0, hellbore fired at range 1- fixed via MagnumMan.
13) Pseudo torp missing - fixed both Plasma X and E now have Pseudo Torps.
14) AI will not consider PLaX or PLaE as valid for WW - fixed.
15) D2 bug: unable to view pirate's DV - fixed.
16) D2 bug: Pirate map interactions problem - fixed.
17) Neutral Coop Bug - fixed.
18) Cartels not getting home sector missions - fixed.
19) Fighters come to a complete stop in space - fixed.
20) Mandatory only on enemy missions can be "dragged" with the player - fixed.
21) PPD can be fired out of arc - fixed.
22) Klingon heavy disruptor panel does not work if multiple are selected - fixed.
23) PFs only take one turn to rearm/repair regardless of damage - fixed.
24) No advanced era for single player campaigns - fixed.
25) AI never recalls fighters - fixed.
26) Missiles fired by ships that cloak are not removed - fixed.
27) During a campaign, you are not able to replenish MIRV missiles - fixed.
28) A newly purchased ship with MIRV racks will not have any MIRV missiles in the it's 1st mission - fixed.
29) Monster mission does not return correct results - fixed.
30) Able to transport to and from a cloaked ship - fixed.
31) Various ships with fighters have no deck crew - fixed.
32) Many ships have ??? for their name - fixed via Firesoul.
33) AI ships will send capture marines even when they have none left - fixed.

Cloak changes:
1) Decreased flash time by about 1/4.
2) Seeking weapons now are removed if firing ship looses lock.
3) Being tractored will no longer prevent cloak from being brought on-line.
4) If a ship being tractored cloaks, the ship holding the cloaker will maintain lock.
5) Weapons damage is reduced according to the following chart:
   66.7% chance weapon does normal damage.
   33.3% chance weapon does 1/2 damage.

Change to Missile 'Type' display in tactical:
This now shows the actual type of missile in the rack as a two digit code
where the first character shows the warhead and the second the speed examples:
Type I Fast = 1F, Type IV M = 4M, MIRV Slow = MS

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.3.8 by the KhoroMag patching team: James King and Dutch Blomenkamp and Taldren
--------------
1)Fast Repair Bug fixed; all repairable hardpoint slots must be at 50% health to operate.
2)Fixed repair time of multiple slot hardpoints to match the number of weapons in them.
3)Fighter control icons will no longer disappear unexpectedly.
4)Direct-fire fighter weapons are now ready to fire first shot after 8 impulses, and can fire one shot per turn after that (except disruptors which are 2 shots per turn).
5)Heavy PF weapons are now ready to fire after 8 impulses, and follow regular charging rules after that.
6)Fighter minimum speed set to 20.
7)Shield reinforcement is no longer applied to downed shields when taking damage. 
8)Dynaverse 2 patrol missions no longer award a win to players who disengage.
9)Spare parts standard and maximum values in Dynaverse 2 space dock fixed.
10)Saved game difficulty is now enforced when reading in a single-player campaign. 
11)Unfinished repairs are now completed automatically at the end of a mission.
12)Some battles (AI) were happening where a empire would attack a cartel and vice versa - fixed.
13)Unused shuttles are now converted back to admin shuttles at the end of a mission, including recovery of resources used to create them.
14)Damage to the damage control system no longer affects repair times, since damage control itself is an unrepairable system.
15)Multiplayer (GameSpy/Dyna) networking tuned; effects of lag may be reduced.
16)Hellbore charging cost reduced to 2.5/turn, holding cost is also 2.5.
17)Volley cycle (mizia) interval changed from 1/20 turn to 1/32 turn [true impulse].
18)Overlapping PPD shots no longer cause too many volley cycles (mizia).
19)Plasma I defensive firing made smarter (like Plasma D in last patch).
20)Proximity photon to-hit table change: 83%/67%/33%.
21)Phaser-G hardpoint charging status indicator fixed.
22)Phaser-G multiple-slot hardpoints can now fire all shots.
23)Phaser-G point defense fixed to count shots correctly.
24)Phaser-G now honors shift-Z "fire all" command.
25)Phaser-G can now be fired if there is just 0.25 energy in the capacitor (previously 1.00 was required but it only used 0.25).
26)Phaser capacitor no longer loses charge when a phaser slot is destroyed.
27)Phaser slots that are destroyed now recycle their ready state.
28)Phaser point defense no longer shoots as Plasma D.
29)Plasma D, Plasma I, phaser point defense, and ADD systems will no longer waste shots on dead things that just haven't disappeared yet.
30)Plasma D and Plasma I will no longer waste multiple shots at the same target.
31)Plasma D reload time increased from 1 turn to 1.33 turns.
32)User-made plasma race ships with ADD hardpoints now fire ADD rounds instead of Plasma D shots from the ADD hardpoint.
33)Plasma D and ADD hardpoints now correctly show offline state in display.
34)Shotgun plasma capacity now based on current setting of weapon, not the hardpoint type.
35)Shotgun plasma no longer wastes unnecessary shots on fighter groups.
36)Shotgun plasma no longer fires more than one plasma at a regular ship.
37)If ADD shot at a shuttle, it would only shoot once then completely disable itself vs. the shuttle.
38)ADD damage versus shuttles and fighters was incorrect; [0..5] fixed to [1..6]
39)ADD12 reload time is now 2 turns instead of 1.
40)HET attempt during EM lowers success rate by 16%.
41)EM and WW launch now void any active ESG field.
42)ESG now delivers correct damage to kill fighters (previously some ESG energy was wasted).
43)Single fighter group no longer drops multiple ESG rings unless energy expenditure warrants it.
44)Mine detonation on ESG ring when user changed radius UI control fixed.
45)Hydran UI for ESG panel (multiplayer only) fixed (buttons were messed up).
46)ESG radius indicator is no longer drawn if the ESG cannot fire (destroyed hardpoint).
47)ESG capacitor and hardpoint now lose charge/ready state when destroyed.
48)ESG field that is 'warming up' will no longer cause drones to miss a Lyran target.
49)Cloak can no longer be engaged while being tractored.
50)Tractor lock on a cloaked ship negates the range doubling effect.
51)Switching from hold to repel now drops tractor hold.
52)Switching from hold to repel, or repel to hold now resets tractor capacitor.
53)When the tractor system is destroyed it will no longer charge holding cost because the capacitor is emptied automatically..
54)Speed 11 changed from 5 seconds/turn to 10 seconds/turn.
55)Assault shuttles now require 4 marines to create, and subtract none on impact.
56)Removed debug code that wrote to "EWdump.txt" on every single phaser fire.
57)Plasma holding costs reduced as follows (first number is normal, second is eneveloping) R(4/5), S(2/4), G (1/2.5).
58)Shield regeneration due to labs, lowered slightly.
59)BPV adjusted upward for Missile G ships.
60)Escort ships received a BPV increase.
61)Docking "weak" fighters will no longer transform them into stronger variety (i.e. Hornet.I magically becoming Wasp.III)
62)Launching fighters now voids WW.
63)Disengaging in Dynaverse assault missions (Planety, starbase, etc.) gives leaving player a defeat.
64)ESG vs Hellbore interaction re-added.
65)Mauler can be destroyed - fixed (note effectiveness can still be degraded by destroying batteries)
66)Unable to removed last engine drain effect from Plasma Snare hit - fixed.
67)Battlefest, and other fest's with the exception of Tourneyfest ignore Era setting - fixed.
68)(Scripting) Location Who flag always returns Federation - fixed.
69)All races may now can have either AMD or Plasma D.
70)TR beam always does 20 points - fixed. (also broke out into TRBL and TRBH).
71)Increased the number of ships per class from 64 to 128.
72)Some races are able to adjust the game speed in Dyna - fixed.
73)Patrol mission not returning proper results - fixed (thanks to NuclearWessels and FireSoul).


Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2004, 12:41:16 pm »
--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.2.5 by the KhoroMag patching team: James King and Dutch Blomenkamp
--------------
1)  Damage allocation fixed.
2)  Added option to allow game host to specify hidden race and/or BPV in multiplayer ship select screen.
3)  Weapon hardpoint user interface enhanced to show individual slot status.
4)  Destroyed hardpoint slots now lose their charge and cannot hold a charge.
5)  Mines now detonate if your actual speed is fast enough to trigger them.
6)  Mines now arm instantly if the ship that dropped them is destroyed.
7)  AMD now correctly does 1d6 damage against weapon-type shuttles (SS, SP, WW, GAS).
8)  AMD12 repair cost lowered to 4 (SFB value).
9)  EM in a multiplayer game now properly updates attack shift on all computers.
10) EM voice no longer plays if user cancels EM countdown.
11) ECM now affects seeking weapons properly.
12) Fighters can no longer dock with their mothership if they are being held in a tractor lock.
13) Fighters no longer receive disruptor feedback at Range 0.
14) Fighter fusion corrected - can no longer fire at Range 3 (2.99 max).
15) Fighter photon corrected - can no longer fire at Range 5 (4.99 max).
16) Fighters now carry the correct number of missiles based on the ftrlist.txt file.
17) Suicide shuttle launch now properly voids a wild weasel.
18) Double-clicking to make multiple shuttles of the same type simultaneously is prohibited.
19) Shuttle conversions no longer remain on-screen when the 'd' key is used to slide panel away.
20) WW launch now properly updates the attack shift on all computers.
21) WW corrected to generate 6 ECM (was 12).
22) WW speed has been reduced to 6 (was 12).
23) Defensive shift now shows proper value when a WW is valid.
24) Defensive tractor hotkey now works properly when tractor system is damaged.
25) Ship explosions corrected: Damage < 10 is Range 0, otherwise explosion is Range 1.
26) Film filename longer than 70 characters no longer causes a crash in the film room.
27) Ships with 32 or 64 marines no longer mysteriously lose a marine 7 seconds into the simulation.
28) Each PPD pulse is now a separate volley.
29) PPD stops firing if target moves out of firing range.
30) Damage for each PPD pulse is now calculated when the pulse hits, not when the user fired it.
31) PPD damage versus fighter groups has been fixed.
32) Missile racks no longer lose a missile at startup.
33) Space dock now works correctly with missile racks having more than one standard reload (like DroG-2).
34) Missiles cannot slip past an active Radius 0 ESG at high speeds any more.
35) ESG now triggers active mines to explode.  ESG absorbs what it can, remainder hits ship.
36) ESG no longer does more damage than its maximum when firing up and targets are in the radius.
37) ESG no longer hits ships on your team that were captured from other teams.
38) ESG power request corrected for multiple ESG hardpoints.
39) ESG ring radius corrected to be consistent with other direct-fire weapons.
40) ESG ring is now drawn at the exact outer edge of the damage radius.
41) ESG ring is now drawn at the correct size on all computers in multiplayer and film playbacks.
42) ESG field now drops if the hardpoint is destroyed.
43) ESG now hits enemy Wild Weasels and Probes in the ring.
44) Shield reinforcement effect on enveloping plasma and hellbore feedback corrected.
45) Phaser damage against incoming plasma has been corrected.
46) Plasma D auto-firing mechanism will no longer fire more than one Plasma D at a time at an incoming        target.
47) Plasma D launcher firing rate increased.
48) Normal hellbores no longer do any feedback damage (no myopic zone in SFB).
49) Overloaded hellbore feedback damage now only occurs if the weapon hits its target.
50) Films from previous versions cannot be played with 2.5.2.0.
51) Various HET Breakdown fixes:
    -Probes can no longer fire during a breakdown.
    -T-bombs can no longer be placed during a breakdown.
    -Hit and runs no longer function during a breakdown.
    -Defensive tractors no longer function during a breakdown.
    -Point defense is now disabled during a breakdown.
    -AMD and Plasma D are now disabled during a breakdown.
    -Shuttles and fighters cannot be launched during breakdown.
    -Fighters cannot be retrieved during breakdown.
    -ESG field drops when a breakdown occurs.
    -Erratic Maneuvers cannot be used during a breakdown.
    -Emergency stop cannot be used during a breakdown.
    -Maximum speed restored properly if ship does not completely stop.
51) Phaser damage to Plasma is now 4 points of damage reduces plasma strength by one.
52) Fast missile speed reduce to 32.
53) Pseudo plasma recharge time has been reduced.
54) Photon Proximity hit chances changes as follows: 9-12(83%), 13-30(66.7%) and 31-55(33.3% NO Change)
55) ESG vs Hellbore interaction added.
56) F12 screenshot limit imposed - 1 shot limit every 5 seconds - to help prevent cheating.
57) Hitting Shift-ScrollLock during red alert will save many of your ship's settings which are applied on     any future red alert.  (Data stored in Assets/WeaponGroups/WQSB.ini)
58) Fast Repair Bug fixed; each weapon slot must be at 50% health to operate.
59) Multiplayer (GameSpy/Dyna) networking code optimized; effects of lag should be reduced.
60) Plasma I defensive firing made smarter.
61) Phaser-G hardpoint charging status indicator fixed.
62) Phaser-G multiple-slot hardpoints can now fire all shots.
63) Phaser-G point defense fixed to count shots correctly.
64) If ADD shot at a shuttle, it would only shoot once then completely disable PD vs.the shuttle.
65) EM and WW launch now void any active ESG field.
66) ESG now delivers correct damage to kill fighters (previously some ESG energy was wasted).
67) Single fighter group no longer drops multiple ESG rings unless energy expenditure warrants it.
68) Mine detonation on ESG ring when user changed radius UI control fixed.
69) Tractor hold, grab, then switch to repel now drops tractor hold.
70) Tractor charging and switching hold/repel, repel/hold now resets tractor capacitor.
71) F12 Screenshot file write made asynchronous (meaning faster).
72) Phaser slots that are destroyed now recycle their ready state.
73) Mirv warheads would not loose track of cloaked vessels - fixed.
74) Adjusted MIRV loadouts.
75) PhG does not honor shift-Z "fire all" command - fixed.
76) Normal Hellbore holding cost reduced to 2.5 points from 3.
77) Ships that are tractored can no longer initiate cloak.
78) Damaged fighters now take time to repair/replace.
79) Shield repair rate has been reduce to approximately 3/4 of previous value.
80) OrionOrion not being recorded in database - fixed.
81) Pseudo Fighters no longer regenerate PPTs.

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.5.0.1
--------------

1) Bug when fleeing on mission, decreases hex defense value -fixed
2) Ghosting of characters ("you are already logged on") should be fixed.
3) Killing of AI characters wasn't removing ships - fixed
4) Fixed mission not completing.
5) Fixed Singleplayer campaign crash after viewing map
6) Disabled the ESC during Dynaverse tactical, now only available if you fly off the map.
7) Single campaign crashes when exiting - fixed.
8) Player now cannot move while being drafted in dynaverse.
9) Multiplayer timing improved.
10) Metaverse game speed not always set (if they go into skirmish, then meta) - fixed.
11) We now handle directplay error DPERR_INVALIDPLAYER properly which had led to crashes in some scripts.
12) We now handle DPERR_CONNECTIONLOST properly, that had kept humans from matching up.
13) Mission AI ships are now deleted after mission (slowdown bug)
14) Changes to the ISC and Pirate political matrix.
15) Security cheat where players could log on to a dynaverse server without checks and then log on to a secure server - fixed.
16) Human to human matches under dynaverse were not always reporting the battles properly - fixed.
17) 0 Battery causing crash when opening fleet control panel - fixed.
18) Plasma D able to fire at cloaked ships - fixed.
19) Scatterpacks now void Wild Weasels.
20) Maximum range disruptors range was incorrect.  Reduced damage from 2 to 1 - fixed.
21) Scripts not able to set store items correctly on startup - fixed.
22) Batteries not recharging correctly - fixed.
23) Erratic Manuevers generating excessive ECM - fixed.
24) Defensive Plasma not firing at all targets if chosen target is fighter group - fixed.
25) A single admin shuttle can drop 6 ESGs - fixed.
26) Bug fixed where program would crash if you looked at the vessel library before joining a Dynaverse server, after creating a fresh character.
27) Map not centered on player at start of play - fixed.
28) Phaser 3 and G firing Point Defense at range 3 (too far) - fixed.
29) Range 0 ESG missing drones - fixed.
30) ESG cycle time has changed to 1.5 turns after firing.
31) AMD to hit % too effective - fixed (KM).
32) AMD alwasys destroying WW, Scatterpack and Suicide Shuttles in one hit - fixed (KM).
33) AMD not affected by EM - fixed (KM).
34) Gorn race ships too weak - increased hull strength.
35) CD key in use message error - fixed.
36) High drone control ships (advanced era) causing crash - fixed.
37) Scan progress indicator not working - fixed.
38) Running when ambush causing a change of hex ownership - fixed.
39) WW, Scatterpack and Suicide Shuttles not taking enough damage - fixed (KM).
40) User name field for logging onto Dynaverse larger for email addresses.
41) Plasma holding costs reduced slightly R(4), S(2.33), G(1.5).
42) AMD and Plasma D not firing at SS and Scatterpacks - fixed
43) Ph2 range table corrections (KM).
44) WW speed has been reduced to 6 (was 12).
45) Each PPD pulse is now a separate volley (KM).
46) PPD stops firing if target moves out of firing range (KM).
47) Damage for each PPD pulse is now calculated when the pulse hits, not when the user fired it (KM).
48) Normal photon feedback damage has been reduced to 2 (was 4, same as overload).
49) Disruptor feedback Range 0 - Normal changed from 0 to 1, overloaded from 4 to 2.
50) Lowered repair time of Phaser 3s, Phaser G, ADD12 and Tractors.
51) Increased repair time of  Phaser G2 and Phaser 4.
52) Crash upon exiting game - fixed.

Note
(KM) Indicates bug fixed by KhoroMag patching team.

*******************************************************

So you'll note....there are TWO kinds of fixes...things fixed for EAW by Kworomang and ported over....AND things DF fixed....


Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2004, 12:42:53 pm »
DAMN...these list are so long they exeed the charactor limit!...

Read me for EAW:

******************************************

Star Trek Starfleet Command(R) Volume II: Empires at War(TM)
Patch 2.0.3.6 Readme File
28 October 2002

WARNING: *If you have a modded ship list, this patch will replace it*

NOTE:
   To create an account on GameSpy for the first time to get on
   Dynaverse II: you enter your email address, a password, a nickname,
   and press the button "Create New Account" on the Dynaverse II Login
   screen.  Or enter information from an existing GameSpy account.
   Then press "Login"!

--------------------
01 Table of Contents
--------------------
01  Table of Contents
02  Patch Changes
03  Installation Instructions
04  System Requirements
05  Copy Protection
06  Manual
07  Default HotKey List
08  Taunts
09  Known Issues
10  Trouble Shooting
11  Bonus Files
12  Technical Support
13  Technical Support (UK)
14  Legal Stuff

--------------
02 Patch features and fixes in 2.0.3.6 by the KhoroMag patching team
--------------

1 General instability in 2.0.3.3 - fixed.
1 Dyna SQL Compatibility with MySQL 3.23.52 and MyODBC 3.51.03 - fixed.
2 SQL political tensions bug - fixed.
3 Disappearing fighter/shuttle icons bug - fixed.
4 Launching shuttles or fighters now voids any WW.
5 AMD damage being multiplied by number of players in a multi game - fixed.
6 Point defense phasers firing at objects out of arc - fixed.


--------------
02 Patch features and fixes in 2.0.3.3 by the KhoroMag patching team
--------------

New Features

1)Erratic maneuvers now fires instantly, requires 1 turn to recharge (like OP).
2)Hitting Shift-ScrollLock during red alert will save many of your ship's settings which are applied on any future red alert.  (Data stored in Assets/WeaponGroups/WQSB.ini)
3)Code recompiled with optimization for speed instead of size.
4)Fighter repair, rearm, and regeneration changed:
**Maximum fighters regenerated is equal to 1/2 of the ship's deck crew.
**Rearming and repair/regeneration occurs at the same time.
**Rearming costs 1/2 turn per fighter in the squad at the time it docks.
**Repair costs up to a full turn to repair any damage to the damaged fighter.
**Regeneration costs 1 turn per fighter.
**Repair and Regeneration cost is combined.
**The maximum time is therefore the maximum of repair/regen or rearming.
**The user interface shows two progress bars however they are identical and this unfortunately cannot be changed without artwork changes.  Therefore you will not be able to see the individual repair/regen and rearming progress.

Patch Fixes

0)Client game film recording is working again.
1)Fast Repair Bug fixed; all repairable hardpoint slots must be at 50% health to operate.
2)Fixed repair time of multiple slot hardpoints to match the number of weapons in them.
3)Fighter control icons will no longer disappear unexpectedly.
4)Direct-fire fighter weapons are now ready to fire first shot after 8 impulses, and can fire one shot per turn after that (except disruptors which are 2 shots per turn).
5)Heavy PF weapons are now ready to fire after 8 impulses, and follow regular charging rules after that.
6)Fighter minimum speed set to 20.
7)Shield reinforcement is no longer applied to downed shields when taking damage. 
8)Dynaverse 2 patrol missions no longer award a win to players who disengage.
9)Spare parts standard and maximum values in Dynaverse 2 space dock fixed.
10)Starbases destroyed during a battle are now removed from the Dynaverse 2 map. 
11)Saved game difficulty is now enforced when reading in a single-player campaign. 
12)Unfinished repairs are now completed automatically at the end of a mission.
13)Unused shuttles are now converted back to admin shuttles at the end of a mission, including recovery of resources used to create them.
14)Damage to the damage control system no longer affects repair times, since damage control itself is an unrepairable system.
15)Multiplayer (GameSpy/Dyna) networking tuned; effects of lag may be reduced.
16)Hellbore charging cost reduced to 2.5/turn, holding cost is also 2.5.
17)Volley cycle (mizia) interval changed from 1/20 turn to 1/32 turn [true impulse].
18)Overlapping PPD shots no longer cause too many volley cycles (mizia).
19)Plasma I defensive firing made smarter (like Plasma D in last patch).
20)Proximity photon to-hit table change: 83%/67%/33%.
21)Phaser-G hardpoint charging status indicator fixed.
22)Phaser-G multiple-slot hardpoints can now fire all shots.
23)Phaser-G point defense fixed to count shots correctly.
24)Phaser-G now honors shift-Z "fire all" command.
25)Phaser-G can now be fired if there is just 0.25 energy in the capacitor (previously 1.00 was required but it only used 0.25).
26)Phaser capacitor no longer loses charge when a phaser slot is destroyed.
27)Phaser slots that are destroyed now recycle their ready state.
28)Phaser point defense no longer shoots as Plasma D.
29)Plasma D, Plasma I, phaser point defense, and ADD systems will no longer waste shots on dead things that just haven't disappeared yet.
30)Plasma D and Plasma I will no longer waste multiple shots at the same target.
31)Plasma D reload time increased from 1 turn to 1.33 turns.
32)User-made plasma race ships with ADD hardpoints now fire ADD rounds instead of Plasma D shots from the ADD hardpoint.
33)Plasma D and ADD hardpoints now correctly show offline state in display.
34)Shotgun plasma capacity now based on current setting of weapon, not the hardpoint type.
35)Shotgun plasma no longer wastes unnecessary shots on fighter groups.
36)Shotgun plasma no longer fires more than one plasma at a regular ship.
37)If ADD shot at a shuttle, it would only shoot once then completely disable itself vs. the shuttle.
38)ADD damage versus shuttles and fighters was incorrect; [0..5] fixed to [1..6]
39)ADD12 reload time is now 2 turns instead of 1.
40)HET attempt during EM lowers success rate by 16%.
41)EM and WW launch now void any active ESG field.
42)ESG now delivers correct damage to kill fighters (previously some ESG energy was wasted).
43)Single fighter group no longer drops multiple ESG rings unless energy expenditure warrants it.
44)Mine detonation on ESG ring when user changed radius UI control fixed.
45)Hydran UI for ESG panel (multiplayer only) fixed (buttons were messed up).
46)ESG radius indicator is no longer drawn if the ESG cannot fire (destroyed hardpoint).
47)ESG capacitor and hardpoint now lose charge/ready state when destroyed.
48)ESG field that is 'warming up' will no longer cause drones to miss a Lyran target.
49)Cloak can no longer be engaged while being tractored.
50)Tractor lock on a cloaked ship negates the range doubling effect.
51)Switching from hold to repel now drops tractor hold.
52)Switching from hold to repel, or repel to hold now resets tractor capacitor.
53)When the tractor system is destroyed it will no longer charge holding cost because the capacitor is emptied automatically..
54)Speed 11 changed from 5 seconds/turn to 10 seconds/turn.
55)Assault shuttles now require 4 marines to create, and subtract none on impact.
56)Removed debug code that wrote to "EWdump.txt" on every single phaser fire.
57)Plasma I restricted to one shot per firing ship per turn, when firing at starship sized targets (non fighter, PF).
58)Plasma holding costs reduced as follows (first number is normal, second is eneveloping) R(4/5), S(2/4), G (1/2.5).
59)Shield regeneration due to labs, lowered slightly.
60)BPV adjusted upward for Missile G ships.
61)Escort ships received a BPV increase.
62)BPV increase for Plasma I torps removed.
63)Docking "weak" fighters will no longer transform them into stronger variety (i.e. Hornet.I magically becoming Wasp.III)
64)Launching fighters now voids WW.
65)Disengaging in Dynaverse assault missions (Planety, starbase, etc.) gives leaving player a defeat.
66)ESG vs Hellbore interaction re-added.
67)Cannot complete mission "Dropping the Hammer" - fixed.

--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.0.1.3 by the KhoroMag patching team
--------------
1)  Damage allocation fixed.
2)  Added option to allow game host to specify hidden race and/or BPV in multiplayer ship select screen.
3)  Weapon hardpoint user interface enhanced to show individual slot status.
4)  Destroyed hardpoint slots now lose their charge and cannot hold a charge.
5)  Mines now detonate if your actual speed is fast enough to trigger them.
6)  Mines now arm instantly if the ship that dropped them is destroyed.
7)  ADD effectiveness was too high and has been corrected (die roll was off by 1).
8)  ADD effectiveness is now reduced when EM is used (add 1 to die roll).
9)  ADD now correctly does 1d6 damage against weapon-type shuttles (SS, SP, WW, GAS).
10) ADD12 repair cost lowered to 4 (SFB value).
11) EM in a multiplayer game now properly updates attack shift on all computers.
12) EM voice no longer plays if user cancels EM countdown.
13) ECM now affects seeking weapons properly.
14) Fighters can no longer dock with their mothership if they are being held in a tractor lock.
15) Fighters no longer receive disruptor feedback at Range 0.
16) Fighter fusion corrected - can no longer fire at Range 3 (2.99 max).
17) Fighter photon corrected - can no longer fire at Range 5 (4.99 max).
18) Fighters now carry the correct number of missiles based on the ftrlist.txt file.
19) All weapon shuttles now require 6 internals to kill (previously only 1 internal).
20) Suicide shuttle launch now properly voids a wild weasel.
21) Double-clicking to make multiple shuttles of the same type simultaneously is prohibited.
22) Shuttle conversions no longer remain on-screen when the 'd' key is used to slide panel away.
23) WW launch now properly updates the attack shift on all computers.
24) WW corrected to generate 6 ECM (was 12).
25) WW speed has been reduced to 6 (was 12).
26) Defensive shift now shows proper value when a WW is valid.
27) Defensive tractor hotkey now works properly when tractor system is damaged.
28) Ship explosions corrected: Damage < 10 is Range 0, otherwise explosion is Range 1.
29) Film filename longer than 70 characters no longer causes a crash in the film room.
30) Ships with 32 or 64 marines no longer mysteriously lose a marine 7 seconds into the simulation.
31) Each PPD pulse is now a separate volley.
32) PPD stops firing if target moves out of firing range.
33) Damage for each PPD pulse is now calculated when the pulse hits, not when the user fired it.
34) PPD damage versus fighter groups has been fixed.
35) Missile racks no longer lose a missile at startup.
36) Space dock now works correctly with missile racks having more than one standard reload (like DroG-2).
37) missiles cannot slip past an active Radius 0 ESG at high speeds any more.
38) ESG now triggers active mines to explode.  ESG absorbs what it can, remainder hits ship.
39) ESG no longer does more damage than its maximum when firing up and targets are in the radius.
40) ESG no longer hits ships on your team that were captured from other teams.
41) ESG power request corrected for multiple ESG hardpoints.
42) ESG ring radius corrected to be consistent with other direct-fire weapons.
43) ESG ring is now drawn at the exact outer edge of the damage radius.
44) ESG ring is now drawn at the correct size on all computers in multiplayer and film playbacks.
45) ESG field now drops if the hardpoint is destroyed.
46) ESG now hits enemy Wild Weasels and Probes in the ring.
47) Shield reinforcement effect on enveloping plasma and hellbore feedback corrected.
48) Phaser damage against incoming plasma has been corrected.
49) Plasma D auto-firing mechanism will no longer fire more than one Plasma D at a time at an incoming target.
50) Plasma D launcher firing rate increased.
51) Normal photon feedback damage has been reduced to 2 (was 4, same as overload).
52) Normal hellbores no longer do any feedback damage (no myopic zone in SFB).
53) Overloaded hellbore feedback damage now only occurs if the weapon hits its target.
54) Ph3 repair cost lowered from 3 to 2 (SFB value).
55) PhG repair cost lowered from 10 to 6 (SFB value).
56) Ph2 range table corrections: 16-29 -> 16-30; 30-51.5 -> 31-50
57) Disruptor feedback Range 0 - Normal changed from 0 to 1, overloaded from 4 to 2.
58) Films from previous versions cannot be played with 2.0.0.8.
59) Various HET Breakdown fixes:
    -Probes can no longer fire during a breakdown.
    -T-bombs can no longer be placed during a breakdown.
    -Hit and runs no longer function during a breakdown.
    -Defensive tractors no longer function during a breakdown.
    -Point defense is now disabled during a breakdown.
    -ADD and Plasma D are now disabled during a breakdown.
    -Shuttles and fighters cannot be launched during breakdown.
    -Fighters cannot be retrieved during breakdown.
    -ESG field drops when a breakdown occurs.
    -Erratic Maneuvers cannot be used during a breakdown.
    -Emergency stop cannot be used during a breakdown.
    -Maximum speed restored properly if ship does not completely stop.
60) Phaser damage to Plasma is now 4 points of damage reduces plasma strength by one.
61) Fast missile speed reduce to 32.
62) Pseudo plasma recharge time has been reduced.
63) Plasma holding costs reduced slightly R(4), S(2.33), G(1.5).

Offline KBF-Crim

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  • Crim,son of Rus'l
Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2004, 12:44:00 pm »

02 Patch fixes in 2.0.0.7g
--------------

1) Bug when fleeing on mission, decreases hex defense value -fixed
2) Ghosting of characters ("you are already logged on") should be fixed.
3) Killing of AI characters wasn't removing ships - fixed
4) Fixed mission not completing.
5) Fixed Singleplayer campaign crash after viewing map
6) Disabled the ESC during Dynaverse tactical, now only available if you fly off the map.
7) Converted chat and directory listing system from Won.net to Gamespy.  Chat is VASTLY improved.
8) Single campaign crashes when exiting - fixed.
9) Player now cannot move while being drafted in dynaverse.
10) Multiplayer timing improved.
11) Metaverse game speed not always set (if they go into skirmish, then meta) - fixed.
12) We now handle directplay error DPERR_INVALIDPLAYER properly which had led to crashes in some scripts.
13) We now handle DPERR_CONNECTIONLOST properly, that had kept humans from matching up.
14) Mission AI ships are now deleted after mission (slowdown bug)
15) Changes to the ISC and Pirate political matrix.
16) Security cheat where players could log on to a dynaverse server without checks and then log on to a secure server - fixed.
17) Human to human matches under dynaverse were not always reporting the battles properly - fixed.
18) Germans can now connect and play on dynaverse servers.
19) 0 Battery causing crash when opening fleet control panel - fixed.
20) Plasma D able to fire at cloaked ships - fixed.
21) Scatterpacks now void Wild Weasels.
22) Maximum range disruptors range was incorrect.  Reduced damage from 2 to 1 - fixed.
23) Scripts not able to set store items correctly on startup - fixed.
24) Batteries not recharging correctly - fixed.
25) Battery meter now reads in units of energy (use to read in fraction of total).
26) Erratic Manuevers generating excessive ECM - fixed.
27) Implemented Defensive Shift indicator.
28) Defensive Plama not firing at all targets if chosen target is fighter group - fixed.
29) User name field for logging onto Dynaverse larger for email addresses.
30) A single admin shuttle can drop 6 ESGs - fixed.
31) Bug fixed where program would crash if you looked at the vessel library before joining a Dynaverse server, after creating a fresh character.
32) Map not centered on player at start of play - fixed.
33) Phaser 3 and G firing Point Defense at range 3 (too far) - fixed.
34) Range 0 ESG missing missiles - fixed.
35) ESG cycle time has been reduce by 1/2 turn after field drops.
36) Plasma S hold cost reduced from 3.0 to 2.66.


--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.0.0.6
--------------

Tactical Fixes and Feature Additions

1) Free missile bug
2) Camera bug
3) Some ships unable to generate 6 points of ECM
4) Switch to wingman, can't fire at selected target
5) "T" stops cycling target list
6) Spare part limit increased for single-player
7) Multiplayer 2nd and 3rd ship supply bug
8) ISC fighter UI crash bug
9) Cloak sound missing in multiplayer
10) Icon for fighters disappearing
11) PPD will no longer hit out of arc
12) H&R raids effectiveness bug fixed
13) Missile type UI readout UI bug
14) Splash damage bug on PPD. Note: PPD never does alt damage only splash.
15 ) Plasma Torpedo bug (should fire for a brief time after destroyed) fixed
16 ) Plasma Torpedoes natural ECCM +3 bonus fixed
17) Ship performing erratic maneuvers create 4 points of ECM
18) Ai not firing a slow moving ships
19) Fleet Control UI buttons reversed
20) 1 point shield bug
21) Shuttle slowdown to dock bug (Shuttles/Fighters )
22) Partial cloak after flash bug
23) Fighters do not have proper ECM/ECCM
24) AMDs able to fire while cloaked
25) AMD could fire while WW is present - fixed
26) Unable to spectate after disengaging in multiplayer
27) Fest ships not random
28) Transporter icon overlap
29) Thief in the night (ISC) hailing bug
30) UI hellbore not showing charge
31) Photon torpedoes are able to erase a 1 shift of EW
32) Delay time for firing of ESG has been halved

Improvements:

1) Special shuttles no longer used by AI at Captain level.
2) HETS no longer used by AI at Captain level.
3) Defensive officer no longer used by AI at Captain level.
4) Click on a fighter group and its icon will flash
5) Use of Transporters now violates wild weasel
6) Firing of probes now violates wild weasel
7) Plasma I now has no Pseudo Plasma
8) Fighter/Shuttle Harass mode
9) Implemented Plasma D rack (Defensive only)
10) ISC have many new variants to cover the different refit periods of their ships


Dynaverse II

Is up and working.

Additional chat commands for Dynaverse II

* list:  Lists out the chat channels available preface with a ( ) if you are
not joined and (*) if you are.
* join [ name ] : Joins a chat channel ( example: "/join federation" )
* leave [ name ] : Leaves a chat channel ( example: /leave General" )
* /afk will make you away from keyboard
*/w (name) will whisper to person

Note - Yes, it is possible to Leave your current chat channel ad not have
any incomming chat.

More info on security for server operators:

Start Security:
32bit CRC security is included with this release.

To use:

Create a directory off of the assests directory for the server platform
called "ValidatedClientFiles".  Any files placed in this directory will be
CRC check on the client.  The StarFleet.exe file and any script files *can*
be placed in this directory for checking.  You do *not* have to place the
executable or any script file in the directory.  When the server platform
starts, you will see a debug message go by "VALIDATING for these files:"
followed by the list of files checked.

Clients that do not have the files checked-for, or clients that do not have
the correct version of the checked-for files will not be allowed on that
server and will recieve a dialog containing a server-operator defined
message (in Assest.gf), a list of incompatible files and reasons why each
file is not compatible.

End Security


----------
02 Patch fixes in 2.0.0.5
--------------
1) AMD is now H&Rable
2) AMD can be turned on and off.
3) Romulans can use cloaking device without game going out of sync.
4) campaign game will not slow downafter long periods of play
5) Normal disruptors no longer cause feedback damage.
6) Long Wait Period At Start Of Multiplayer Game
7) There are reports of players having their ships turn into Neutral status in the campaign
8) You can no longer get credit for taking parts off your ship. (stripping bug)
9) multiple phaser Gs were not firing all shots when  mounted on single hardpoint.
10) Battery will not give you free power when turned off.
11) You can no longer tractor multiple targets
12) Downloaded Plasma F's now take 2 turns to load.
13) You can now break tractor with equal amount of energy
14) Cloaked ships may deploy wild weasels
15) All Allied ships AI are always set to smartest level.
16) Probes now cost 1 pt to charge.
17) beaming spare parts requiers a transporter.
18) Stopping a repair no longer fixes the weapon.
19) Overloaded Hellbores no fire to range 8
20) Hitting Esc or Back button in setup screen (on Mplayer) no longer kicks you back to the lobby.



--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.0.0.4
--------------
1) Plasma I's no longer do double damage in defensive mode.
2) Disabled viewing replay's in the metaverse, you can watch all movies in the
3) Film room.
4) Fixed fighters and shuttles in space being lost at end of Mission.
5) Fixed "attacking target ship" message appearing when trying to tractor a ship with an active decoy shuttle.
6) In single player campaign the correct briefing maps are now being displayed.
7) Voodoo textures are in and replaced.
8) Engine rumble has been fixed.
9) Watchdog Ultility for user servers is availble.
10) Many Mission updates
11) Planets no longer appear on players team.
11) Last but not least, Dynaverse II is availble for Open Beta.


--------------
02 Patch fixes in 2.0.0.3
--------------
1) MPlayer backing out of the vessel library during ship selectio no longer exits the game.
2) The freqency of multiplayer games having slot issues, if multiple clients join in at the same time has been reduced.
3) The film room re-enterance crash bug has been fixed.
4) Skirmish mode now allows the player to select for the full five opponents instead of four.  Plus minor skirmish areas fixes.
5) Hot keys F6,F7, and F8 now properly switch between your fleet.
6) Clients jumping into a game while the Host is selecting AI opponents no longer freezes up Host.
7) Mines in nebulas will no longer be removed from stores if the player attempts to lay them (mines can not be layed in nebula).

----------------------------
03 Installation Instructions
----------------------------

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2004, 12:47:52 pm »
So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...


kortez

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2004, 01:00:05 pm »
Well said, Crimmy!

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2004, 01:04:30 pm »
> Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...

If your refering to me, I was keeping tabs on nwn almost 2 yrs before it came out.

> 1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...

thats a nick picking issue that what, a handful of people ad and was addressed in the first or second patch.

> 2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...

ati driver issue, blame ati

> 3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...

again a small group of people, and was addressed in short time via a patch to turn off securerom

> 4) OS problems of all sorts...

I dont recall any 'os problems' details please?

> In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...

Thats quite a exeragation. While there were bugs, as expected the game was PLAYABLE from start to finish out of the box. Server was a bit unstable but by the first or second patch got much better. And I might add by the time the 6 month period of its release rolled around 3 or 4 major patches were released.

> Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...

So thats  get-out-of-jail card for taldren? I dont think thats any reason to not hold them accountable and shift all the blame to someone else. I find it humorous reading some of these posts that taldren can do no wrong and the entire world was against them apparently... Not stating your posts like that but a general observation.

> Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...

One could say the same about your comments. If you want to nit pick then yes you'll find issues in every pc game launch, nwn or otherwise. That wasnt my issue as thats expected. The point you made about nwn were, as a whole very minor. It shipped with EVERY major componet promised and worked out of the box. Neither can be said about the sfc series.


What I said was not nitpicking, it was fact overall.

From your response it is obvious you are either

#1 A rabid fanboi with no way to objectively look at things...

#2 You weren't there on the launch

#3 You didn't see the abuse the tech support guys got (course you probably wouldn't see that unless you had connections to Bioware...but nonetheless).


For comparisons...

Pool of Radiance, one of the buggiest games up until that point...had 25,000 posts within the first 24 hours in its tech support forums and with all the problems it had.

NWN had 12,000 some odd posts in it's tech support forums with such troubles, from not running, to destroying computers...

compared to a quarter of that in it's other forums...

I can only surmise you hadn't seen many game launches prior to that...whilst I cannot say I know how many posts went into interplay's or Taldren's forums on release of SFC 2, as far as Star Trek games (known to be buggy), RPG games, and RTS games, NWN is on par for one of the worst releases...didn't beat POR2, but it was one of the worst releases.  Not due to Bioware...but Atari.

The thing is, it seems that you hold one company accountable for items that with another company you are more than ready to look over...

Which actually sounds rather absurd...

I'm just pointing out what you are...

I am also a pretty strong Bioware fan, even get along with some of people there...

And I enjoy NWN...but you are wrong in the assumptions...

As far as shipping with everything as promised...

I see you don't run linux...

Yes, that was answered to the linux crowd shortly...but then again...so was the dynaverse...

What I'm pointing out is that you are holding different standards for one company than you are for another...either hold it for all of them...or stop whining...

The thing is, both of them learned things from those experiences...Taldren learned something in how to negotiate with their distributors, Bioware learned that making D&D games whilst mixed in between Hasbro and Atari might not be their most fulfilling experience and they might want to work on other things...Both however, dealt more with problems with their distributors than themselves.

However, you ARE wrong on why Taldren closed it's offices...as in very wrong it seems when trying to tie it to SFC.

Oh, and I never saw Derek eat dirt...not that I'd want him to.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 01:08:23 pm by Dash Jones »
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2004, 01:20:32 pm »
54) Photon Proximity hit chances changes as follows: 9-12(83%), 13-30(66.7%) and 31-55(33.3% NO Change)

 :lol:
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2004, 01:21:21 pm »
> Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...

If your refering to me, I was keeping tabs on nwn almost 2 yrs before it came out.

> 1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...

thats a nick picking issue that what, a handful of people ad and was addressed in the first or second patch.

> 2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...

ati driver issue, blame ati

> 3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...

again a small group of people, and was addressed in short time via a patch to turn off securerom

> 4) OS problems of all sorts...

I dont recall any 'os problems' details please?

> In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...

Thats quite a exeragation. While there were bugs, as expected the game was PLAYABLE from start to finish out of the box. Server was a bit unstable but by the first or second patch got much better. And I might add by the time the 6 month period of its release rolled around 3 or 4 major patches were released.

> Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...

So thats  get-out-of-jail card for taldren? I dont think thats any reason to not hold them accountable and shift all the blame to someone else. I find it humorous reading some of these posts that taldren can do no wrong and the entire world was against them apparently... Not stating your posts like that but a general observation.

> Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...

One could say the same about your comments. If you want to nit pick then yes you'll find issues in every pc game launch, nwn or otherwise. That wasnt my issue as thats expected. The point you made about nwn were, as a whole very minor. It shipped with EVERY major componet promised and worked out of the box. Neither can be said about the sfc series.


Harlequin,

If you hate the game so much,
why are you here?


AgentSloan

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2004, 02:52:53 pm »
So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...



I already said I didnt buy or play OP so your point is moot.

Lets talk about sfc2 proper and how it still crashes and has issues.

All that shows me is they put more effort into a expansion to make more money off of the people then fix their existing products.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2004, 03:04:51 pm »
> What I said was not nitpicking, it was fact overall.

I disgaree. You dont see me crying about how much damage this missle did or how that ship is unbalanced. Those kind of things we not my concern and I would consider nit picking on sfc. What you brought up I consider the same kind of thing. A very small group had issue slike any other game.

But you never disputed or proved me wrong on my points.

a. bioware got patches out on a timely manor vs taldren. For ever patch taldren got out bio got out 3 or more for the same time period.

b. nwn works and has for some time. If you dispute that check out the game spy server and number of servers up after 2 yrs from launch I might add.

And for the recond I have been critical of bioware at times, but they have ALWAYS come through in the end and I have never bought a product of theirs and had it fail to work as advertised.

and no I dont run linux. Also the cuts from linux and BEOS came DURING development. they announced it PRIOR to it hitting the shelves. See the difference? Honesty with their customers.

As for trying to compair the cuts form the linux aspect of the game and sfc is just silly. Your now just reaching for excuses on taldrens part.

And you call me a fanboi? heh.. I call it like I see it.





.

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2004, 03:19:20 pm »
  I think he referring to all Taldrens games.I am wondering the same thing.

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2004, 03:21:53 pm »
The following thought occured to me regarding our earlier comparison of D&D/NWN and SFB/SFC:
...in D&D much was open to interpretation and was entirely at the discretion of the DM, in SFB there was no leeway in the rules... what I'm getting at is that both gaming systems had 300+ pages of rules but in SFB there is no DM... so how do you really know that NWN follows the rules of D&D to the letter? With SFB the unyeilding rules (and players who know them like the back of their hand) would still make for a more challenging development project... it is really obvious to us when the game goes against the established parameters of SFB...just a thought.  (Also, please note that most folks here are die hard Taldren fans, if you don't understand why, that's OK)

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2004, 03:22:33 pm »
So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...



I already said I didnt buy or play OP so your point is moot.

Lets talk about sfc2 proper and how it still crashes and has issues.

All that shows me is they put more effort into a expansion to make more money off of the people then fix their existing products.



Let us talk about SFC II proper?
Why?

All you are doing is harping on the past,
ignoring the improvements since then,

Anyone can dwell on a flaw.... but you make it a "bitch-and-mown" fest,


Get off it.



AgentSloan

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2004, 03:40:28 pm »
The following thought occured to me regarding our earlier comparison of D&D/NWN and SFB/SFC:
...in D&D much was open to interpretation and was entirely at the discretion of the DM, in SFB there was no leeway in the rules... what I'm getting at is that both gaming systems had 300+ pages of rules but in SFB there is no DM... so how do you really know that NWN follows the rules of D&D to the letter? With SFB the unyeilding rules (and players who know them like the back of their hand) would still make for a more challenging development project... it is really obvious to us when the game goes against the established parameters of SFB...just a thought.  (Also, please note that most folks here are die hard Taldren fans, if you don't understand why, that's OK)

To answer your question...he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about.

As a member of the NWN community, I've seen much worse leveled at Bioware.  The technical problems were mainly caused by Atari's meddling.  It is actually quite applicable to SFC 2 however, except NWN was even a bigger nightmare.  There were some idiots even tossing around lawsuits...however...they were idiots.

You hit on a key point though, that many have had problems with concerning NWN.  One of the biggest complaints about NWN currently is how loosely it follows the rules.

The problem with the starter of this thread, is

#1 - They don't know any facts, or are oblivious to it.  Especially in concerns to why Taldren closed down their offices.  They assume on things they obviously have NO idea about.

#2 - They blame Taldren for all the problems with SFC games...whilst more then ready to overlook any other game maker problems.  The obvious fault is that many independent game makers have the same problems with their distributors.  The Bioware entanglement with atari is a perfect example of that, with the deadlines, the distributor meddling, and other things which in many ways are almost a perfect mirror of what occurred with SFC 2.  NWN had bigger hype about it, and sold more at the outset (IMO) which created an even bigger problem.  The main problem, the CD protection installed by Atari wasn't actually handled until patch 1.23 of NWN...

This led to complaints of people saying Bioware was working on everything BUT the problem...when in effect, Bioware couldn't do anything ABOUT the problem (hands tied, much like Taldren suddenly had hands tied with Won.net) until they got it through the publishers.  Atari STILL did something stupid and reintroduced CDprotection in SoA, even after the fiasco of the NWN release...

Basically I expect, because Harl is a fanboi...a rabid one, that his support of Bioware, or ANY independent publisher isn't exactly what I would call stellar.  He'll support Bioware as long as they are in the hype, but if they run into problems, he'll jump ship to another developer and chew Bioware in the back.

However, his kind is catered to, as all sells are welcome...however, he doesn't realize how much others can see through such raves.  I would consider his original post as either

merely trolling as he states some rather obvious incorrect assumptions in it (as Mr. Bethke directly answered some of these things, and they had nothing to do with what harl suggests), and just has some rather absurd comments on his part.

He takes the idea that I compare these things as attacking Bioware...because he's so caught up in his own delusions, he can't accept the idea that maybe there's something different than what he thinks, even if what he has concluded is incorrect.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2004, 03:44:39 pm »
The following thought occured to me regarding our earlier comparison of D&D/NWN and SFB/SFC:
...in D&D much was open to interpretation and was entirely at the discretion of the DM, in SFB there was no leeway in the rules... what I'm getting at is that both gaming systems had 300+ pages of rules but in SFB there is no DM... so how do you really know that NWN follows the rules of D&D to the letter? With SFB the unyeilding rules (and players who know them like the back of their hand) would still make for a more challenging development project... it is really obvious to us when the game goes against the established parameters of SFB...just a thought.  (Also, please note that most folks here are die hard Taldren fans, if you don't understand why, that's OK)

Oops, got so caught up in just utter disgust at the troll that I didn't answer your statement totally.

There are many that actually state that NWN doesn't follow the rules exactly.  There have been debates on how to change what, and what could be changed stemming from the very release of NWN.  This saw the rise of several modifications of rules, for hardcore D&D players.  However, it has never been enough to really satisfy those who are really deep into the rules.  Bioware has been accused of trying to copy Diablo more than D&D, and catering more to action oriented audiences instead of D&D audiences...etc.

I believe they don't catch the magic of what makes NWN special, which isn't it's campaign (another thing regularly brought up in angst), nor is it how closely it adheres to rules, but the magic of how easy it is to mod, and how easy it is to create your own adventures.  In fact I think it's a roleplayer's dream come true!

But as for rule debates...oh yes...they are alive and well, and sometimes are much more heated than what you see concerning SFC...
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2004, 03:45:14 pm »
So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...



So, what orientation is it if you:

See it as a sign of failure... but having the commitment to eventually fix so much? ;)

And as far as harping on the past goes, the thread is called "A final thought on Taldren"  a company that no longer exists in America, therefore there is only the past to discuss.  If it's an issue for some, perhaps those people should just pass on by this thread and go to a different one more to their liking? ;)

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2004, 03:55:46 pm »
So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...



So, what orientation is it if you:

See it as a sign of failure... but having the commitment to eventually fix so much? ;)

And as far as harping on the past goes, the thread is called "A final thought on Taldren"  a company that no longer exists in America, therefore there is only the past to discuss.  If it's an issue for some, perhaps those people should just pass on by this thread and go to a different one more to their liking? ;)

Good point.

Taldren still exists, just based in Korea now...

Anways, good point...so unless someone responds to my posts...I'll try to not stick my nose and annoy this thread any longer.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline Harlax

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2004, 06:52:17 pm »
Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...

1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...

2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...

3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...

4) OS problems of all sorts...

In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...

Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...

Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...

SFC 2 might be comparable to the NWN launch...maybe...but I haven't seen that many releases as bad as the original release of NWN...luckily Bioware worked fast and furious...without sleep...for many a day...

And Atari was at least smart enough (after being complete idiots with the copyprotection schemes...which they STILL are stupid about...and I still hold they only hurt legit customers) and scared enough of the power Bioware wielded, to at least acquiesce to Bioware's demands in some areas.  (on the otherhand, another company that made a D&D game with Atari, Trioka wasn't as fortunate, and not only had the Copy protection problems, but also had Atari cut whole chunks out of the game code (as if it wouldn't cause problems) as well as had demands from hasbro to cut other portions of the game and code out... (as if Atari and Hasbro thought cutting portions of the coding out wouldn't cause any problems, talk about stupid execs).

Anyways...just to refresh your memory on the release of NWN...

I had to buy a new CD drive to get NWN to work.  At all, not just mutliplayer mode.

I had to buy a new sound card to get sound.  Oh I could play with the sound turned off.  Right.

Yes, far from perfect on release.  If  I remember correctly the ship version was 1.10, the first patch was 1.18 (wonder what happened to the other 7...)  and we are now on 1.62.  Yes, far from perfect.
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Offline Lepton

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2004, 10:04:05 pm »
I love how you guys, especially Crim, have absolutely no concept of an objective analysis of anything.  It's always some sort of personal attack on you if something someone says disagrees with your personal views.  And that the automatic assumption is that criticism somehow means disdain by the critic and let's show the critic the door because he must hate the game anyway. 

Harlequin stated his assessment in a very reasonable manner to my mind especially in comparing Taldren with an exemplar of great industry standards.  It seems to my mind Taldren did as much as they could to keep their player base happy by fixing things and providing support and that could only help support their business.  If they had screwed everyone, they could never have sold EAW, OP, or SFC3, so it was in their best interest.  I don't know if they went above and beyond the call of duty in general although David's work well after any official patches were coming down the line was pretty extraordinary.  That I do give alot of credit for.  Everything else can go one way or the other, good or bad.  I don't think Harlequin is fault-finding in any respect, merely objective and demanding of high standards.  No crime there.


System Specs:

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Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2004, 10:10:32 pm »
I love how you guys, especially Crim, have absolutely no concept of an objective analysis of anything.  It's always some sort of personal attack on you if something someone says disagrees with your personal views.  And that the automatic assumption is that criticism somehow means disdain by the critic and let's show the critic the door because he must hate the game anyway. 

<snip>

.  I don't think Harlequin is fault-finding in any respect, merely objective and demanding of high standards.  No crime there.

Lepton,

I believe you are misjudging the situation.
Please refer back to Harlequins posts.

Upon inspection, you will note that your description of Harlequin as
"....merely objective and demanding of high standards,..."

may require "some review" upon you part.

Food-for-thought.


Take care,
AgentSloan

Offline Lepton

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2004, 10:13:50 am »
Bah!  I read the whole thing.  You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.


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Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2004, 10:45:11 am »
Bah!  I read the whole thing.  You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.

Um, not all of us. (recheck my posts) - Unless you just meant "you all" in general and not literally...

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2004, 12:57:17 pm »
Bah!  I read the whole thing.  You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.


Traitor brush,...?

No.
I fact I'm being quite civil about the whole thing.
In my opinion, Harlequin is not being reasonable.


The original SFC II: EAW was shipped with an incomplete "multi-player" function?
Right?

D2, meaning "Dynaverse 2: ".... right?

If so, Taldren patched it right.


Additionally along came SFC: OP.
SFC: OP had a "Dynaverse" thing did it not?



Take care, :)
GeneralWolfe

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2004, 12:58:07 pm »
Bah!  I read the whole thing.  You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.


Traitor brush,...?

No.
In fact I'm being quite civil about the whole thing.
In my opinion, Harlequin is not being reasonable.


The original SFC II: EAW was shipped with an incomplete "multi-player" function?
Right?

D2, meaning "Dynaverse 2: ".... right?

If so, Taldren patched it right.


Additionally along came SFC: OP.
SFC: OP had a "Dynaverse" thing did it not?



Take care, :)
GeneralWolfe

Offline Elvis

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2004, 06:59:36 pm »
I wonder how fair the comparison is between Taldren and Bioware? The D&D license is going to bring more money to the table and hence more money to development. IIRC the patches for SFC2 were pretty much funded by the developmwnt of OP. IF there were no money for the development of OP there would have been no money for the EAW patches. Is that right and ethical? Could there have been better situations? We all know the answer is "yes" but money doesn't grow on trees or come out of people's asses. Is this an excuse for Taldren? Its as much an excuse for Taldren as it is for any other business.

Offline Tantalus

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2004, 08:28:23 pm »
Taldren were/are a damn fine company that stuck their necks out on the line for their customers often enough.  They were always available to answer questions and help the community grow, and I have nothing but the upmost respect for them all.

EAW was released with bugs because their publisher rushed it out, and Taldren despised Interplay for what they did.  So much, in fact, that I had an email from Erik himself asking me not to put Taldren's and Interplay's logos next to each other on the SFC2.Net website.

They patched all their games after release... and patches are done in developers own time.  We beta testers were always eagerly awaiting Davids next build which was also done in his spare time so we could test it.

Too many companies that attempt to put the customer first go bust or have bad luck these days... it's a pity.

And to the original poster... you have the right to your opinions... and some of the responses you have received for them have been out of order.  But sometimes things are better left unsaid...

By the way... Hey all... long time no speak.

Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2004, 09:55:25 pm »
OMG it's Tanty!
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See Wade,See Wade post like an arse,See Wade get banned.
Dont be a Wade!

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2004, 10:33:45 pm »
HOW 'BOUT THEM DAWGS!!!!

oops.... wrong thread.  In fact, wrong forum!!!  Yikes!!!


Tanty?  Who's Tanty?  ;)

Oh wait!!!  I think he went AWOL!!

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2004, 02:10:15 am »
Ack sorry to come in so late...

So basicly...

A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...

A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...



So, what orientation is it if you:

See it as a sign of failure... but having the commitment to eventually fix so much? ;)

And as far as harping on the past goes, the thread is called "A final thought on Taldren"  a company that no longer exists in America, therefore there is only the past to discuss.  If it's an issue for some, perhaps those people should just pass on by this thread and go to a different one more to their liking? ;)

...and I think that is what happened.  In my mind Taldren reached a level of redemption.  They stuck with us far longer than they should have by any account.   Others as well helped in that regard.  I think KHOROMAG was mentioned.  There are many others as well.

However I would not be so harsh with Harliquin..I myself am a REALIST.  The past is real.  Our dreams are fantasy's.  This thread is a final thought but the summation should not ignore the parts that brought it to the sum.  If there are some who can't handle it maybe those who can't should pass this thread by.   Or pershaps the author should have retitled it KUMBAYA and we should all join hands and start singing...Now that's another part of the "glass" as well.  That was obviously not his intent.  One thing I do not like and it's this; let's not tell people to post because what they say doesn't fit our notion of things.  That should be a foul on this forum and a very serious one.  Everyone has a say.  We are a small community now and do not have the luxuary of intolerance.

===========================================
> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).

Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.

Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.

> I think Taldren was manned by well intentioned folks who probably bit off a bit more than they could handle and were probably mismanaged a bit.  There is certainly blame for the various problems with the games, but I certainly do not believe that it was all "The Publisher" every time.  I mean they went through 3 publishers, all of whom had the same problems with missed deadlines and such. 
=================================================

...because quite frankly he states what many players were saying right after the release of SFC2.   I am adding my two cents becuase I DON'T want fiction to replace what really happened.   My own rank 10,  Ssazzix, a two time SL winner, was thrown off the Taldren board for saying those very things...perhaps not as politely.

There were many and serious problems with SFC2 when it was released.  I think they came in three general kinds...one was game balance, the other was just a whole mess of bugs, and the Dynaverse (the big PIE IN SPACE) was dysfunctional.   What a mess of spaghetti.

For an online player the game balance issues were paramount (no pun intended).  So I depart from Harlequin's own thread in that regard.  But HE is right actually.  From a business point of view online players usually only represent a fraction of the people who buy a game.  SFC1 sold about 400,000 copies and only about a couple thousand ended up online.  That's the fact.

However, I think we can see the confusion Taldren had in producing this game by looking at how their first release (as a company) effected the online community.  This game shines as a an online product.  Few other games can match it in that regard.  SFC1 satisfied both communities.

So what happened?

Within a month or so of it's release the Lyrans, most hard hit, were pretty much extinct as online players.   That was primarily because they had to wait something like 8 seconds to deploy their primary weapon.   Not to mention the fact that the ESG seemed to just float away when it was deployed unless you changed view or went overhead.   

The Gorns were the next to go.  It took us a while.  Since the point defense was bugged we couldn't starcastle anymore.  Drones would sometimes take two shots from a phaser one to kill leaving your capacitor drained and your ship rather defenseless except for plasma, an easy mark for a speeding klingon who swoop by, crunch a shield, H&R you then outrun your G or S from 6 clicks.   And THATS if you were lucky enough for it to work at all.  Tractoring an oppoenent and using our other big tactis was untinkable since most races could easily break kill  a tactoring Gorn at that time.   At that time we also had no plasma D's.  Most of our ships were dead slow because we had to carry all kinds of phony "holding costs" for no reason other than a few influential people convinced Taldren that THAT was the soluton to game balance, stomp on the plasma ships basically.   Heck I remember a few ROM ships couldn't even MOVE once they loaded and cloaked.  Who was alseep at the switch there eh? 

There was definitely a breakdown from the people who advised Taldren on the game.   Some influential people had "agendas".  I mean when the guy who is writing a tactics and strategy book for the game (SFC2) gets up in the main lobby and starts shouting "NO MORE FREE RIDES" in reference to all the problems they were going to heap on the plasma ships in the name of game balance, I think it was fairly obvious.  Thank god I never bought that book...after all what tactics was a guy who admitted he had "retreated" from an AI controlled ship in a "one on one" going to teach me or any other online player about the game?   Shame on you if he did...

Anyway no sense in going on for I will dredge up many demons better left locked away in a few million braincells.  Go to the readme files in all the patches and read between the lines.   One of the reasons why I started posting on the off topic forums and then the "hot spicey" forum is that I just couldn't stand it anymore.   It was A LOT nicer to argue about politics than it was to try to convince some people that things were totally screwed up.  After all I was just a player, no one special...to them. 

So Harlequin speaks the truth.   If one doesn't like the truth it's their choice to ignore it; close your eyes and tap your heels together three times  (Presto!  He is now a negative personality!)...negativity exists as well as positive things.  And sometimes they are imbalanced.   Sometimes it's good and proper to be pissed off.  There were lessons to be learned from what happened at taldren and SFC2.  They should not be ignored.  Taldren started as a company that seemed to be confused and lacking in programming talent to interpet SFC2 from SFC1.   Those programmers learned their trade over time but in this business "there is a tide in the affairs of men"...and it was too late.

I will miss Taldren.  In the end they began to listen to the RIGHT people.  Honest folks who had no agenda but just wanted all those great players we lost to come back and begin the good times all again.

Well.  The ball is in OUR hands now.



« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 02:38:36 am by Rondo_GE »

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2004, 03:00:29 am »
  Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.

Age I thought those reasons were given.  They no longer had any money to operate with.  They were subcontracted to help DEV Black 9 and got into a squabble witht he publisher who reneged on paying them cancellation monies or penalties.

Also Eric posted in the private forum that he really didn't feel there was much room left for small developers anymore in the states.    Seems to be a probable statement considering the same words were used by the CEO of Sir-Tech a few years ago.

The big boys are running the table right now.

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2004, 04:37:33 am »
  Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.

Age I thought those reasons were given.  They no longer had any money to operate with.  They were subcontracted to help DEV Black 9 and got into a squabble witht he publisher who reneged on paying them cancellation monies or penalties.

Also Eric posted in the private forum that he really didn't feel there was much room left for small developers anymore in the states.    Seems to be a probable statement considering the same words were used by the CEO of Sir-Tech a few years ago.

The big boys are running the table right now.
There are still a lot of small ones up here though.

Offline FPF-Jem

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2004, 05:01:20 am »
My own opinion on the matter (not that anyone cares I'm sure but it's late and I'm bored  ;D) is that Taldren was among the better half of game developers by a fair margin. Certainly others are more outstanding (it did take quite a while to get to those final patches and there were some serious bugs in the initial releases) but far more were worse, much worse in many cases. Taldren at least stuck by the community by continuing to work on patches and tweaking balance far past what any person could reasonable expect of a Game developer.

As far as the arguments that everyone's attacking Harlequin just because he is professing a view that is critical of Taldren, I don't think so. Oh there is certainly disagreement with his view but I think some of Harlequins statements have rubbed people the wrong way, in particular I think Harlequins comparison of SFC to NWN and his subsequent dismissal of Dash Jones rejoinder that NWN had it's own quite serious problems on it's debut is really why many are taking his views on Taldren with a grain of salt. Especially his dismissal of the problems NWN had by arguing that they were only minor and affected a few people. Using similiar logic I could argue that the fact that most people who bought the game primarily played singleplayer(myself included) so the problems affecting the multiplayer side and the broken D2(a few thousand players, a minority compared to the number of sold copies) aren't that important. I'm sure most would think that to be completely silly of me to do so however. Also Harlequins statement to the effect that Bioware has always delivered in the end appears to be hypocritical to many posters who feel the same way about Taldren who did after all patch both EAW and OP to a very high state of polish. I'm sure Harlequin didn't have any ulterior motives other wanting to state his position and he has every right to do so, it's just some disagree with said position and they should be just as free to state their position and seek to debate the issues they disagree with in a calm manner with  Harlequin.
 
I don't know how many games the previous posters have purchased and played. I have a great number of games from almost as many developers. So I have quite a few experiences with seeing how the industry deals with after-release support. From my own experiences I have seen both the heights and the depths which this support can reach. Almost no game is ever released without at least of few bugs or balance issues of some type, it's just to hard to catch them all or test every possible combo of variables. In some games though they come really close and the game is quite playable, most people playing it will never notice in any problems. Other games are unplayable in the initial release and won't even work till the developer delivers the first patch or third or fourth(BC3000AD anyone?). While many view this delivery of shoddy products to be criminal and compare it to other industries where shoddy products can get the company sued, this really isn't the same for most software developers (much less game developers). This is due to the fact that for the most part shoddy software is just a nuisance and not a potentially life threatening flaw like sub-standard wiring in a building or tires that easily fall apart.

Just to give examples of my two extremes, Blizzard has a very good reputation for good solid games and justly so for the most part (though this may be changing of late due to internal issues). You can pick any one of their games and find it to be quite playable and have few problems right after install without having to go download a patch. Other worthy mentions gamewise are Total Annihilation which is also playable and the developer Cavedog released quite a few patches that added additional content to an already good game, as well as Half-life which also has a good history of strong support from it's developer. For especially bad examples, take a peak at the initial start of the Battlecruiser series by he who shall not be named, talk about shoddy games. Or another game called "Pirates of the Caribbean", this game was not only renamed by the publisher but also forced out 4-6 months before the developer wanted to release it just to coincide with the movie release. Many of the original content had to be scrapped and a new main story written at the last minute to have movie tie-ins. It was so hastily converted that it still had artifacts and artwork shipped on the release that was from what the game was originally that wasn't even used by the current game not to mention being buggy as hell. As for after release support, the publisher not only didn't allow a patch to be released but also shut down the forums for the game on their site a few weeks before the game shipped. The developer (based in Russia) had to resort to releasing a "unofficial mod" for the Russian version just to try to fix the game over there. Only the fact that the game has proved to be highly moddable and that the modders are able to fix many of the bugs themselves has saved the game from suffering an instant death on arrival.


So really, Taldren was not by any stretch that bad when it came to supporting it's games. While it might have been preferrable to have received the patches in a more timely fashion and for less bugs to have been present in the initial releases of it's games, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn them when they worked so hard to fix those issues and continued working when many other developers would have long since stopped. For that I must thank them instead, for turning what, for me at least, was an OK game into a great game and a potential waste into a cherished possesion. ( I'm SO going to be labled a fanboy for this sentence  ;D )


OK, now that I'm done waxing poetic, I hope you all enjoyed my little essay.  :P

Edited because I forgot to use the spell checker.  :-[
« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 05:05:18 am by FPF-Jem »
Capt. Jem


Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2004, 06:17:02 am »
My own opinion on the matter (not that anyone cares I'm sure but it's late and I'm bored  ;D) is that Taldren was among the better half of game developers by a fair margin. Certainly others are more outstanding (it did take quite a while to get to those final patches and there were some serious bugs in the initial releases) but far more were worse, much worse in many cases. Taldren at least stuck by the community by continuing to work on patches and tweaking balance far past what any person could reasonable expect of a Game developer.

As far as the arguments that everyone's attacking Harlequin just because he is professing a view that is critical of Taldren, I don't think so. Oh there is certainly disagreement with his view but I think some of Harlequins statements have rubbed people the wrong way, in particular I think Harlequins comparison of SFC to NWN and his subsequent dismissal of Dash Jones rejoinder that NWN had it's own quite serious problems on it's debut is really why many are taking his views on Taldren with a grain of salt. Especially his dismissal of the problems NWN had by arguing that they were only minor and affected a few people. Using similiar logic I could argue that the fact that most people who bought the game primarily played singleplayer(myself included) so the problems affecting the multiplayer side and the broken D2(a few thousand players, a minority compared to the number of sold copies) aren't that important. I'm sure most would think that to be completely silly of me to do so however. Also Harlequins statement to the effect that Bioware has always delivered in the end appears to be hypocritical to many posters who feel the same way about Taldren who did after all patch both EAW and OP to a very high state of polish. I'm sure Harlequin didn't have any ulterior motives other wanting to state his position and he has every right to do so, it's just some disagree with said position and they should be just as free to state their position and seek to debate the issues they disagree with in a calm manner with  Harlequin.
 
I don't know how many games the previous posters have purchased and played. I have a great number of games from almost as many developers. So I have quite a few experiences with seeing how the industry deals with after-release support. From my own experiences I have seen both the heights and the depths which this support can reach. Almost no game is ever released without at least of few bugs or balance issues of some type, it's just to hard to catch them all or test every possible combo of variables. In some games though they come really close and the game is quite playable, most people playing it will never notice in any problems. Other games are unplayable in the initial release and won't even work till the developer delivers the first patch or third or fourth(BC3000AD anyone?). While many view this delivery of shoddy products to be criminal and compare it to other industries where shoddy products can get the company sued, this really isn't the same for most software developers (much less game developers). This is due to the fact that for the most part shoddy software is just a nuisance and not a potentially life threatening flaw like sub-standard wiring in a building or tires that easily fall apart.

Just to give examples of my two extremes, Blizzard has a very good reputation for good solid games and justly so for the most part (though this may be changing of late due to internal issues). You can pick any one of their games and find it to be quite playable and have few problems right after install without having to go download a patch. Other worthy mentions gamewise are Total Annihilation which is also playable and the developer Cavedog released quite a few patches that added additional content to an already good game, as well as Half-life which also has a good history of strong support from it's developer. For especially bad examples, take a peak at the initial start of the Battlecruiser series by he who shall not be named, talk about shoddy games. Or another game called "Pirates of the Caribbean", this game was not only renamed by the publisher but also forced out 4-6 months before the developer wanted to release it just to coincide with the movie release. Many of the original content had to be scrapped and a new main story written at the last minute to have movie tie-ins. It was so hastily converted that it still had artifacts and artwork shipped on the release that was from what the game was originally that wasn't even used by the current game not to mention being buggy as hell. As for after release support, the publisher not only didn't allow a patch to be released but also shut down the forums for the game on their site a few weeks before the game shipped. The developer (based in Russia) had to resort to releasing a "unofficial mod" for the Russian version just to try to fix the game over there. Only the fact that the game has proved to be highly moddable and that the modders are able to fix many of the bugs themselves has saved the game from suffering an instant death on arrival.


So really, Taldren was not by any stretch that bad when it came to supporting it's games. While it might have been preferrable to have received the patches in a more timely fashion and for less bugs to have been present in the initial releases of it's games, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn them when they worked so hard to fix those issues and continued working when many other developers would have long since stopped. For that I must thank them instead, for turning what, for me at least, was an OK game into a great game and a potential waste into a cherished possesion. ( I'm SO going to be labled a fanboy for this sentence  ;D )


OK, now that I'm done waxing poetic, I hope you all enjoyed my little essay.  :P

Edited because I forgot to use the spell checker.  :-[

No Jem.  I would categorize you as a person who has missed the point.   Oh, lets not just accuse you.  I have been posting since 2000 in regards to this game... and it is quite a common state of affairs.   So in that regard you are indeed a FAN.  Join the horde. dwindleing as is.

Bioware survives becuase their game engine is well done.  They will produice DragonAge in one year...maybe...and it will use that same game engine.  Taldren rewrote their game engine three times.  Thats is the fact.  Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable.

And now you must learn not to bring up Derek Smart...for if you do you have lost your cause and will be forever a thousand times cursed.   :)....   D

 

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2004, 06:42:09 am »
My own opinion on the matter (not that anyone cares I'm sure but it's late and I'm bored  ;D) is that Taldren was among the better half of game developers by a fair margin. Certainly others are more outstanding (it did take quite a while to get to those final patches and there were some serious bugs in the initial releases) but far more were worse, much worse in many cases. Taldren at least stuck by the community by continuing to work on patches and tweaking balance far past what any person could reasonable expect of a Game developer.

As far as the arguments that everyone's attacking Harlequin just because he is professing a view that is critical of Taldren, I don't think so. Oh there is certainly disagreement with his view but I think some of Harlequins statements have rubbed people the wrong way, in particular I think Harlequins comparison of SFC to NWN and his subsequent dismissal of Dash Jones rejoinder that NWN had it's own quite serious problems on it's debut is really why many are taking his views on Taldren with a grain of salt. Especially his dismissal of the problems NWN had by arguing that they were only minor and affected a few people. Using similiar logic I could argue that the fact that most people who bought the game primarily played singleplayer(myself included) so the problems affecting the multiplayer side and the broken D2(a few thousand players, a minority compared to the number of sold copies) aren't that important. I'm sure most would think that to be completely silly of me to do so however. Also Harlequins statement to the effect that Bioware has always delivered in the end appears to be hypocritical to many posters who feel the same way about Taldren who did after all patch both EAW and OP to a very high state of polish. I'm sure Harlequin didn't have any ulterior motives other wanting to state his position and he has every right to do so, it's just some disagree with said position and they should be just as free to state their position and seek to debate the issues they disagree with in a calm manner with  Harlequin.
 
I don't know how many games the previous posters have purchased and played. I have a great number of games from almost as many developers. So I have quite a few experiences with seeing how the industry deals with after-release support. From my own experiences I have seen both the heights and the depths which this support can reach. Almost no game is ever released without at least of few bugs or balance issues of some type, it's just to hard to catch them all or test every possible combo of variables. In some games though they come really close and the game is quite playable, most people playing it will never notice in any problems. Other games are unplayable in the initial release and won't even work till the developer delivers the first patch or third or fourth(BC3000AD anyone?). While many view this delivery of shoddy products to be criminal and compare it to other industries where shoddy products can get the company sued, this really isn't the same for most software developers (much less game developers). This is due to the fact that for the most part shoddy software is just a nuisance and not a potentially life threatening flaw like sub-standard wiring in a building or tires that easily fall apart.

Just to give examples of my two extremes, Blizzard has a very good reputation for good solid games and justly so for the most part (though this may be changing of late due to internal issues). You can pick any one of their games and find it to be quite playable and have few problems right after install without having to go download a patch. Other worthy mentions gamewise are Total Annihilation which is also playable and the developer Cavedog released quite a few patches that added additional content to an already good game, as well as Half-life which also has a good history of strong support from it's developer. For especially bad examples, take a peak at the initial start of the Battlecruiser series by he who shall not be named, talk about shoddy games. Or another game called "Pirates of the Caribbean", this game was not only renamed by the publisher but also forced out 4-6 months before the developer wanted to release it just to coincide with the movie release. Many of the original content had to be scrapped and a new main story written at the last minute to have movie tie-ins. It was so hastily converted that it still had artifacts and artwork shipped on the release that was from what the game was originally that wasn't even used by the current game not to mention being buggy as hell. As for after release support, the publisher not only didn't allow a patch to be released but also shut down the forums for the game on their site a few weeks before the game shipped. The developer (based in Russia) had to resort to releasing a "unofficial mod" for the Russian version just to try to fix the game over there. Only the fact that the game has proved to be highly moddable and that the modders are able to fix many of the bugs themselves has saved the game from suffering an instant death on arrival.


So really, Taldren was not by any stretch that bad when it came to supporting it's games. While it might have been preferrable to have received the patches in a more timely fashion and for less bugs to have been present in the initial releases of it's games, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn them when they worked so hard to fix those issues and continued working when many other developers would have long since stopped. For that I must thank them instead, for turning what, for me at least, was an OK game into a great game and a potential waste into a cherished possesion. ( I'm SO going to be labled a fanboy for this sentence  ;D )


OK, now that I'm done waxing poetic, I hope you all enjoyed my little essay.  :P

Edited because I forgot to use the spell checker.  :-[

No Jem.  I would categorize you as a person who has missed the point.   Oh, lets not just accuse you.  I have been posting since 2000 in regards to this game... and it is quite a common state of affairs.   So in that regard you are indeed a FAN.  Join the horde. dwindleing as is.

Bioware survives becuase their game engine is well done.  They will produice DragonAge in one year...maybe...and it will use that same game engine.  Taldren rewrote their game engine three times.  Thats is the fact.  Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable.   If you don't want to be fashionable just go back and reread Harlequin's post.

And now you must learn not to bring up Derek Smart...for if you do you have lost your cause and will be forever a thousand times cursed.   :)...

uhh inside joke...sorry...

However I will not commit the same sin and miss your point.   (Even if you didn't quite say it).  The demise of this game had nothing to do with Taldrens competence or otherwise, but rather the legal problems surrounding  all intellectual property known as STAR TREK.   Those problems must be surmouinted to continue the game in it's next iteration I would think.  Sure Taldren worked hard to fix the bugs...they had a reputation to mend and at that time hopes of continueing their existence here in the states.

But let's just say Taldren had been more competent; what would that mean?

It would mean that we would have another two or three hundred people here on this forum, trying to figure out what we will do with the code once it is released.




Offline FPF-Jem

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2004, 07:17:41 am »
Yep, I'm definitely a fan of the game as far as it goes. I'm ship crazy, whether it be a spaceship or an oceangoing ship of the line so any game with ships in it is guaranteed to get at least a glance from me and the fact that SFC1, 2, and OP all focused on the TMP era of Star Trek which is far and away my favorite era is icing on the cake.  :)

Been playing the games ever since shortly after SFC1 came out. Haven't ever had any problems with them, but like I mentioned I primarily played singleplayer, especially back then, and only lurked on the taldren boards on and off for 3 years before I finally started posting. So I know a good portion of the Taldren boards History, though I do have some large gaps from those off periods. Including some of the he who shall not be mentioned stuff.  ;D

As for missing the point, undoubtedly, I do it all the time unfortunately. To easily drawn off subject I suppose, not to mention going off on complete tangents and trying to make sure I don't say anything which will give anyone serious cause for complaint that what comes out is incredibly vague.  :-[

Beside, making the post achieved it's goal of giving me something to do and think on for half an hour.  ;D
Capt. Jem


Offline FPF-Jem

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2004, 07:48:48 am »
As far as being a Fan of Taldren though, depends on what you mean by Fan. By Nature I'm inclined to see the best in people and organisations, and give them the benefit of the doubt. As well as endeavoring to be polite to everyone I can, (I'm even polite to telemarketers and am willing to listen to their full sales pitch before I'll say anything). So unless someone does something completely out of the pale then I'm inclined to be forgiving of quite a bit. I felt Taldren has done a reasonable job so far as most of it's games (by my admitably lax standards) go so I'm inclined with a favorable opinion. However I'm not one to go for brand name anything, my decision will always fall on whether I like the look/feel/taste/whatever of each individual product. Let it stand or fall on it's own merits.

I am not enamoured of everything Taldren, I thought their last game SFC3 was just average. Could of been a lot better I felt, too little substance, and it falls into the category of about 2/3rds of the games I own. That of interesting idea but not worth spending too much time on and of the "uninstall first if I need the space" pile. Ultimately just not my cup of tea.

Though I will admit I've never played SFC3 online so to be perfectly fair I have to try that before I render Full judgement, though initial trials indicate that it's going to be even worse than I thought possible.
Capt. Jem


Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2004, 10:16:51 am »
....

So Harlequin speaks the truth.   If one doesn't like the truth it's their choice to ignore it; close your eyes and tap your heels together three times  (Presto!  He is now a negative personality!)...negativity exists as well as positive things.  And sometimes they are imbalanced.   Sometimes it's good and proper to be pissed off.  There were lessons to be learned from what happened at taldren and SFC2.  They should not be ignored.  Taldren started as a company that seemed to be confused and lacking in programming talent to interpet SFC2 from SFC1.   Those programmers learned their trade over time but in this business "there is a tide in the affairs of men"...and it was too late.

...




Rondo_GE,

No, Harlequin has recounted events, and added an opinion.
Simple truth,....

there are single-player "people",
there are multi-player "people",


and there are the 3d starship modellers, and game modders,

If you are a single player person, one does not really have a problem to the same extent,
if one is a multi-player,

one had to be patient with the patches,

Not that the patches were only for the multi-player function, it is that the multi-player needed more extensive patching,


Thing is, you blokes had a game to patch,.
if one follows Harlequins route, one may not of had ANY GAME AT ALL,.

Food-for-thought,...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 10:21:53 am by AgentSloan »

Offline FPF-Jem

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2004, 02:57:16 pm »
 Taldren rewrote their game engine three times.  Thats is the fact.  Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable.   If you don't want to be fashionable just go back and reread Harlequin's post.


Hmm, somehow I missed this the first and second time reading through the posts. Which now that I think about it, isn't surprising, it was 5:00 in the morning when I read them.  :)

What do you mean by this? Is the rewriting of their Engine somehow indicative of failure? I certainly don't see it that way since as I said, I've never had any serious problems with the game (other than that memory leak after playing the singleplayer campaigns for a while but they fixed that pretty quick, patch 2005 I think, so it wasn't a big deal for me). A lot of game developers (if not most) update/add-features/change their game engines between games.

Harlequins point is that Taldren failed for delivering buggy and poorly implemented games, dishonest business practices, and taking forever to fix their games and so their closing of their offices should not have come to a surprise to anyone. I disagree in that in MY experience I did not find those games poorly implemented, or that they took forever to patch their games to a smooth finish (after they patched the memory leak I stopped checking for new patches for at least a year, perhaps longer, when I did check they were up to 2030), or that they were terribly buggy, or even that Taldren had behaved especially dishonest, in MY experience being the keywords.

However I'm sure others have had different experiences which will have colored their opinions differently from mine. Each experience is undoubtedly unique. "Facts" can be put forward all day long but ultimately most of those "facts" are open to interpretation. This is a discussision board so we should be able to put our opinions up for discussion, just realizing that those opinions WILL be discussed with by others and not always agreed with. When you get down to it, that's part of the fun.  :)


Edited for some obvious spelling and grammer errors  :-[
« Last Edit: July 05, 2004, 04:02:57 pm by FPF-Jem »
Capt. Jem


Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2004, 03:56:41 pm »
Quote
This is a discussision board so we should be able to put are opinions up for discussion, just realizing that those opinions WILL be discussed with by others and not always agreed with. When you get down to it, that's part of the fun.

Preach on!  ;D

Offline RazalYllib

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2004, 07:05:34 pm »
mmm lets turn the wayback machine to a period of time several months  pre-sfc2 release for those who were not here.

All the following information, was at one time posted openly in the past btw, and I dint feel like dishonoring myself for breaking NDA.

WON pulls the plug on HOST the already existing DV.  Much of that code was married to networking code in the client.  WON had just been purchased by another entity and decided On-Line Gaming was not a good use of its bandwidth or server capacity. 

The server and network code had to be "re-written" on the fly to meet deadline imposed by publisher.  IIRC even Harry Lang (Paramount Liason) was sympathetic to the situation.  Prior to that, there was no plan to even make the server package public so a private individual or group could create an independent DV.  This unseen DV Server apparently was coded to work w/ robust Proprietary API (now owned by the new owners of WON btw) and perhaps could have supported many more players.  Other features were to be included that probably were tested, the black rectangle box in the DV was supposed to be the ad server out put,  there was supposed to be a separate PvP meeting place where players could interact and not affect the DV much like gamespy is now.  Gamespy stepped up to plate and volunteered to host a player matching service integrated to the game after WON's new owners walked away.  I tip my hat to them for that.

Taldren just drove on trying to do the best they could considering their situation.  As for the patching, they are a Company, they have debts, payroll etc...have to keep the lights and plumbing going too and in CA, that can get pretty expensive, so expensive they have to move to Korea to keep working.  We may not all agree on how Taldren initially patched SFC1--->3, or in what order our favorite nemesis bugs were squashed, but through the extreme efforts of Taldren Staff and other "Non-Compensated" individuals on their own time, many many BUGS have been dealt with.  David Farrell, Ken Yeast from Taldren especially...KMag, Firesoul, Bonk (sql blobs-nuff said ((sql potential for SFC is so intoxicating its hard to think sometimes)), and others I can not think of right off the bat...but you know who U R.

I am eternally grateful for the gift of SFC, I will continue until the Romulan Empire is the dominant Species in the Entire Universe !

That aside, I like NWN, but there are things I wish were done differently.  Given the massive budget NWN had during development, There were comparatively few bugs on initial release, but like all gaming software, a patch or two is mandatory.  But Kudos to BioWare, I look forward to partaking of their offerings in the future, but I do no think their CEO would eat dirt for failing to meet a deadline promised to bunch of fans.  That unique action by Mr Eric Bethke, sets Taldren apart from every one else.  Though the Microwave he sterilized it in seemed to me be a bit more toxic that the dixie cup of dirt.
Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
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Don't give it up
You got an empty cup
Only love can fill
Only love can fill

Offline Elvis

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2004, 07:14:02 pm »
I agree with Agent Sloan, as a fan I wanted the game, having the game released in the condition it was in was preferable to having no game whatsoever.

After reading some posts on ToastyO's forums I'm further reminded that money doesn't grow on trees.

I understand that the game released as "was" was frustrasting for potential fans, which puished it even further into its niche. Doing OP wasn' t abiout abandoning EAW, it was about staying in business, which allowed the further patching of EAW. I understand that Taldren had a multigame contract with IP that because of IPs financial status wasn't going to be honored, and I don't think OP was actually part of that contract. From what I gather OP was a "gimme" to Taldren, without OP they would have been bust,(IP also needed the dollars) That "gimme" allowed Taldren the time to sell Activision on SFC3 or find any other deal they could to keep them afloat.

I found the posts on ToastyO's forum to be revealing, but it is not my intention to bring that discusion here, just that arm chair quarterbacking is frustrating and requires alot of assuming.

And we all know about ass u m(e) ing.

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2004, 02:38:11 am »
 Taldren rewrote their game engine three times.  Thats is the fact.  Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable.   If you don't want to be fashionable just go back and reread Harlequin's post.


Hmm, somehow I missed this the first and second time reading through the posts. Which now that I think about it, isn't surprising, it was 5:00 in the morning when I read them.  :)

What do you mean by this? Is the rewriting of their Engine somehow indicative of failure? I certainly don't see it that way since as I said, I've never had any serious problems with the game (other than that memory leak after playing the singleplayer campaigns for a while but they fixed that pretty quick, patch 2005 I think, so it wasn't a big deal for me). A lot of game developers (if not most) update/add-features/change their game engines between games.

Harlequins point is that Taldren failed for delivering buggy and poorly implemented games, dishonest business practices, and taking forever to fix their games and so their closing of their offices should not have come to a surprise to anyone. I disagree in that in MY experience I did not find those games poorly implemented, or that they took forever to patch their games to a smooth finish (after they patched the memory leak I stopped checking for new patches for at least a year, perhaps longer, when I did check they were up to 2030), or that they were terribly buggy, or even that Taldren had behaved especially dishonest, in MY experience being the keywords.

However I'm sure others have had different experiences which will have colored their opinions differently from mine. Each experience is undoubtedly unique. "Facts" can be put forward all day long but ultimately most of those "facts" are open to interpretation. This is a discussision board so we should be able to put our opinions up for discussion, just realizing that those opinions WILL be discussed with by others and not always agreed with. When you get down to it, that's part of the fun.  :)


Edited for some obvious spelling and grammer errors  :-[

Well obviously we have two different ideas as to what constitutes a serious flaw.  However when someone advertises that a certain feature is to be included in a game, or anything else for that matter, and it is not there when people go to buy it...yes...I would consider that major enough for me to  be talking to my lawyers and scrambling around to get it fixed or included.   I think it was serious because almost every pre-release review or advertisement of the game cited it as a major feature of the game.  But you stated you didn't care to play the Dyna so I suppose you won't concede that was a major problem with the game.   

Anyway I will concede that my statement about Taldren rewriting their game engine three times is inaccurate.  SFC1 belonged to 14 Points East and Taldren rewrote the game engine in SFC2.   SFC OP was the basis for SFC3 and as such SFC3 is not a new game engine, just a reconceptualization of the game using the same engine.   

However the real break point came between  SFC2 and SFC OP.  SFC OP was supposed to be an "expansion" of SFC2 but in actuality it was an entirely new game with a new game engine.  From every account I have read Taldren decided to rewrite the code because they fealt that SFC2 had too many problems that would continue on unless they rewrote it.  To me that is an admission of failure of sorts.    I know it had a negative effect on the community and sales because many did not want to buy an entirely new gawe when they were promised an expansion, even thought, but my lights, they were getting more for their money.  (IMHO)   

Offline Wildcard

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2004, 03:59:12 am »
As I sat here and painfully read this thread, I was inclined to agree with some and disagree with others. Point blank..... You cannot make a copy of a copy of a copy and expect it to keep selling. I find that in the absence of Trek gaming when something finally appears we shoot right for it and will almost accept anything in it's absence. It is like leadership, People want to be lead they beg for it and in the absence of it they will believe anything that they hear. What the problem is with Trek gaming is quitw simple actually, NO IMMAGINATION. For Activision and Paramount to be into a legal battle bercause of lack of Trek is redicilious. Paramount should be sueing Activision for lack of Imagination. So orders come down, assignments given, And we get a copy of a copy of a copy........... Anyone who knows SFC series knows this, SFC III was not ready at all, But Nemises was and poof we go from a 8 race playable, or something like that to a 4 race playable. I do not call that an improvement. While I was modding SFC III creating The Near Distant Future I discovered in the strings discriptions for all sorts of things not in the game, Scatterpacks, Missles, wildweasels, phaser and disruptor 15's, If you look you will find all sorts of cool stuff that didnt get added because THEY needed to meet a deadline, The allmighty dollar ruled the day and the people making the game were not allowed to finish it. Point blank and simple. Instead of getting better we got worse and paid more for less. But since we all think the Trek gaming will never happen again we try to save what we have and that is all and good, But why arent we trying to get someone to create a whole different game? Why dosent someone build a real game. If I had the millions that it probably would take to buy the rights you would not have to worry about Trek gaming until I died. I have more imagination than anyone here. Why do we have to play 2D games and worship them? What ever happened to 3D? Whay cant we get a game crossed between Bridge Commander, Starfleet Command, and Elite Force? That would take talent. Mabey we dont have the talent here to create such a complex piece of work or the vision to make it happen. We would rather get SFC IV which would be a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, And only have 1 playable race. But fret not you will get a patch that gives you back the heavy weapons.

Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2004, 05:32:53 am »
Actually I don't think there was a plan to have more than 4 playable races in SFC3, but the Cardassians and other races were meant to be in the game as non-player races for you to interact with.  The reason you found a lot of the other stuff is that it was leftovers from when they ported everything over from OP.  It just wasn't removed.  In addition there is probably, if I remember, a whole ton of stuff that they just slap in for the future (planning ahead for potential expansions, etc.  Like OP having lines for Andromedans and Tholians, and the like). 

Quote
I have more imagination than anyone here...

My, my.  What a bold statement.  Obviously you have missed the myriad of threads discussing what could be done for the future, the call for a 3d game, the desire to have a game that would be a combination of Bridgecommander, SFC, and games like Freelancer, for a game with dynamic imperial economics, and so many other things that we don't have.  Personally I couldn't care less if it's SFB based, but it's got to have enough content and depth to keep me interested in the game and believing in the fiction that it portrays something the last iteration failed at miserably for me (and I did play it for a long time as I was in the beta testing group for it, and messed around with modding it quite a bit trying to get something interesting out of it, although I do toy with doing a tall ships mod for 3).

As far as rushing it out, didn't they get an extension or two after missing deadlines for each project?  There comes a time when it's just got to come out though.  3 certainly had the best release of any of the others as far as bugs and functionality, it just lacked content.  Erik said it had it had the longest dev time of any SFC, and in some cases 2 projects altogether (I would assume 2 and OP on that last part), and they recieved the best deal on it too, so given that and the fact that they were basing it on a previous engine, shouldn't there have been a bit more content in there somewhere?  A little more depth, or at the very least a little more moddability?  Yeah, it had more than the previous ones, but you certainly can't make complete mods like you can with many other games.  In the end it's all down to the "Oh, well" file at this point, as the Dev is gone, no Trek licenses are in play, and the company that owns the SFC name isn't too likely to do anymore Trek games since they are sueing Paramount/Viacom.  You never know though.

Offline Whoo

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2004, 07:50:26 am »
I have nothing bad to say about Taldren.
SFC is the soul reason I play on-line games, starting back at the beginning of SFC1.
Starfleet Command is nothing more than an expired title, born based upon SFB and now dying during SFC3.
Its not the game, its not the developers, its simply the nature of the beast.

Welcome to a new era MMORPG and Playstation.
Taldren, I am sorry to see you go, the only thing I feel held you back was probably the restrictions set by Paramount, certainly not by lack of vision.

I think someone in here said it best, "The big boys have taken over" and its a shame, because brilliant concepts and ideas are going to be lost in favor of mass production.

We are probably witnessing the end of the sleeper game...
I had a sig, but the dog ate it.

Offline EmeraldEdge

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2004, 08:15:00 am »
They will always come back for a short stint though even if they are "gone".  After all, every so often a small independent film takes hold in Hollywood and a short burst of little indie films comes out (and then the studios figure out a way to get in on it and form their own "indie" labels, lol.  But the small guys are still out there giving it their best, tryin' to make it and occassionally producing something pretty darn good.  Many articles are written comparing the film industry to the game industry, and if they are as similar as some hope, then we'll see folks pop their heads up everyonce in a while and walk amongst the giants, and maybe a few folks from that which was will be amongst them.

Offline AgentSloan

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2004, 03:19:40 pm »
Rondo_GE,

No, they are not disagreeing about "what constitutes a major flaw",
the point is that Taldren got the game out with "it",....

The other option most likely would have been no game at all,


<snip>

Well obviously we have two different ideas as to what constitutes a serious flaw.  However when someone advertises that a certain feature is to be included in a game, or anything else for that matter, and it is not there when people go to buy it...yes...I would consider that major enough for me to  be talking to my lawyers and scrambling around to get it fixed or included.   I think it was serious because almost every pre-release review or advertisement of the game cited it as a major feature of the game.  But you stated you didn't care to play the Dyna so I suppose you won't concede that was a major problem with the game.   
   

I for one, am very happy SFC II: EAW got released,
I love the game,


AgentSloan

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2004, 03:28:00 pm »
I have nothing bad to say about Taldren.
SFC is the soul reason I play on-line games, starting back at the beginning of SFC1.
Starfleet Command is nothing more than an expired title, born based upon SFB and now dying during SFC3.
Its not the game, its not the developers, its simply the nature of the beast.

Welcome to a new era MMORPG and Playstation.
Taldren, I am sorry to see you go, the only thing I feel held you back was probably the restrictions set by Paramount, certainly not by lack of vision.

I think someone in here said it best, "The big boys have taken over" and its a shame, because brilliant concepts and ideas are going to be lost in favor of mass production.

We are probably witnessing the end of the sleeper game...

I was actually paraphrasing Eric Bethke.  Y'know what Taldren could have become is another topic I suppose but perhaps it can be included here.

I think after they had produced SFC OP they had pretty much gotten their act together.  It seems to me that SFC2 taught them many things and they were producing cleaner code and listening more intently (in a more baanced kind of way).        

Unfortunately their future performance will never be known.  SFC3 obscures what they could have been because the artistic controls were set in place by people who really didn't appreciate the kind of game we had in place already, and I don't think they were from Taldren.

Sleeper games may still have a role in the future.   But they will have to be produced by communities that value the product.  That's going to be a  hard thing to do.

Offline Age

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #108 on: July 06, 2004, 05:28:15 pm »
I have nothing bad to say about Taldren.
SFC is the soul reason I play on-line games, starting back at the beginning of SFC1.
Starfleet Command is nothing more than an expired title, born based upon SFB and now dying during SFC3.
Its not the game, its not the developers, its simply the nature of the beast.

Welcome to a new era MMORPG and Playstation.
Taldren, I am sorry to see you go, the only thing I feel held you back was probably the restrictions set by Paramount, certainly not by lack of vision.

I think someone in here said it best, "The big boys have taken over" and its a shame, because brilliant concepts and ideas are going to be lost in favor of mass production.

We are probably witnessing the end of the sleeper game...
What is MMORPG?  If Paramount would let PC game rental at their Blockbuster stores this would help the PC game market out.

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #109 on: July 06, 2004, 05:43:05 pm »
Quote
...the black rectangle box in the DV was supposed to be the ad server out put...

Whoah! That was a close one! I would have bailed immediately never to return... I'm soooo glad that did not happen.

Offline RazalYllib

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2004, 08:09:14 pm »
Yeah Bonk, thats what I though at first, as I thought about it for awhile, then it made perfect sense (expressed in dollars and cents, pounds shillings and pence)

$$$ generated by ads needed to fund Server Time and Bandwidth, plus provided revenue stream to fund further content creation (ie full time scripting team to keep things lively) and provide the tools to free themselves as "content creators and providers" from the shackles that binds them to idiotic publishers, which an example company starts with the letter A...

I feel that watching ads flick by is a small price to pay for 1k+ capacity server for free.  This underlying philosophy is resonant to me.  I have a pretty good idea of what was happening behind closed doors from rather shocking revelations on ToastyO forums. 

It seems to me that Taldren got shafted and manipulated by forces beyond their control, into making unpleasant decisions by their "employers".  If I was moderately wealthy, I would pay every one who has not been sufficiently compensated, with interest and bonus for not going entirely insane after every thing they endured.  IMVHO- David would get double bonus....for just being there and listening to us long time testers gripe and moan about this that and the other for weeks at time and still kept at it. 

The only outstanding negative thing about the whole experience is EmeraldEdge's ban.  I wish David and EmeraldEdge would go off in a corner somewhere, and clear the air, kiss and make up as it were (no tongues though) and lets move on...that was then and we are on our own, with out a net.  And with the potential in source code release (server kit at a minimum)

We as a community will go where no one has gone before- has a nice ring to it eh

Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says "don't you see?"
Gotta make it somehow
On the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up
You got an empty cup
Only love can fill
Only love can fill

Offline Bonk

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #111 on: July 06, 2004, 09:35:23 pm »
Nice to see another Rog fan...  8)

I guess if we'd had that kind of player capacity, I'd certainly prefer ads to pay to play. I wasn't really thinking of the possibility of greater server capacity. (WON api/ Openskies SDK..?)

Quote
We as a community will go where no one has gone before- has a nice ring to it eh

Indeed Sir, it does indeed...

Offline RazalYllib

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #112 on: July 06, 2004, 10:10:47 pm »
Nice to see another Rog fan...  8)

I guess if we'd had that kind of player capacity, I'd certainly prefer ads to pay to play. I wasn't really thinking of the possibility of greater server capacity. (WON api/ Openskies SDK..?)

Quote
We as a community will go where no one has gone before- has a nice ring to it eh

Indeed Sir, it does indeed...

Ole Rog and me go way back...before I got on the bus

Just picked up the reissue of the Final Cut w/ Tigers broke Free where it should have been the first time around..
Also a boot (?) Flickering Flame w/ odd tracks including live Roger doing Knocking on Heavens Door -awesome, everyone winds up covering ole Mr Bob Dylan   :)
Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says "don't you see?"
Gotta make it somehow
On the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up
You got an empty cup
Only love can fill
Only love can fill

Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #113 on: July 06, 2004, 11:05:15 pm »
Yeah Bonk, thats what I though at first, as I thought about it for awhile, then it made perfect sense (expressed in dollars and cents, pounds shillings and pence)

$$$ generated by ads needed to fund Server Time and Bandwidth, plus provided revenue stream to fund further content creation (ie full time scripting team to keep things lively) and provide the tools to free themselves as "content creators and providers" from the shackles that binds them to idiotic publishers, which an example company starts with the letter A...

I feel that watching ads flick by is a small price to pay for 1k+ capacity server for free.  This underlying philosophy is resonant to me.  I have a pretty good idea of what was happening behind closed doors from rather shocking revelations on ToastyO forums. 



You are assuming a lot if you think that Activision would have used that money to give us anything. In today's big business climate that money would have gone directly into their pockets, IMO. Taldren? Maybe a different story though. If it was up to them, and they could afford it. Obviously, they needed more money than they got. Something like that might have helped them out.

As far as "pay to play". DON'T BUY THE GAMES AND THEY'LL STOP MAKING THEM. Please! It's just another way for them to bleed us. Unless the price is very reasonable and obviously to maintain the system. SFBOL's $40.00 annual fee with free software, comes to mind as a reasonable one.
These monthly schemes are rediculous though. You pay $50.00 for a game that you can't even play unless you subscribe to a monthly fee that competes with a cell phone rate or a basic cable bill. Companies already make a nice profit from the software sales. They've supplied us with free servers just fine. They don't need to charge us for one now.
The only gaming companies that are hurting are the ones who can't come up with a game that people want to play. I'm talking about producers here, not Developers. Unless they are one in the same.
If Romulans aren't cowards, then why do they taste like chicken?

762_XC

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2004, 12:12:45 pm »
Harle, welcome back, it's been a long time.

Did you ever develop that game?

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #115 on: July 08, 2004, 06:38:25 pm »
> To answer your question...he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about.

Since I bought NWN the first few days it hit shelves, ran a nwn server and became quite skilled at adding new content I'd say I am well versed in NWN. Did you run a persistent world using nwn's server?

>  It is actually quite applicable to SFC 2 however, except NWN was even a bigger nightmare.  There were some idiots even tossing around lawsuits...however...they were idiots.

The bottom line did the game for MOST people play out of the box? Yes. Is the same true for SFC2? No.

Did bioware put out patches with new content and fixes in a timely manor? Yes. Did Taldren? No.

Did bioware fix all major bugs within the first few months of release with several patches? Yes. did Bioware? No, nor did they ever get it working to a acceptable condition as even with the latest patches it crashes to desktop and multi-play has issues.

Can you currently play nwn, without any expansions. Yes.(And they still patch and add content to the orginial game even if you dont have any expantions.)

So yes I hold bioware in higher standing then taldren. If any of the above is not accurate then please feel free to point it out. It has nothing to do with bias, it has everything to do with simple performance. Bioware ran circles around taldren on this level, period.

I never said nwn did not have bugs/issues, of course it did. But I was able to play it strait though without one crash. (server aside out of the box, as after a few hrs i'd crash due to a memory leak, but they have since patched it long ago)

Also patch 1.62 for nwn is just around the corner with added content and more fixes and tweaks. Whens the next sfc patch/new content coming out?

A low blow? perhaps, but it makes my point.


Offline Sirgod

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2004, 06:59:10 pm »
I like Bioware also. htey also Had More Money in there Budget. How Many Patches have they for Free?

Stephen
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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #117 on: July 08, 2004, 07:24:12 pm »
And now....Dancing spam!
  :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: THE FINAL THOUGHT THAT NEVER ENDS, IT JUST GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS! :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam:

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2004, 02:25:54 am »
And now....Dancing spam!
  :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: THE FINAL THOUGHT THAT NEVER ENDS, IT JUST GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS! :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam:

Pushing "Abort Hijack Thread Attempt" button.

bump.

Offline Harlequin

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2004, 06:26:35 pm »
I like Bioware also. htey also Had More Money in there Budget. How Many Patches have they for Free?

Stephen

They MIGHT have we will never know, those numbers are kept hidden from the general public. But certainly there was adversity. bio switching publishers from interplay to atari. Tho I will agree taldren had a fair amount of rangling to do themsevles, with all the licence issues of sfb/sfc

All there patches are free, As I am pretty sure most all other game devs are as well I am not sure your point..?

Offline Sirgod

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2004, 08:08:03 am »
I like Bioware also. htey also Had More Money in there Budget. How Many Patches have they for Free?

Stephen

They MIGHT have we will never know, those numbers are kept hidden from the general public. But certainly there was adversity. bio switching publishers from interplay to atari. Tho I will agree taldren had a fair amount of rangling to do themsevles, with all the licence issues of sfb/sfc

All there patches are free, As I am pretty sure most all other game devs are as well I am not sure your point..?

I Misspoke there. I meant they where paid for there Patch work. Taldren wasn't but did so anyway.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2004, 09:49:35 am »
Hmm, Well...

I was one of those that had a problem with NWN in that it deposed a computer...could I verify it was NWN...other than hearing others (very few, but you know) complain of it, no...because all evidence was erased in the processs!

I had two computers that it went kaput on (AMD Athlons at 1.8 gigs, 512 MB RAM, ATI AIW 7500's, 80 gig and 100 gig Har Drives, 40x CD/RW) and it wasnt' because they were behind the curve (though I am an Nvidia fan and could attribute it to the ATI cards...which some did, many would call Bioware evil from the run in with ATI in the release).  I'd boot it up and just got a black screen on those when the game was released up until patch 1.21, and the instance recurred on patch 1.27 on until SoA came out for those.

I had another computer with the jerky and no shiny water on.  Most of these were not unknown, and many attributed them to ATI cards, or older systems...seeing my systems were top of the line at that time...

On the otherhand...just to counter the interesting item...SFC1 ran out of the box for me, AND I've NEVER had a problem running it...my release I believe is 1.0 remarkably...

In otherwords...just because one has never had problems...shows arrogance to remark that this means there were very few problems for others on the game's release.

Take Dominion Wars...very buggy game.  I didn't have problems, but I would rank it as one of the buggier releases.

Bioware does keep making patches...BUT

It's because they have not been court ordered to stop and legally bound not to...

It's also because they have the money to spend on it currently...as they have work...

Taldren continued to supply patches...and even put in a system to continue putting out patches for some of the SFC games when they didn't had other work they were trying to get done...

I like Bioware...but I don't let my fanboi'ness hide the truth of things.  I am glad that Bioware has gotten NWN to work better, but they weren't the best in the campaign with the first release (you DO remember all the complaints about the official campaign...don't you)...the best thing NWN is good for is because one can create their own material and their own modules and adventures from it...I love it for that.
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Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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Offline Patchfur

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« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2004, 02:16:25 pm »
Hello, been a while since I look in around here.

I figured I would drop by and see what is up.  Saw Harle's post and could not help myself.  I agree with his points completely, but I feel that there is another reason why people voted with their feet on the sequence of games. 

As Taldren strayed further and further from the one true guiding light of SFB, the faithful could not find the path, strayed, and became lost.  Those who have eyes should see, those who have ears should hear.  I say unto you:  this is a just punishment for a lost people who have turned their backs on the source of their joy!

Just look at what has become of the J series!  An entire section of SFB scripture blasphemed.

But I have faith!  I believe!  One day, a saviour will come.  One who will fulfill the prophecy!  After a time wandering in the wilderness, we will be saved by a PC game that is faithful to SFB scripture.  And all will be well in heaven and on planet.

Offline kadh2000

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Re: A final thought on Taldren
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2004, 08:25:09 pm »
Now I'm dizzy.  I really liked SFC1 and 2.  Both ran perfectly out of the box for me.  It was deep into the patches before I could play SFC3.  I never did get around to finishing it.  I mean I bought the game, waited six months to install it because I figured it would take that long for a patch and it still didn't work.

I have to say I really thought Taldren went astray when they moved away from SFB /TOS (loosely anyway) to TNG.
"The Andromedans," Kadh said, "will never stop coming.  Not until they are all destroyed or we are."