Topic: What was Nanner trying to say? (Read 17517 times)

Byzantine · « **on:** August 01, 2004, 01:01:13 am »

Honestly, I am not sure. But I have an idea so I will toss it out here.

Grognard: hard core gamer who likes complexity and does not mind dealing with steep learning curves or long playing time.

Beer & Pretzel: part time gamer who has no interest and/or time for deep complexity, long playing time, or steep learning curve.

As you might guess people at the extremes of this spectrum have little in common and often do not even respect each other when it comes to gaming. For the great majority who live somewhere in the middle it is fun to beat yourself up with a Grognard game for a bit and then go relax with a Beer & Pretzel game for an hour or two the next day.

SFB IS a Grognard game. SFC2 is pretty much the same thing by computer game standards. In the real world Grognards make up maybe 30-40% of the player base at most. I think SFC3 was meant to exist in the middle of the spectrum and draw in more B&P players. It was a financial decision that probably did not work out right. Perhaps because it is in the middle and not B&P enough. Or maybe true Trek types lean toward grognard anyway.

Now. My thought on Nanners point.
Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it. But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game. Well. There it is. If you say the game is inferior you are pretty much saying the people who play it are inferior.

Is this anything near what Nanner was trying to get across? Maybe Nanner will pop in and clarify.

I think it was DieHard who called SFC2 & 3 apples and oranges? More like lemons and limes I think. I am not offering any solutions here. As they say, I'm just looking for a little clarity on the issue.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:18:00 am »

in a word, yes.

i was trying to get people to realize that a segment of the sfc community does not feel welcome here and i was hoping to open up a dialogue and get people to make stretch a hand out in good faith for all parts of the community to unite. like it or not, the community is fading - especially with no taldren support. that is one of the reasons d.net was created and taldren provided d.net with the directory servers (d2 at this point).. so we can all have a place.

thats it, nothing complex. my effort didnt seem to work. i just hope people learn before its too late.

thank you, for what its worth, to try and decipher the thread and my intentions.

Cleaven · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:23:54 am »

Quote from: Byzantine on August 01, 2004, 01:01:13 am

Now. My thought on Nanners point.
Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it. But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game. Well. There it is. If you say the game is inferior you are pretty much saying the people who play it are inferior.

If I say that SFC1 is an inferior game because it is missing things that SFC2 has which make it a better game I don't expect the SFC1 players to get insulted, take their bat and ball and go home. I expect them to say "be that as it may, I play SFC1".

Now if there are people who only play SFC:TNG and can't handle the fact that there are things missing from SFC:TNG which are in SFC2, and that there are players who like those things, well too bad. Nothing can be done about that because if those things are missing, well they are missing and that's it.

On the other hand there are also people who will claim SFC:TNG is an inferior game simply because the gameplay is bad. I fall into this category, but how many other people are there who bought SFC:TNG, decided the gameplay was bad and all without any reference to SFC2. The point is you don't have to know anything about SFC2 (or SFB) to be able to say " I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game.

Now if there are so many insulted SFC:TNG players out there, why don't they go and raz the huge majority of people who don't play the inferior SFC:TNG anymore, instead of just those who are still SFC2 players? There must be a lot more of them to get mad with, then just us few SFC2 players

FVA_C_ Blade_ XC · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:34:58 am »

Methinks the point Sluggy was trying to make is that if you don't like something there is no real need for you to bash it.

Just don't play it,no need to make the people who play the game feel unwelcome or left out of the community.

Khalee · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:43:10 am »

Well what he was really saying is KERRY 2004 VOTE FOR KERRY!!!!!!

Cleaven · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:44:51 am »

And the reverse must surely apply too?

I don't need to be called a stupid SFB'er because I don't like a non-SFB based game. Did I mention I like Napoleonic miniature wargaming (far removed from SFB). I'd much rather be abused as an SFC:TNG hater because I'm a stupid British Napoleon's Battles player and I use cannon (note spelling).

FVA_C_ Blade_ XC · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:48:41 am »

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 01:44:51 am

And the reverse must surely apply too?

I don't need to be called a stupid SFB'er because I don't like a non-SFB based game. Did I mention I like Napoleonic miniature wargaming (far removed from SFB). I'd much rather be abused as an SFC:TNG hater because I'm a stupid British Napoleon's Battles player and I use cannon (note spelling).

Yep,and until both sides see that,it will keep going on.

Chris SI · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:52:50 am »

What is the point of arguing which game is better?

I don't see it, personally, I didn't like SFC 3 because I hate cloaked ships, and they left too much out I thought, like Cardassians and the Dominion war.

SFC 2 I like better, also because for me anyway, the game is a little quicker, ships seem hard to destroy in 3. 3 does have a huge selling point, in that you can buy ship upgrades, I liked that alot.

Hyperion · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:22:07 am »

You had me right up until this:

Quote

Now. My thought on Nanners point.
Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it. But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game. Well. There it is. If you say the game is inferior you are pretty much saying the people who play it are inferior.

This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that thiskind of blanket statement is made.

Durin · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:43:29 am »

From what I can tell it hasn't anyting to do with SFC3 at all. It the attitudes, the manner in which they conduct themselves that are giving them the bad rap. Prime example would be Water Tiger.

Hell I'm in a fleet that for the most part has moved on to SFC3 I and a coupe of others still play OP... guess what.. I don't have a problem with that..

we all shake to a different groove.. we can still be friends.

Reptor · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2004, 11:06:36 am »

I've been following this with interest and decided to chime in. I've reinstalled and patched & modded up SFC3 recently. It felt good flying it again, but a few days later I ended up going back to OP with SFC3 getting uninstalled once again.

Now, a SFC3 advocate reading what I just posted sees it as a slam. If I included the reason why I switched back to OP, the SFC3 advocate would see it as a flame, when in essence it's just a statement on a preference for a particular version.

I can see the SFC3 crowd's defensive nature every time they read something like that though as the 2 camps view both games with different eyes. SFC3 is a fine game. Yet in saying that, I have OP installed instead of SFC3 as I prefer it.

No idea what the answer is. It's difficult to build a bridge between 2 completely different communities. Just respect the other guy/gal across the gap, I guess.

FPF-DieHard · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2004, 11:28:28 am »

I have never bashed SFC3 accept when SFC:OP is attacked or I have to rebute some bullsh*t over the oh-so-brillaint "cannon" arguements.

Live and let live is fine, just don't piss in my sandbox and I won't piss in yours.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2004, 12:50:31 pm »

right on D.. durin knows exactly what i mean because he is in our fleet (the 9th fleet)...

and DH,

Quote

Live and let live is fine, just don't piss in my sandbox and I won't piss in yours.

.. i think thats all anyone wants. to simply be treated as human beings - not as if people who prefere a different game is inferrior.

really, its not hard to do.

Elvis · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:16:48 pm »

Quote

This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that thiskind of blanket statement is made.

I'm not understanding. But it would seem that SFC3 players would generally say they are treated as inferiors on these boards. I don't see it, I kind of see it as vanilla and chaocalate, some like one some like the other. I do know that as the cookie crumbled SFC3 has gotten the shaft support wise. But that pretty much was out of our control, and now with passing of Taldren virtually assures the continuation of "non support". Will there ever be an official patch? There certainly won't be the support that Taldren and David Ferrell have given to EAW and OP.

As far as the problems of grafting the SFC3 community into the existing SFC community, and then the further grafting of SFCC into the larger Star Trek gaming community, like attracts like. I like EAW and OP and I want to like SFC3 more but I havn't been able to complete the single player missions with a lot of understanding; SFC3 was just too much out of the box(as in thinking out of the box). The mechanics of the game are different, I didn't say worse; whixch turns me off. I do not own any other Trek games, I followed the development of KA on the old Interplay boards, but when it was released and then the team got fired or reassigned, well that was enough for me I wasn't getting a game that wasn't going to be supported. I bought SFC3 to give Taldren the benefit of the doubt and support. I enjoy watching the series but am not a consistent follower of them. Trek gaming is not an issue for me.

Like attracts like. I do not understand a guy like Age, who wants me wants me to ignore angular velocity by covering it up with a piece of tape. That just makes no sense to me. I would play OP with the ships as white blocks. It is nice that they look good and modders have done wonderful things, but the cool looking ships are not central to the game for me, the mechaniics are though., and the mechanics of EAW and OP make for a good game which I play more often than SFC3.

Like attracts like, there is no forcing community.

Holocat · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2004, 01:56:15 pm »

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 01:44:51 am

And the reverse must surely apply too?

I don't need to be called a stupid SFB'er because I don't like a non-SFB based game. Did I mention I like Napoleonic miniature wargaming (far removed from SFB). I'd much rather be abused as an SFC:TNG hater because I'm a stupid British Napoleon's Battles player and I use cannon (note spelling).

the game system's called British Napoleon's Battles?

Painting?

Rolling · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:09:17 pm »

They just don't have enough love to go around.

Their too busy loving thier own selves.

Sirgod · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:13:19 pm »

KIM!!!!!

Glad to see you back, Don't you ever leave us again. Or at least the Peeps here that still love you.

Stephen

Rod ONeal · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:15:52 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 02:09:17 pm

They just don't have enough love to go around.

Their too busy loving thier own selves.

They?

Byzantine · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:33:20 pm »

Quote from: Hyperion on August 01, 2004, 07:22:07 am

You had me right up until this:

Quote
Now. My thought on Nanners point.
Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it. But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game. Well. There it is. If you say the game is inferior you are pretty much saying the people who play it are inferior.

This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that thiskind of blanket statement is made.

Hello Hyperion,
Please look at what I said more carefully.

1.Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it.
This is the attitude of most SFCx players and it is a fair attitude I think. Yes, if something lacks features that I want it is inferior - for my tastes. But other people have different tastes and that is fine. Most everyone who has been posting recently is in this class. And class does carry both meanings right here, it is a good thing.

2.But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game.
Cleaven is right, for some peoples tastes SFC3 is a lesser game in their personal estimation. The problem is in the way this is said. I preffer SFCx because I like X and/or I don't like SFCx because X Good. I prefer SFCx because SFCx is an inferior game Not so good. Bluntly, who died and made the speaker of this God so that they had a right to define superior/inferior in universal terms? This is the attitude of a small minority but people of this type often tend to be very opinionated, contentious, and noisy. They also tend to be the type who get banned a lot, maybe that is why this thread has been much more civil and on track.

Please note my use of SFCx because yes, these problems cut both ways and these personality types do exist in both camps.

Rolling · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:31:41 pm »

Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 02:13:19 pm

KIM!!!!!

Glad to see you back, Don't you ever leave us again. Or at least the Peeps here that still love you.

Stephen

Don't get too excited, Stephen. I won't be welcomed here for very long.

Sochin · « **Reply #20 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:38:03 pm »

Such a darling young lady as yourself never,I would not entertain such thoughts.

FA Frey XC · « **Reply #21 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:39:28 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 04:31:41 pm

Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 02:13:19 pm
KIM!!!!!

Glad to see you back, Don't you ever leave us again. Or at least the Peeps here that still love you.

Stephen

Don't get too excited, Stephen. I won't be welcomed here for very long.

Kim,

I am glad to see you again!!

I want to be the first to apologize, in public, for my statements regarding your opinions a little while back. I took a look at the situation and realized some things. Thanks for giving it another chance, and you will ALWAYS be welcomed here.

Besides, we need your rolling pin...

<-- extends hand

Dammit Kim, I need your rolling pin...

Regards,

Cleaven · « **Reply #22 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:47:12 pm »

Quote from: Holocat on August 01, 2004, 01:56:15 pm

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 01:44:51 am
And the reverse must surely apply too?

I don't need to be called a stupid SFB'er because I don't like a non-SFB based game. Did I mention I like Napoleonic miniature wargaming (far removed from SFB). I'd much rather be abused as an SFC:TNG hater because I'm a stupid British Napoleon's Battles player and I use cannon (note spelling).

the game system's called British Napoleon's Battles?

Painting?

The game system is called Napoleon's Battles, and I have a British army. And painting is required. I paint my own, but you can pay others to do it for you.

Sirgod · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:52:47 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 04:31:41 pm

Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 02:13:19 pm
KIM!!!!!

Glad to see you back, Don't you ever leave us again. Or at least the Peeps here that still love you.

Stephen

Don't get too excited, Stephen. I won't be welcomed here for very long.

You will also. Kim, You have been a member in good standing for so long, The whole In community Disagreement on how to defend Firesoul was at best a mistake, and at worst, a Debacle. I still hope he get's acknowledgement for his work, he's a great guy.

However, Anyone who thinks your heart wasn't in the right place, is Miss-informed. and Dizzy, I know that may hurt your feelings. Don't get me wrong, I'm the first to defend anyone here, But I think Kim's approach in this instance was Maybe not better, but should have been explored.

Kim, you have always shown kindness, responcibility, and a general love for peeps here. Your loss being here, is an even greater loss for us. What's the old saying, May we become greater together (as a community) then The two of us apart?

I can remember the kind words you have given us all over the years, Hooch, J'inn, Mazeppa, Myself... ETC.

That's a 100% class act lady right there indeed.

Stephen shutting up before he acciedently makes a FUBAR statement re: his other good friends.

Rolling · « **Reply #24 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:01:30 pm »

Quote from: FA_Frey_XC on August 01, 2004, 04:39:28 pm

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 04:31:41 pm
Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 02:13:19 pm
KIM!!!!!

Glad to see you back, Don't you ever leave us again. Or at least the Peeps here that still love you.

Stephen

Don't get too excited, Stephen. I won't be welcomed here for very long.

Kim,

I am glad to see you again!!

I want to be the first to apologize, in public, for my statements regarding your opinions a little while back. I took a look at the situation and realized some things. Thanks for giving it another chance, and you will ALWAYS be welcomed here.

Besides, we need your rolling pin...

<-- extends hand

Dammit Kim, I need your rolling pin...

Regards,

deleted

KBF-Nail · « **Reply #25 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:09:24 pm »

When has OP players said anything bad about the D3 Players? If we say we dont like the SFC3 game. Well tough thats our opinion and we have a right too our opinion. Just like the D3 players have a right with their opinion as well. Now if u want the whole D2 community too drop D2 and play SFC3. Doubt that will ever happen.. So just let people play what people want too play.

Age · « **Reply #26 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:18:08 pm »

Quote from: Elvis on August 01, 2004, 01:16:48 pm

Quote
This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that thiskind of blanket statement is made.

I'm not understanding. But it would seem that SFC3 players would generally say they are treated as inferiors on these boards. I don't see it, I kind of see it as vanilla and chaocalate, some like one some like the other. I do know that as the cookie crumbled SFC3 has gotten the shaft support wise. But that pretty much was out of our control, and now with passing of Taldren virtually assures the continuation of "non support". Will there ever be an official patch? There certainly won't be the support that Taldren and David Ferrell have given to EAW and OP.

As far as the problems of grafting the SFC3 community into the existing SFC community, and then the further grafting of SFCC into the larger Star Trek gaming community, like attracts like. I like EAW and OP and I want to like SFC3 more but I havn't been able to complete the single player missions with a lot of understanding; SFC3 was just too much out of the box(as in thinking out of the box). The mechanics of the game are different, I didn't say worse; whixch turns me off. I do not own any other Trek games, I followed the development of KA on the old Interplay boards, but when it was released and then the team got fired or reassigned, well that was enough for me I wasn't getting a game that wasn't going to be supported. I bought SFC3 to give Taldren the benefit of the doubt and support. I enjoy watching the series but am not a consistent follower of them. Trek gaming is not an issue for me.

Like attracts like. I do not understand a guy like Age, who wants me wants me to ignore angular velocity by covering it up with a piece of tape. That just makes no sense to me. I would play OP with the ships as white blocks. It is nice that they look good and modders have done wonderful things, but the cool looking ships are not central to the game for me, the mechaniics are though., and the mechanics of EAW and OP make for a good game which I play more often than SFC3.

Like attracts like, there is no forcing community.

I was suggesting putting a piece of tape over it for Cleaven as he has problem with this.I see it easier that to watch the AV instead of the EW panel when I have to switch weapons to proximity to normal.This when somebody is getting close to me.That means push the H button and pushing the 2 button the hotkey to where I have my torps on to.I would discipline some of your admins in the thread Frey for letting this out of hand.If I were an admin I would of handed out suspensions and bans to almost everyone in that thread.If I were a cop I would be that one like Bosco on 3RD Watch.I was a tough talking smoking teen and adolescent.It is time to clean up the d2 forum as I look at SkyFlyrs thread about DieHard and Jinn.This does not happen at the Tri Mods forum.If it were the real world 50% of them would be behind bars.
I have never found a moderator to help me out when I am being harassed like Kim.I mean joked upon that is harassment in the eyes of the law.I know my Crim. law really well btw.

Rolling · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:25:21 pm »

Frey and Stephen... thank you.

But my eyes have been opened.

These last days have totally removed the veil that had me blinded, and I needed that.

Sometimes I put people in high regard that do not deserve it.

I do that way too often until a swift kick in the stomach helps me see things a little clearer.

So, I would like to thank the players, from this tragic play, for the insight they have given me.

You all played your part so nicely. It fit well into the agenda and everyone was on cue.

Bravo!!!!

Sincerely,

Kimberly

likkerpig · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:28:00 pm »

Am I the only one baffled by Kim's and Age's posts?

Rolling · « **Reply #29 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:33:46 pm »

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 05:28:00 pm

Am I the only one baffled by Kim's and Age's posts?

Only the guilty and involved will understand.

likkerpig · « **Reply #30 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:37:14 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 05:33:46 pm

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 05:28:00 pm
Am I the only one baffled by Kim's and Age's posts?

Only the guilty and involved will understand.

Ok... wow not often I can use the words innocent and likkerpig in the same sentance.

Cozbo · « **Reply #31 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:45:31 pm »

Wow, lots of discussion here.

I played SFC1 and SFC2 in single player stuff til I was burned out. I never got into modded stuff though.
Just about the time i had put the games down SFC3 came out so I bought it. The few weeks I hated it and was really disappointed, having been used to EAW. i almost trashed it right then but i kept playing. Kept trying to see what it had in it to make it fun.

Eventually it grew on me. SFC3 is not the product I wanted to follow SFC2 but it is what it is.

With the latest patches to it SFC3 is truely a modders game. The stock version is bad and no one flies the ships the way they should be flown in the trek universe.

All SFC games have some things in common. SFC2 is a more technical game while SFC3 is a more of a pilots game. each have there strong and weak points and will not appeal to all.

Now here is where I will get in trouble:
Many in here want to try and turn SFC3 into a SFC:OP type game.
Those who tend to take it the other direction, toward an arcade game, tend to get bashed in here.

SFC3 will never be OP or EAW. Never. Just like they will never be SFC3.
We can add ships, change settings but we can't put elements into the game that just aren't there.

Only a handful of players can move back and forth between these games and be good. Most will tend to be in one camp or the other. The best we can achieve is mutual respect not unity.

"Seperate but equal" Just don't start hanging SFC2 only signs or tell us to sit in the back of the forum.

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #32 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:48:38 pm »

I guess that, for my part, I don't agree with the idea that this "rift" or whatever drama has everyone concerned about is even the prevalent feeling or manner of behavior among the people in this community.

Just as I'm sure there are a few SFC2 types that don't have too many kind words to say about SFC2/OP (or SFB, if they know anything about it), I'm sure there are a few SFC2/SFB types that don't have much kind to say about SFC3. I don't think either group is in the majority in their respective camps.

Sometimes I think the SFC3/SFC2 "rift" is exaggerated and that exaggeration actually perpetuates the problem as a sort of self-fulfilling thing. I think maybe the "rift" is more between individuals and I note that the drama associated with SFC3 players seems a lot more frequent and divisive than anything currently going on in the SFC2 world or even between the SFC2 and SFC3 players. While the SFC2 players have their own problems, I think one of the biggest things that turns off some of the people in the SFC2 crowd is the behavior and sheer vitriol that seems prevalent in the SFC3 world. This isn't to say there aren't some fine upstanding people in the SFC3 world and they have accomplished a great deal[/i] to make the game better than it was first released. I myself find the game enjoyable again after leaving it for about 18 months and allowing it to grow. Maybe it's true of other players who peek in on the SFC2 forum, but most of what turns me off about SFC3 is all the infighting among the various factions. Perhaps it is worthwhile to note that if you love something enough, you're willing to look past that or put up with it. Maybe that's why I don't view SFC2 in the same light. I don't know for sure.

It's interesting to note that in SFC2, most of the drama tends to be between Fed and Klingon players. That might be (at least in part) a function of the types of personalities that choose to play these two races. Some of it might be role-play taken a bit too far.

When it comes to the mechanics and development of the game, I think the entire SFC2 group interacts in a reasonably constructive manner. It's just the Klingons and the Feds that seem to have a tough time getting along (obviously, even this isn't a huge problem and many from the two groups of players do get along quite well).

One sentiment that I can definitely get behind is to let bygones be bygones and just move forward. The horse has been beaten and it is indeed dead. Maybe a little less hand-wringing about the state of things and a little more proactive work on building up the community will work better. The community at large will accept something if it's a good thing. With a few exceptions, I'm sure most of us are here to have a good time, make friends and get along. This may require people to be a little less defensive about their respective preferred game. By the same token, it would be nice if people who didn't have anything nice, or at least aren't able criticize constructively, either game just keep their thoughts to themselves. We've already heard it...and it doesn't help.

Rolling · « **Reply #33 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:51:36 pm »

Quote from: Cozbo on August 01, 2004, 05:45:31 pm

Wow, lots of discussion here.

I played SFC1 and SFC2 in single player stuff til I was burned out. I never got into modded stuff though.
Just about the time i had put the games down SFC3 came out so I bought it. The few weeks I hated it and was really disappointed, having been used to EAW. i almost trashed it right then but i kept playing. Kept trying to see what it had in it to make it fun.

Eventually it grew on me. SFC3 is not the product I wanted to follow SFC2 but it is what it is.

With the latest patches to it SFC3 is truely a modders game. The stock version is bad and no one flies the ships the way they should be flown in the trek universe.

All SFC games have some things in common. SFC2 is a more technical game while SFC3 is a more of a pilots game. each have there strong and weak points and will not appeal to all.

Now here is where I will get in trouble:
Many in here want to try and turn SFC3 into a SFC:OP type game.
Those who tend to take it the other direction, toward an arcade game, tend to get bashed in here.

SFC3 will never be OP or EAW. Never. Just like they will never be SFC3.
We can add ships, change settings but we can't put elements into the game that just aren't there.

Only a handful of players can move back and forth between these games and be good. Most will tend to be in one camp or the other. The best we can achieve is mutual respect not unity.

"Seperate but equal" Just don't start hanging SFC2 only signs or tell us to sit in the back of the forum.

Now this is a breath of fresh air.

Thank you, Cozbo. Someone give him karma for me!!!!

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #34 on:** August 01, 2004, 05:56:08 pm »

Quote from: Cozbo on August 01, 2004, 05:45:31 pm

Wow, lots of discussion here.

I played SFC1 and SFC2 in single player stuff til I was burned out. I never got into modded stuff though.
Just about the time i had put the games down SFC3 came out so I bought it. The few weeks I hated it and was really disappointed, having been used to EAW. i almost trashed it right then but i kept playing. Kept trying to see what it had in it to make it fun.

Eventually it grew on me. SFC3 is not the product I wanted to follow SFC2 but it is what it is.

With the latest patches to it SFC3 is truely a modders game. The stock version is bad and no one flies the ships the way they should be flown in the trek universe.

All SFC games have some things in common. SFC2 is a more technical game while SFC3 is a more of a pilots game. each have there strong and weak points and will not appeal to all.

Now here is where I will get in trouble:
Many in here want to try and turn SFC3 into a SFC:OP type game.
Those who tend to take it the other direction, toward an arcade game, tend to get bashed in here.

SFC3 will never be OP or EAW. Never. Just like they will never be SFC3.
We can add ships, change settings but we can't put elements into the game that just aren't there.

Only a handful of players can move back and forth between these games and be good. Most will tend to be in one camp or the other. The best we can achieve is mutual respect not unity.

"Seperate but equal" Just don't start hanging SFC2 only signs or tell us to sit in the back of the forum.

That's great and I think I agree with most of what you say.

With regard to the last sentence, however, the next time I see any of that (at least around here or the old Taldren fora) will be the first time, so that's a non-issue, in my view.

It's interesting that a few people keep using that particular human rights/race-related analogy, though. I just don't feel it's warranted. Perhaps someone can show specific instances where this applies?

likkerpig · « **Reply #35 on:** August 01, 2004, 06:15:37 pm »

Quote from: Cozbo on August 01, 2004, 05:45:31 pm

Those who tend to take it the other direction, toward an arcade game, tend to get bashed in here.

"Seperate but equal" Just don't start hanging SFC2 only signs or tell us to sit in the back of the forum.

Great post Cozbo, but...
To echo Dogmatix here, I haven't seen what you are talking about in those two sentences. I know SFC3 trashing happened a lot on the Taldren boards, especially when SFC3 first came out. But I haven't seen it other than personal cheap shots here or the latter part of the Taldren boards lifetime. I don't care much for SFC3, but I keep digging it out every so often and try the new mods out... but that is just me, I have no disrespect for people that play SFC3, nor would I proclaim myself thier better for enjoying OP more. Many posts in the last few days have made reference to OP players bashing SFC3... I still don't see it.

Age · « **Reply #36 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:03:49 pm »

I guess what it come down to is that there is no Justice around here for D3ers unlike D2ers which get away with a lot the joking and the nonscense.I feel like them sometimes in the D2 forum when I explain a tactic everyone jokes about it. When I am at the Tri Mods boards when I do this they tell me the prober way to to it.The D2 communtiy doesn't do this at the Tri Mods they get warned a lot about thier behavior.

I still intend to play OP online once I am fully set up as well SFC3 Dom Wars.There is one thing I would like to point out about myself is that I have been on forum boards for 5 months.Taldren was the first and I was there for 4.5 months.I hope this sheads some light on the subject.

Holocat · « **Reply #37 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:16:25 pm »

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 04:47:12 pm

Quote from: Holocat on August 01, 2004, 01:56:15 pm
Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 01:44:51 am
And the reverse must surely apply too?

I don't need to be called a stupid SFB'er because I don't like a non-SFB based game. Did I mention I like Napoleonic miniature wargaming (far removed from SFB). I'd much rather be abused as an SFC:TNG hater because I'm a stupid British Napoleon's Battles player and I use cannon (note spelling).

the game system's called British Napoleon's Battles?

Painting?

The game system is called Napoleon's Battles, and I have a British army. And painting is required. I paint my own, but you can pay others to do it for you.

Heh. It's all warhammer and some sort of aliens game here. Bunch of my compatriots here play it. Smaller scale. Battle size I mean, the figures are larger.

Durin · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:20:21 pm »

Heh I'm staring at my Warhammer army right now.. Dwarf of course.

likkerpig · « **Reply #39 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm »

Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

Holocat · « **Reply #40 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:29:00 pm »

Quote from: Durin on August 01, 2004, 07:20:21 pm

Heh I'm staring at my Warhammer army right now.. Dwarf of course.

Whoops! 40K more often than not. In the 42 century, there is only war... and dice. No one by the 42nd century fights wars without dice. This is, of course, because the Greek Knucklebones Casino now spans half of earth.

I can't remember the epic version of warhammer that came out, but a friend did a dwarf army there. Personally, i'm Epic 40K. If they would stop changing the rules, anyway. *mumble*

Cleaven · « **Reply #41 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:36:36 pm »

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 05:28:00 pm

Am I the only one baffled by Kim's and Age's posts?

Well I can tell you that being able to read and interpret SFB rules is of no help in this situation. Now where's my dice and tape measure? I feel the need to blow away some cavalry with some cannon.

likkerpig · « **Reply #42 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:41:29 pm »

Quote from: Durin on August 01, 2004, 07:20:21 pm

Heh I'm staring at my Warhammer army right now.. Dwarf of course.

Haven't played in over a year... has GW put out a new ruleset and books yet... seems to be the way they insure greater revenue.

Oh, Undead for Warhammer, Iron Warriors for 40K.

Rolling · « **Reply #43 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm »

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm

Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

I will explain a first hand experience about the way people react to a person/fleet playing the D3.

When SCF3 first came out, most of the SSCF members bought it.

We practiced a little together, then decided to play in our first "real campaign".

I was approached, by a D2er on MSN, and asked if the SSCF was playing in the D3. I said yes.

That person immediately went to the D2 forums and announced that the SSCF was now a D3 fleet.

Why? We play a D3 campaign and all of a sudden we were a D3 fleet? That made no sense to me.

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

I was shocked. This made no sense to me since the person yelling about never even played SCF3 at the time.

So, yes I understand what is being said.

You are labled a D3er exclusively if you play there, at least at first you were.

Now, on the other hand, when I first went into the D3, I felt very unconfortable. People were ruder.

I finally realised that the player base were young squirts that had no manners.

I haven't been on there for quiet some time so I don't know how much it has changed.

You may not have felt the difference between the D2 and D3. You may not have been fingered as a traitor of the D2, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Yes, it is two different games, and it attracts different people for different reasons.

But, we could be civil neighbors and share ideas with each other.

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

Sirgod · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:56:25 pm »

Wow , and I thought the SSCF caught hell over the BF1942 Games. which although I wasn't able to play on very much, I still liked.

To the Original point, There's 4 games here Made by the same people. Why can't we be a Community based on that alone?

I'm not sure why not, and It hasn't been Told to me where I can understand.

Stephen

Holocat · « **Reply #45 on:** August 01, 2004, 07:58:55 pm »

Quote

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

Sure, but I though all the D2 regulars stocked was booze and catnip. Mostly booze.

Edit: Wait, J'inn did say he stocked shampoo. Kiwi and something. Not that that has anything to do with sugar.

Another edit: Wait, Chocodiles. If we can make those then there's got to be sugar and chocolate around here somewhere...

Rolling · « **Reply #46 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:00:11 pm »

Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 07:56:25 pm

Wow , and I thought the SSCF caught hell over the BF1942 Games. which although I wasn't able to play on very much, I still liked.

To the Original point, There's 4 games here Made by the same people. Why can't we be a Community based on that alone?

I'm not sure why not, and It hasn't been Told to me where I can understand.

Stephen

The SSCF catches hell if we have an original thought and don't act like the other sheep.

Face it, people are scared when people do different things. It makes them.... uncomfortable.

Don't be different, or you'll get fingered.

Rolling · « **Reply #47 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:11:44 pm »

Quote from: Holocat on August 01, 2004, 07:58:55 pm

Quote
"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

Sure, but I though all the D2 regulars stocked was booze and catnip. Mostly booze.

Edit: Wait, J'inn did say he stocked shampoo. Kiwi and something. Not that that has anything to do with sugar.

ROFL!!!

Cleaven · « **Reply #48 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:30:15 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

Rubbish. Am I a D2er? Yes I am. Was I in anyway part of this non-acceptance of a fleet doing both? No, far from it.

Now stop painting people with broad brushes.

Age · « **Reply #49 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:32:21 pm »

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm

Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

This is what I mean though and if you read my post slowly you would have noticed.That those in the Tri Mod forums will correct me on tactics when it comes to SFC3.They don't start joking around when they explain it to me even WT.They know I am new at this.

The D3er that are in here are from BattleClinic and I think Kane is one of them.I am only guessing?

NannerSlug · « **Reply #50 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:35:59 pm »

kim, you are 100% on the money what i am talking about. i could get real detailed and messy about a similar situation which you guys went through, but i wont.

you can have different taste and nothing makes one more right than the other.

Rolling · « **Reply #51 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:37:11 pm »

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 08:30:15 pm

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

Rubbish. Am I a D2er? Yes I am. Was I in anyway part of this non-acceptance of a fleet doing both? No, far from it.

Now stop painting people with broad brushes.

You were not said to have done it personally, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done.

Don't call me a liar when I experienced it first hand.

Age · « **Reply #52 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:46:00 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm
Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

I will explain a first hand experience about the way people react to a person/fleet playing the D3.

When SCF3 first came out, most of the SSCF members bought it.

We practiced a little together, then decided to play in our first "real campaign".

I was approached, by a D2er on MSN, and asked if the SSCF was playing in the D3. I said yes.

That person immediately went to the D2 forums and announced that the SSCF was now a D3 fleet.

Why? We play a D3 campaign and all of a sudden we were a D3 fleet? That made no sense to me.

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

I was shocked. This made no sense to me since the person yelling about never even played SCF3 at the time.

So, yes I understand what is being said.

You are labled a D3er exclusively if you play there, at least at first you were.

Now, on the other hand, when I first went into the D3, I felt very unconfortable. People were ruder.

I finally realised that the player base were young squirts that had no manners.

I haven't been on there for quiet some time so I don't know how much it has changed.

You may not have felt the difference between the D2 and D3. You may not have been fingered as a traitor of the D2, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Yes, it is two different games, and it attracts different people for different reasons.

But, we could be civil neighbors and share ideas with each other.

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

I know and you are great person Kimberly one who is warming and careing in the D2 community especialy on the old Taldren boards.The SSCF is Registeredd Fleet at the Star Trek Gamers Directory that mean nobody can use your name it is protected.That is what the STGD can do is protect Fleet Names.

likkerpig · « **Reply #53 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:47:00 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm
Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

I will explain a first hand experience about the way people react to a person/fleet playing the D3.

When SCF3 first came out, most of the SSCF members bought it.

We practiced a little together, then decided to play in our first "real campaign".

I was approached, by a D2er on MSN, and asked if the SSCF was playing in the D3. I said yes.

That person immediately went to the D2 forums and announced that the SSCF was now a D3 fleet.

Why? We play a D3 campaign and all of a sudden we were a D3 fleet? That made no sense to me.

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

I was shocked. This made no sense to me since the person yelling about never even played SCF3 at the time.

So, yes I understand what is being said.

You are labled a D3er exclusively if you play there, at least at first you were.

Now, on the other hand, when I first went into the D3, I felt very unconfortable. People were ruder.

I finally realised that the player base were young squirts that had no manners.

I haven't been on there for quiet some time so I don't know how much it has changed.

You may not have felt the difference between the D2 and D3. You may not have been fingered as a traitor of the D2, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Yes, it is two different games, and it attracts different people for different reasons.

But, we could be civil neighbors and share ideas with each other.

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

Ok that adds some insight for me. To be honest Kim I've never labelled myself as an OP'er or what have you. Recently I have been speaking as an OP'er but just in rebuttal to some of the comments made. I do not belong to any fleet or any other organization, I got upset about being grouped with the (as far as I know) illusionary D2'ers that trashed people on D3. For me it is a game I play with people I have fun with... no more, no less. When people start spouting about "honor" and "meet me on the field of battle" like it had any bearing on our real lives... well that starts to get into the obsessive zone.
Once again, I don't see where D2'ers are dumping on D3'ers in this forum. Maybe it is in PM's or GameSpy, but other than some often repeated "We don't care" posts I don't see the issue.
Is it just me? Am I really that dim?

FVA_C_ Blade_ XC · « **Reply #54 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:47:14 pm »

Guys this thread is going downhill quickly,Could we get back OT please.

TY.

Rolling · « **Reply #55 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:54:55 pm »

Quote from: FVA_C_Blade_XC on August 01, 2004, 08:47:14 pm

Guys this thread is going downhill quickly,Could we get back OT please.

TY.

Oh, I forgot.... sorry.

Back to topic:

YOU STUPID DUMB BUNNIES!!!!

YOU DON'T KNOW OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!!!

REMOVE THE MARBLES FROM YOUR POCKETS AND STICK THEM BACK IN YOUR HEAD!!!

Is that more on topic? <snicker>

FVA_C_ Blade_ XC · « **Reply #56 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:58:25 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 08:54:55 pm

Quote from: FVA_C_Blade_XC on August 01, 2004, 08:47:14 pm
Guys this thread is going downhill quickly,Could we get back OT please.

TY.

Oh, I forgot.... sorry.

Back to topic:

YOU STUPID DUMB BUNNIES!!!!

YOU DON'T KNOW OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!!!

REMOVE THE MARBLES FROM YOUR POCKETS AND STICK THEM BACK IN YOUR HEAD!!!

Is that more on topic? <snicker>

Holocat · « **Reply #57 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:01:58 pm »

Quote

Ok that adds some insight for me. To be honest Kim I've never labelled myself as an OP'er or what have you. Recently I have been speaking as an OP'er but just in rebuttal to some of the comments made. I do not belong to any fleet or any other organization, I got upset about being grouped with the (as far as I know) illusionary D2'ers that trashed people on D3. For me it is a game I play with people I have fun with... no more, no less. When people start spouting about "honor" and "meet me on the field of battle" like it had any bearing on our real lives... well that starts to get into the obsessive zone.
Once again, I don't see where D2'ers are dumping on D3'ers in this forum. Maybe it is in PM's or GameSpy, but other than some often repeated "We don't care" posts I don't see the issue.
Is it just me? Am I really that dim?

You know, now that it's been recalled to life I do dimly remember some of that flak in the taldren forums.

Quote

Guys this thread is going downhill quickly,Could we get back OT please.

TY.

Less yaking and more looking for sugar. I mean, seriously, asking a fora full of married men and bachelors for a cooking ingredient. The bachelors are eating pizza and pop as we speak and the married men got married for a reason, right?

I think it's with the Gorn, as they're the ones eating chocodiles. Or with the Lyrans and their Krispy Kremes. Going to the lyrans might be the better bet.

Rolling · « **Reply #58 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:06:44 pm »

Quote from: FVA_C_Blade_XC on August 01, 2004, 08:58:25 pm

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 08:54:55 pm
Quote from: FVA_C_Blade_XC on August 01, 2004, 08:47:14 pm
Guys this thread is going downhill quickly,Could we get back OT please.

TY.

Oh, I forgot.... sorry.

Back to topic:

YOU STUPID DUMB BUNNIES!!!!

YOU DON'T KNOW OF WHAT YOU SPEAK!!!

REMOVE THE MARBLES FROM YOUR POCKETS AND STICK THEM BACK IN YOUR HEAD!!!

Is that more on topic? <snicker>

likkerpig · « **Reply #59 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:06:53 pm »

Quote from: EFF Age on August 01, 2004, 08:32:21 pm

This is what I mean though and if you read my post slowly you would have noticed.That those in the Tri Mod forums will correct me on tactics when it comes to SFC3.They don't start joking around when they explain it to me even WT.They know I am new at this.

The D3er that are in here are from BattleClinic and I think Kane is one of them.I am only guessing?

Quote

Read your post slowly? Why, did you write it slowly?
All I can say is it is differnt people on the TriMod forums, never been there that I know of. If you feel you have been treated harshly on the D2 forum, maybe you should step back and think about why that happened. Rather than come into a group of people and expect them to adapt to you, you should get to know the lay of the land and adapt to it. The D2 board is very wecoming to new players, lots of help and advice to be given. But when someone comes in and starts telling people they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground that person should expect some rebuttal.
As for SFC3, I really got to go with the tried and true.... Who Cares? Who is Kane and what bearing does he have on me? As I said before I occasionally load up SFC3 and try the mods, but with all the b***sh** you guys have going on, why would I (or anyone else) bother?
It really seems like another attempt to drag OP players into that warped little war going on for the D3. If that is the case.... go away.

DAnahos_XC · « **Reply #60 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:10:40 pm »

The jist-

Some play on D2.

Some play on D3.

Some play on D2 And/Or D3.

Some like SFC OP/EAW. Some like SFC3. Some like both.

Who gives a flying flip who plays what where and when? Can't everyone play where they want to play when they want to play and leave it at that?

(Sorry, this longtime issue is really making my head hurt.)

/back to lurking

Rolling · « **Reply #61 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:14:22 pm »

Quote from: DAnahos_XC on August 01, 2004, 09:10:40 pm

The jist-

Some play on D2.

Some play on D3.

Some play on D2 And/Or D3.

Some like SFC OP/EAW. Some like SFC3. Some like both.

Who gives a flying flip who plays what where and when? Can't everyone play where they want to play when they want to play and leave it at that?

(Sorry, this longtime issue is really making my head hurt.)

/back to lurking

Exactly.

People should be able to play what they want without being labled or put down.

Rolling · « **Reply #62 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:23:20 pm »

Quote from: EFF Age on August 01, 2004, 08:46:00 pm

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm
Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm
Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

I will explain a first hand experience about the way people react to a person/fleet playing the D3.

When SCF3 first came out, most of the SSCF members bought it.

We practiced a little together, then decided to play in our first "real campaign".

I was approached, by a D2er on MSN, and asked if the SSCF was playing in the D3. I said yes.

That person immediately went to the D2 forums and announced that the SSCF was now a D3 fleet.

Why? We play a D3 campaign and all of a sudden we were a D3 fleet? That made no sense to me.

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

I was shocked. This made no sense to me since the person yelling about never even played SCF3 at the time.

So, yes I understand what is being said.

You are labled a D3er exclusively if you play there, at least at first you were.

Now, on the other hand, when I first went into the D3, I felt very unconfortable. People were ruder.

I finally realised that the player base were young squirts that had no manners.

I haven't been on there for quiet some time so I don't know how much it has changed.

You may not have felt the difference between the D2 and D3. You may not have been fingered as a traitor of the D2, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Yes, it is two different games, and it attracts different people for different reasons.

But, we could be civil neighbors and share ideas with each other.

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly
I know and you are great person Kimberly one who is warming and careing in the D2 community especialy on the old Taldren boards.The SSCF is Registeredd Fleet at the Star Trek Gamers Directory that mean nobody can use your name it is protected.That is what the STGD can do is protect Fleet Names.

Thanks, Age.

I get rather embarrassed when someone compliments me like this.

I don't know how to respond so I ignore it, but then I feel rude so I have to acknowlege it to say thank you.

Kimberly

Cleaven · « **Reply #63 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:50:42 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 08:37:11 pm

Quote from: Cleaven on August 01, 2004, 08:30:15 pm
Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

Rubbish. Am I a D2er? Yes I am. Was I in anyway part of this non-acceptance of a fleet doing both? No, far from it.

Now stop painting people with broad brushes.

You were not said to have done it personally, but that doesn't mean it wasn't done.

Don't call me a liar when I experienced it first hand.

You said D2er's. Plainly and clearly. I am one, and did no such thing. You may have had a problem with a subset of the D2 players but not all of them, at least not me. Just stick to the facts and don't include me in your stupid global generalisation.

Now if you do specifically say I (as a D2'er) was part of it (the non-acceptance) then you are flat out lying. Is that what you really want to say?

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #64 on:** August 01, 2004, 09:59:37 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 07:51:18 pm

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 07:25:14 pm
Age, once again you bring up the bias against people who play D3. There has been a lot of that the last few days and I see no proof of it. Just people trying to incite anger over an issue that does not exist.
As for the comments you recieved on your tactics posts... well if you are going to talk tactics without actually having used them against a human player you should grow a thick skin for the responses you will get.
As for Skyflyer's post, did you actually read it or just the title? It was humor directed at the fact that GW3 was starting at the same time as his school year. Nothing offensive, just a joke.

I will explain a first hand experience about the way people react to a person/fleet playing the D3.

When SCF3 first came out, most of the SSCF members bought it.

We practiced a little together, then decided to play in our first "real campaign".

I was approached, by a D2er on MSN, and asked if the SSCF was playing in the D3. I said yes.

That person immediately went to the D2 forums and announced that the SSCF was now a D3 fleet.

Why? We play a D3 campaign and all of a sudden we were a D3 fleet? That made no sense to me.

I begin to realize what was going on. The D2ers could not except the fact that someone, or some fleet was an SCF fleet.

They HAD to be a D2 fleet OR a D3 fleet.

I was shocked. This made no sense to me since the person yelling about never even played SCF3 at the time.

So, yes I understand what is being said.

You are labled a D3er exclusively if you play there, at least at first you were.

Now, on the other hand, when I first went into the D3, I felt very unconfortable. People were ruder.

I finally realised that the player base were young squirts that had no manners.

I haven't been on there for quiet some time so I don't know how much it has changed.

You may not have felt the difference between the D2 and D3. You may not have been fingered as a traitor of the D2, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Yes, it is two different games, and it attracts different people for different reasons.

But, we could be civil neighbors and share ideas with each other.

"May I borrow a cup of sugar?"

Kimberly

Kim...I don't doubt that this one person (whoever it was did this) but do you mean to tell me you think anyone, especially a majority of "D2 people" actually bought it or cared what that person popped off about? Egads..I barely remember the incident. It was a nonevent to me. Granted, as a member of the SSCF, I can see where it might have been more of a meaningful event for you and your fleetmates.

I'm quite certain I never put any stock in that "report" and I don't know anyone who did. I guess I'm a little surprised at the lasting impression that this has left on you. Just out of curiosity...can anyone even remember who it was? I don't...heh...but then I'm getting old.

Yes...the incident was completely stupid and shouldn't have happened. I'm with ya there.

Just because one or two...or maybe even five people did this or believed it and perhaps felt the way you say they did, it doesn't mean that this feeling is predominant among SFC2 players.

I doubt the idea that a fleet must either be solely a D2, D3 or GSA fleet is very popular anywhere, let alone among the "D2 players" Heck, I can't even think of any fleets that necessarily restrict their members to playing a specific race.

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #65 on:** August 01, 2004, 10:13:09 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 08:00:11 pm

Quote from: Stephen on August 01, 2004, 07:56:25 pm
Wow , and I thought the SSCF caught hell over the BF1942 Games. which although I wasn't able to play on very much, I still liked.

To the Original point, There's 4 games here Made by the same people. Why can't we be a Comm[ ] based on that alone?

I'm not sure why not, and It hasn't been Told to me where I can understand.

Stephen

The SSCF catches hell if we have an original thought and don't act like the other sheep.

Face it, people are scared when people do different things. It makes them.... uncomfortable.

Don't be different, or you'll get fingered.

Again...I doubt seriously that this is a belief held by more than a very small percentage of the people in this community. I believe a great many people are being just as harmed by this generalization as the SSCF has been by those that hold this minority view.

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #66 on:** August 01, 2004, 10:14:31 pm »

Quote from: NannerSlug on August 01, 2004, 08:35:59 pm

kim, you are 100% on the money what i am talking about. i could get real detailed and messy about a similar situation which you guys went through, but i wont.

you can have different taste and nothing makes one more right than the other.

Seriously Nanner...let's hear it. I'm rather surprised by this. What happened?

Laflin · « **Reply #67 on:** August 01, 2004, 10:53:31 pm »

Doggy does the wife know you have all of this free time to post? Back to changing diapers, mister!

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #68 on:** August 01, 2004, 11:18:53 pm »

Quote from: Laflin on August 01, 2004, 10:53:31 pm

Doggy does the wife know you have all of this free time to post? Back to changing diapers, mister!

Heh...I'm going back into the jungle tomorrow and I'll pretty much be gone from any "fun" for the next couple of weeks. I think she's cutting me some slack.

1 poopy diaper and 2 pee-pee diapers to my credit today.

FPF-Jem · « **Reply #69 on:** August 02, 2004, 12:43:04 am »

Quote from: EFF Age on August 01, 2004, 07:03:49 pm

I guess what it come down to is that there is no Justice around here for D3ers unlike D2ers which get away with a lot the joking and the nonscense.I feel like them sometimes in the D2 forum when I explain a tactic everyone jokes about it. When I am at the Tri Mods boards when I do this they tell me the prober way to to it.The D2 communtiy doesn't do this at the Tri Mods they get warned a lot about thier behavior.

I still intend to play OP online once I am fully set up as well SFC3 Dom Wars.There is one thing I would like to point out about myself is that I have been on forum boards for 5 months.Taldren was the first and I was there for 4.5 months.I hope this sheads some light on the subject.

Sorry about not responding to this earlier but I was playing a new game I got and was too busy to check the forums

I can think of a couple situations in which you might of got bounced a little hard Age, but I think it was primarily because you didn't understand the way we interact in the D2 Forum, we can occasionally come across as being a little harsh in our rebuttals to those who don't know us, and in the case with the BCE because you weren't listening to what the other people were saying, and they got fed up. I hope I didn't come over as being overly harsh but that was the way I perceived it.

One thing that has helped me to acclimatize myself to various forums has been to simply watch the interaction of the community before I start to actively participate and to hold my tongue as much as possible unless I feel quite strongly or have something I think will contribute to the discussion. Also when I do goof up and/or someone bites my head off, I always try to remember that it is just a game and isn't really that important.

Again I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, it was meant in a friendly manner.

Sincerely, FPF-Jem

P.S. I love Spell checkers, I'd make so many mistakes otherwise

P.P.S. I agree with Doggy on the issue with the SSCF being a SFC3 fleet only, in fact it had totally slipped my mind until it was brought up again because I hadn't paid it any attention the first time

FireSoul · « **Reply #70 on:** August 02, 2004, 01:04:40 am »

Quote from: Rolling on August 01, 2004, 05:33:46 pm

Quote from: likkerpig on August 01, 2004, 05:28:00 pm
Am I the only one baffled by Kim's and Age's posts?
Only the guilty and involved will understand.

Kim, were you on board within the forums for the people or for the game? Perhaps you should consider that these boards exist because of a game, first, and to allow people with common interest for that game to come together, second.

People don't want to be babysit, they're not here for that. They're here to come together because of games they like, and they will display their opinions and emotions in all ways.

Personally, I like you as a player and as a contributrice to this group of people, but your reaction to us and such since the mishap involving my OP+ project makes me think you were here more for the people than for the game. I would enjoy to see you online and play with us again, but not on here like this participating in a way that keeps saying that you don't want to be with us.

Be in it for the game.. (looks up at pretty graphic)..
'It's all about the game."

-- Luc
FireSoul

Cleaven · « **Reply #71 on:** August 02, 2004, 01:37:08 am »

Quote from: FPF-Jem on August 02, 2004, 12:43:04 am

P.S. I love Spell checkers, I'd make so many mistakes otherwise

But why isn't SFC (and SFB) added to the dictionary!!!!

Rolling · « **Reply #72 on:** August 02, 2004, 05:06:11 am »

More and more people are saying they remember the incident, others refuse to believe it existed.

Some don't want to hear that such a thing could have ever here.

And others have proven the point that you can't be different, or say anything different, without being whipped back into the line.

I've been guilty myself of having bad feelings towards the D3ers!!! There, I'm the first one to admit it!!!

KAT Chuut-Ritt · « **Reply #73 on:** August 02, 2004, 05:42:18 am »

Quote from: Rolling on August 02, 2004, 05:06:11 am

Quote
More and more people are saying they remember the incident, others refuse to believe it existed.

Some don't want to hear that such a thing could have ever here

The past might havve its embarrasing moments but the point is to move on, I do think the majority of D2 players hold no ill feeling towards the D3 or D3 players at this point in time

Quote
And others have proven the point that you can't be different, or say anything different, without being whipped back into the line.

I don't see this although there is likely a tendency for people to hold on to their views unless shaken out of them. And trying to point out the validity of ones views is essential to any debate and debate is the cornerstone of most forums. Now the language and tone definately needs some adjustment or it could be interpreted as "whipping" in some cases. I'd prefer a more guiding tone with some witty retort to be more the standard, but then again I'm just trying to whip you all into line.....

Quote
I've been guilty myself of having bad feelings towards the D3ers!!! There, I'm the first one to admit it!!!

Only because I was so longwinded in the other thread, otherwise I'd have beat ya.... But seriously, Kim, I think what you posted in this last bit is not truly what you felt. I made the distinction on that other longwinded post that I had some distain for SFC#3 when it first appeared, but I never had the same distain for the players themselves. I think this is what your getting at, but we should be clear about this distinction so as to give the most accurate portrayal possible, please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Cleaven · « **Reply #74 on:** August 02, 2004, 06:49:15 am »

Hmmm, there's being different, and then there's being wrong to the detriment of others.

Hyperion · « **Reply #75 on:** August 02, 2004, 07:16:07 am »

Quote from: Elvis on August 01, 2004, 01:16:48 pm

Quote
This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that thiskind of blanket statement is made.

I'm not understanding. But it would seem that SFC3 players would generally say they are treated as inferiors on these boards. I don't see it, I kind of see it as vanilla and chaocalate, some like one some like the other. I do know that as the cookie crumbled SFC3 has gotten the shaft support wise. But that pretty much was out of our control, and now with passing of Taldren virtually assures the continuation of "non support". Will there ever be an official patch? There certainly won't be the support that Taldren and David Ferrell have given to EAW and OP.

As far as the problems of grafting the SFC3 community into the existing SFC community, and then the further grafting of SFCC into the larger Star Trek gaming community, like attracts like. I like EAW and OP and I want to like SFC3 more but I havn't been able to complete the single player missions with a lot of understanding; SFC3 was just too much out of the box(as in thinking out of the box). The mechanics of the game are different, I didn't say worse; whixch turns me off. I do not own any other Trek games, I followed the development of KA on the old Interplay boards, but when it was released and then the team got fired or reassigned, well that was enough for me I wasn't getting a game that wasn't going to be supported. I bought SFC3 to give Taldren the benefit of the doubt and support. I enjoy watching the series but am not a consistent follower of them. Trek gaming is not an issue for me.

Like attracts like. I do not understand a guy like Age, who wants me wants me to ignore angular velocity by covering it up with a piece of tape. That just makes no sense to me. I would play OP with the ships as white blocks. It is nice that they look good and modders have done wonderful things, but the cool looking ships are not central to the game for me, the mechaniics are though., and the mechanics of EAW and OP make for a good game which I play more often than SFC3.

Like attracts like, there is no forcing community.

i would tend to disgree with you on that, but much of depends on how one defeines as being treated inferior?

If were talking simply about sheer numbers of people playing or mods avalible or what have you, then i think that if i played SFC# i would find a lesser overall interest in SFC3 than SFC2 or OP. But my post was in reply to part of Byzantine's Statement

Quote

Now. My thought on Nanners point.
Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it. But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game. Well. There it is. If you say the game is inferior you are pretty much saying the people who play it are inferior.

And i Responded

Quote

This is not true, and youre attributing a rather unpleasant affection to the B&P games which is unwaaranted by those who play SFC2 and OP. Some may not prefer the game of SFC3, i dont.But i do not now nor have i have i ever felt that those who want to play SFC3 "inferior". And i think its unfair to those who continue to play SFC2 that this kind of blanket statement is made.

As i said before this statement does not reflect of those who play SFC2 or OP in totality and its precisely this sort of blanket statement that simply throws gas on the fire. All of the merits of the respective games aside, they are two groups of people who play two different games. Further to my point simply because i or anyone may or may not a certain game system does not imply that we think poorly of anyone else that does. His statement merely widens an already opening rift between SFC2 and SFC3 players by ascribing feeling of a certain group of players (SFC2 & OP) to another (players of SFC3).

FPF-DieHard · « **Reply #76 on:** August 02, 2004, 07:49:42 am »

Quote from: KBF-Dogmatix_XC on August 01, 2004, 10:14:31 pm

Quote from: NannerSlug on August 01, 2004, 08:35:59 pm
kim, you are 100% on the money what i am talking about. i could get real detailed and messy about a similar situation which you guys went through, but i wont.

you can have different taste and nothing makes one more right than the other.

Seriously Nanner...let's hear it. I'm rather surprised by this. What happened?

It really wasn't that entertaining . . .

Hyperion · « **Reply #77 on:** August 02, 2004, 07:58:28 am »

Hello Byzantine

Just retorting here

Quote

1.Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it.
This is the attitude of most SFCx players and it is a fair attitude I think. Yes, if something lacks features that I want it is inferior - for my tastes. But other people have different tastes and that is fine. Most everyone who has been posting recently is in this class. And class does carry both meanings right here, it is a good thing.

I agree with you mostly on this one except for the use of 'inferior' and i think this is where our issue is.

Inferior:

Low or lower in order, degree, or rank: Captain is an inferior rank to major.

1.) Low or lower in quality, value, or estimation: inferior craft; felt inferior to his older sibling.
2.)Second-rate; poor: an inferior translation.
3.)Situated under or beneath.
4.)Botany. Located below the perianth and other floral parts. Used of an ovary.
5.)Anatomy. Located beneath or directed downward.
6.)Printing. Set below the normal line of type; subscript.
7.)Astronomy.
Orbiting between Earth and the sun: Mercury is an inferior planet.
Lying below the horizon.

8.) A person lower in rank, status, or accomplishment than another.
9.) Printing. An inferior character, such as the number 2 in CO2.

10.) Low or lower in order, degree, or rank.
11.) Low or lower in quality, value, or estimation.
12.) Second-rate; poor.
13.) Situated below or directed downward.
14.) In human anatomy, situated nearer the soles in relation to a reference point.

Whether SFCx is inferior or not is not the issue here, the game does work. However it doesnt become a matter of 'class' because im sure that on both sides of the issue there are people pointing to the obvious drawbacks in the opposing camps own 'game'. There are always going to be some who say because game system '"X" is inferior because etc...etc but that also crosses the SFCx series lines equally.

Quote

2.But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game.
Cleaven is right, for some peoples tastes SFC3 is a lesser game in their personal estimation. The problem is in the way this is said. I preffer SFCx because I like X and/or I don't like SFCx because X Good. I prefer SFCx because SFCx is an inferior game Not so good. Bluntly, who died and made the speaker of this God so that they had a right to define superior/inferior in universal terms? This is the attitude of a small minority but people of this type often tend to be very opinionated, contentious, and noisy. They also tend to be the type who get banned a lot, maybe that is why this thread has been much more civil and on track.

For the time being ill avoid the issue of Grognard (ive nevr like that word)

But in your point 2:
Personal opinion is just that and when i saw the pre-release news for SFC3 on the Taldren boards it was comparable some days to a back alley knife fight,with terms like "dumbing down" and "SFC is not SFB" etc etc. What we have here today in these boards is really nothing comapred to that. However as for who has the "rgiht to define"? in terms of gameplay and game serieswe all make that detrmination on dailiy basis and not just with games but in our "real" lives as well. Why do we think that would change when we come here?

The object is debate, in this case SFC2 & OP vs. SFC3. It's a deabte that will simply go on and on with no real end. And there are always people on both sides who will make some regetable satements with regards to whether or not SFCx is piece of crap. I dont think anyone "died" on either side but if someone does in fact try to take this stance (and they are out there on both sides) if they offer what they think is proof in terms on an intellectual balance of the two games then go in and defend your respective SFC. But if some one is just Trolling dont even botherwith them, we all know this.

The point is that there are two diffrent communities here,not one. And although the "Twain" meet from time to time its not very often.

Personally they only wasy this is ever going to be solved is when (if) another SFC is put out and whether is based on SFC3 or SFC2:OP

Hexx · « **Reply #78 on:** August 02, 2004, 01:44:47 pm »

Wow and to think that I got told i should come over here and read stuff.

As a (somewhat lessr important) D2 player I've never felt or even heard anything negative about the SFC3. Personally I don't care for it, but I have promised myself that sometime soon I'm actually going to load it up again and try out some of the mods. To be honest I think many D2ers simply consider SFC3 another game, much as we'd consider Bridge Commander or Elite Force another game. It doesn't really effect us. That certainely doesn't mean that we think less of it or of the people who play it.

Kim- I'm still not sure what happened to you, I do hope you're happy(ier) playing whatver it is you're playing these days. As one of the D2ers who doesn't really care what the SSCF does with it's free time I'd love to see you back someday.

Age -as perhaps the leading contributer to the "bash Age" posts I suppose I should apologize, but I'm not really going to.
Simply as an example (as mentioned above) the infamous BCE post- you posted it was a great ship (best BCH ). we told you it wasn't AND explained why. You told us we were wrong and that we didn't realize how to read the displays. I (I won't even use we here) said we weren't wrong , you were, and that ANYTIME YOU GOT ONLINE ANYONE WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO SHOW YOU HOW TO FLY THE SHIPS.
Then you left and now seem to be complaining about the D2'ers. ( If you're not then I do humbly apologize)
At no time (that I can tell) did we say "go away" or anything rude.
It was all explained to you, and again you were told when you got online people would be happy to hook up with you and show you multiplayer tactics.
Now you're over here saying (or implying) that we should be banned?

I'm actaully not going to write anything else (yeah me!) beacause it would only contribute to this thread going way downhill..

Byzantine · « **Reply #79 on:** August 02, 2004, 07:42:02 pm »

Hi Hyperion,
I have a bad habit of using too many words to get to a point and that often clouds the issue much to my own detriment. But I usually do have a point so...

Quote from: Hyperion on August 02, 2004, 07:58:28 am

Hello Byzantine

Quote
1.Most SFC2 people say they don't play SFC3 because they do not like it, it is not their cup of tea, it is not their style, it lacks things that they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking that or saying it.
This is the attitude of most SFCx players and it is a fair attitude I think. Yes, if something lacks features that I want it is inferior - for my tastes. But other people have different tastes and that is fine. Most everyone who has been posting recently is in this class. And class does carry both meanings right here, it is a good thing.

I agree with you mostly on this one except for the use of 'inferior' and i think this is where our issue is.

Inferior:

Low or lower in order, degree, or rank: Captain is an inferior rank to major.

1.) Low or lower in quality, value, or estimation: inferior craft; felt inferior to his older sibling.
2.)Second-rate; poor: an inferior translation.
3.)Situated under or beneath.
4.)Botany. Located below the perianth and other floral parts. Used of an ovary.
5.)Anatomy. Located beneath or directed downward.
6.)Printing. Set below the normal line of type; subscript.
7.)Astronomy.
Orbiting between Earth and the sun: Mercury is an inferior planet.
Lying below the horizon.

8.) A person lower in rank, status, or accomplishment than another.
9.) Printing. An inferior character, such as the number 2 in CO2.

10.) Low or lower in order, degree, or rank.
11.) Low or lower in quality, value, or estimation.
12.) Second-rate; poor.
13.) Situated below or directed downward.
14.) In human anatomy, situated nearer the soles in relation to a reference point.

Whether SFCx is inferior or not is not the issue here, the game does work. However it doesnt become a matter of 'class' because im sure that on both sides of the issue there are people pointing to the obvious drawbacks in the opposing camps own 'game'. There are always going to be some who say because game system '"X" is inferior because etc...etc but that also crosses the SFCx series lines equally.

Unclear statement and poor choice of words by me. I should not have used 'inferior'. My intent would be item 10 in your definition list. I think we all keep a game ranking of some sorts in our heads, a subjective qualitative rank for our own use. And to me the method of debate/expression is a matter of class - see part 2.

Quote

Quote
2.But there is that Grognard element in the SFB/SFC2 camp who say it this way - I don't like SFC3 because it lacks these things that I want/expect and it is therefore an inferior game.
Cleaven is right, for some peoples tastes SFC3 is a lesser game in their personal estimation. The problem is in the way this is said. I preffer SFCx because I like X and/or I don't like SFCx because X Good. I prefer SFCx because SFCx is an inferior game Not so good. Bluntly, who died and made the speaker of this God so that they had a right to define superior/inferior in universal terms? This is the attitude of a small minority but people of this type often tend to be very opinionated, contentious, and noisy. They also tend to be the type who get banned a lot, maybe that is why this thread has been much more civil and on track.

For the time being ill avoid the issue of Grognard (ive nevr like that word)

But in your point 2:
Personal opinion is just that and when i saw the pre-release news for SFC3 on the Taldren boards it was comparable some days to a back alley knife fight,with terms like "dumbing down" and "SFC is not SFB" etc etc. What we have here today in these boards is really nothing comapred to that. However as for who has the "rgiht to define"? in terms of gameplay and game serieswe all make that detrmination on dailiy basis and not just with games but in our "real" lives as well. Why do we think that would change when we come here?

The object is debate, in this case SFC2 & OP vs. SFC3. It's a deabte that will simply go on and on with no real end. And there are always people on both sides who will make some regetable satements with regards to whether or not SFCx is piece of crap. I dont think anyone "died" on either side but if someone does in fact try to take this stance (and they are out there on both sides) if they offer what they think is proof in terms on an intellectual balance of the two games then go in and defend your respective SFC. But if some one is just Trolling dont even botherwith them, we all know this.

I think I agree with what you are saying. I need to dump that word inferior - it causes confusion. My point: debating a game on its features and implementation of features is good (class). To express a personal preference based on that debate is fine (class). To say game X is inferior (ie, crappy, bad) and then leave it at that is not constructive and no good (trolling). No, I have not personally seen any of that here by either camp but I am new.

And this, 'However as for who has the "rgiht to define"? in terms of gameplay and game serieswe all make that detrmination on dailiy basis and not just with games but in our "real" lives as well.' this is the personal ranking described in part 1.

Basically I was just trying to say debate is good, trolling is bad. I used too many words to say that.

Quote

The point is that there are two diffrent communities here,not one. And although the "Twain" meet from time to time its not very often.

Personally they only wasy this is ever going to be solved is when (if) another SFC is put out and whether is based on SFC3 or SFC2:OP

There are two separate games but there is enough overlap in the community to be sonsidered significant I think. It stands to reason because of subject matter and portability of design elements (ship models etc) between the games. I think the sharing of players and models between multiple Trek based platforms is a good thing (synergy) and I don't really understand why there should be any problems. Which gets me to my last point.

I started this thread with no dog in the fight so to speak. I think all versions of SFC have been or become good games in time and I think SFC/OP remains the best platform for SFB style gaming. I have not personally seen animosity between SFC3 and SFC/OP players as groups. But I have respect for Nanner and he seemed troubled by something. And I did not like the way his previous thread was hijacked. I thought with the silencing of some off-tangent voices the subject might be broached again and Nanner and others might have the opportunity to clearly state their case or grievance.

At this point in time we now have several irons in the fire (WT, UNITY, STGD, 11th Fleet). I don't know if they are separate issues or if they are in any way related to Nanner's issue. I do know that a number of participants in those other issues are very good at noisemaking and hijacking and so it remains an open question in my mind if Nanner has clearly stated his case or if he has been caught up in this perfect storm and nobody understands exactly what he is trying to say and why.

Because of all the smoke in the air from these other issues I am still looking for clarity.

P.S. My wargaming started on SPI Napoleonic games so I like Grognard.

I, Mudd · « **Reply #80 on:** August 02, 2004, 08:07:15 pm »

The problem isn't SFC 2/op/3 ...

... it's SFB vs Trek canon that's the true rift. These two camps don't seem to mix well on any level.

... and to take it a step further, it's era related, as well. Don't believe me, go to Trek.BBS, all the general topics are split up by era ...

... pretty much like SFC2 and 3/d2 and d3 here. Read a few entries there. They don't always get along either.

TOS/TMP vs TNG+. Kirk vs. Picard. Generation gaps are nothing new, however, and it's not the world.

The world is full of differences in taste and opinions, yet amazingly, no one seems to be willing to accept that simple fact of life.

For the record, I'm a TOS/SFB D2er who finds SFC3 a let down. Of course, folks are folks, no matter what they play. It's their attitudes who define who they are, not their taste in sci-fi computer games.

I, Mudd.

Durin · « **Reply #81 on:** August 02, 2004, 08:46:44 pm »

Quote from: FireSoul

Kim, were you on board within the forums for the people or for the game? Perhaps you should consider that these boards exist because of a game, first, and to allow people with common interest for that game to come together, second.

People don't want to be babysit, they're not here for that. They're here to come together because of games they like, and they will display their opinions and emotions in all ways.

Personally, I like you as a player and as a contributrice to this group of people, but your reaction to us and such since the mishap involving my OP+ project makes me think you were here more for the people than for the game. I would enjoy to see you online and play with us again, but not on here like this participating in a way that keeps saying that you don't want to be with us.

Be in it for the game.. (looks up at pretty graphic)..
'It's all about the game."

-- Luc
FireSoul

I'm intrigued by this view FS.If it wasn't for the people I have came across here I wouldn't be playing this game for this long.Its the people and the interaction with said people that keeps me going. Other than that all I need do is fire up the single player game and have at it.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #82 on:** August 02, 2004, 11:32:36 pm »

the dwarf is correct, as usual.

Whoo · « **Reply #83 on:** August 03, 2004, 07:16:30 am »

Well, it's an interesting read for certain.
Forums are a funny thing, believe me I know

I honestly doubt there is any true animosity between any people here, but per the norm most is lost between harsh opinions and mis-understood posts.
SFC for the most part is what you see here, with a few stragglers hanging around outside in GSA and leagues.
The game it-self is dead, there will be no great revivals, no surge in player base. It's soul survival will depend on the remaining die hards who simply love the community, the game and the mediums which they communicate with.
Forums can be the life or death of a community, and I have seen both ends of the spectrum. My advice to SFC3'rs and SFC:OP'rs is to simply accept each version of the game for what it is, don't judge one side or the other, and keep going strong.

This games survival rests on all your shoulders, so make the most of it.

Capt Jeff · « **Reply #84 on:** August 03, 2004, 07:36:15 am »

Have to agree with Durin and Nannerslug.

It's the people that have kept me around and playing online.

Bashing anyone's favorite online game is silly. Everyone has their own personal tastes and no matter how you feel, others might just feel differently.

I have EAW, OP, and SFC3 on my HD. I play OP 99% of the time. It's my "cup of tea". I understand, though, that it may not be other's cup of tea, and I respect that.

That is all that is needed, is a little respect for other people's feeling when it comes to these games.

I am gratefuil that Dave F continued to patch OP to 2552. I am also gratefull that the latest builds of the SFC3 patch was made available as well and am happy for the people that are enjoying the outstanding efforts Taldren made at fixing bugs right up to their last minute.

The games are different. Leave it at that. There is no real reason to agrue with other people why one part of one game is better then a part of the other game (read: AV vs EW).

I used to go to some family reunions when I was younger. Now, I am from mid-Michigan, but close to Detroit and all the auto plants. Some of my relatives worked in those plants, and I would have to hear the Ford vs Chevy arguements over and over. But, at the end of the day, everyone was still family, as we are here. Agree to disagree over what is "Best" and enjoy that fact that people here, no matter what game is their favorite is, is having fun.

Rolling · « **Reply #85 on:** August 03, 2004, 07:46:21 am »

I only come here and play the game because of the people.

The game itself has become very boring to me.

FVA_C_ Blade_ XC · « **Reply #86 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:55:33 am »

Quote from: Rolling on August 03, 2004, 07:46:21 am

I only come here and play the game because of the people.

The game itself has become very boring to me.

HERITIC!

Burn the witch!

* FVA_C_Blade_XC runs

Sirgod · « **Reply #87 on:** August 03, 2004, 11:08:54 am »

Quote from: FVA_C_Blade_XC on August 03, 2004, 10:55:33 am

Quote from: Rolling on August 03, 2004, 07:46:21 am
I only come here and play the game because of the people.

The game itself has become very boring to me.

HERITIC!

Burn the witch!

* FVA_C_Blade_XC runs

Lookout Blade, Here she comes.

Stephen

Bonk · « **Reply #88 on:** August 03, 2004, 01:16:51 pm »

I,Mudd nailed it in his post above.

I'm reminded of a "Red Green" skit where Red teases Harold about arguing on the internet over whether Kirk or Picard was better... makes me realise just how much of a geek I really am... we all are.

I posted on NannerSlug's thread but will repeat the sentiment here, can't we all share in our beloved geekiness without being insulting? There are lots of benefits (models, server tricks... etc).

I remember one of the the most shocking and scary flamefests that ever occurred on our forums, it was between two prominent D2ers, they have since made amends, much to my relief and nothing has matched it since and I'm glad.

_Rondo_GE The OutLaw · « **Reply #89 on:** August 03, 2004, 03:02:21 pm »

Quote from: Whoo on August 03, 2004, 07:16:30 am

Well, it's an interesting read for certain.
Forums are a funny thing, believe me I know
I honestly doubt there is any true animosity between any people here, but per the norm most is lost between harsh opinions and mis-understood posts.
SFC for the most part is what you see here, with a few stragglers hanging around outside in GSA and leagues.
The game it-self is dead, there will be no great revivals, no surge in player base. It's soul survival will depend on the remaining die hards who simply love the community, the game and the mediums which they communicate with.
Forums can be the life or death of a community, and I have seen both ends of the spectrum. My advice to SFC3'rs and SFC:OP'rs is to simply accept each version of the game for what it is, don't judge one side or the other, and keep going strong.

This games survival rests on all your shoulders, so make the most of it.

Ahh, a nice bit of wisdom inserted here.

Problem with SFC3er and SFC2ers(et al) is that they do not have the same values as far as gaming goes. About the only thing they share in common is the word Star Trek and the rest is window dressing.

And then there are the D 2 or 3 ers vs people that like to play this game person to person all the time.

And then there are the modellers and the scriptors/coders and modders and

and...

and...

and...

...we are a fragmented community with no clear majority anymore.

So what SHAALLLL we talk about?

Perhaps it starts when someone who likes to do a certain thing comes in here and says "say I would like to do this" and someone else doesn't respond by saying "no you can't".

My two cents.

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #90 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:40:26 pm »

Quote from: Rolling on August 02, 2004, 05:06:11 am

More and more people are saying they remember the incident, others refuse to believe it existed.

Some don't want to hear that such a thing could have ever here.

And others have proven the point that you can't be different, or say anything different, without being whipped back into the line.

I've been guilty myself of having bad feelings towards the D3ers!!! There, I'm the first one to admit it!!!

I already said I remember it happeneing..but I didn't think much of it at the time as I knew the "news" posted by that person (whoever it was0 was meaningless BS.

I just don't remember too much of the details, because...well...whoopty-doo..there's more important stuff in my life that that incident. Sue me! lol...

I don't bury my head in the sand...I just dont believe that the majority of the people in this community feel the way that person who did this foul deed felt. I'm sure there are a few people who do. I just think they are a minority. Educate me...who are all these people that feel a gaming fleet must only play one game?

KBF-Dogmatix_XC · « **Reply #91 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:45:00 pm »

Quote from: Durin on August 02, 2004, 08:46:44 pm

Quote from: FireSoul

Kim, were you on board within the forums for the people or for the game? Perhaps you should consider that these boards exist because of a game, first, and to allow people with common interest for that game to come together, second.

People don't want to be babysit, they're not here for that. They're here to come together because of games they like, and they will display their opinions and emotions in all ways.

Personally, I like you as a player and as a contributrice to this group of people, but your reaction to us and such since the mishap involving my OP+ project makes me think you were here more for the people than for the game. I would enjoy to see you online and play with us again, but not on here like this participating in a way that keeps saying that you don't want to be with us.

Be in it for the game.. (looks up at pretty graphic)..
'It's all about the game."

-- Luc
FireSoul

I'm intrigued by this view FS.If it wasn't for the people I have came across here I wouldn't be playing this game for this long.Its the people and the interaction with said people that keeps me going. Other than that all I need do is fire up the single player game and have at it.

I'm right there with ya man...I've said this a number of times. If all I had was the game, I probably would have stopped playing it aged ago. I keep coming back for the people and the conversations. Most of the time, this place is a good time.

Julin Eurthyr · « **Reply #92 on:** August 04, 2004, 12:38:22 am »

Question:

Litterbox 5 was conceived as an experiment to get the 2 communities closer. What was, in your opinion, the overall result of that campaign?

I know I tried D3 a couple of times, and got whomped on by the AI as my usual tactics (obliques, phaser reliance, etc.) don't work, and there were no Roms on to help me...

Also, as Coalition Supreme Commander, I tried to learn some of the overall mechanics of D3, to assist me in the planning phases. I did learn a couple of names from forum posts, but not much about the people over there.

But, I did learn that my overall perception of the D3, which was built during the great SFC 2 / SFB vs. SFC 3 wars of a 1 1/2 years ago hasn't completely gone away. I thought it funny, but sad, when a D3 Alliance player comes over to the D3 Coalition camp to chew out a player over a (possibly imagined) rules violation, and he was using 2-3 server old actions as his "reinforcement" of the case. And supposedly the D3 was avoiding these cases by copying the RM system from D2...

I'm sure I'll be over again one day. Possibly on a Borg-including campaign. Hopefully, when I try this again I'll find opener arms to both help me learn how to fly, and cut my teeth in fair combat...

Until then, because these 2 communities are so radically different, I've adopted a certain attitude. Let the D3 people do their thing. I do mine with the D2 crowd. Those who come over to D2 to play, are treated with the same respect that any new or old player deserves. Those that bash on us, especially over issues that are close to 2 years old, better expect no mercy.

benbean · « **Reply #93 on:** August 06, 2004, 11:32:42 pm »

**Stands up**

My name is ben, and I play video games.

I leave polotics to polotitians.

**Sits down**

Rod ONeal · « **Reply #94 on:** August 07, 2004, 12:41:36 am »

Quote from: benbean on August 06, 2004, 11:32:42 pm

**Stands up**

My name is ben, and I play video games.

I leave polotics to polotitians.

**Sits down**

Amen, Ben. The problem now is that the politics of SFC have evolved and we now have lobbyists and spin doctors as well. As with real world politics they have become the cancer for our little society. Exhaggerating, stretching the truth, and unfortunately, outright lying. It's a sad state of affairs.

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #95 on:** August 07, 2004, 01:04:46 am »

But Rod...on a positive note...we are now aware of what used to go on below the radar for many of us.....

Forewarned...is forearmed...

I for one have no intentions of going anywhere for a very long time...and I'm armed with reality.....ready to smack down the smacktards...

It's said that a lie can fly around the world before the truth get's its pants on....it would appear to be more than anicdote...

Rod ONeal · « **Reply #96 on:** August 07, 2004, 01:18:22 am »

Well Crim, looks like you and I will be knowing each other for quite some time then. Right here! They couldn't get me out of here with a bulldozer and a stick of dynamite.

News:

Topic: What was Nanner trying to say? (Read 17517 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Topic: What was Nanner trying to say? (Read 17517 times)