Topic: New Reman Warbird

[pepperman]

Something along these lines then?

[Fallen_Warrior]

Yeah pretty much

[starship]

Very good Dr. Pepper.

[pepperman]

FW...is this what you had in mind for the bottom hull?  Personally, I like the cruiser idea better over the carrier.  The bottom hull just doesn't work for me.  Also, you mentioned textures in the earlier part of the thread, did you ever finish them?

[Fallen_Warrior]

Yep pretty much.. As for textures, no I don't have them, but I can help out here and there. Just PM or email me.

[pepperman]

Laying a few panel lines

[Atolm-Rising]

Awesome!
if you could extrude some of the feathers you'll have some amazing stuff, but its up to you

[KBF_Gow]

Awesome!
if you could extrude some of the feathers you'll have some amazing stuff, but its up to you

or not.  Bird shaped paintjobs are one thing, mechanical birds in space are absurd.

Im not knocking the obvious talent of the maker.  Very nice work.

Just that the concept is japanimation and extruded feathers would just make it worse.  Fine line between "ooh bird inspired starship" and "OOOh robot space bird" that too many modelmakers have crossed.

[Fallen_Warrior]

I'm with Azel here, we always envisioned the same sort of stacked plates to show that like the Scimitar the wings would open up when in combat situations... As well as the bulk of the dual hulls the wings themselves would also provide cover.

Plus when I was asked earlier how the wings are........

As for the wings... Similar to the Scimitar but more tiered (stacked wing plates).....

[pepperman]

Right now this vesion won't be able to go there as she is low poly 2176 ish.  A lot more polys for that, I'm sure.

[Fallen_Warrior]

Maybe cheating... give me a sec

Edit (to save double post)

These areas I've marked out in red... Maybe just selecting and then thickening them out... It wouldn't add to many polies  too much but would help give the appearance some extra bulk maybe?

[pepperman]

I agree it wouldn't necessarily add to many polys; however considering the current layout of the mesh a fair amount of work would be involved.

[Fallen_Warrior]

What about maybe just adding some extra bulk to the wings by using separate objects.... You know some open ended boxes?

[Atolm-Rising]

Awesome!
if you could extrude some of the feathers you'll have some amazing stuff, but its up to you

or not.  Bird shaped paintjobs are one thing, mechanical birds in space are absurd.

Im not knocking the obvious talent of the maker.  Very nice work.

Just that the concept is japanimation and extruded feathers would just make it worse.  Fine line between "ooh bird inspired starship" and "OOOh robot space bird" that too many modelmakers have crossed.

That would be your opinion mate, but it does not speak for everyone...  TNG Romulan and Reman aesthetic is as such that they do "cross the line", because it is evident on screen, that by that time (at least for them), they can make their ships in such a way as to blend their respective cultural and artistic aesthetics with their functional ones.  You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek. 

[marstone]

You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek.

Hmm, this is the reason that unless I like a design I don't say anything.  Many really don't want a critic on the work.

[Atolm-Rising]

You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek.

Hmm, this is the reason that unless I like a design I don't say anything.  Many really don't want a critic on the work.

I wasn't addressing his critique, which was made, I was addressing his views  on the design.
Critiquing someone's work is simple matter of addressing the work, which Gow did, but then he voiced the "absurdity" of style, which is no longer about the work, its about what he prefers and nothing else can fit (personal preference, which is fine, but the way it was presented was shallow and pointless).
So Critique = good
Rant = bad
make sense?

[marstone]

You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek.

Hmm, this is the reason that unless I like a design I don't say anything.  Many really don't want a critic on the work.

I wasn't addressing his critique, which was made, I was addressing his views  on the design.
Critiquing someone's work is simple matter of addressing the work, which Gow did, but then he voiced the "absurdity" of style, which is no longer about the work, its about what he prefers and nothing else can fit (personal preference, which is fine, but the way it was presented was shallow and pointless).
So Critique = good
Rant = bad
make sense?

Makes sense but, part of a critic can also be the basis of it.  It is like a critic of a movie, technically it may be the best one out there (like the work on the model) but if it isn't appealing to the eye or senses (the design) it will get a bad critic.  Everyone has different tastes that is true.  I am one along the lines I don't like the bird Rom and Reman ship style.  His statement to me seemed more along the lines of that a ships that is so designed to look like a bird, is an unlikely thing in the ST overall.  Just like I dislike klingon BOP's they are only in there because the script got leaked out and they reshot the inside stuff with Klingon instead of Romulan, but sense the CGI stuff was done and costs more the reshooting some scenes Klingons got a BOP to use.

So as said, I try not to critic, as it will include a personal opinion.  Now I have said, damn, nice ship wish I liked that style.  I have always been impressed with the modelers here, they are awesome, but sadly I will probably only use a few of the ships as most are "crap" style, in my tastes for fantasy ships.  Last word, he could have stated it better tho.

[Atolm-Rising]

Exactly.
I agree with you.   Just remember that Tact is everything... how something is presented is just as important as the something itself, otherwise you sound(doesn't mean you are) like a fanatic.  Thus, instead of helping with constructive criticisms, you are getting rants of personal bs that doesn't apply to anything, and one word "says nothings", like "awesome", or ''sucks".  Both say nothing but a person's like or dislike of something, rather than offer a critique, or a well thought-out opinion.

[KBF_Gow]

You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek.

Hmm, this is the reason that unless I like a design I don't say anything.  Many really don't want a critic on the work.

I wasn't addressing his critique, which was made, I was addressing his views  on the design.
Critiquing someone's work is simple matter of addressing the work, which Gow did, but then he voiced the "absurdity" of style, which is no longer about the work, its about what he prefers and nothing else can fit (personal preference, which is fine, but the way it was presented was shallow and pointless).
So Critique = good
Rant = bad
make sense?

You said amazing, I said absurd.   Simply polar opinion viewpoints on the design if extruded feathers were added.

Not much has changed in this forum,  same stuff, different names.   The designer of this ship made a thread about views vs commentary and the fact nothing is ever said.

Being called shallow and pointless is a prime example.  Always the same.  Make a statement about a design, and you get a statement regarding your personal character.  My opinion is the opposite of Atolm, therefore, it cannot be "well thought out".  He assumes I am all hot about the issue, and nothing is farther from the truth.   

I stand by my comments.  There is a fine line between presenting a technically viable starship design on a bird motif, and presenting a gigantic robot bird.   I didn't care for Ricks Knox's RBC for the same reason, and it isn't Reman, its just bird gone too far.

shrug.

[Atolm-Rising]

Oh BTW Pep, i like your interpretation of that ventral hull structure on my ship, very cool

[Atolm-Rising]

You may not like it, but you can preserve your ideology for your own models    .  Besides, Fiction is just that, Fiction, as such, I wouldn't get all hot and heated about form vs function, especially in Trek.

Hmm, this is the reason that unless I like a design I don't say anything.  Many really don't want a critic on the work.

I wasn't addressing his critique, which was made, I was addressing his views  on the design.
Critiquing someone's work is simple matter of addressing the work, which Gow did, but then he voiced the "absurdity" of style, which is no longer about the work, its about what he prefers and nothing else can fit (personal preference, which is fine, but the way it was presented was shallow and pointless).
So Critique = good
Rant = bad
make sense?

You said amazing, I said absurd.   Simply polar opinion viewpoints on the design if extruded feathers were added.

Not much has changed in this forum,  same stuff, different names.   The designer of this ship made a thread about views vs commentary and the fact nothing is ever said.

Being called shallow and pointless is a prime example.  Always the same.  Make a statement about a design, and you get a statement regarding your personal character. 

shrug.

in Balok's voice... LOL

[Fedman NCC-3758]

If I may, just a thought.   How about a slight Klingon influence to the dorsal.

I'm thinking a more "muscular" look.

[KBF_Gow]

Seriously, you want a discussion based solely on the merits of the construction of designs and not on the overall artistic impression of same?

Opinions always weigh in, in all arts and crafts, and I consider this to be one.

Paintings aren't judged that way,  Neither is furniture.  Overall aesthetics have always been a part of the mix along with technical competence.

There will always be a component of a person's individual likes and dislikes in a critique.  Critique that stifles that is not critique.

Even comments on a purely technical basis are determined by the individual.  Commentary on the size of a fed deflector dish is still based on a persons individual feelings on how much trektech really matters to them.

Narrowing commentary to purely non offensive, non personal opinions means "no comment", which is exactly the situation this board has had since it's inception on the Taldren site.

And I am done, since this is purely a fanatical rant by a shallow and pointless troublemaker.. amirite?

[Fallen_Warrior]

Woah Woah... Back up Gow... First off.

 The designer of this ship made a thread about views vs commentary and the fact nothing is ever said.

I'm the person who started the View's Vs Comments thread... So don't get your wires crossed and use the bias felt towards my point of view affect your bias of Azel/Atlom's point of view........ Yes everything is in the wording. But now since you've made an incorrect example. Perhaps a reword of your post or something that doesn't suggest your current line of approach. This is very dangerous ground when it comes to aesthetic ideas in construction. While yes we all have an idea of how we each perceive something within Trek. They are not always compatible.. You have the ability to make your models how you want. Which is awesome, Its taken me 8 years to get as far as I have. So you have the right to stand up for your perception of Trek..... Same with Azel/Atlom defending his.... But butting heads and trying to show off who has a thicker cranium gets us nowhere.

And Like you said: We avoid the issues and do the same old stuff..... Well perhaps if we were to come to I dunno a conclusion of not to snap each other's heads off for mentioning the name NX-Class or anything that divides us. We might be able to expand our ideas. Beyond rehashing the same old designs....... Get my drift?

Seriously, you want a discussion based solely on the merits of the construction of designs and not on the overall artistic impression of same?

No a blend of both is fine. 

Narrowing commentary to purely non offensive, non personal opinions means "no comment", which is exactly the situation this board has had since it's inception on the Taldren site.

And I am done, since this is purely a fanatical rant by a shallow and pointless troublemaker.. amirite?

No it was the whole point of my views vs comments thread. It was to promote discussion as a community and not a bunch of stagnant relics obsessed with details some a fictitious show. And to find a way of us working as a team to avoid making mistakes like misunderstandings because of incorrect pre conceptions (right now been an example) So we could push past the standard boundaries without everything seeming like an insult... Which no offence you seem to take.

And since your done commenting on a "fanatical and pointless troublemaker"....... Might I point out how shall I say it.... Your own stubborn stance of your own convictions.... Just as I stand by mine. So do we have to fight?


Second. As for my thread. If its some sort problem or issue for you, (you refer to it often enough) perhaps adding some more views on there or PMing me. Either way lets not attack each other in public because of a simple difference of opinion. Or detract the topic away from Peppers fantastic work.


Lastly I must point out After my little rant.... If it has come across as overly harsh its because I'm running on very little sleep. Anyway:

Pepper has asked Myself and Azel/Atlom for advice on a design we collaborated on over 4 years ago. He only has 2 images to work on and has done exceptional work. If Pepper decides he wants smooth wings then so be it. It is his creation now.
Maybe he might give permission for me to make some modifications for those of use who might enjoy something with a bit more "excessive detailing" if he goes down this route.
However he might feel adventurous and try something. I await the next update

[KBF_Gow]

Well.  I made a comment about a design trend, one that goes way back, and one I made when Rick created his RBC for the D2 Pack.   Not that it matters now.

For that, I get a pile of personal garbage, comments about pettyness and pointlessness, fanatacism, tactlessness, getting all hot, ranting, et al.

Atolm gets... nothing for spouting that crap at me, over a simple difference in artistic viewpoints.  Baloks Voice LOL?

Cliquish Hypocrisy.  I won't stand for a double standard or being condescendingly lectured at for having an opinion while others are allowed free rein in their commentary.

So, my ships are gone, and so am I.   I will lurk, like so many others.

Fun while it lasted.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

How utterly amazing and pathetic at the same time.

I'm taking my wittle ships and leaving.  So there.


How about we just enjoy the game and when one is slighted it just gets ignored.

Or is that asking way to much of adults?


If it is, then be well and happy trails.  ::tips hat::

[Atolm-Rising]

Fedman is right.
We should be having a ball.
Gow, you want to bounce, then bounce... but if you do not realize the simple ideology that its, "not what you say, but how you say it"  that changes a critique into an opinionated statement, then you should go and lurk.  I try not to get into heated BS in this and many communities, as I understand that typing a reply is not the most efficient means of communication, and a lot of the nuances seem to get lost, so I let it slide (hell it has even happen to me and gotten me bitten back).  But I won't let silly statements about art become commonplace.  If you personally like something a certain way, then offer up the suggestions, but remember that the artist will most likely already have the vision that they are going for, and they may not be asking for advice on changing it other than minor things like colour, or hard points, size etc...  I offered the, 'extrude some feathers if possible' comment, because me being the original designer, envisioned something along those lines, but as its not my mesh, Pep has all the right to follow his feelings on how he wants the design.  The ship already is obviously too Bird/Bat-like to be changed into something simpler or to fit previous eras, thus making Gow's comment shallow, because he didn't take the design's ideology into consideration.  I don't have a problem with a person liking things a certain way, as so do I, and many, many times my ideology will and has conflicted with others, but that doesn't make it a "line that has been crossed all to often", or "Japanese anime".  So yes it is an opinion, but it was not articulated well. thus coming out opinionated.  Nothing that I have stated has not been stated many, many times... by me and others here.  This is an old issue, so lets please move on.
Again Gow, if you feel you need to pack-up and bounce, then do it.  But don't do it because feel you have been personally attacked, as that was not my intent, and I apologize, if My Balok's laugh offended you when I was just trying to make light of the situation before it got to this level.  Its not a "double standard", but rather it is the standard, that critiquing and even more so, constructive criticism are helpful, but if the tone of the statement reads poorly, then it will be perceived as such.
So don't leave Gow, Keep making the ships how You envision them. 

BTW my sincere apologies to everyone in this thread, and especially to Pepperman, for dragging this, this far.

[pepperman]

Lots of good dialog...which can be good in my opinion.  I never take offense to this stuff becasue as a moddler I am always trying to improve.  Rest assured I do this to have fun.  Here's what I am thinking for a way ahead for these beastie:  Keep the version I have to date, lose the lower hull and release to the commmunity as it is low poly version (less than 2000). Only cosmetic additions remain.   Improve the SFC/BC version cause I am interested in seeing the effect of the raised panels on the wings.  I don't think the current version can be jury rigged to make that happen.  So along those lines does this seem reasonable WRT to the wings.

Along the lines of the layered concept, what I hear you all say is that the wing should be setup so that it depicts varies thicknesses for the sections.  In the diagram below, I have marked out five sections for this layering effect.
Section A is the thinnest section
Section A is thinner than section B
Section B is thinner than section C
Section C is thinner than section D
Section D is thinner than section E
Section E (the engine section) is the thickest section.

Is this closer to what you had in mind FW and Atolm?

I beleive that Section B and C could easliy be combined!

Thoughts and opinions welcome....also a few shots to show how it looks without all the panel lines draw, a few disruptor cannons added and the lower hull removed.

Good news though...I am loving working on the Reman ship...anymore Reman designs out there.  lol

[marstone]

Well.  I made a comment about a design trend, one that goes way back, and one I made when Rick created his RBC for the D2 Pack.   Not that it matters now.

For that, I get a pile of personal garbage, comments about pettyness and pointlessness, fanatacism, tactlessness, getting all hot, ranting, et al.

Atolm gets... nothing for spouting that crap at me, over a simple difference in artistic viewpoints.  Baloks Voice LOL?

now, I believe Gow is going alittle overboard on this but I do agree with his point.  Being that when you post a wip you are usually not looking for comments on how to make your model in the technical sense.  You are looking for the "how does this look and what does it need" replies.  So when you get a response that said "I think the design is horrible" that person is jumped on, but if you say "Damn, nice design, maybe add" that is considered a good response.  I have seen some ships I could never comment on as I truely hated the design, can't give a do this to make it better because I think the bit bucket is the place for the ship. 

One person truly voiced his opinion on the ship and did get rode hard for it.  I can understand a person trying to say "you are wasting your time and talent on a piece of crap".  I used to give true artistic advice to people.  I had people I knew, and some friends ask my advise on a drawing they are working on.  I would say usually "It is very good, but . . . your depth is off here, the hand needs rework here, and the leg is out of proportion with the body in this way.  Then I would get back a quip like, well can you do better.  I would answer "no, that is why I don't draw anymore".  I find that most people want to hear the good and not even a constructive critic that would make them better.

[Fallen_Warrior]

Pepper, I think the changes to the wings work, you've got the segregation of the wing sections right, you might have to tweak the textures slightly to reflect the changes in the mesh.. (A textured panel that intersects or overlaps in places might throw off the affect)

I can't tell from the pics, did you just rescale each section? Or did you extrude/intrude each section to create the desired affect?

As for my eariler comment's. And please don't use this as a way of detracting from the Model.

I suggest that when it comes to possible and probable discussions that involve..... Differing opinions? Where people maybe clash over things like here (style vs purpose, textures vs polies as examples). Maybe be moved over to my Comments vs View's or start a new thread where we can maybe try to work things out without "hi-jacking" threads? And where we as a group can work things out with the mods. (which is what Bonk was trying to suggest when he stepped in on that thread)