Topic: Russians will be the first to mine the moon  (Read 8604 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2005, 03:23:32 pm »
of course He III is stable. if not it would not be able to accumulate on the moon for billions of years. as you know we have to manufacture tritium because it decays in ten years and so does not occur naturally in nature.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2005, 03:24:23 pm »
OK, finally got the ol "rubber bible" out (1988 edition):

2He3 has a natural abundance of 0.00014%, is a stable isotope, has a thermal neutron cross section of <0.1 mb (aye there's the rub...) a spin of 1/2 (a bonus for detection and monitoring) and a nuclear magnetic moment of -2.12762...

Ah, so it is a stable reactant that is easliy monitored - good start. I'm starting to believe.

Now we just need a working reactor to justify a moon mission... that thermal neutron cross section of <0.1 millibarns will make that pretty difficult, it is considerably smaller than the values for deuterium or the proton... (0.3-0.5 mb)  (mb = 10-27 cm2)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 03:34:39 pm by Bonk »

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2005, 03:28:47 pm »
There is a trade off in energy output but it is in exchange for no induced radiation or dangerous byproducts.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2005, 03:29:00 pm »
of course He III is stable.

Yes, I know that now, I'm just the "doubting Thomas" type - its instinct as an analytical chemist... (see my last post above)

Quote
as you know we have to manufacture tritium because it decays in ten years and so does not occur naturally in nature.

1H3 has a half-life of 12.26 years and no natural abundance - correct.

I hope you're not offended by this discussion at all, I appreciate you humouring me in this a great deal.  :thumbsup:

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2005, 03:31:08 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2005, 03:32:24 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Coolness! This has been fun! Not too many people around to geek out on science like this with! Most of my family and friends run scared...

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2005, 03:36:30 pm »
The EU fusion reactor being built now should achieve breakeven at some point but will not be able to do so with the HE III. however it will both prove the concept and lead to refinements that should make fusion more practical. I however think that fusion will not be a practical solution unless alternative schemes are brought to fruition such as the cheap table top version much talked about in science circles recently. who knows it might work with HE III. if it does then there is no reason it could not be as ubiquitous as batteries. (almost)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2005, 03:41:13 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Coolness! This has been fun! Not too many people around to geek out on science like this with! Most of my family and friends run scared...

tell me about it. and it is not as if the subject is incomprehensible. all it takes is interest and a modicum of study.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2005, 05:29:05 am »
Palmtop Nuclear Fusion Device Invented
By Michael Schirber
LiveScience Staff Writer
posted: 27 April 2005
01:00 pm ET
 
 

The nuclear reaction that powers the Sun has been reproduced in a pocket-sized device, scientists announced today.

Researchers have for years tried to harness nuclear fusion to power the world. But its cousin, nuclear fission -- the breaking apart of atoms -- is the only method so far commercially viable.

The latest invention is not in the same league as efforts to build complex commercial reactors. The new device creates a relatively small number of reactions, and requires more energy to operate than it produces.

The Real Deal
 
(AP) - Previous claims of tabletop fusion have been met with skepticism and even derision by physicists.

In one of the most notable cases, Dr. B. Stanley Pons of the University of Utah and Martin Fleischmann of Southampton University in England shocked the world in 1989 when they announced that they had achieved so-called cold fusion at room temperature. Their work was discredited after repeated attempts to reproduce it failed.

Fusion experts noted that the new UCLA experiment is credible because, unlike the 1989 work, it did not violate basic principles of physics.

"This doesn't have any controversy in it because they're using a tried and true method,'' said David Ruzic, professor of nuclear and plasma engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "There's no mystery in terms of the physics.''

-- Associated Press
 
 
 

 

 
But the configuration is so small and simple that its creators think it may inspire unforeseen applications.

"I certainly find it interesting that you can heat a cubic centimeter crystal in your hand, then plunge it in cold water and it will cause nuclear fusion," Seth Putterman from the University of California Los Angeles told LiveScience.

Putterman's lay description greatly oversimplifies how the compact apparatus works.

Specifically, Putterman and collaborators heat a pyroelectric crystal, lithium tantalate, from minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit to plus 45 in a matter of minutes. This generates an electrical charge -- 100,000 volts -- across the tiny crystal, which is housed in a chamber filled with deuterium gas, a heavy form of hydrogen.

The high voltage is focused onto a needle-thin tip, which strips electrons from nearby deuterium nuclei and then accelerates them at a solid target containing deuterium. When two deuterium nuclei collide together at high speed, they fuse to form helium.

The Sun also fuses atoms in nuclear reactions that create light and heat.

The byproduct of the newly discovered lab reaction is a particle called the neutron. The scientists detect about 1,000 neutrons per second. Because neutrons are so penetrating, Putterman said that a hand-held neutron source might one-day be used to do geologic surveys or to look into cargo containers for nuclear devices.

"Current neutron generators are extremely cumbersome," Putterman said. "They are about as big as a dentist’s X-ray machine, so you can’t carry them into the field."

Pyroelectric crystals could also provide a beam of ions for use as a microthruster in a miniature spacecraft. The research is described in the April 28 issue of the journal Nature.

 

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2005, 05:39:28 am »
Temperature Inside Collapsing Bubble Four Times That Of Sun

A cinematographic sequence of photos of the growth and implosive collapse of a single bubble (shown in blue) in sulfuric acid irradiated with high intensity ultrasound. The images are shown in false color. Photo by D. Flannigan and K. S. Suslick.
Champaign IL (SPX) Mar 03, 2005
Using a technique employed by astronomers to determine stellar surface temperatures, chemists at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have measured the temperature inside a single, acoustically driven collapsing bubble. Their results seem out of this world.
"When bubbles in a liquid get compressed, the insides get hot - very hot," said Ken Suslick, the Marvin T. Schmidt Professor of Chemistry at Illinois and a researcher at the Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology.

"Nobody has been able to measure the temperature inside a single collapsing bubble before. The temperature we measured - about 20,000 degrees Kelvin - is four times hotter than the surface of our sun."

This result, reported in the March 3 issue of the journal Nature by Suslick and graduate student David Flannigan, already has raised eyebrows. Their work is funded by the National Science Foundation and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Sonoluminescence arises from acoustic cavitation - the formation, growth and implosion of small gas bubbles in a liquid blasted with sound waves above 18,000 cycles per second.

The collapse of these bubbles generates intense local heating. By looking at the spectra of light emitted from these hot spots, scientists can determine the temperature in the same manner that astronomers measure the temperatures of stars.

By substituting concentrated sulfuric acid for the water used in previous measurements, Suslick and Flannigan boosted the brilliance of the spectra nearly 3,000 times. The bubble can be seen glowing even in a brightly lit room. This allowed the researchers to measure the otherwise faint emission from a single bubble.

"It is not surprising that the temperature within a single bubble exceeds that found within a bubble trapped in a cloud," Suslick said. "In a cloud, the bubbles interact, so the collapse isn't as efficient as in an isolated bubble."

What is surprising, however, is the extremely high temperature the scientists measured. "At 20,000 degrees Kelvin, this emission originates from the plasma formed by collisions of atoms and molecules with high-energy particles," Suslick said.

"And, just as you can't see inside a star, we're only seeing emission from the surface of the optically opaque plasma." Plasmas are the ionized gases formed only at truly high energies.

The core of the collapsing bubble must be even hotter than the surface. In fact, the extreme conditions present during single-bubble compression have been predicted by others to produce neutrons from inertial confinement fusion.

"We used to talk about the bubble forming a hot spot in an otherwise cold liquid," Suslick said. "What we know now is that inside the bubble there is an even hotter spot, and outside of that core we are seeing emission from a plasma."



Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 05:40:40 am »
neutrons have been detected along with the heat.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 10:12:55 am »
Wow, someone's been busy...  8)

I was impressed with the pyroelectric crytsal application. (particulary as a mini ion drive) Scaled up (or multiplied) perhaps it could produce more energy than it requires? (would sure beat those pee batteries anway!  ;D)

Now the cavitation results made my skin tingle (seriously...). Ultrasound turns my crank for some reason - so many applications and a powerful diagnostic imaging tool. Funny how the undesired cavitation effects in imaging (gas bubbles in tissue = bad news) could prove to be even more useful than ultrasound as an imaging technology! This one rings a bell for me, I think I've heard of simliar results earlier, (no link sorry). I am rather suspicous that it is a measurement artifact however. I am very suspicious of spectral shift techniques used by astonomers... if neutrons have been detected though, perhaps we have something here... hmmm how to make use of it...

Dang Stormbringer! This is gonna fill my head all day now, and I planned to work on The Forge D2 server some more today... I wanna get some work done on that and get some job applications out, but I definitley want to stew on this idea for a while... most fascinating!

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2005, 10:02:50 pm »
lithium tantalate.... crystals....

DILITHIUM!!
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2005, 10:10:33 pm »
lithium tantalate.... crystals....

DILITHIUM!!

 ;D Heh, didn't think of that... It did make me think of an old forums member Tantalus however, we haven't seen him for over a year though.

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2005, 10:17:47 pm »
Hehe, yeah, I remember seeing a screenie of Tanty's I-CA ramming a 'roid on the old 2.net site before it got squatted.

Wonder what he's up to...
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2005, 10:32:14 pm »
More on Bubble fusion from purdue:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-05zzzu.html

Purdue University researchers Yiban Xu, standing, and Adam Butt, in the foreground, look at a monitor connected to a camera trained on a nearby experiment. The research has yielded evidence supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions. Xu is a post-doctoral research associate in the Purdue's School of Nuclear Engineering, and Butt is a graduate research assistant in both nuclear engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics. The technology might one day, in theory, lead to a new source of clean energy and a host of portable detectors and other applications. Purdue News Service - photo by David Umberger.
West Lafayette IN (SPX) Jul 14, 2005
Researchers at Purdue University have new evidence supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions.
The technology, in theory, could lead to a new source of clean energy and a host of portable detectors and other applications.

The new findings were detailed in a peer-reviewed paper appearing in the May issue of the journal Nuclear Engineering and Design.

The paper was written by Yiban Xu, a post-doctoral research associate in the School of Nuclear Engineering, and Adam Butt, a graduate research assistant in both nuclear engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

A key component of the experiment was a glass test chamber about the size of two coffee mugs filled with a liquid called deuterated acetone, which contains a form of hydrogen known as deuterium, or heavy hydrogen.

The researchers exposed the test chamber to subatomic particles called neutrons and then bombarded the liquid with a specific frequency of ultrasound, which caused cavities to form into tiny bubbles.

The bubbles then expanded to a much larger size before imploding, apparently with enough force to cause thermonuclear fusion reactions.

Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a radioactive material called tritium, which is another product of fusion, Xu and Butt said.

The Purdue research began two years ago, and the findings represent the first confirmation of findings reported earlier by Rusi Taleyarkhan. Now at Purdue, Taleyarkhan, the Arden L. Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear Engineering, discovered the fusion phenomenon while he was a scientist working at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

"The two key signatures for a fusion reaction are emission of neutrons in the range of 2.5 MeV and production of tritium, both of which were seen in these experiments," Xu said.

The same results were not seen when the researchers ran control experiments with normal acetone, providing statistically significant evidence for the existence of fusion reactions.

"The control experiments didn't show anything," Xu said. "We changed just one parameter, substituting the deuterated acetone with normal acetone."

Deuterium contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus. Normal hydrogen contains only one proton in its nucleus.

Taleyarkhan led a research team that first reported the phenomenon in a 2002 paper published in the journal Science.

Those researchers later conducted additional research at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Russian Academy of Sciences and wrote a follow-up paper that appeared in the journal Physical Review E in 2004, just after Taleyarkhan had come to Purdue.

Scientists have long known that high-frequency sound waves cause the formation of cavities and bubbles in liquid, a process known as "acoustic cavitation," and that those cavities then implode, producing high temperatures and light in a phenomenon called "sonoluminescence."

In the Purdue research, however, the liquid was "seeded" with neutrons before it was bombarded with sound waves. Some of the bubbles created in the process were perfectly spherical, and they imploded with greater force than irregular bubbles.

The research yielded evidence that only spherical bubbles implode with a force great enough to cause deuterium atoms to fuse together, similar to the way in which hydrogen atoms fuse in stars to create the thermonuclear furnaces that make stars shine.

Nuclear fusion reactors have historically required large, expensive machines, but acoustic cavitation devices might be built for a fraction of the cost. Researchers have estimated that temperatures inside the imploding bubbles reach 10 million degrees Celsius and pressures comparable to 1,000 million earth atmospheres at sea level.

Xu and Butt now work in Taleyarkhan's lab, but all of the research on which the new paper is based was conducted before they joined the lab, and the research began at Purdue before Taleyarkhan had become a Purdue faculty member.

The two researchers used an identical "carbon copy" of the original test chamber designed by Taleyarkhan, and they worked under the sponsorship and direction of Lefteri Tsoukalas, head of the School of Nuclear Engineering.

Although the test chamber was identical to Taleyarkhan's original experiment, and the Purdue researchers were careful to use deuterated acetone, they derived the neutrons from a less-expensive source than the Oak Ridge researchers.

The scientists working at Oak Ridge seeded the cavities with a "pulse neutron generator," an apparatus that emits rapid pulses of neutrons. Xu and Butt derived neutrons from a radioactive material that constantly emits neutrons, and they simply exposed the test chamber to the material.

Development of a low-cost thermonuclear fusion generator would offer the potential for a new, relatively safe and low-polluting energy source.

Whereas conventional nuclear fission reactors make waste products that take thousands of years to decay, the waste products from fusion plants would be short-lived, decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade or two.

For the same unit mass of fuel, a fusion power plant would produce 10 times more energy than a fission reactor, and because deuterium is contained in seawater, a fusion reactor's fuel supply would be virtually infinite.

A cubic kilometer of seawater would contain enough heavy hydrogen to provide a thousand years' worth of power for the United States.

Such a technology also could result in a new class of low-cost, compact detectors for security applications that use neutrons to probe the contents of suitcases; devices for research that use neutrons to analyze the molecular structures of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture new synthetic materials and efficiently produce tritium, which is used for numerous applications ranging from medical imaging to watch dials; and a new technique to study various phenomena in cosmology, including the workings of neutron stars and black holes.

The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions generate extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions exist only in small regions of the liquid in the container - within the collapsing bubbles, Xu said.

Purdue researchers plan to release additional data from related experiments in October during the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics conference in Avignon, France.

The 2004 paper was written by Taleyarkhan while a distinguished scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho at Oak Ridge Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist from Oak Ridge; Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, a visiting scholar at RPI and president of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Bashkortonstan branch; and Robert C. Block, active professor emeritus in the School of Engineering at RPI and director of RPI's Gaerttner Linear Accelerator Laboratory.

be even funnier if we call it some thing like Ronco fuso-matic(tm.)




Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2005, 10:33:43 pm »
and a few comments of Big fusion:  (By yours truly in another forum)

but the france facility is not doing anything radically different from it's predecessors that achieved fusion. they are simply progressing it so that this facility can reach what is called break even where the reactor puts out more energy than needed to sustain the reaction. they may well do it. but as the culmination of 70 years of research that cost trillions of dollars. and with a facility that not only won't make any money by providing power to the grid but illustrates that no one but world powers can afford that type of fusion and them only just barely.
__________________

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2005, 10:37:05 pm »
From the above article:

 Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a radioactive material called tritium, which is another product of fusion, Xu and Butt said.

This confirms fusion occurs in the Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 10:08:28 pm »
Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12929
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2005, 03:43:48 pm »
Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

That is something to scare a Klingon.  A home fusion device made by Ronco.  I've never owned anything by them but have used a few items and they "left something to be desired" in the quality department.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."