Topic: Russians will be the first to mine the moon  (Read 8577 times)

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Offline Stormbringer

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Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« on: August 19, 2005, 05:07:58 pm »
Russia Plans Moon Exploration

 
Zhukovsky, Moscow Region (SPX) Aug 19, 2005
Russia's aerospace corporation Energiya, intends to begin producing helium III, an environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth, on the Moon, reports RIA Novosti
Energiya President Nikolai Sevastyanov announced the news at a press conference at the MAKS 2005 air show Thursday.

"This is the thermonuclear energy of the future, a new environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth," Sevastyanov said. "We are talking about the industrial exploration of the Moon for helium III production."

The corporation also plans to launch a transportation service between Earth and the Moon using Soyuz rockets.



Offline prometheus

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 05:50:21 pm »
It's about time this happened...  Maybe this will make other agencies like NASA and the ESA raise their game a bit...  Or to be more exact, make governments allocate more funding to such agencies...


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Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 07:14:58 pm »
WTF? Helium III? As a fuel? Helium is a noble gas - completely inert. Are we talking fusion here? (Helium is usually a product of naturally occuring solar fusion. It is not usually a starting point from what I know. Granted, heavier elements are fused deeper in stars, I understand...)

Helium III does not even make any sense to me. The stable isotope of helium is two protons and two neutrons as I recall, where is this "III" coming from?

Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...

Ah, "This is the thermonuclear energy of the future"... it is fusion they speak of... odd to start with helium... (also to be pedantic - they're talking production, not mining...) 8)

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 07:22:36 pm »
Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...


Link to full article

Quote
"This is the thermonuclear energy of the future, a new environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth," Sevastyanov said. "We are talking about the industrial exploration of the Moon for helium III production."
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 08:51:39 pm »
WTF? Helium III? As a fuel? Helium is a noble gas - completely inert. Are we talking fusion here? (Helium is usually a product of naturally occuring solar fusion. It is not usually a starting point from what I know. Granted, heavier elements are fused deeper in stars, I understand...)

Helium III does not even make any sense to me. The stable isotope of helium is two protons and two neutrons as I recall, where is this "III" coming from?

Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...

Ah, "This is the thermonuclear energy of the future"... it is fusion they speak of... odd to start with helium... (also to be pedantic - they're talking production, not mining...) 8)
If you do fusion starting with HEIII a version of helium with a few extra neutrons the radiation is almost nil and has a halflife of about thirty years. And they do mean mining. it streams to the moon from the sun and because there is no magnetic field it is not deflected like it is on earth. it is self renewing and is gathered by a strip mining like operation.

Offline prometheus

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 03:26:09 am »
It seems the Russians are really raising their game on Space Exploration...  China are seriously considering a voyage to the Moon by the sound of things...  I hope Bush doesn't screw the pooch on this one.  NASA need to be taken seriously and allocated some funding again...


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Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2005, 02:24:05 pm »
Thats not a very "full" article. Not that I am disinclined to believe Stormbringer, but I'll have to do a little research on this or see a more complete description of the nuclear physics at play here before I can believe this...

Spacedaily.com 's source moondaily.com does not seem to have any record of the article...

The article appears word for word here as well: http://en.rian.ru/science/20050818/41181180.html

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 02:27:26 pm »
Erm; I posted an article on HEIII on the moon and why it was important a few months ago. stand by i'll get it again.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 02:31:35 pm »
I doubt this is the exact article but it contains all but the renewal rate data on the resource:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html

Researchers and space enthusiasts see helium-3 as the perfect fuel source.
By Julie Wakefield
Special to SPACE.com
posted: 05:30 pm ET
30 June 2000

 
 
Researchers and space enthusiasts seehelium 3 as the perfect fuel source: extremely potent, nonpolluting, withvirtually no radioactive by-product. Proponents claim its the fuel ofthe 21st century. The trouble is, hardly any of it is found on Earth.But there is plenty of it on the moon.

Society is straining to keep pace withenergy demands, expected to increase eightfold by 2050 as the world populationswells toward 12 billion. The moonjust may be the answer.

"Helium 3 fusion energy may be thekey to future space exploration and settlement," said Gerald Kulcinski,Director of the Fusion Technology Institute (FTI) at the University ofWisconsin at Madison.

Scientists estimate there are about1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the world for thousandsof years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 25 tonscould supply the entire United States' energy needs for a year, accordingto Apollo17 astronaut and FTI researcher Harrison Schmitt.

Cash crop of the moon

When the solar wind, the rapid streamof charged particles emitted by the sun, strikes the moon, helium 3 isdeposited in the powdery soil. Over billions of years that adds up. Meteoritebombardment disperses the particles throughout the top several meters ofthe lunar surface.

"Helium 3 could be the cash crop forthe moon," said Kulcinski, a longtime advocate and leading pioneer in thefield, who envisions the moon becoming "the Hudson Bay Store of Earth."Today helium 3 would have a cash value of $4 billion a ton in terms ofits energy equivalent in oil, he estimates. "When the moon becomes an independentcountry, it will have something to trade."

~
 
 

Fusion research began in 1951 in theUnited States under military auspices. After its declassification in 1957scientists began looking for a candidate fuel source that wouldn't produceneutrons. Although Louie Alvarez and Robert Cornog discovered helium 3in 1939, only a few hundred pounds (kilograms) were known to exist on Earth,most the by-product of nuclear-weapon production.

Apollo astronauts found helium 3 onthe moon in 1969, but the link between the isotope and lunar resourceswas not made until 1986. "It took 15 years for us [lunar geologists andfusion pioneers] to stumble across each other," said Schmitt, the lastastronaut to leave footprints on the moon.

For solving long-term energy needs,proponents contend helium 3 is a better choice than first generation nuclearfuels like deuterium and tritium (isotopes of hydrogen), which are nowbeing tested on a large scale worldwide in tokamak thermonuclear reactors.Such approaches, which generally use strong magnetic fields to containthe tremendously hot, electrically charged gas or plasma in which fusionoccurs, have cost billions and yielded little. The International ThermonuclearExperimental Reactor or ITER tokamak, for example, won't produce a singlewatt of electricity for several years yet.

Increases production and safety costs

"I don't doubt it will eventually work,"Kulcinski said. "But I have serious doubts it will ever provide an economicpower source on Earth or in space." That's because reactors that exploitthe fusion of deuterium and tritium release 80 percent of their energyin the form of radioactive neutrons, which exponentially increase productionand safety costs.

In contrast, helium 3 fusion wouldproduce little residual radioactivity. Helium 3, an isotope of the familiarhelium used to inflate balloons and blimps, has a nucleus with two protonsand one neutron. A nuclear reactor based on the fusion of helium 3 anddeuterium, which has a single nuclear proton and neutron, would producevery few neutrons -- about 1 percent of the number generated by the deuterium-tritiumreaction. "You could safely build a helium 3 plant in the middle of a bigcity," Kulcinski said.

Helium 3 fusion is also ideal for poweringspacecraft and interstellar travel. While offering the high performancepower of fusion -- "a classic Buck Rogers propulsion system" -- helium3 rockets would require less radioactive shielding, lightening the load,said Robert Frisbee, an advanced propulsion engineer at NASA's Jet PropulsionLaboratory in Pasadena California.

Recently Kulcinski's team reports progresstoward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source outof it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

Size of a basketball

The chamber, which is roughly the sizeof a basketball, relies on the electrostatic focusing of ions into a densecore by using a spherical grid, explained Wisconsin colleague John Santarius,a study co-author. With some refinement, such Inertial Electrostatic Confinement(IEC) fusion systems could produce high-energy neutrons and protons usefulin industry and medicine. For example, the technology could generate short-livedPET (positron emission tomography) isotopes on site at hospitals, enablingsafe brain scans of young children and even pregnant women. Portable IECdevices could bridge the gap between today's science-based research andthe ultimate goal of generating electricity, Santarius said.

~
 
 

This fall, the University of Wisconsinteam hopes to demonstrate a third-generation fusion reaction between helium3 and helium 3 particles in the lab. The reaction would be completely voidof radiation.

"Although helium 3 would be very exciting,"says Bryan Palaszewski, leader of advanced fuels at NASA Glenn ResearchCenter at Lewis Field, "first we have to go back to the moon and be capableof doing significant operations there."

Economically unfeasible

Indeed for now, the economics of extractingand transporting helium 3 from the moon are also problematic. Even if scientistssolved the physics of helium 3 fusion, "it would be economically unfeasible,"asserted Jim Benson, chairman of SpaceDev in Poway, California, which strivesto be one of the first commercial space-exploration companies. "UnlessI'm mistaken, you'd have to strip-mine large surfaces of the moon."

While it's true that to produce roughly70 tons of helium 3, for example, a million tons of lunar soil would needto be heated to 1,470 degrees Fahrenheit (800 degrees Celsius) to liberatethe gas, proponents say lunar strip mining is not the goal. "There's enoughin the Mare Tranquillitatis alone to last for several hundred years," Schmittsaid. The moon would be a stepping stone to other helium 3-rich sources,such as the atmospheres of Saturn and Uranus.

Benson agreed that finding fuel sourcesin space is the way to go. But for him, H2O and not helium 3 is the idealfuel source. His personal goal is to create gas stations in space by miningasteroids for water. The water can be electrolyzed into hydrogen or oxygenfuel or used straight as a propellant by superheating with solar arrays."Water is more practical and believable in the short run," he said.

But proponents believe only helium3 can pay its own way.

"Water just isn't that valuable," Schmittsaid. Besides the helium, a mining process would produce water and oxygenas by-products, he says.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2005, 02:35:08 pm »
Thanks Stormbringer, gimmie a bit to absorb that, I seem to be finding plenty of "mythology" on "Helium III" all over the net... none of it too credible yet.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2005, 02:37:15 pm »
I highly doubt space.com, and the other sites i use to keep abreast of science and technology publish mythology.  ;)

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 02:43:27 pm »
Not intentionally of course, but people can get a little excited and jump the gun on this kind of thing...

The article you posted helped me swallow this a bit easier but this part makes me wonder about the wisdom in planning a moon mission on the basis of the assumption:

Quote
Recently Kulcinski's team reports progress toward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source out of it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

I want to see the reaction and products... and peer-reviewed journal publications...

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 02:49:28 pm »
Not intentionally of course, but people can get a little excited and jump the gun on this kind of thing...

The article you posted helped me swallow this a bit easier but this part makes me wonder about the wisdom in planning a moon mission on the basis of the assumption:

Quote
Recently Kulcinski's team reports progress toward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source out of it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

I want to see the reaction and products... and peer-reviewed journal publications...

the reaction equation should be fairly easy to find something like that should be in at least some layman level articles.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 02:57:59 pm »
Going to dig out my CRC handbook now...

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 03:00:26 pm »

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 03:03:22 pm »
still looking for He III equation

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 03:06:21 pm »
Here is a partial he3 fusion reaction equation:  D + 3He -------> p(14.7meV) + 4He(3.7meV) + 18.4meV

Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2005, 03:07:09 pm »

Dueterium reaction equations: 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/fusion.html#c4


Looks reasonable to me, but where's the "Helium III" as a stable reactant?

still looking for He III equation


Oh, cool... lemme go dig for my CRC, wanna see if 32He is a stable isotope...

Offline Bonk

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2005, 03:09:16 pm »
Here is a partial he3 fusion reaction equation:  D + 3He -------> p(14.7meV) + 4He(3.7meV) + 18.4meV


Looks plausible, still haven't dug my CRC out yet though.. lol!

The next question of course is, has anyone built a stable reactor with it?

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2005, 03:14:59 pm »
Look at the bottom equation:



the ITER reactor and a project the french and japanese are now building is believed to be not only stable but will achieve break even. however there are alternative designs and concepts that may be more economical and even portable. such as the collapsing bubble cavitation tabletop design.