Topic: I want TMP version of this ship. Compare TOS and TNG pics... (Read 17170 times)

Dizzy · « **on:** August 28, 2005, 03:57:13 pm »

So who has TMP version of this bad boy??

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2005, 04:14:52 pm »

The TMP version would be the stock FBB from SFC2...

That's what StressPuppy used as an inspiration for the top one, anyway...

Has anyone ever done a better version of the FBB?

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2005, 04:27:15 pm »

I'm very happy with this as my late TMP FBB.

True, the nacelle support struts could be wider but then again they present less of a target are when compared to the TOS FBB pictured above.

KF

Centurus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2005, 05:42:04 pm »

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing someone redo the FBB from the older games.

Dizzy · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2005, 06:33:45 pm »

The ship in SFB would have been out in 2275. That puts it smack dab when the CB comes out, which is the CAI version or TMP look. Excelsior didnt come out till 8 years later. So neither of the above pics are accurate for this ship. I hope some one does it, because the ship would rock in the TMP style.

Centurus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2005, 06:52:25 pm »

The stock FBB in SFC1/2/OP was TMP style. Just very poor quality. It needs to be redone, from the bottom up.

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2005, 07:28:02 pm »

There's always looking towards the Klingon Academy community; The Yamato-class FBB--intended as an Experimental Battleship in 2291 (if I remember correctly), originated from that game, as would most of the Klingon, Romulan, and Gorn vessels seen since SFC1. The stock FBB in SFC1 and SFC2 is a more-simplified look of the Yamato-class designed for computers that--compared to today's tech--seems a bit primitive. KA's FBB model is a higher quality, however not by much. Although it's more-detailed, a bunch of polygons I believe were used for the "ginzu" effect, where when you damage a starship's hull, the appearence of damage in the area hit would emerge.

I believe Dark Drone once converted it for SFC1, but I'm not sure if he did for SFC2... It was years ago, though. I believe I have a copy of it for SFC1, but I'll have to look somewhere in my room for the CD that has it.

Age · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2005, 08:15:41 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on August 28, 2005, 03:57:13 pm

So who has TMP version of this bad boy??

I never seen this in TMP.

Centurus · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2005, 09:42:16 pm »

In the stock models for the first 3 games, there's a twin-hulled, quad engine Fed BB. That's the ship they're pretty much talking about, but it's a bucket of bolts. A new one needs to be made. Basically all of the stock ships from all of the games have been remade with better models and textures, except for that one.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2005, 01:07:48 am »

It's either on Mackies site or at Battleclinic

Centurus · « **Reply #10 on:** August 29, 2005, 01:37:31 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on August 29, 2005, 01:07:48 am

It's either on Mackies site or at Battleclinic

It ain't at battleclinic so its gotta be at Mackie's site.

DuctTapeWonder · « **Reply #11 on:** August 29, 2005, 02:07:07 am »

Found this at mackies site. It's close, but needs a few more engines.

There is also this one by DarkDrone located at my site

battlestar001 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 29, 2005, 06:21:01 am »

id like someone to use sovy parts and remake the FBB. think shed look rather cool as it :p

Dizzy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 29, 2005, 07:48:28 am »

That BB.... isnt it...

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #14 on:** August 29, 2005, 09:47:29 am »

Teehee - thats my Jupiter

Once i find my copy of Max4 i may try my hand at bashing up a TMP Yamato.

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #15 on:** August 29, 2005, 09:52:01 am »

The Excelsior one is by FOAS, and is at Battle Clinic Excelsior Fleet pack 2 http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/dock.php?id=1814
I have one in a TMP style there as well the Ares Class http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/dock.php?id=1302

From Mackies I have these:
http://www.the-tcs.net/ships/gafy/FJustice_BB.jpg

Also go to WickedZombies Site as he also has various BB ships there as well

Dizzy · « **Reply #16 on:** August 29, 2005, 01:46:16 pm »

Quote from: Furyofaseraph on August 29, 2005, 09:47:29 am

Teehee - thats my Jupiter

Once i find my copy of Max4 i may try my hand at bashing up a TMP Yamato.

I know. It rocks. I have your whole mod. They all rock.

Centurus · « **Reply #17 on:** August 29, 2005, 05:04:06 pm »

Quote from: battlestar001 on August 29, 2005, 06:21:01 am

id like someone to use sovy parts and remake the FBB. think shed look rather cool as it :p

They have one that's very similar in the unofficial 534c patch. She needs to be redone badly in my opinion.

markyd · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2005, 11:42:45 am »

That one by mackie is awsome!!

Terradyhne · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2005, 01:57:13 am »

if someone make this a TMP version he should use the Kodiak Battleship design as a base for it, it has a bit more TMP like design than the Excelsior or the Ent-B

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2005, 02:31:28 am »

I believe I found it, take a look at the ship in the top right of this pic.

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,204a4610b499404f6a4a8de299b45f5a.rar

-MP

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2005, 08:59:33 am »

Those, too, are mine. They are meant to be Fast Cruisers, not BB's.

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2005, 02:05:52 pm »

Strange...

I have that BB version in a zip file so it got released somewhere.

Dizzy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2005, 06:06:07 pm »

Which one? TMP or the Excelsior era? TMP BB hasnt been done afaik.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #24 on:** September 01, 2005, 04:28:26 pm »

Quote from: Terradyhne on August 31, 2005, 01:57:13 am

if someone make this a TMP version he should use the Kodiak Battleship design as a base for it, it has a bit more TMP like design than the Excelsior or the Ent-B

Ask and ye shall recieve.............

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,d9b705deb75760a8b685c4130f532076.zip

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,11697a1f9bb37c1a4deddfc198a7f196.zip

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,ae7c42e9bb6be4f484351c251b7be5fd.zip

This one looks really close and it's based on the Kodiak.........

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,af8b17f96e3270fa8a38878bf47574aa.zip

Quote

id like someone to use sovy parts and remake the FBB. think shed look rather cool as it :p

http://www.the-tcs.net/dldir/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=169

Hope that helps.
-MP

Dizzy · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2005, 06:45:37 pm »

aNYONE CAN STICK 4 WARPS ON, oops caps, a DN. But can you make a BB and put 4 warps on it?

Centurus · « **Reply #26 on:** September 02, 2005, 04:55:11 am »

dogfighter · « **Reply #27 on:** September 02, 2005, 09:34:43 am »

i think it would be more reasonable to kitbash it from a big dreadnought. the ulysses might be a good start as it
uses other parts as the common miranda and conny kitbashes.

Dizzy · « **Reply #28 on:** September 02, 2005, 11:20:27 am »

The Ulysses is already being kitbashed. But it lacks the double aft hull. All the extra SSD boxxes and even the ftr bays the BB has than the DN wouldnt ever let it all fit on an existing DN aft hull. You need a twin hull. It isnt acceptable to simply take a DN aft hull and rescale it up so its bigger. Hell, I can do that in the model.size file. That's cheesy and in game it simply looks ridiculous. Just looks like you have a DN and mini-DN. Oh, with an extra warp engine.

blah

What I'd really like to see is a newly designed aft hull and then we can add kitbash parts. Or, we can simply take the pic of TOS BB i posted above and change it to TMP version.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #29 on:** September 02, 2005, 12:19:43 pm »

Ya know I'm beginning to think you're right Dizzy, it would be a good idea for someone to build a new BB based on the stock Taldern model.

dogfighter · « **Reply #30 on:** September 02, 2005, 12:26:24 pm »

why not using 2 ulysses hulls? similar to mackies einjerer class bb. 1 ulysses saucer and 2 ulysses secondarz hulls, 4 engines and a newbuild connection between the hulls.

just my 2 cents.

wickedzombie was working on a klingon academy fed bb but not the yamato class ...the other smaller bb.

ed:)

Dizzy · « **Reply #31 on:** September 02, 2005, 01:08:54 pm »

Something like that, dogfighter. But I urge anyone considering a Ulysses bash to wait a while... There is a Ulysses variant under way.

S33K100 · « **Reply #32 on:** September 02, 2005, 04:03:19 pm »

Not the Ulysses hull, the shape is completely wrong, the Yamato most resembles a huge version of the Excelsior hull, but stretched on the inside edge to join with the connecting hull, WZ's Relentless or Sorceror could be used as the basis of the secondary hulls, I may try that myself actually, using a scaled up and flattened version of the Ulysses saucer, the nacelles, aren't really like anything anyone else has ever done really, I suppose the Ulysses/Mars nacelles again and pylons made out of odd bits and pieces, the torpedo pods probably from WZ's Akula (for the flattened rectangualr profile they have) the only piece I can't think of is the connecting hull, though I'd be inclined to source that from the TOS one by Stresspuppy if it has one, I can't tell from the picture at the start of the thread.

Edit: for the connecting hull, just thought of it: an Okinawa hull could be used, ridiculously scaled up and retextured of course, and it'd connect perfectly to the Saucer.

Dizzy · « **Reply #33 on:** September 02, 2005, 04:23:42 pm »

Gotta be careful what u kitbash. Two FF aft hulls, well, that makes it look like starfleet engineers took two Frigate aft hulls and mated them... Kinda would ruin the look. Watch out boys, here comes the super frigate!

The idea should be all about the Feds being able to afford and build one. ONE. So why develop an assembly line or open up a new shipyard if only one is ever built? So it makes total sense to kitbash it from other ships. Two carrier class aft hulls may work. Or twin aft hulls from a smaller DN.

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #34 on:** September 02, 2005, 05:54:07 pm »

Gimme a few Minutes, i am going to bash up one in a few minutes

S33K100 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 02, 2005, 07:13:47 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 02, 2005, 04:23:42 pm

Gotta be careful what u kitbash. Two FF aft hulls, well, that makes it look like starfleet engineers took two Frigate aft hulls and mated them... Kinda would ruin the look. Watch out boys, here comes the super frigate!

The idea should be all about the Feds being able to afford and build one. ONE. So why develop an assembly line or open up a new shipyard if only one is ever built? So it makes total sense to kitbash it from other ships. Two carrier class aft hulls may work. Or twin aft hulls from a smaller DN.

I think you misunderstood my intent, that is I would use the Okinawa's hull as the shape of the interconnecting piece between the two secondary hulls, as it has about the right shape, obviously I'd retexture it partially - adding lots of very small details, to give an appropriate sense of scale, it wouldn't be a super-frigate at all.

Dizzy · « **Reply #36 on:** September 03, 2005, 05:59:17 pm »

Ahh... ok, i c now. Yeah, you are the 1st I know of who has put any thought into what would mate the two aft hulls. That is a very important piece... that, I doubt, has been given very much thought. I cant say I have liked any of the ideas I have 'seen' so far. Mb thge ff as a connector would work?

S33K100 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 03, 2005, 09:23:12 pm »

I haven't been able to give it much thought as my main project at the moment has been taking up a lot of time - an Ambassador era Lexington, the textures are busting my hump as I believe the saying goes. Anyway, if an Okinawa FF hull were to be used I would suggest that the rear section, the little shelf that sticks out should be removed completely if possible though I doubt it would be easy and maybe just making the underside much steeper in that area to accomodate the huge impulse engines. The impulses could probably be taken from anything without too much difficulty though I would suggest 2 of the USS Vanquish (by WZ) impulse engines mounted side by side might be a good start point.

dogfighter · « **Reply #38 on:** September 04, 2005, 03:06:39 am »

the rear part of the okinawa hull could be used as a landing pad for the fighters ans shuttles. just make it facing forward. maybe some phaser cannons on its underside.
in ka the fbb had two assault phasers. damn those were incredibly powerfull. ripping through the shilds and hull of whatever enemy choses to cross the line of fire.

ed:)

Dizzy · « **Reply #39 on:** September 04, 2005, 03:38:10 am »

It has to be SFB accurate for weapons hardpointing. We already have so many other BB variants that are armed with everything and the kitchen sink.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #40 on:** September 04, 2005, 01:58:55 pm »

How about this ship ?????

http://www.nightsoft.net/mckinnleystation/jupiter.zip

Dizzy · « **Reply #41 on:** September 04, 2005, 02:17:27 pm »

Yeah, that's the shape idea, MP, but it's the Excelsior era, not TMP era design.

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #42 on:** September 06, 2005, 03:24:37 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 04, 2005, 02:17:27 pm

Yeah, that's the shape idea, MP, but it's the Excelsior era, not TMP era design.

If I remember correctly, the Yamato-class (experimental) battleship (designed for the game Klingon Academy) was built during the "Excelsior-era" (generally a part of the "TMP-era" designation). I believe the year KA took place was 2291, placing the design of that battleship at that time as well. And looking at the design, although original, the design seems influenced by three Starship classes: The (refit) Constitution-class (nacelles and deflector dishes at least), Miranda-class (the basic roll-bar design), and the Excelsior-class (The overall hull design influence).

Here's some colalges of in-game screenshots of the Yamato-class Battleship from Klingon Academy:

I hope this helps...

Rogue · « **Reply #43 on:** September 06, 2005, 04:55:32 pm »

This submition made should someone decide to take up the cause on this model.

A layout of the Yamato found long ago

Also a kitbash of the stock FBB by Knox. Geometry and textures have been altered and might make a better starting point.

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,ce262ac51ae85d149380c91560d615fb.zip

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #44 on:** September 06, 2005, 07:48:25 pm »

If anyone is gonna bash the FBB, this is a great candidate for the bash.

Original mesh and textures by Moonraker.
Texture bashed by Ganymad
http://www.the-tcs.net/_hosted/tgp-bs/downloads/feds/DN-BB/F-DN-Ulysses(GANY).zip

S33K100 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 06, 2005, 09:37:49 pm »

Ganymad's textures have been bashed on to the many times superior version of the Ulysses by WickedZombie, and even then I prefer WZ's subtler style of texturing anyway, as has already been pointed out in this thread the hull-shape of the Ulysses is completely different to that of the Yamato, the nacelles and rollbar & torp launcher are about the only things worth using from the Ulysses, and even then that's only cause there's nothing that really resembles the Yamato nacelles in other designs.

DuctTapeWonder · « **Reply #46 on:** September 06, 2005, 09:52:11 pm »

Quote from: S33K100 on September 06, 2005, 09:37:49 pm

Ganymad's textures have been bashed on to the many times superior version of the Ulysses by WickedZombie, and even then I prefer WZ's subtler style of texturing anyway, as has already been pointed out in this thread the hull-shape of the Ulysses is completely different to that of the Yamato, the nacelles and rollbar & torp launcher are about the only things worth using from the Ulysses, and even then that's only cause there's nothing that really resembles the Yamato nacelles in other designs.

Wicked Zombie........If you're reading this, please, please end our misery by just volunteering to make a new hi-res Yamato. I'm terribly frightened by the thought of the bastardized kitbash this thread is obviously leading to.

Dizzy · « **Reply #47 on:** September 07, 2005, 12:16:40 am »

The Ulysses is already being... altered. Just wait and see...

S33K100 · « **Reply #48 on:** September 07, 2005, 12:00:31 pm »

Quote from: Ducttapewonder on September 06, 2005, 09:52:11 pm

Wicked Zombie........If you're reading this, please, please end our misery by just volunteering to make a new hi-res Yamato. I'm terribly frightened by the thought of the bastardized kitbash this thread is obviously leading to.

Hey I'm the only one complaining about the bastardisation going on it seems, but I gotta say you'll never see a WZ Yamato for one simple reason - we've asked numerous times, he says he hates the design.

Wicked Zombie · « **Reply #49 on:** September 07, 2005, 03:50:24 pm »

Of course I hate it. It's a bastardized mockery of Starfleet engineering and design and deserves to be tossed into the lowest pit of the underworld and ravaged by demonic spirits for all eternity.

On second thought, scratch that. I don't want that thing anywhere near my coffee-table down here...

DuctTapeWonder · « **Reply #50 on:** September 07, 2005, 04:18:07 pm »

Quote from: Wicked Zombie on September 07, 2005, 03:50:24 pm

Of course I hate it. It's a bastardized mockery of Starfleet engineering and design and deserves to be tossed into the lowest pit of the underworld and ravaged by demonic spirits for all eternity.

On second thought, scratch that. I don't want that thing anywhere near my coffee-table down here...

Wicked Zombie. Out of morbid curosity, would you consider making an original design F-BB? I have looked at your Olympus Mons model and while I like the design, IMHO it dosent seem to have enough mass to justify all those engines and looks a little awkward to me. I was thinking something akin to your Ark Royal might be in order for a BB.

Wicked Zombie · « **Reply #51 on:** September 07, 2005, 04:43:26 pm »

The thought had crossed my mind, but I honestly don't have any real black magic left for the Feds beyond the occasional kitbash or retexture.

The Mars isn't really intended to be a realistic FBB as it's mainly based on the original SFB version, which also has problems that passed over to the refit. The second KA battleship, Missouri, is a whole other mess which is one reason why I haven't finished it either.

battlestar001 · « **Reply #52 on:** September 08, 2005, 05:08:03 pm »

I love the desig of that Yomato From KA, Ive got one in my SFC game :pi think some one need to redo her. The SFC 2 and 1 Stock model doesent show the ship in the best light

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #53 on:** September 09, 2005, 01:02:32 pm »

If we are discussing a new FBB for the TMP era I would suggest these few points ..............

1) Stay away from SFB design thinking.
2) NO CONNIE bashes The connie is a heavy cruiser PERIOD. I agree with WZ. No bastardized bashes.
3) NO EXCELSIOR bashes. The Excelsior is a battlecruiser PERIOD.
4) A new hull design with proper mass, new nacelles (no oversize connie/excelsior ones) New texture design, a unique saucer.No oversized Miranda weapon bar.

An all new ship.

P.S. I know this is gonna open a can of worms but......... SFC is based on SFB and FASA designs have become a big part of it as well. Known TMP ships pretty much the Excelsior is the biggest (cannon) ship. The connie was replaced by the Constellation-class and any FDN ( TOS era design or fan-fic TMP upgrade) would have been phased out by the Excelsior. IF the Excelsior was to be the Fed's big gun should we not use it as the FBB ? IF the federation had an FBB during the TMP era how big would it have been ? The Excelsior is 467m. Now even though we all know it never came to fluition the Ambassador-class at 526m WAS to replace the Excelsior and as the Fed's premier ship it did but not to decom the excels. Is it possible that until the Ambassador came online the Excelsior served as the FBB of the fleet ? Then was relegated to battlecruiser again as a larger ship was built ? If ya don't agree with my line of thinking perhaps a FASA design should be considered as the FBB though most are no more than Connie/Excel varients/bashes...

http://www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/federation/indomitable.gif

Funny thing is even the Starship Tactical simulator lists the Excel as an FBB. Just stuff to ponder.

I say NEW SHIP at 500m in length

Dizzy · « **Reply #54 on:** September 09, 2005, 01:42:31 pm »

While that would be neat, MP, I've not known where any dynaverse has ever built more than one... So wouldnt it make more sense for the feds to use existing ship systems and designs to put together a BB? I mean, they are so expensive and such that not more than several would ever be made... If that is the case, then it's safe to assume that a shipyard or manufacturing facility wouldnt be constructed because they arnt intended for production.

I still think a DN saucer, weapons rollbar and 2x aft hulls each with 2 warps would be the ticket... I mean, with those resources, you are looking at taking a DN saucer, two heavy cruiser aft hulls and 4 warps... Those kinds of parts and pieces I could see the feds getting their hands on easily enough. Putting it all together and making it work is a different matter.

Furthermore, if you count the weapon systems each of the components has, 2x hvy cruiser aft hulls and a DN saucer with a rollbar, you get approximately the kinds of weapons configuration the BB is supposed to have.

There's a little bit of dark matter fed black magic yet...

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #55 on:** September 09, 2005, 02:58:44 pm »

I see and conceed your point Dizzy. SO I have to go back to what I said in my last post, and your point is very valid. EXPENSE. I don't think even though I know ya want a new ship to replace the stock FBB that there EVER WAS an FBB. I think it's the Excelsior. And based on this I submit this following shiplist........

TMP shiplist

FBB
Excelsior (Ent B refit)
Excelsior

FCV
Thru-deck carriers

FDN
Federation-class (Franz Joseph) TMP refit

FBC
Triton-class (FASA)
Belknap-class (Ships of Starfleet)

FCA
Constellation-class
Enterprise-class (Ent-A ST VI)
Andor-class
North Hampton
Constitution-class ( ST TMP)
Chandley-class

FCL
Miranda ( Reliant)
Miranda (Soyuz)
Miranda
Brenton
Baker
Durret

FDD
Thufir
Larson
Baker
Wilkerson
Abbe
Akyazi

FFF
Kiev
Remora
Oberth
Ranger
Loknar

Scout/Corvette
Scorpio
Solar

Comments and additions welcome

Dizzy · « **Reply #56 on:** September 09, 2005, 04:22:56 pm »

There are 3x schools of thought here... FASA, SFB, and MINE.

Centurus · « **Reply #57 on:** September 09, 2005, 06:07:03 pm »

SFC was based on SFB, and FASA designs have become mainstream in the SFB world, but, let us not forget that SFC is a game all its own, and therefore, I agree with MP that a brand new design should be made, however, I don't agree that the new ship shouldn't have design elements from older, more tried and tested designs, which have stood the test of time. I'm not saying oversized, bastardized bashes. Just new designs, with hints of older ships in their design philosophy.

In canon Trek, the Feds never had a BB, and DNs were viewed as a contradiction to Starfleet's very nature of peaceful exploration, at least from what I have read on the subject in the past.

I do not agree that the Excelsior was ever a BB at anytime, or even a DN. BCH, yes, in size and firepower based on the standards of the time, and the Enterprise B would have been an improved BCH, and by BCH, I mean Battle Cruiser/Heavy Battle Cruiser.

It is evident that as technology progressed, and tensions within the galaxy always changing, that Starfleet, just like other races, built bigger ships with more advanced technology. I do agree that the Ambassadors were supposed to replace the Excelsiors as the frontline explorer in the fleet, but it didn't happen, but, they did take over as the battle cruisers in the fleet, which put the Excelsiors in the role of Heavy Cruiser.

It is believed that the Ambassador production was cut short of its intended goals. I don't believe this to be true, personally that is. They are more than likely still being produced, just not as fast as previously intended. But I am starting to go way off track here, so I'll try and get back on track.

I do believe that if there was a BB in the TMP era, she would be bigger than the Excelsiors. Maybe she would dwarf the Ambassadors but only a tiny margin. She would be a completely new design, but share design traits with those of the Constitution-class and the Excelsior-class. Reason for the Connies is that at the time they were the most successful design ever created, and the Excelsior-class because, short of the transwarp drive, the Excelsior was a very stable, viable design, with the systems designed for her being adapted to the entire Starfleet, refitting all current ships in service.

Just my thoughts.

Dizzy · « **Reply #58 on:** September 09, 2005, 07:14:40 pm »

Daihak, the FBB has a release availability of 2275. That places it squarely when the CC+ (TOS?) was upgraded to a heavy command cruiser, or CCH, called the CB. The Excelsior didnt come out till 2283. So that design influence can be thrown out completely.

If ever there were TMP look to SFB or SFC, it was in 2275. Because in 2282, the CX came out. That's technically the NCC 1701-A. So TMP influence carried far over into the excelsior era... But that's not what we are talking about.

I'm talking about a BB that came out in 2275. A couple years after the Miranda class which was TMP as well. So if it makes any sense, either the CC+ was TOS design and the BB was built in tandem using the new technology for the CB (TMP) ships and a DN saucer somewhere or the CC+ was already TMP design and the CC was TOS and that way the parts were already lying round for the Feds to slap it together.

Makes no sense to completely design a whole new class from the keel up... Not for a ship that isnt being put into production. That's like the US Navy going out of their way to build an entirely new shipyard and supporting infrastructure for a one of a kind Trimaran Hulled Battleship. It's inconcievable because the technology and components to be used are untested and to develop a supporting infrastructure and brand new shipyard just for the explicit purpose of making ONE ship... is, well, you get the idea.

All I want is someone to take this TOS design and convert it to TMP. Shouldnt be too terribly tough.

Centurus · « **Reply #59 on:** September 09, 2005, 07:45:10 pm »

Dizzy, you didn't understand at all what I was saying, also you are going solely based on SFB. That may be your decision, it does not have to be the rule.

I agree with some of your time estimates on starship introduction.

It is well believed that the Excelsior herself was in design phases around the mid-2270s, so which means some of the early design influences may very well have found themselves into the major refit of the Enterprise in 2271. This may or may not be the case, but it is a valid view none the less.

I also agree with the time the Excelsior herself was ready for trial runs, circa 2282-2283.

Anyway you choose to look at it, if Starfleet chose to build a BB in TMP era, they wouldn't necessarily use existing parts laying around to simply bash one together. They might, but that's not saying that they have to, or most likely would. It is very plasuible that they would design such a ship, using tested and established technology, namely from the Constitution Refit, as their primary source. This doesn't, however mean they would use spare parts from the Connies to bash it. They might use some of the same pieces. More than likely.

But, for the most part, she would be a new design, sharing many of the design lineage from the Constitutions, and even some from the Excelsiors, since it is reasonable to assume that even in 2275, the Excelsior herself was on the drawing board at least, if not the hull was being constructed. And the BB would be something that they would bring out only in times of desperation, like you said.

I do agree with you on one thing about the FBB you want done in TMP, I would like to see it re-done too. The stock model is very poor, and in desperate need of updating.

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #60 on:** September 09, 2005, 08:43:23 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 09, 2005, 07:14:40 pm

Makes no sense to completely design a whole new class from the keel up... Not for a ship that isnt being put into production. That's like the US Navy going out of their way to build an entirely new shipyard and supporting infrastructure for a one of a kind Trimaran Hulled Battleship. It's inconcievable because the technology and components to be used are untested and to develop a supporting infrastructure and brand new shipyard just for the explicit purpose of making ONE ship... is, well, you get the idea.

Just because you build a new ship doesn't mean that you have to build an entirely new infrastructure or shipyard. And, to extend your US Navy example, how much money and time has gone into building 3 Seawolf-class attack boats over the last 15 or so years? To extend it even further, they didn't build the Seawolfs by taking two Los Angeles-class hulls and welding them together...

Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with you wanting an updated Yamato, Dizzy.

I realize that kitbashing is a time-honored tradition not only here, but in canon Trek as well. It's just ironic that I've spent the last couple of years trying to talk StressPuppy into de-kitbashing his TOS version for the Homeworld mods, and here you're using it as the poster child for kitbashing.

S33K100 · « **Reply #61 on:** September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm »

The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

Centurus · « **Reply #62 on:** September 09, 2005, 09:37:47 pm »

Quote from: S33K100 on September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm

The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

I second that.

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #63 on:** September 09, 2005, 09:55:23 pm »

The Yamato as seen in SFC2 may not technically be a kitbash, but it's (IMO, anyway) a kitbash at heart. If you took a Connie refit saucer, 2 Connie refit secondary hulls, 4 Connie nacelles, 2 Miranda rollbars, and a few new parts (mostly the oversized "shields" connecting the upper and lower nacelles), you would have essentially the same ship.

Now, the original KA version may be different; I don't know, never played the game...

S33K100 · « **Reply #64 on:** September 09, 2005, 10:05:44 pm »

Quote from: Chris Johnson on September 06, 2005, 03:24:37 pm

These images posted on the previous page by Chris Johnson show you exactly what it looked like in KA as they are of the KA version in KA. So many details and hull shapes are completely different to any established ship that it cannot properly be kitbashed from existing models, the saucer for example has the sloping down edges common in Lexington/Excelsior era ships but is many times wider in circumference and much flatter proportionally, not to mention the completely different texture details on the saucer.

The engineering hulls again vaguelly show traits from the Excelsior but both the proportions, the scale and the completely different details preclude the use of an Excelsior hull for a kitbash, the interconnecting section is a completely new part. The nacelles are completely new in design, they have no parallel in existing designs.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #65 on:** September 09, 2005, 11:25:20 pm »

Quote from: S33K100 on September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm

The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

Don't be so sure..............stand-bye folks

Centurus · « **Reply #66 on:** September 09, 2005, 11:53:16 pm »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 09, 2005, 11:25:20 pm

Quote from: S33K100 on September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm
The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

Don't be so sure..............stand-bye folks

Do you know what I know? *looks at MP*

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #67 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:01:39 am »

If I remember correctly, I think I may still have an SFC1 version of the original KA Yamato-class BB and some other ships (maybe even a Fed Battlestation) from KA, ported by DarkDrone some years ago (forgot when), unsure if they have hardpoints. I'll have to look and see if they didn't fall victim to my HD crash back in February 2004... And my Saturdays--recently--haven't been looking so good in spending free time here. I'll look around my CD collection Sunday or Monday and see if I have it. If I do, I'll just pack 'em in one zip file and see what I can do with 'em...

Centurus · « **Reply #68 on:** September 10, 2005, 01:04:23 am »

Quote from: Chris Johnson on September 10, 2005, 01:01:39 am

If I remember correctly, I think I may still have an SFC1 version of the original KA Yamato-class BB and some other ships (maybe even a Fed Battlestation) from KA, ported by DarkDrone some years ago (forgot when), unsure if they have hardpoints. I'll have to look and see if they didn't fall victim to my HD crash back in February 2004... And my Saturdays--recently--haven't been looking so good in spending free time here. I'll look around my CD collection Sunday or Monday and see if I have it. If I do, I'll just pack 'em in one zip file and see what I can do with 'em...

WOOHOO!!!! *runs around on the floor in a circle*

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #69 on:** September 10, 2005, 02:10:17 am »

Quote from: Daihak on September 09, 2005, 11:53:16 pm

Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 09, 2005, 11:25:20 pm
Quote from: S33K100 on September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm
The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

Don't be so sure..............stand-bye folks

Do you know what I know? *looks at MP*

Yeah I know ya know what I know. Ya know?

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #70 on:** September 10, 2005, 08:21:16 am »

OY !!

MP ... you want me to do some cut and past stuff and send via PM to see if it works.

Some of these are good ships .... but the wrong class for the design. Others are bulky, awkward, and just extra nacelles attached to multiple hulls. I personally thought that the OP Fed BB was overly simplistic, and just not there .... (Sorry if that is out spoken. I tried over 2-1/2 years ago to get Nanner to support the idea of a new Fed BB ..... it died. I'm sure that was due to my lack of skill and ability in this dept. ) BUT .... I dont give up too easily.

I agree Dizzy ... we need a good Fed BB that fits this era you have requested much better. I have a full plate right now .. but I think we can work this in.

MP .... what do ya think bud ! You have been a good consultant so far... And if there is any chance you can contact Azel ( for advisory purposes only) that would be cool.

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #71 on:** September 10, 2005, 08:43:30 pm »

Quote from: Chris Johnson on September 10, 2005, 01:01:39 am

If I remember correctly, I think I may still have an SFC1 version of the original KA Yamato-class BB and some other ships (maybe even a Fed Battlestation) from KA, ported by DarkDrone some years ago (forgot when), unsure if they have hardpoints. I'll have to look and see if they didn't fall victim to my HD crash back in February 2004... And my Saturdays--recently--haven't been looking so good in spending free time here. I'll look around my CD collection Sunday or Monday and see if I have it. If I do, I'll just pack 'em in one zip file and see what I can do with 'em...

Just a supplimentary to the post I quoted above, more-of an update on how much free time I have... If I'm lucky, I'll be doing as I said above, checking sometime tommorow or Monday. Worst case scenario (possibility), I may not be able to check and see if I have the models up until maybe mid-to-late next week or week after. I don't think it'll happen, but it's possible I may not be able to do much on here. I could do it now but I'm exausted from work, and after this post I might enjoy hours-long-worth of sleep. If the worst case scenario happens, hope I don't forget about this. *shrug* Just FYI, although nothing important.

Antivyrus · « **Reply #72 on:** September 11, 2005, 10:15:44 pm »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 10, 2005, 02:10:17 am

Quote from: Daihak on September 09, 2005, 11:53:16 pm
Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 09, 2005, 11:25:20 pm
Quote from: S33K100 on September 09, 2005, 09:24:04 pm
The Yamato is a TMP ship in the first place, the TOS version is the derivative, the original KA version was not a kitbash at all but rather a new design, it's just a shame no one with the talent to make a new model has shown an interest.

Don't be so sure..............stand-bye folks

Do you know what I know? *looks at MP*

Yeah I know ya know what I know. Ya know?

I know what ya both know hehe

Fedman NCC-3758 · « **Reply #73 on:** September 11, 2005, 10:31:53 pm »

oh yeah!!

Dizzy · « **Reply #74 on:** September 11, 2005, 11:39:55 pm »

wtf is that?

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #75 on:** September 12, 2005, 07:36:29 am »

Dizzy ..

looks to me like a WIP ... a twin secondary hulled ship .. (missing the upper half of the entire vessel ..)

should be interesting to see what's comming.

I never did hear from MP ...

oh well !

Centurus · « **Reply #76 on:** September 12, 2005, 08:54:01 am »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 11, 2005, 11:39:55 pm

wtf is that?

That is the ship you've been wanting redone, it's just not finished yet.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #77 on:** September 12, 2005, 08:58:54 am »

Quote from: OlBuzzard on September 12, 2005, 07:36:29 am

Dizzy ..

looks to me like a WIP ... a twin secondary hulled ship .. (missing the upper half of the entire vessel ..)

should be interesting to see what's comming.

I never did hear from MP ...

oh well !

Sorry about that Buzz, been under the weather. I'm here now

. By all means PM me with your ideas. I haven't seen Azel in a few days but I'll try and locate him.
-MP

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #78 on:** September 12, 2005, 09:02:26 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 12, 2005, 08:58:54 am

Quote from: OlBuzzard on September 12, 2005, 07:36:29 am
Dizzy ..

looks to me like a WIP ... a twin secondary hulled ship .. (missing the upper half of the entire vessel ..)

should be interesting to see what's comming.

I never did hear from MP ...

oh well !

Sorry about that Buzz, been under the weather. I'm here now . By all means PM me with your ideas. I haven't seen Azel in a few days but I'll try and locate him.
-MP

cool

that works !

Dizzy · « **Reply #79 on:** September 12, 2005, 10:09:10 am »

Quote from: Daihak on September 12, 2005, 08:54:01 am

Quote from: Dizzy on September 11, 2005, 11:39:55 pm
wtf is that?

That is the ship you've been wanting redone, it's just not finished yet.

No, that has Excelsior style aft hulls.That thing is just like Fury of a Seraph's Excelsior BB. Cept it has only one aft hull. I want the post TOS pre excelsior TMP version.

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #80 on:** September 12, 2005, 10:15:37 am »

I came up with something like that a long time ago .. but it needed some work ( part of the bridge area was not as well done as needed.) The double hull I used is not split like the rest .. It's a bit differenet too. And I use nacelles off of the TMP Connie as well.

Centurus · « **Reply #81 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:16:23 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 12, 2005, 10:09:10 am

Quote from: Daihak on September 12, 2005, 08:54:01 am
Quote from: Dizzy on September 11, 2005, 11:39:55 pm
wtf is that?

That is the ship you've been wanting redone, it's just not finished yet.

No, that has Excelsior style aft hulls.That thing is just like Fury of a Seraph's Excelsior BB. Cept it has only one aft hull. I want the post TOS pre excelsior TMP version.

The original FBB had those hulls.

Dizzy · « **Reply #82 on:** September 12, 2005, 03:31:23 pm »

What do u mean? The Taldren version? TOS version used connie like aft hulls. Im confused.

S33K100 · « **Reply #83 on:** September 12, 2005, 07:04:26 pm »

Taldren made the original model, well actually it comes from Klingon Academy, so whoever made KA made the original model, their version has 'Excelsior style' secondary hulls, though they're not really limited to the Excelsior. When StressPuppy altered the design to make a TOS version there is no TOS equivalent of the flat-topped hulls the original (TMP) Yamato used, so he just made some oversized Connie versions by the looks of it.

Look on modelviewer at the fbb.mod file, the original Taldren BB, or hell look at the pics from KA that Chris Johnson posted in this very thread, that is the original design of the ship.

The new one looks good so far, though it shouldn't have those neck parts at the front of the sec hulls, dunno what they're doing there as they wont connect to anything, the hull tops should be inline with the top of the saucer.

Antivyrus · « **Reply #84 on:** September 12, 2005, 08:40:10 pm »

the origanal STOCK Yamamoto is what I'm basing this model off of. One thing you guys have to remember is the that model has only 406 polys, very little to no "landscaping" details are modeled on instead the are painted on and on a very low res texture at that but if you study the texture and the UNtextured model (and I have) you will see the geometry that was meant to be there but the low poly count would not allow. Also please remember that my screens are of a WIP model where the BASIC geometry is ROUGHED in.

and to Dizzy-- If you don't like it.. Too bad!! stop LEECHING off others and BUILD YOUR OWN!!

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #85 on:** September 12, 2005, 08:46:01 pm »

Dizzy, I think at this point you may need to be a little more clear about what you're after. It seems like Antivyrus is doing a higher-poly version of the KA/SFC Yamato FBB, whcih is, I think, what a lot of people (including myself) thought you were after to start with; if, as it's starting to look like, you're looking more for a Connie-refit kitbash using scaled-up secondary hulls and warp nacelles (although I don't know what you're wanting from the primary hull, that's based loosely on the Excelsior even on StressPuppy's TOS version

), you might want to clarify that...

Centurus · « **Reply #86 on:** September 12, 2005, 10:13:36 pm »

Anti, Capt. Pierce, +1.

Dizzy · « **Reply #87 on:** September 12, 2005, 10:47:24 pm »

Quote from: Antivyrus on September 12, 2005, 08:40:10 pm

stop LEECHING off others and BUILD YOUR OWN!!

I am.

Wait and see.

Centurus · « **Reply #88 on:** September 12, 2005, 11:46:36 pm »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 12, 2005, 10:47:24 pm

Quote from: Antivyrus on September 12, 2005, 08:40:10 pm
stop LEECHING off others and BUILD YOUR OWN!!

I am. Wait and see.

*rolls eyes*

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #89 on:** September 13, 2005, 02:54:40 am »

Ooooooooooooooo looking hot Antivyrus. That's gonna be one great ship

Keep up the outstanding work.
-MP

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #90 on:** September 13, 2005, 07:58:16 am »

ATV ... continue the work bud. It looks good ! I got the impression you got upset about something .. ( not sure what ?)

If Dizzey does not use the model .. then so be it. This forum is all about sharing ideas and helping each other to begin with.

I must confess that if the ship you are designing is not what he is looking for that there needs to be a bit more info provided. Even a sketch of some sort would help.

I personally would like to see a couple of really good Fed BB's come out of this. Everyone hang in there ... there's got to be an answer.

Dizzy · « **Reply #91 on:** September 13, 2005, 09:09:54 am »

Quote from: OlBuzzard on September 13, 2005, 07:58:16 am

I personally would like to see a couple of really good Fed BB's come out of this. Everyone hang in there ... there's got to be an answer.

EXACTLY!

I'm after something specific... But my taste doesnt suit everyone, this I know. I'm gonna make sure I get what I'm after tho, but like Ol Buz said, if we get a few different designs from the ideas of all the suggestions in this thread, then it was a damned good thread.

Mb we can have a beauty pagent when this is all over and declare the best looking BB or something... hehe. I'll throw my money in the ring right now.

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #92 on:** September 13, 2005, 11:05:52 am »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 13, 2005, 09:09:54 am

Quote from: OlBuzzard on September 13, 2005, 07:58:16 am

I personally would like to see a couple of really good Fed BB's come out of this. Everyone hang in there ... there's got to be an answer.

EXACTLY!

I'm after something specific... But my taste doesn't suit everyone, this I know. I'm gonna make sure I get what I'm after tho, but like Ol Buz said, if we get a few different designs from the ideas of all the suggestions in this thread, then it was a damned good thread.

Mb we can have a beauty pagent when this is all over and declare the best looking BB or something... hehe. I'll throw my money in the ring right now.

Ya know Dizzey .. funny thing ... that is how the Titan came about. Azel did one (along with WZ .. ) and someone one found one at another web site ( big sucker too! ... nicely done ) .. And there was a pole taken.. I submitted a sketch ... Azel cleaned it up ( it had been about 30 years since I have done any sketches at that time). The version of the Titan you saw in that "refit" thread I posted was the result. That was the start for me getting back into "modeling" again. Since then we have been doing MUCH better as a result.

All of that because someone took the time to do exactly what you are doing right now.

This can be a good opportunity for all of us.

I intend to try to find the time to clean up one of those old drawings ... and post it for ya (after MP and Azel take a gander at it!)

Come on guys ....

lets do this ... !

Then I want to do a proper Klingon counter part to it.

thanks

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #93 on:** September 13, 2005, 11:36:37 am »

Quote

I intend to try to find the time to clean up one of those old drawings ... and post it for ya (after MP and Azel take a gander at it!)

PM it on over and I'll take a gander at it and get it to Azel when I see him.
-MP

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #94 on:** September 13, 2005, 12:08:54 pm »

Okay, since it seems that the stock yamato uses excelsior hulls, thats exactly what im going to do.
Now my Jupiter uses Excel2 (lakota) parts, so this one will use all connie parts except the secondary hull which will use Excel1 hulls.

My question for all of you is do you want me to use a Miranda saucer or a Connie?

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #95 on:** September 13, 2005, 12:27:18 pm »

Quote from: Furyofaseraph on September 13, 2005, 12:08:54 pm

Okay, since it seems that the stock yamato uses excelsior hulls, thats exactly what im going to do.
Now my Jupiter uses Excel2 (lakota) parts, so this one will use all connie parts except the secondary hull which will use Excel1 hulls.

My question for all of you is do you want me to use a Miranda saucer or a Connie?

Why not an Ambassador .. but change the bridge area. Also if ya use 4 nacelles ... there has to be a good way to mount them. I've seen a couple (but it's been a while).

DuctTapeWonder · « **Reply #96 on:** September 13, 2005, 09:17:26 pm »

Quote from: Furyofaseraph on September 13, 2005, 12:08:54 pm

Okay, since it seems that the stock yamato uses excelsior hulls, thats exactly what im going to do.
Now my Jupiter uses Excel2 (lakota) parts, so this one will use all connie parts except the secondary hull which will use Excel1 hulls.

My question for all of you is do you want me to use a Miranda saucer or a Connie?

I reckon you ought to use the primary from the Ulysses I reckon.

S33K100 · « **Reply #97 on:** September 13, 2005, 09:37:42 pm »

Wouldn't work, edges slope upwards like on Connie generation and previous ships rather than downward like Excelsior/Lexington/Ambassador generation ships. Also the impulse unit at the back is welded to the rest of the mesh. This will cause problems when trying to join the saucer to a centre hull as you'd need to remove it causing an odd shaped hole that might be visible. All in all the Excelsior, Lexington, or Ambassador hull all have the correct shape, they just need to be slightly stretched to make the size of the Yamato saucer.

Antivyrus · « **Reply #98 on:** September 13, 2005, 11:08:57 pm »

teaser

Mr_Tricorder · « **Reply #99 on:** September 13, 2005, 11:14:16 pm »

lookin' good so far. I tried to remake the stock FBB a few months ago, but the mesh went badly asymetrical on me (this taught me a few quirks about scaling) and I didn't want to take the time to fix it, so it's sitting unfinised on my hard drive.

Dizzy · « **Reply #100 on:** September 14, 2005, 04:09:17 am »

Thisi is a fantastic project here. SG5 dynaverse server is getting started and the Feds will field a F-BB. I'm getting excited!

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #101 on:** September 14, 2005, 07:53:01 am »

Quote from: Antivyrus on September 13, 2005, 11:08:57 pm

teaser

hey AV ... just a couple of thoughts .. redo the pylons .. they take away from the model ( one of my pet peeves about the BB provided in the OP game)

Fedman NCC-3758 · « **Reply #102 on:** September 14, 2005, 09:48:39 am »

Just a suggestion.........

Any chance of adding a little depth to the saucer section....... instead of the pancake look?

Thanks,
Fed

FPF-DieHard · « **Reply #103 on:** September 14, 2005, 10:32:28 am »

Quote from: Dizzy on September 14, 2005, 04:09:17 am

Thisi is a fantastic project here. SG5 dynaverse server is getting started and the Feds will field a F-BB. I'm getting excited!

no!!!!!!! I'm having F-Turnmode Flashbacks!!!!!! Make it stop!!!! Make it stop!!!!

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #104 on:** September 14, 2005, 10:37:14 am »

I spoke to Antivyrus yesterday and he told me that this first BB he's doing will be STOCK as compared to the original one. Great news is he will be doing a NEW BB as well. We spoke about the saucer, the weapons pods, the nacelles etc. and I'm sure any suggestions will be considered in his new BB design. That guy has MAD SKILLS !!!!!! Even if he is a model tease LOL j/k. Hope that helps to answer some of the questions

-MP

S33K100 · « **Reply #105 on:** September 14, 2005, 02:51:23 pm »

Lookin good, and by good I mean frackin awesome, I like the pancake look of the saucer, I mean it is actually deep, it just looks flat cause of the really huge diameter.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #106 on:** September 15, 2005, 12:41:30 am »

This is one of my personal favorite ships, if you add 2 nacelles to the bottom(matching the top ones. I think it would make a great BB for SFC. But first a new mesh needs to be done.

DeepThought · « **Reply #107 on:** September 16, 2005, 01:25:41 pm »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on September 15, 2005, 12:41:30 am

This is one of my personal favorite ships, if you add 2 nacelles to the bottom(matching the top ones. I think it would make a great BB for SFC. But first a new mesh needs to be done.

YES!!!

-DT

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #108 on:** September 17, 2005, 05:22:29 pm »

I couldn't resist.........here it is

Excellentia-class Battleship

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/files/dist/index.php/file,bb640773c9475ba1242f5097ea7c57bf.zip

That should do till AV get's the new Yamato finished.
Enjoy !!!!!
-MP

News:

Topic: I want TMP version of this ship. Compare TOS and TNG pics... (Read 17170 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Topic: I want TMP version of this ship. Compare TOS and TNG pics... (Read 17170 times)