Topic: Martian sand dunes full of ice.  (Read 6578 times)

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Offline Nemesis

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Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« on: September 07, 2005, 09:48:32 am »
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Earth has plenty of these ice-rich sand dunes, which tend to form distinctive features, such as overhanging cornices, which cannot form in arid sand. According to the FT some of the best examples can be found in Alaska and Antarctica.

By studying high resolution snaps of the Martian surface, Bourke was able to identify many of these features in the North Polar Sand Sea and southern crater dune fields, and so conclude that Mars boasts similar niveo-aeolian deposits.

Some of the dunes might contain substantial quantities of water, she predicts. One in particular, which, at four miles long by 1,558 feet high, is the largest dune in the solar system, could be as much as 40 or 50 per cent H2O in its upper layers.
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2005, 10:55:01 am »
Humanity is never going to give up hope of finding life on Mars... 


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Offline Iceman

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2005, 11:29:03 am »
Why should we? You've got to have something to shoot for.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 11:32:18 am »
Humanity is never going to give up hope of finding life on Mars... 

We will find it. 

Even if we have to terraform Mars to do so. 
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 12:18:53 pm »
Who cares if there's life on Mars?  As long as there's life on Earth, that's good enough for me...  I do think we should explore Mars of course, I think we should explore the whole solar system, but I think life on Mars is a pipe dream...

I have serious doubts over whether the canals on Mars were created by water at all...   Just because they look like riverbeds and canyons on Earth doesn't mean they were created in the same way...   They also are strikingly similar to the rilles on the moon, and the moon has never had large amounts of water on it... 

Mars is interesting to me in the answers it can give concerning the origins of the solar system, and when we explore the solar system it should be a search for enlightenment and experiences, not mirrors of our own form of life...


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2005, 11:02:15 pm »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 02:54:57 am »
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The new company, 4Frontiers, plans to mine Mars for building materials and energy sources, and export the planet's mineral wealth to forthcoming space stations on the moon and elsewhere.

The company also wants to build the first permanent human settlement on Mars, using strictly Martian materials, as early as 2025.

The idea is to make Mars a center for needs of the solar system economy, said Bruce Mackenzie, co-founder of 4Frontiers and the company's vice president and outreach director.

"Mars happens to be a good place for these crucial minerals," said Mackenzie. "You have them all in one spot."

"Carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen are all scarce on the moon, but readily available on Mars," said Joseph Palaia, 4Frontiers' other co-founder and vice president of operations and research and development. And while oxygen is available in both locations, "it is easier to extract on Mars," he said.


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 03:51:44 am »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

A lot of scientists even today are fairly convinced that the rilles on Mars were created by water...  I think it's a bit early to do anything more than keep an open mind on that subject...  One of the trains of thought that leads to most erroneous theorizing is the notion that because a phenomenon looks similar to something familiar, it must be related to it in some way.  This is not always the case...


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Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 10:21:58 am »
DM's Waterless Alternate Theories for Observed Features of Martian Dunes

1) That sticky goo always dripping off those pesky aliens
2) Somebody is using Lowell's telescope again....
3) Cloaking device distortion from a Romulan base
4) Prankster hosed down new construction in NASA's "Mars fake landing soundstage" in Area 51
5) UK rag takes cocktail comment from enthusiast at poorly attended science festival and makes big splash via internet
6) How should I know? It's a freakin' another planet for goodness sakes!
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 11:18:14 am »
There is more evidence than the dune shapes. 

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By measuring neutrons, it is possible to calculate the abundance of hydrogen on Mars, thus inferring the presence of water. The neutron detectors are sensitive to concentrations of hydrogen in the upper meter of the surface. Like a virtual shovel "digging into" the surface, the spectrometer allows scientists to peer into this shallow subsurface of Mars and measures the amount of hydrogen that exists there. Since hydrogen is most likely present in the form of water ice, the spectrometer is able to measure directly the amount of permanent ground ice and how it changes with the seasons.


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After completing its primary mission, Spirit drove about two miles from its landing site to the Columbia Hills, where it found rocks, older than the lava flows forming the floor of Gusev crater, that contained water-related minerals.

"Every single rock in the hills has shown alteration by liquid water," Squyres said.

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 11:47:22 am »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...


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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 04:11:13 pm »
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Europe's Mars Express probe may have found evidence for a band of ice that once spanned the Martian equator.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 07:17:17 pm »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...

Aye there are other things that have hydrogen in them, but how many of them are as stable as dihydrogen oxide?  (actual question here as i really really hate chemistry), the only thing that comes to mind are CH3 and all them organic compounds, but that wouldn't  be to probably on mars me thinks
Rob

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2005, 07:58:48 pm »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...

Aye there are other things that have hydrogen in them, but how many of them are as stable as dihydrogen oxide?  (actual question here as i really really hate chemistry), the only thing that comes to mind are CH3 and all them organic compounds, but that wouldn't  be to probably on mars me thinks

I think you mean CH4 which is methane...  CH3 wouold not be stable as Hydrogen has valence 1 and Carbon valence 4...  To discover a planet with large quantities of oxygen and methane in it's atmosphere is what I believe you would call a "slam dunk" in the states...   The Martian atmosphere is like a test tube with all the chemical equations in it in a nice balanced dynamic equilibrium...  Actually all the planets in the Solar System are except one...   Three guesses what one, if you need them...


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2005, 10:24:28 pm »
Gamma Hydra V?

Beta Iotia?

Talos IV?

Do I get my Star Cluster?

Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2005, 04:04:52 am »
Gamma Hydra V?

Beta Iotia?

Talos IV?

Do I get my Star Cluster?

Those are objects in our Solar System?


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2005, 10:49:31 am »
Hey, extra credit, man.

Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2005, 10:58:58 am »
thanks for the correction prom... as i said i hate chemistry ;)
Rob

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2005, 12:48:09 pm »
Hey, extra credit, man.


Straight to the top of the class... ;)     +1 back for having a sense of humour about my dodgy Neil Armstrong Joke... 


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2005, 12:50:30 pm »
thanks for the correction prom... as i said i hate chemistry ;)

Me too...   My Biochemical Scientist Dad talked me into studying it at University when I was younger...  Some drinking spree that was...   :o


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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 11:31:54 am »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

This is absolutely true, but further more, even these "channels" were later identified to be optical illusions. There are no channels or canals on Mars at all.

The science fiction writer, Edgar Rice Burroughs took up the theme of canals on Mars and wrote a series of books about Martian adventures that became popular at the time. They were written from 1917 to 1964, 11 books in all, and he is often compared with H.G. Wells and H. Rider Haggard. Burroughs is most well known for the creation of the character Tarzan who featured in 24 of his novels.

It is well known today that there is in fact a huge amount of water on Mars. Most of it is locked up as frozen ice mixed in with dry ice (drozen carbon dioxide) in the polar regions of the planet. It is also thought that a lot of of frozen water ice is buried in the permafrost of the surface and were all the water to melt on Mars, it would create a planet wide ocean 13 kms deep.

The temperature on Mars ranges from -200C in winter to a balmy -20C in summer. Flowing liquid water, id therefore, not an unreasonable prospect to have occurred on the surface of the planet, especially in its past when the planet was warmer.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2005, 12:49:15 am »
Those temperatures are true means. but the record observed temperature at the equator was 80 degrees farenheit. Definitely human friendly and definitely water friendly. unfortunately it was very brief and very much rare.  Still it shows that Mars can achieve that temp even at that distance with that atmosphere. this obviosly has implications for terraforming efforts.

Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2005, 10:02:26 am »
Temperature is not the only factor....

PV=nRT

Martian atmospheric pressure is on average only about 7 millibars (less than 1% of Earth's).
While on Earth liquid water can exist between 0 and 100C, on Mars it's limited to 0 to 10C.
And that 0-10C range is in the most favorable high pressure places (~ 9 millibar).

Don't like that little trip back down Chemistry 101 lane? Doesn't make sense?!?
Take a gander at the high-altitude cooking directions for the box of Hamburger Helper you made for dinner for a reality check (Hamburger Helper? come on guys, fess up....you know who you are...). And that's for something like 9000 ft (ie still almost 9X Martian pressure).

You'll not be making noodles on Mars.....



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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2005, 01:31:04 pm »
Thanks DM. I'm aware of all that. I'm just saying even as far away from the sun as Mars is, even with that atmosphere (including pressure) temperatures as high as 80 degrees were recorded by the vikings and other probes. even out there there is a balmy sunny day awaiting.

Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2005, 07:52:46 pm »
Even if the atmosphere somehow gets to earth's pressure, or something similar, how thick is the atmospheregoing to have to be to maintain a comfortale temprerature, if it's even possible?  Or would we be confined to the equatorial zones?
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2005, 08:00:15 pm »
Even if the atmosphere somehow gets to earth's pressure, or something similar, how thick is the atmospheregoing to have to be to maintain a comfortale temprerature, if it's even possible?  Or would we be confined to the equatorial zones?

 That depends on several factors any one of which or combination of which can stabilize the temperature on mars.

atmospheric pressure.
type of gases present
dstance from sun
convection currents in atmosphere and or oceans.
active tectonics and radioactive isotopes in core, mantle and crust

as you know on earth all of these are interrelated and cooperate to give us our liveable biosphere.

on mars it would not take much because it does ocasionally get to 80 degrees anyway without a complex interrelated feedback system like we have.

Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2005, 09:04:58 pm »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2005, 09:11:37 pm »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)
True but as DM calculated it would take 16 million years for it to go away. that is many orders of magnitude greater than the entire existence of our species let alone civilization. plenty of time. even enough to solve that problem if necessary.

Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2005, 10:28:29 pm »
Oops.  I should read more!  Apologies to DM.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2005, 10:33:29 pm »
Oops.  I should read more!  Apologies to DM.


Nah. I think he did it in my original "let's build a planet thread" back before the taldren change over to Dnet.

Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2005, 10:38:34 pm »
No excuse.  I think I was following that thread, too, before it got kind of... long...

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2005, 10:49:09 pm »
Thats because it was good!  :P

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2005, 12:17:27 am »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)



The Moon With an Atmosphere

Even before the Voyager encounters with Saturn, astronomers thought that Titan might have an atmosphere. They also thought that there might be oceans of liquid methane on the Moon's surface. When the Voyager spacecraft finally arrived, all that could be seen of Titan was a dense and impenetrable layer of clouds in a thick atmosphere. Titan was found to have an atmosphere more dense than that of Earth and Mars. The atmospheric pressure at the surface is believed to be about 1.6 bars, about 60% greater that on Earth. The atmosphere is composed primarily of Nitrogen with traces of other hydrocarbons such as ethane, hydrogen cyanide, and carbon dioxide. This gives it a rich, orange color. These atmospheric elements are necessary building blocks for life. Astronomers believe that Titan may resemble the Earth at an early stage in its development. They also think that Titan is a prime candidate for the possibility of extraterrestrial life. Titan's surface temperature averages -289°F (-178° C).

http://www.seasky.org/solarsystem/sky3g7.html

Mars is most definately capable of supporting an atmosphere that has the same pressure as Earth.

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Offline Dracho

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2005, 10:15:32 am »
If you threw ceres at mars, wouldn't it have water and a whole bunch more mass?

It might be a hundred years before the dust settles.. but..
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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2005, 10:36:18 am »
You might just wind up with broken pieces of meatballs if you stir the pot too hard!

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2005, 01:19:54 pm »
If you threw ceres at mars, wouldn't it have water and a whole bunch more mass?

It might be a hundred years before the dust settles.. but..

better throw it a bit at a time.

Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2005, 10:24:44 pm »
What the heck are you guys talking about?!?

We can't even terraform Cleveland.
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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2005, 10:28:07 pm »
Well, at least if there is water on Mars or Ceres, it won't catch on fire.  :P  ::)  ;D

Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2005, 10:50:18 pm »
0 to 100 is a shorter distance than -60 to 100 :p


which is to say starting from scratch is easier than fixing Cleveland
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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2005, 11:26:06 pm »
I'll never forget that image... I was hoping it WAS a alien planet!

Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2005, 08:16:42 am »
If you threw ceres at mars, wouldn't it have water and a whole bunch more mass?

It might be a hundred years before the dust settles.. but..

Throwing Ceres at Mars could be a little difficult...   :o


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2005, 08:20:56 am »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)



The Moon With an Atmosphere

Even before the Voyager encounters with Saturn, astronomers thought that Titan might have an atmosphere. They also thought that there might be oceans of liquid methane on the Moon's surface. When the Voyager spacecraft finally arrived, all that could be seen of Titan was a dense and impenetrable layer of clouds in a thick atmosphere. Titan was found to have an atmosphere more dense than that of Earth and Mars. The atmospheric pressure at the surface is believed to be about 1.6 bars, about 60% greater that on Earth. The atmosphere is composed primarily of Nitrogen with traces of other hydrocarbons such as ethane, hydrogen cyanide, and carbon dioxide. This gives it a rich, orange color. These atmospheric elements are necessary building blocks for life. Astronomers believe that Titan may resemble the Earth at an early stage in its development. They also think that Titan is a prime candidate for the possibility of extraterrestrial life. Titan's surface temperature averages -289°F (-178° C).

http://www.seasky.org/solarsystem/sky3g7.html

Mars is most definately capable of supporting an atmosphere that has the same pressure as Earth.




You have to remember though, that the Atmosphere on Titan has far less kinetic energy than it would on Mars, due to the distance from the Sun...  Titan is a kind of frigid analogue of Earth in some senses, with, as you say, an atmosphere abundant in Nitrogen but if this Moon was moved into the Martian orbit, how long would it take this atmosphere to be eroded by the solar wind?  Also, does Titan have a strong magnetic field?  The Van Allen belts are the only thing protecting our atmosphere from being eroded and blown off into space...


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2005, 08:21:54 am »
What the heck are you guys talking about?!?

We can't even terraform Cleveland.

Cleveland?  There are parts of Glasgow that haven't even been terraformed yet... ;)


To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe!