Topic: Vista and planned obsolescence?  (Read 8669 times)

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Offline Nemesis

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Vista and planned obsolescence?
« on: January 18, 2007, 08:02:17 pm »
First I wish to make clear that this is just my personal speculation based on the information presented below.

The facts:

Link to article

Quote
However, for those running the "release candidate 1" version of the software--the most broadly distributed of the Vista test versions--the TV feature stopped working on December 31.

Microsoft blamed the issue on the fact that it has a paid license for the video decoder and Dolby sound technology, and it only licensed those through December 31. The overall RC1 software is not scheduled to expire until June.


When I first read this it seemed reasonable to me but it bugged me and I kept thinking about it.  Here is what bugged me.  When a company licenses something to put in their product the standard is that they can produce and sell a product with the licensed material for a set time, when that time runs out the product already sold does not have the functions deactivated.  Microsoft broke that behavior. 

Now apply Microsofts newly demonstrated licensing of 3rd party components to the production copy of Vista, once Vista II is ready for market will those components in Vista begin to deactivate?  Will you be told that you must upgrade to Vista II to be able to continue using those functions?  If so then Microsoft will have converted Windows into the subscription model that they have long wanted anytime Microsoft wants they can force a new upgrade cycle on the Windows using world.

Is this the plan or am I reading something that isn't there into Microsofts actions?  Only Microsoft knows currently, you and I may guess but not know until it happens or (hopefully) doesn't.
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Offline Just plain old Punisher

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2007, 08:31:49 pm »
Beyond that, there are dozens of free audio and video codecs out there. If one stops working, windows media should just automatically download another.


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Offline Centurus

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2007, 01:46:42 pm »
I personally think you're on to something.  Microsoft has implemented a number of new conditions and such for Vista.  It may be the most advanced OS Microsoft has ever made, supposedly, but it's also one of the most restricted.  Personally, I'm trying to find a way to get myself a VLK for XP Pro, so I don't have to activate XP each time I install it, but getting such a key is difficult, and expensive.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a new round of lawsuits are filed against Microsoft after Vista is released, and that Vista sales are hurt big time. 
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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2007, 07:06:39 pm »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.  Jack, you might want to make a note of it!
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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2007, 09:35:21 pm »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.  Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2007, 11:28:09 pm »
Beyond that, there are dozens of free audio and video codecs out there. If one stops working, windows media should just automatically download another.


Initially I thought the same but I was wrong.

Quote
Some enthusiasts have installed their own third-party video decoders. But that won't solve the TV issue, as many have discovered.


If you go to the link in that quote from the article it is to a discussion on Microsofts own site. 

The quote below is from one of the posts there.  Several others say the same thing.
Quote
I am fully aware of the timebomb within the MPEG 2 decoder and to fix this several months ago purchased and installed the NVidia decoder so I am certain that this is not the issue (i.e. you can discount this from the equation).


It appears that Microsoft disables the subsystem not just the codec.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2007, 11:50:31 pm »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.  Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.

For Apple sales to surge they would need more production capacity.  Clones would supply that but after the way clone producers were burned by Jobs last time he might find them reluctant to try agains without irrevocable contracts to produce them. 

I'd like to see Apple take about 30% of the market and Linux (and BSD) take another 30% as it would make a viable competitive market place unlike the current situation where Microsoft thinks it can do whatever it wants (and is almost right).
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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 12:04:45 am »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.† Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.

the current version does work on clone PCs.  You just need to hack your BIOS to make it think it's a Mac.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2007, 10:27:39 am »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.  Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.

the current version does work on clone PCs.  You just need to hack your BIOS to make it think it's a Mac.

Which unfortunately means no pre installs, no tech support and any patches may or may not toast your system and if buying a machine from a major company (Dell for example) you will still be paying for Windows.

I'd really like to see the Mac OS sold for generic machines.  Competition in the market place is needed and the Mac OS could provide it on the desktop.  How quickly do you think Microsoft would drop MS Office on Mac though?

Unfortunately I suspect that Apple would work just as hard as Microsoft to tie you to their software and OS.  Apple seems quite happy to use DRM techniques.
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Offline Mr_Tricorder

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2007, 02:54:38 pm »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.  Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.

the current version does work on clone PCs.  You just need to hack your BIOS to make it think it's a Mac.

Which unfortunately means no pre installs, no tech support and any patches may or may not toast your system and if buying a machine from a major company (Dell for example) you will still be paying for Windows.

I'd really like to see the Mac OS sold for generic machines.  Competition in the market place is needed and the Mac OS could provide it on the desktop.  How quickly do you think Microsoft would drop MS Office on Mac though?

Unfortunately I suspect that Apple would work just as hard as Microsoft to tie you to their software and OS.  Apple seems quite happy to use DRM techniques.
Actually, I think Apple is even MORE into DRM and various vender-lock techniques than Microsoft.  Everything from Apples attitude about people trying to use Macintosh on non-Apple systems to the DRM mess that permeates through iPods, iTunes, and such to their "no third-party apps" stance on their new iPhone tells me that they want to have as tight of a grip on consumers as possible.  In my opinion, the only thing that is really keeping them in check is the fact that they're still being overshadowed by Microsoft.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 10:22:15 am »
Actually, I think Apple is even MORE into DRM and various vender-lock techniques than Microsoft.  Everything from Apples attitude about people trying to use Macintosh on non-Apple systems to the DRM mess that permeates through iPods, iTunes, and such to their "no third-party apps" stance on their new iPhone tells me that they want to have as tight of a grip on consumers as possible.  In my opinion, the only thing that is really keeping them in check is the fact that they're still being overshadowed by Microsoft.


I'm not so sure of that.

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

Quote
A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

Peter Gutmann, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Last updated 19 January 2007
Distributed under the Creative Commons license (see Appendix)

(A note to readers: The reaction to what started out as an obscure technical post to a security mailing list has been rather unexpected and overwhelming, so I'm totally buried in Vista email at the moment. Please be patient when expecting replies, and apologies if I can't reply to all messages).
(I'm aware of Microsoft's recently-posted response to this writeup, I'll be posting an analysis when I get time over the next few days).
Executive Summary

Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources. Providing this protection incurs considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost. These issues affect not only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server). This document analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry.

Executive Executive Summary

The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history [Note A].


The whole article linked to is much longer but the summary does get the point across..
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2007, 04:04:26 pm »
so out of curiosity, has any of you actually tried vista... i mean there was an open beta. 

Heck i'm posting this from vista...
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2007, 04:20:04 pm »
You know, at least in the gaming world, a standardized Linux core should be agreed upon, called Gameux, and the development studios jump onboard whole-hog.

Gaming drives the hardware development and I'll wager it could at least scare the hell out of Microsoft on the OS side.
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Offline Javora

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2007, 05:13:21 pm »
You know, at least in the gaming world, a standardized Linux core should be agreed upon, called Gameux, and the development studios jump onboard whole-hog.

Gaming drives the hardware development and I'll wager it could at least scare the hell out of Microsoft on the OS side.

Problem is that more then just that.  Microsoft has itself embedded with over 85% of all PC's.  Not a lot of people want to take the time to duel-boot.  That doesn't even take into account that game makers don't want to spend time and money to make a game for a OS that may or may not take off as a gaming platform.  I don't think this has as much to do with game makers not being able to make games work on the different Linux flavors.  Game makers have been making programs to run Linux servers for some time.  I don't buy that game makers can make their servers work but not the entire game.  If Linux people can port games over to Linux than it should be possible for game makers to make the game run on Linux right out of the box.  Neverwinter Nights anyone??!?  It may take a lot of extra work however which goes back to market share, time, money, and maybe even some security issues.

While I think it would be easier for game makers to some extent to make games on one Linux standard.  It is not so much that it would be a lot easier for game makers if they had one Linux standard to work with as it would eliminate the multiple Linux excuse companies have to bash Linux over the head with.  Frankly Linux has been around more then long enough to have it's act together in this respect.  There is no reason not to have a unified Linux by now, IMHO Linux's continued survival depends on it.  Regardless the ball is in Linux's court to get its house in order and have all the excuses on Linux's side eliminated before we see anything from the game makers or any other developer for that matter.

Offline Centurus

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2007, 05:50:14 pm »
so out of curiosity, has any of you actually tried vista... i mean there was an open beta.†

Heck i'm posting this from vista...

Yep, I have.  I have RC1.  After using it for a couple months, I found that, aside from the new look, it doesn't really offer much more than XP does.  Love the graphics, but it's not very important.  I like the games though, and that built in security feature asking if you want to allow actions to continue, while useful, gets annoying after a while.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2007, 08:36:02 pm »
so out of curiosity, has any of you actually tried vista... i mean there was an open beta. 

Heck i'm posting this from vista...

I stopped "upgrading" Windows version with 2000Pro, XPs activation was the last straw for me.  If and when Microsoft allows me to use the software I bought with all the rights the law allows I might consider another Microsoft OS otherwise I'll continue my migration to Linux.

Everything I've read says that Vista is loaded down with enough DRM that if I used it I'd be tempted to go postal at the nearest Microsoft office.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2007, 09:08:54 pm »
You know, at least in the gaming world, a standardized Linux core should be agreed upon, called Gameux, and the development studios jump onboard whole-hog.


The main problems are the video and sound card companies that keep their drivers totally proprietary so they can't be kept up to date along with the other drivers in the kernel.  That restricts what cards you can use and how high the performance gets. 

Intel has begun to release source for their devices, hopefully that will put pressure on nVidea, ATi and Creative to do the same or cede the Linux market to Intel.

The Doom and Quake games all work on Linux so it shows that the gaming companies can support Linux if they want to. 

Gaming drives the hardware development and I'll wager it could at least scare the hell out of Microsoft on the OS side.


Microsoft is scared already, though not everyone sees it.  Companies are making sure that Microsoft sales people see their Linux efforts so Microsoft cuts them a deal to make Windows more attractive.  It doesn't even matter if you would use Linux all that is needed is the perception from Microsoft that you might.  Microsoft wouldn't cut deals that way if they didn't think the customers could migrate to Linux.  If Microsoft thinks their customers could migrate to Linux and away from Windows who am I to disagree (as I continue my own Linux migration)?

Microsoft waged an ad campaign called "Get the Facts" against Linux (and was nailed for false advertising in England and South Africa).  Microsoft spends huge amounts fighting Linux and they wouldn't bother if Linux were not viewed as a threat.  Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have both spoken out about Linux in attempts to tarnish it but Linux just keeps growing, slowly yes but inexorably.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 05:40:15 am »
so out of curiosity, has any of you actually tried vista... i mean there was an open beta.†

Heck i'm posting this from vista...

I stopped "upgrading" Windows version with 2000Pro, XPs activation was the last straw for me.† If and when Microsoft allows me to use the software I bought with all the rights the law allows I might consider another Microsoft OS otherwise I'll continue my migration to Linux.

Everything I've read says that Vista is loaded down with enough DRM that if I used it I'd be tempted to go postal at the nearest Microsoft office.

And where exactly is the bad part in all of this?  I know my mom sometimes feels like probably punching out Bill Gates.  Who knows, when Vista comes out, I might be able to talk her into buying a Mac.  :-p
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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2007, 06:33:24 am »
Tell her to get a Mini.  That way she doesn't have to throw out her monitor, keyboard and mouse.
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Re: Vista and planned obsolescence?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2007, 08:30:19 am »
Apple sales are going to go through the roof.† Jack, you might want to make a note of it!

I"d kind of like Apple to make a version of their OS that would work on all the IBM clone type machines.

I don't think Apple will do that.  Right now they have an extremely advanced OS that is very stable.  I mean, my XP system is on the fritz and I have hardly used it over the last 18 months, whereas my iBook runs most of the time while I am awake and works nearly flawlessly.  Put that same OS in a generic PC and it may sound great, but putting OS X on random machines like that makes things very difficult as far as tech support from Apple goes, and seriously detract from the stability of the OS.  Iím thinking that is why Apple is such a PITA over itís OS- they are proud of their product and want it to remain high quality, and the best way to do that is make sure that they know what will be working inside of it.  Through in all these generic drivers from random computer companies and things get very messy.
I canít speak to the clones thing, been a long time since I have read anything on that subject. 
As for Apple and DRM, AFAIK, Apple had to agree to most, if nto all of that crap in order to get the deals they neded to make iPods and iTunes and whatnot to work.  Otherwise, no record company deals, no TV shows sold on iTunes, etc etc.  I personally expect the DRM issue to get a lot worse after what M$ did with their Zune player (pay royalties to record companies for every Zune sold).  Iím betting it was a bad move over all and will start the ball swinging to take power away from Apple and make DRM far more pervasive on computing in general.
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