Topic: Enterprise from the new Star Trek XI movie Picture

[Vipre]

Lets not go through the whole retcon thing again, there's already a thread out there on the topic where it's all been said already.

To repeat...

One shot of rear phasers and one of a torpedo, then replay over and over as needed. I don't buy for a second that they didn't have the money for two shots.

The TOS ship didn't have rear phasers or torpedoes because they didn't want it to simple as that. The writers of "In a Mirror Darkly" needed the Defiant to fire in the rear arc so it did again simple as that.

"They must have always been there because they were there in that one episode of a completely different series on a different ship." is weak. Not enough cash for two shots in 79 episodes is weaker still.

[Pestalence_XC]

OK.. going back to canon..

the NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise was not a "Constitution Class" starship.. It was a "Starship Class" Space Ship as cited in TOS The Cage and by the registration plaque located next to the turbolift door.

the only Enterprise listed as a "Constitution Class" was the NCC-1701-A as seen on the ships blueprints in Scotty's hand.

The NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise after the initial refit for TMP was christened "Enterprise Class" as shown on the Kobiashi Maru test simulator door which used the Enterprise and the base design.

Going by what Gene Roddenberry stated about Trek.. Each ship was designed to fill a specific duty roll.. as such, the "Starship Class" could fill many Duty rolls.. Defiant may have been on the Romulan front lines, thus needing more firepower. Enterprise was designed for deep exploration, thus more labs, shields and fewer weapons.

Both ships are of the same hull design, but different duty rolls..

First of line ship designations did not come about until Enterprise was refit from Starship Class to Enterprise Class.

the NCC-1700 Constitution was not the First of Line ship for the Starship Class.. there are hull registries older than NCC-1700.. there were 12 NCC-17xx ships launched on 5 year missions, the Enterprise was the only one to come home relatively intact.

as such, going back to topic, the Enterprise not showing weapons does not mean she did not have them, however, according to Gene Roddenberry, what is shown on screen is canon, in books it's fan made.

If Kirk did not have the ability to use Rear Arc Torpedos, then most likely the ship was not built with them.. however the phaser banks are Omni Directional turrents.. thus RA phasers is reasonable to assume accurate.

[Panzergranate]

The thing is that the aft Phaser is canon as it is heard reporting as ready in TOS episodes, though it is never seen firing, usually because the plot usually has the Enterprise standing down from red alert.

Remeber that we seem to be assuming that the armament of the Enterprise is as in the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph apparently, which had the torpedoes firing form under the bridge and not from where they fired in TOS episodes, which was from either side of the under saucer dome.
 
From where the torpedoes fire in TOS they could have also fired aft past the neck, which is what the Defiant is seen to do.

I've never been blind enough to see the problem with this.

If you take the Star Fleet Technical Manual's line, the Defiant was an "Achanar" Class warship variant of the Constitution Class, going by the registry number.

Also, taking the registry number into account, the Defiant was several decades younger than the Enterprise, so is more likely not of the same class, or build to a different specification.

[Pestalence_XC]

The thing is that the aft Phaser is canon as it is heard reporting as ready in TOS episodes, though it is never seen firing, usually because the plot usually has the Enterprise standing down from red alert.

Remeber that we seem to be assuming that the armament of the Enterprise is as in the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph apparently, which had the torpedoes firing form under the bridge and not from where they fired in TOS episodes, which was from either side of the under saucer dome.
 
From where the torpedoes fire in TOS they could have also fired aft past the neck, which is what the Defiant is seen to do.

I've never been blind enough to see the problem with this.

If you take the Star Fleet Technical Manual's line, the Defiant was an "Achanar" Class warship variant of the Constitution Class, going by the registry number.

Also, taking the registry number into account, the Defiant was several decades younger than the Enterprise, so is more likely not of the same class, or build to a different specification.

The point you are missing is that Gene Roddenberry, the Creator of Trek, stated Franz Joseph's work is NOT canon for Trek, only what is seen on screen. The book did not follow what Gene stated the properties for Federation Tech should be.

On screen, the Torpedos fire only forward, and going by what Gene stated, that means the Torpedo Launchers on the Enterprise only fired in the FA, not the RA... by Gene's definition, Enterprise did not have RA torpedos.. however that does not mean all the Starship Class did not have RA Torpedos...

There were no Name Class ships in TOS, there were only Duty ships.. Achanar and Constitution Class did not exist in Kirk's era.. The first Constitution Class ship is a Refit from the Enterprise Class to incorporate new Trans Warp Drive engines as Scotty stated in ST V and ST VI...

TNG made an error or an adjustment to canon at the Dysonsphere when Scotty ws in the Holodeck and Piccard referred to it as a Constitution Class ship.. however, Gene stated in an interview, confirmed by his wife Majel Barrett before he died, that it was to comemorate the 11 Deep Space Starship Class Ships that were lost, not to change Canon. Basically the Constitution Class designation was technically a footnote that supposedly stuck to the hull design in the Starfleet Academy (to appease RW the fan base)...

Everyone now calls the hull Constitution Class, when in fact the Dedication plaque, "The Cage", and "The Magerie" (sp) clearly showed that the ship was not a "Constitution Class" but a "Starship Class" Space Ship  .. watch an Enhanced DVD of TOS and pause, take a screen shot when the Plaque is visable, section out the plaque in Photoshop or Paintshop, zoom in and read it.. it is right there in bold text letters.

The Movie has not yet broke canon concerning the Enterprise from what is available.. the ship shown is still at least 9 to 11 years before Kirk gets her per canon.. First Captain Robert April, then Captain Christopher Pike, then Captain James T. Kirk...

There is pleanty of timeline there to show the early stage of the Enterprise's life before TOS takes place at the end of Pikes career as Captain and the beginning of Kirk's as Captain.. There is no mention of how many refits the ship underwent before TOS occurred.. and you have to remember, the Movie is suppose to have Old Spock talking to Young Spock at the Starfleet Academy, as such, Spock has not yet been qualified for a command post, nor is he assigned to a ship, and from the movie preview, the Enterprise is not yet built and Robert April has not yet taken command..

Anyhow, there are too many variables to consider before anyone condems the ship.. as as stated earlier in this thread, maybe some design flaws necessitated the ships refits / retrofits to make her into the TOS Enterprise we all love.

[Panzergranate]

That is what I was pointing out.... that folks take the Star Fleet Technical Manual as the spec for the Enterprise.

Also the Defiant isn't the Enterprise but a different ship.... so when folks say the Enterprise diesn't have aft torpedoes, then it doesn't.

The Defiant, however, is a different ship and maybe a different class. It is llost after being sent to investigate the previous loses of other vessels. I would think that Star Fleet would send a warship to investigate such events.

The Enterprrise, being the next nearest ship, is sent o investigate both the Defiant and the other loses.

The ship could be the original ship that Robert April takes command of for a 5 year mission. The ship would need refitting after this and perhaps new technology has come into existance by the time April returns, requiring a refit.

The ship is refitted when Pike completes one of his five year missions as the crew capacity is boosted from 203 to 428.

The TMP Enterprise had standard Warp Drive, though of a slightly improved type. Only the Excelsior is stated to have Trans Warp Drive, as it is the "Great Experiment" which subsiquently fails to deliver.

The assumption that the Enterprise is armed with lasers is because of the suggestion, in the cage episode, that they use one of the ship's lasers to blast a way into the mountain.

The laser could have been simply a point defence weapon and the ship carry phaser banks as main armament. As it appears to be an artillery sized weapon and not the size of the massive Phaser banks expected on the ship, this is most likely.

It is like saying that is a US Navy destroyer takes one of its 20mm. cannons ashore to blast at something point blank, then that is the only weapon type the ship is armed with.

As the Klingons are shown to use missiles (Drnes) in the episode "Errand Of Mercy" and maybe a few other unseen races supposedly out there, Pike's Eneterprise would have needed light laser type weapons to take them out.

The biggest argument in Trekdom is the SS Valiant and how such a Warp Drive vessel could travel to the edge of the Galaxy?? The simple fact is the Galaxy is not map flat but in 3D and no matter where you are in it, simple travelling a short distance up or down, against the gravitaional plane, will take you to the edge of it, just like heading up or down will take you straight out of our solar system.

The SS Valiant would only have to be swept less than 50 lightyears uup or down to reach the edge of the Galaxy.

If the writers are skillful enough they can keep the new model Enterprise in continuity with TOS without too much difficulty.

Hipefully they've learnt from the ENT experience.

 

[Beeblebrox]

Having recently rewatched a load of TOS I do distinctly remember one of the guys, during a red alert, clearly reporting that "midship phasers" were ready, right after reporting forward phasers as ready.  That puts me in mind of the CAI with the standard three phaser banks on the saucer and one 360 degree bank on the engineering section.  Frankly it doesn't make sense to have a starship with no rear-firing weapons. 

Given that the Enterprise was built sometime before 2245 I don't have a problem with minor differences between the XI ship and the TOS ship.  I'm just hoping they don't try to make it "super-duper" and add a wad of anachronistic technology like they did on the Enterprise series.  I will be very interested to see how they manage to make the military grey and powder blue color scheme of the pre-Kirk bridge look visually tantalising on the big screen.

[Beeblebrox]

The Defiant, however, is a different ship and maybe a different class. It is llost after being sent to investigate the previous loses of other vessels. I would think that Star Fleet would send a warship to investigate such events.

This isn't as outlandish idea as it may sound at first.  Even in today's wet Navy it is extremely common for ships of the same class to be outfitted differently from one another.  This can be due to special mission needs or even being behind or ahead of others of the ship class in the schedule rotation for refits.  It can also come about because of construction time tables--i.e. The 42 Type in the Royal Navy was composed of 14 ships constructed in 3 separate batches, each with differing engines, weapons/defense capabilities and even lengths.

[Czar Mohab]

  Even in today's wet Navy it is extremely common for ships of the same class to be outfitted differently from one another.

Just take a peek at the SSGN/SSBN in the US Navy (Ohio class).

Or 688/688i boats (Los Angeles class).

Its about fitting in new technologies and altering the ships for new missions as the battlefront constantly changes.

Personally, a new view of the big E is fine. The construction techniques kinda bug me, but its ok, too. Really. It shouldn't be about canon and non canon. Its about Trek, plain and simple. If/when JJ F*'s up, I'm pretty sure we'll let him have it.

Probably my favorite Sci-Fi movie of all time said it best, "Things change, they always do".

Czar "Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set" Mohab[/color]

[Pestalence_XC]

The TMP Enterprise had standard Warp Drive, though of a slightly improved type. Only the Excelsior is stated to have Trans Warp Drive, as it is the "Great Experiment" which subsiquently fails to deliver.

ST III the Excelcior had Transwarp engines, however, they did not fail, they were sabotaged by Scotty.

ST V and ST VI, if you look at the Warp Power console, you clearly see Trans Warp on the screen, the blue prints if you can magnify and clean up also show Trans Warp..

Trans Warp and the Bridge layout are the only 2 main objects of Refit.. that and rapid fire torpedo tubes (not as rapid as Excelcior's though).. those are the refits from Enterprise Class to Constitution Class.




Beeblebrox

That is what we are both saying... the ships were built for their duty cycle, not for different classes..

all hulls like the Enterprise TOS version is "Starship Class", but their duties may have been very different.. Defiant for the Romulan War, Enterprise for Exploration, Yorktown for First Contact, Lexington for Emergency Response, etc...

they were all Starship Class, but their "Normal" duties may have been quite different, requiring different refits of the hull..

Enterprise with More labs and shielding, thus sacrifacing extra weapons for space for labs and shield regen.

Lexington and Yorktown with more luxury in the quarters, more shielding, simple weapon compliment to accomodate refugees / ambassadors / delegations / meetings, etc..

Defiant with thicker hull, more weapons, fewer labs, sacrificing extra shielding for power for the weapons, a decent war machine..

so i think we are all saying the same thing, just in different ways..

Anyhow, I for one am going to see this movie and reserve bashing it until after it's premier (or trailers) that show a break in canon..

As for the ship itself, it is hard to be critical on it given that the ship is several years away from "The Cage".. anything in that time span could happen..

however, here are some Startrek.com out takes on the captains..

Reference TAS (The Animated Series)

Robert T. April
Played by James Doohan (voice)
Episode: ANI 22023 - The Counter-Clock Incident - 2245


A rugged, heroic-looking human male born in the year 2195, Captain Robert April was the first commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 when it was launched in 2245 for its initial five-year mission. He was succeeded by Captain Christopher Pike.
On stardate 6770.3 (2270), April was a senior Starfleet commodore on his way to the Babel planetoid where his formal retirement ceremonies were to be held, per Starfleet regulations mandating that human officers retire at the age of 75. Because of their already advanced ages, Commodore April and his wife Sarah weren't debilitated by the reversed time-flow of the parallel antimatter universe in which the Enterprise became temporarily trapped during the voyage to Babel; instead, they were returned to the prime of their lives. The heroic manner in which the Aprils took command of the starship to get the vessel safely home after all other personnel aboard had grown too young to handle the controls motivated Starfleet to review its mandatory retirement rules, and to keep Commodore April on as the Federation's ambassador-at-large. Because neither Robert nor Sarah April harbored any regrets over how they had spent their lives, they opted to use the Enterprise's transporter to return them to their normal ages following their return from the antimatter universe.


Reference TOS "The Cage", "The Menagerie"

Captain Christopher Pike
Played by Jeffrey Hunter
Episode: TOS 016 - The Menagerie, Part I- 2266


Best known as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701, just prior to James Kirk, Pike counted the top-secret first contact with the natives of Talos IV amid his long Starfleet career. Later in life, as a fleet captain aboard the training ship U.S.S. Republic, Pike suffered massive radiation damage after saving several cadets when a baffle plate ruptured in the ship's reactor. Thanks to the unorthodox methods of his former science officer, Spock, in 2266, Pike was returned to Talos IV to live out his life without the debilitating lifestyle he had endured, even with a self-propelled, life-support wheelchair.


Reference TOS the series

James Tiberious Kirk

James T. Kirk
Played by William Shatner
Episode: TOS 002 - Where No Man Has Gone Before


Starfleet Career Summary

2250 — As a first-year Academy student with ensign rank, assigned to U.S.S. Republic NCC-1371 (another Starship Class hull)

2254 — Upon graduation, promoted to lieutenant and posted to U.S.S. Farragut under Capt. Garrovick

2264 — Promoted to captain, in command of U.S.S. Enterprise for five-year mission

2266 — Exonerated in wrongful death charge of Ben Finney, first captain ever to stand trial

2269 — Returned from five-year mission; promoted to admiral in charge of fleet operations at Earth


OK so we have a long time before the Enterprise from movie XI to TOS to change the way she looks..

she was launched under Captain Robert April in 2245 and then Captain Kirk got her in 2264 That is 19 Years for refits and changes.. that is a long time...  So I won't be surprised if the Movie Enterprise looks different from the TOS Enterprise.

Hope this helps

[atheorhaven]

Czar "Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set" Mohab

Raised lettering... welded in place. 

[Age]

I don't remember that episode Pestalence but I could of seen it and I don't own all 3 seasons of ToS only TMP on VHS.I still don't have dvd player yet.This might help out Enterprise StarShip Class look at the Depiction.

[Vipre]

I've always seen the lack of rear arc firing in TOS as part of the E's character. Here was this powerful beauty but she wasn't some super-ship, she had a weak spot. Then comes the refit in TMP and that weakness is fixed and it feels like the character has grown, as if the ship gained experience as well during that five year mission and learned how important covering her pretty little rear was.

The reboot for Trek has pretty much already occurred. If you start with ST: Enterprise and then go straight to ST: XI then go hopefully into a spinoff series from the movie and just look at all three as separate entities from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Those four comprise "Trek 1.0", Enterprise and XI make up "Trek 2.0". Just ignore the Riker cameo in the last episode of ENT and it should work pretty well as it allows everyone to free themselves of the inconsistencies with ENT and previous shows.

IaMD's Defiant would be from "Trek 2.0" canon and not "1.0" and then all the RA issues vanish.

[Beeblebrox]

"Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set"

How else would the Irish builders know which starship to install the screen doors on?

[Panzergranate]

"Dropping out of Warp Captain and switching to Paddy Power!!"

[Beeblebrox]

"Dropping out of Warp Captain and switching to Paddy Power!!"

"Cap'n, the Gui--<hic>...the Guin--<hic>...the Guiness cryssssssals will never take the load!"

[Panzergranate]

There is no such thing as "Scynthahol" on an Irish crewed starship!!

"Space.... the final frontier.... these are the voyages of the Irish Starship "Paddyprise".... it's 5 year mission to explore strange new worlds, to meet new civilisations, to discover strange new bars, drink too much and create diplomatic problems for the Federation...."

They might have Father Dougal Maguire as the science officer.... 

[Beeblebrox]

There is no such thing as "Scynthahol" on an Irish crewed starship!!

Actually there is but it's used to make the toilets flush and drown teetotalers.

[Panzergranate]

All the helmets in the space suit locker have "This to the front" markings and arrows on them and the boots all have "L" and "R" on them.

Every deck has a rec room and bar, for emergencies.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Hey, did either of you see the episode where Scotty drunk an alien under the table? It was hilarious!! I believe it's in "By Any Other Name." Scotty goes through a century old, dusty bottle of scotch, and a drink that he can only describe as "green," before he passes out on the floor (after the alien is out cold).

I'm very optimistic about this next movie. TOS is awesome; I hope the prequel does the series justice. I like how the Enterprise is still the same classic ship, it isn't made too futuristic and fancy, just a little more realistic and grungy- like how you can see the panels that put it together. Great detail.

[Panzergranate]

The ship is only regressed slightly from the TOS episodes. The Enterpriise was already 20 years old by the time the TOS period is reached.

The saucer is still the same, if you look, and the aft secondary hull hangar half of the ship. Only the Warp Engines and Deflector/Sensor array are regressed.

If you check out some of the fandom stuff, the SFB F-CC "Endeavor Class" Command Cruiser run SCNN engines and this ship just happens to have exactly the same support pylons, I' noticed. I already have it in a book from last year as an artwork. Obviously J.J.Abram saw this and like it.

Now if I take the Endeavor model I downloaded a while back, take the SCNN engines off and attach these engines to the pylons instead, do the work around the front of the secondary hull, I could have the new old Enterprise.