Topic: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?  (Read 8206 times)

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Offline toasty0

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Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« on: June 21, 2008, 08:59:42 am »
Note: This editorial arrived in my inbox some weeks ago. I thought it interesting, and for the most part on point. Do you agree or disagree with the editor's points?

Each time Microsoft has come out with a new operating system that constituted a major change, some computer users have balked. I knew many who shunned Windows when it first appeared, preferring the simplicity and familiarity of MS-DOS. There were many Windows/Windows for Workgroups 3.11 fans who steadfastly resisted the lure of Windows 95 even though the latter was more stable and much more user-friendly. On the business side, many companies continued to run Windows NT Workstation on their desktops long after Windows 2000 came out, and a significant number are still running Windows 2000 now.

Windows XP represented the convergence of the consumer and business lines - sort of. Although XP still had its Home and Pro versions, the two were built on the same kernel (whereas the Windows 9.x family was completely different under the hood from Windows NT/2000). But many users on both sides of that fence complained mightily at being "forced" to moved to XP. Their main complaints? System requirements were too high, it wouldn't run well or at all on older or less powerful machines, the interface had changed too much, Explorer worked differently ... sounding familiar?

Those are the same gripes we've been hearing about Vista since its release. And they're the same gripes we've heard about every major new OS. But what's different this time is that more than a year after Vista's public debut, the furor hasn't died down. If anything, it has become set in stone for many folks. They're convinced that Vista is a "bad OS" and XP is wonderful (conveniently forgetting how awful they thought it was in the beginning).

Why is it that this time, folks aren't quieting down after they've had time to get used to the new operating system and discover its many cool features? As so many of my readers attest, Vista is not a bad OS. Many of us are happily running it with no stability or performance problems. Many of us have found that most (although admittedly not all) of the interface changes make our work lives easier - about to the same extent as XP's did. Yet there are still millions who swear they will never "downgrade" to Vista, there is a big movement afoot on the Internet to "save" XP from being put to death by Microsoft, and new articles appear in print and on the web every day, proclaiming that Vista is a failure. Vista appears to have become ensconced as the nation's favorite whipping boy, perhaps second only to the president of the United States.

Most likely there are a number of reasons for this. Like all new OS releases, Vista does indeed require more processing power and memory than its predecessors, as well as a modern video card if you want to enjoy its fancy Aero transparencies. But Vista had the misfortune to be released just as the U.S. economy was tightening, which made it more difficult for many people to afford the more powerful machines. Consequently, many of them tried upgrading computers that weren't made for it to Vista, and had bad experiences - hardware incompatibilities, performance problems, and so forth. This happened with XP too, but perhaps to a lesser extent.

Maybe more significantly, though, hardware vendors dropped the ball and let a lot of us down. They put computers on the market that were preloaded with Vista but which ran it abysmally. My Sony Vaio TX compact notebook is a case in point. Perhaps to save money, perhaps in a rush to get Vista-installed machines on the market, or perhaps for some other reason that escapes me, these computers hit the shelves and gave a lot of folks a terrible first impression of Vista. If my only exposure to Vista had been the little Sony as it came out of the box, I would have thought it was an awful OS, too.

As it turns out, much of the problem is the OEM configuration and you can tweak the settings to make these machines perform much better. Service Pack 1 also helps. But the average person who brings home a new computer and finds that it's slow as molasses doesn't want to have to figure out how to tune it up. He/she concludes that the system itself is a dud, that the new operating system is a dud, or both.

Another aspect of Vista's bad timing is that it came out shortly after a version of Linux that is actually somewhat user friendly finally appeared. Ubuntu made it possible for non-techie people to run Linux, and of course its cost (little or nothing) made it an attractive alternative to Vista - especially with the price for Ultimate edition coming in considerably higher than most people had ever paid for an operating system.

All the lousy experiences with Vista, along with the growing popularity of Ubuntu and the release of the new Leopard version of OS X, have led to a flood of bad publicity for the new Microsoft OS from both the general public and the tech press. And the latter have to bear much of the responsibility for egging all this Vista-hating on. Journalism in general has taken a turn toward over sensationalization and focus on doom and gloom, and tech industry reporters have followed the trend. Apparently adopting the philosophy that "good news is no news," many publications are much more apt to commission articles that uncover (or invent) supposed conspiracies or that proclaim someone as a villain or something as a failure than stories that take a more balanced approach.

That means those few of us who dispute the current almost religious belief that Vista is the spawn of Satan are dismissed as Microsoft apologists or at best, ridiculed as naïve and technically unknowledgeable, regardless of our credentials. Our friends on the anti-Vista side of the fence delight in harassing us any time we encounter a problem with our computers, no matter how minor, immediately blaming it on Vista. When they have a problem doing something with their XP (or Linux or Mac) computers, though, it's never the operating system's fault.

Vista bashing is so ingrained in the media now that the OS probably doesn't have a chance of being accepted by the average consumer. When they watch TV, they're inundated with commercials where the obnoxiously condescending Mac guy shakes his head at the travails of the poor PC man, who laments that Vista is "glitchy," unreliable, and oh so unsexy. It's funny; most of us say political candidates ought to stick to their own ideas, beliefs and records instead of running negative campaigns based on their opponents' real or imagined weaknesses. Shouldn't the same thing apply to company advertising? Apple's focus on PCs and Vista make you wonder: if their own product is so great, why aren't they talking about that instead of bashing their competitor all the time?

But exaggerated criticism from competitors' customers is to be expected. The really sad thing is the way Microsoft users have split into two opposing camps, with we who like both XP and Vista caught in the middle. Instead of acknowledging that both Microsoft operating systems are good products and each has its strengths and drawbacks, many XP users bash Vista just as fervently as the "Anybody But Microsoft" crowd (and in some cases, more so). It reminds me of the way a certain major U.S. political party has split itself in half during this year's presidential campaign.

But politics aside, I don't see how all this Vista-bashing serves any useful purpose. Unlike in an election, we don't have to narrow the choices down to one. It seems to me that you should use the operating system you like best, and not spend a lot of time and energy dwelling on what's wrong with the one(s) you don't like. We have more viable choices in that regard than we ever had before, so what's all the groaning and griping about?

Tell us what you think. Are you getting at least a little bit tired of hearing over and over that Vista is a dog? Do you wish Apple's commercials would tell you something - anything - about Apple's software instead of going on and on about Microsoft's? Do you ever find yourself having to defend your use of Vista to family and friends? Who do you think is most to blame for Vista's perceived unpopularity: Microsoft? Apple? Hardware vendors? The tech press? The mainstream media? XP die-hards? The alignment of the stars?
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 11:46:17 am »
He has some valid points, but I don't think he manages to bring it all together.  For one, Apple commercials do tout features of the mac system, they just do it in very simple, laymen's terms.

Secondly, it's not just users who are having issues with Vista, it's developers and IT professionals.  the IT guys in my company were pumped prior to Vista coming out, but these days none of them want to talk about it, or even acknowledge Vista.  Bad mojo when were beginning to phase in the implementation of Vista at the end of the month because our XP licensing runs out soon and no one in the company (of 22,000 people) is talking about it.  When I have managed to get them to talk, they only grumble about the problems they are having with it in comparison to XP.

Then there is the fact that developers are specifically avoiding developing software for vista because of the limitations and problems built in to Vista.

The writer is right- XP had issues in the beginning, which is why I didn't upgrade to it for some time (after SP2).  But keep this in mind- how many versions of windows did you see in the 6 years leading up to XP, and how many have we seen in the 6 since?  They've had quite some time to get this OS right, and they didn't deliver, more egg on the face.  Keep also in mind, that windows is the OS of choice for businesses everywhere, which businesses seem to have become more and more resentful of over the last several years.  Then after years and years of waiting for a new OS and when it finally arrives, businesses aren't able to implement it easily and efficiently on a widespread level, adding that the fact of lowered level of productivity because your workers need to adapt so much to a drastically different OS that they have been using for years.

Vista has potential, IMHO, but M$ has failed to capitalize on that potential in a major way, and though  XP had many similar issues, Vista takes those same kinds of issues and grossly exaggerates them compared to it's predecessor. 

I find irony, though, in the fact that Windows vista users are now finding it necessary to defend the use of the OS of choice to mac users, when 10 years ago, those roles were reversed 10 fold.  Strange.
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 11:54:54 am »
There are a lot of risk analysis and performance metrics that are performed before a large organization does a 7 figure rollout of workstations.  If Apple was outperforming Microsoft it would be on the desktops.

I've never worked at a company where we defaulted to any product without a complicated validation process. 

Sorry to be so terse, but I've been working outside.. so let's just say it's all about the best of breed vs. enterprise integration argument. 
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 12:33:24 pm »
I have never used Vista and unless required to at work don't plan to, but I have followed things and this one is rather unfair.

Quote
Maybe more significantly, though, hardware vendors dropped the ball and let a lot of us down. They put computers on the market that were preloaded with Vista but which ran it abysmally. My Sony Vaio TX compact notebook is a case in point. Perhaps to save money, perhaps in a rush to get Vista-installed machines on the market, or perhaps for some other reason that escapes me, these computers hit the shelves and gave a lot of folks a terrible first impression of Vista. If my only exposure to Vista had been the little Sony as it came out of the box, I would have thought it was an awful OS, too.


The Vista ready campaign was Microsofts.  The specifciations to qualify for the Vista Ready and Vista Capable logos were Microsofts if the machines are inadequate then it is Microsofts fault. 

Currently there is a class action lawsuit proceeding against Microsoft about the Vista Ready and Vista Capable logo programs.

Some internal Microsoft E-Mails were quoted in the early parts of the case:

Quote
"Even a piece of junk will qualify" for the "Windows Vista Capable" designation, wrote one employee in an e-mail that Tilden read out loud.

Another employee, Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt. ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine."

Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this. ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."


For myself Activation and DRM kept me away from XP and continue to keep me away from Vista.

A link to an article that lists Vistas  hardware requirements according to Microsoft.

Link to Microsofts current page for those specifications.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 12:47:52 pm by IKV Nemesis »
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 02:59:36 pm »
I liked DOS, and still think it was a better OS than Win 95.  I got used to win 95.

Never used Win 98 or NT

Win 2000 and Millennium had illegal features, suppressing Netscape and all.  Unfortunately, my Millennium machine made with cheap hardware, but the OS and software worked flawlessly.  I miss that machine.

I really looked forward to Win XP, but it didn't work as well as Millennium.  It was a virus magnet at first and taught me to fear Symantec and all its works.

Then came Win Vista.  I didn't believe it could be as bad as people said it was.  I didn't do much research, I just went out and bought a brand spanking new laptop, making sure it had 2 Gigs of memory.  What a mistake!  This is what I found out the hard way:

It takes an eternity to boot completely.  (XP SP3 now does the same.)

Vista machines do not recognize XP machines.

Software developers added their old software to a list of "incompatible" programs.  This goes hand in hand with a protocol to match the software key code against the developer's database.  One has to buy new versions of old software.

Anti-virus protocols are so intrusive that simple operations are time consuming and difficult.

A myriad of common functions on are either hidden or non-existant.


I couldn't configure my machine.  I couldn't wipe off the pre-packaged crapware.  I couldn't link to my old machine to download files.  It hung up loading old programs I bought specifically for it, and yes four hours is enough time to be certain a machine is completely locked up.  I couldn't use the machine for much more than internet browsing.  I could either sell my brand new machine or pay someone to wipe the HD and install XP.  After that much trouble, how could I possibly buy another Vista machine?

Is it any wonder Vista bashing is the new national pastime?
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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 03:46:08 pm »
  The main thing is the average user (like my father) should not have to go into the settings to get his Vista to run well. He bought a package with preinstalled software, it should run like a gizzelle.  Dual core system plenty of ram.  System isn't that great as is.  Not everyone has the time to find the settings that work right.  And an operating system that needs a service pack to run right is not a good operating system.  Just shows that when the first service pack comes out months after the release that it was rushed and incomplete.

That being said, well I will probably move up to Vista with my new machine (but will be alittle while), but I wouldn't be against a Mac (most of the professors at my University and many students use them now).  And the Linux box is being put togeather.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 06:01:59 pm »
Some of the features I do like about Vista:

Group Policy
The ability to detect other Vista machines on a SOHO.
Parental Controls
The ability to deploy at the Enterprise level without cloning
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Offline FCM_SFHQ_XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 06:29:31 pm »
Vista is trying to appeal to those who are not internet wise so to speak by giving you windows defender and some other stuff.
There is a trade off between having security or resource efficient. Microsoft chose to go with security, otherwise you will have people saying how Vista is not safe enough. Disable all the extra security stuff and system optimization stuff, then you will have a resource efficient machine that runs stable.
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 10:42:02 pm »
Agreed..

On my Vista system.. which is also my XP system...

I run Vista 64 bit on this machine.. I have had 0 problems video editing, playing games created or patched under DirectX 9.0 and higher, and newer software..

I have XP to dual boot for the older software.. VB6 programs and DirectX 8 and older software.

Most of my programs and games work just fine on Vista.. all I did was use TweakUAC to put UAC into quiet mode and put in the missing DirectX 8 files and registered them into my system.

All my games work except Dominion Wars and Hidden Evil, and I think with the new NVidia Drivers, I can get Hidden Evil and Dominion Wars working as well.

As for Multiplayer games.. games that are DirectX 7 and older may not be multiplayer capable given Direct Play is completely different. However I have found that programs companies that use "Coding Standards" will usually have 0 issues in Vista.. but companies that make up their own code as they go along, then Vista has a hard time operating them.

As mentioned above, someone stated that software companies are writing for XP and not Vista.. well XP is off the market at the end of this month.. Support for XP ends next June..

Vista 2.0 otherwise known as Windows 7, and upgraded version of Vista (built on Vista SP 1), is due out November 2009, Only notable changes I have seen in it is P2P connections are a bit better and are not as limited and the menu's are different.. however programs will still have to be standards compliant and coded in DirectX 9.0 or higher to be fully compatible.. that means my Dominion Wars did not work in Windows 7 Milestone 1 and neither did SFC II OP work correctly on the Dyna.. same exact behavior... When Milestone 2 comes out this Sept, I will test again to see if they are going to give Windows Future releases any better backwards compatibility for DirectX 8 and 7 programs and / or VB 6 support, but so far it does not look like it.

For VB 6 programs, I would recommend Vista users find DX7VB.dll and DX8VB.dll and put them in the System32 folder and then use Regserv32 to register them into the *.DLL cache and the system registry.. this will fix VB 6 programs on Vista.. it won't do anything else for older programs.

Also playing with Compatibility settings and device drivers will get a lot of programs working.. so far I have 90% of all my software working in Vista (and I have a lot of software) and this is using all the latest drivers.

I do want to state that Vista is not for a novice user.. you do have to have some experience with configuring an Operating System to get Vista running at peak performance...

I also recommend that if you have a Vista system and Old software.. make sure you get a copy of XP Pro before MS takes it off the shelves June 30 and dual boot your system.. New software coming out is going to be Vista, Win 2008, or Windows 7 only.. So if you want to play the new games coming out, you will need Vista or better.. for Old software, you will need XP..

this is why when I build a personal Computer or make a custom built machine for gaming.. I include a copy of both OS on board..

My system is running Vista 64 bit as the primary OS and Win XP Pro 32 bit as the secondary OS.. no problems on my system at all.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2008, 11:02:01 pm »
I go a step further. Instead of building a duel boot machine, I simply build a VPC for my specific needs. I'm building a multi-volumed, Enterprise SQL Server tonight.

Then, if needed, I can slap it onto my USB powered portable 250gig HDD, and fire it up on any machine with VPC 2007.

VPC is so useful that I deployed a full blown Exchange and Sharepoint Server setup with 100 clients in a environment that was completely locked down due to gaming security regulation using noting but VPCs...with the exception of some idiot forgeting to turn off port security on each of the client boxes all servers and clients worked as they expected.
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 10:02:17 am »
Have they fixed the networking problem, yet?  As late as February of this year, my brother was asking me how to get his Vista machine to consistantly recognise his XP machines.  He's an engineer, working on his PhD, and used to be a network administrator.  I just laughed.  If I could solve problems like that, I wouldn't be running XP.  If it were an easy problem to solve, MS wouldn't have been selling XP to this late date!
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 11:31:27 am »
How to set up home networks using Vista:

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/help/6ed24a90-6b57-4f0f-a3b3-e521ae945f331033.mspx


What XP needs to be recognized by Vista :

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922120

Release Date: November 21, 2006

The fix has been out for over a year and a half now.. surprised he didn't just google it. This was one of the first fixes MS made after the release of Vista. A simple web search of "Vista recognize XP" and the answer from 2006 pops up.

Relatively simple.. XP has to be patched.. The update is included in XP SP 3.

Then again Google may come up with weird results.. I hardly use it.. I use Microsoft Live Search.


« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 11:46:26 am by Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 12:25:29 pm »
My problem with Vista has been the price point... ie it was the cost of one of my graphics cards (I don't have a budget PC... but i still had a budget).  Plus... my modeling software don't like vista... i knew that from the beta.  Sorta throws a wrench in the whole deal when one of the reasons i built this computer for (modelin) i can't do because of the OS.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 03:20:05 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do.  I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine. 

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 03:40:20 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do. I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine.

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 04:17:31 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do.  I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine. 

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

Try any old machine. Linux, especially Fedora and its kin, thrive on older boxes. It's the modern, up-to-date hardware that throws Linux for a loop or two...
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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 08:13:21 pm »
What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

what if you are doing a series of upgrades on your machine, it will show that the imprint is wrong numeous times thus you are installing on multiple machines according to MS.  I also don't think that a hardware inprint of my machine is needed by anyone but me.  You also have to trust that they really do drop all data, or anything else they collect from your machine.  I have a code to enter that came with my OS, that is all that should be needed.  Seems people hate it if "big brother" of a government pokes its nose in your stuff, but heck it is alright for a private company that doesn't have half the controls on it to do it.

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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 08:17:30 pm »
What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?

I was searching for some information earlier today and found an old post where I stated my feeling about activation so rather rerite it I looked it up and quote it below:

Quote
For some of us it is an issue with allowing Microsoft control of our systems.  Micrososft decides whether I am entitled to install the software on my system after a given upgrade.  Microsoft decides if I can continue using it after they stop supporting it.  I have even had Windows tell me that I couldn't copy a disk that I had legal rights to copy.  Microsoft is a convicted abusive monopolist, I don't trust them to control my system.  They have yet to demonstrate honesty and corporate integrity.   

It is my system, provided I stay within the law I am the one who is entitled to control what I do with it.  Microsoft is not the legal authorities and should not be acting as if they are.

A EULA should not be allowed to take away rights that I have under the law.  A company should not be able to effectively rewrite the law to give them power and take it away from their customers.

Software is covered by copyright law and the companies that make software should not be able to add unilateral extensions to their rights under the copyright laws at the cost of removing my rights without my willing consent.  Activation does exactly that.
 

Another earlier posting by myself shows how Microsoft can and does abuse activation:

Quote
Recently my brother-in-law who sells computers had the same problem except Microsoft refused him the codes.  So he told them outright they could *&^% themselves and he would install his Redhat on all SIX systems.  At that point they gave him new codes for all 6 machines - just in case he needed them for the other 5 later.

What gives Microsoft the unilateral right to not only be your accuser but your judge and jury as well?  With activaiton they claim the right accuse you, judge you guilty and levy a penalty.  Do you really wish to see a company with those rights?  I for one do not.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 11:46:31 pm »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software. As such, the EULA clearly states that the intended and designed use is for 1 computer system. If you are going to install on multiple machines, then Microsoft EULA states that you will need to buy 1 copy for each machine, or call MS and buy individual keys for each machine ($35 each) or buy a Volume License Key for multiple machines. If you change more than 4 points of hardware within 120 days, then essentially you have built a new machine, and your EULA for the OS does not allow for that.. However after 120 days, the MS Activation Server dumps System ID keys about the registered computer's hardware and you can upgrade your system all you want or install to a different computer. Within 120 days, you can upgrade Video, Memory, add PCI and USB devices, and even replace the CPU, however replacement of the Main board constitutes replacing the whole computer due to different Bios and Northbridge and Southbridge.. and Activation will fail (essentially you built a different computer).. however after 120 days, it doesn't matter.

The same is true for Vista..

In other words, if you are planning an upgrade.. upgrade the machine before you install XP or after the 120 days are up and install / reactivate once all your upgrades are done.. plain and simple.

I do this all the time.. I have had 0 problems on activation .. also with MS working with me and without cost on system that have bad main boards found after activation.. I really can't complain.


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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 12:56:41 am »
I had problems with XP, and still do. I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine.

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?


Let's see, where to begin.  What if I don't have internet access, and don't have phone access either (you laugh, I've been there, so it's not that funny).

Next, try doing a LOT of changes on your computer, MS thinks that it's a new computer...and gives you a lot of hassles...I think that's BS.

If you don't register with them...you get locked out of your OWN computer after 30 days...that's BS.  They own the OS, not the Computer.

Next, they think that they can "rent" you an OS, I payed how much...and I'm not an owner...more BS.

Then there's the fact that I have to go in and change all the automatic settings (I hear it's next to impossible with Vista) when I intstall it in order to disable half the junk they have running.  That's BS.

and the list goes on and on.
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Offline FCM_SFHQ_XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 01:18:29 am »
Then there's the fact that I have to go in and change all the automatic settings (I hear it's next to impossible with Vista) when I intstall it in order to disable half the junk they have running. That's BS.

and the list goes on and on.
No actually it is NOT that hard, most people I can see saying that since you have to get used to the new interface and the changes in locations of things.
Disable the Services is simple enough, same as XP
MSConfig is still the same
Turning off Automatic Updates is different, but still easy enough
Windows defender is easily disabled once you explore a bit and see it
UAC is easy also to disable if you really need to.
I run Vista Ultimate on my laptop. I have Memory down to XP levels, boot up time at XP levels, and overall efficiency about the same as XP levels as well. From all my exploring of Vista, it is no different then any OS

As well, the internet is slowly progressing toward IPv6, so sooner or later XP will have to go as while it can support some IPv6, it wont stand up in the IPv6 world.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2008, 06:57:58 am »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software.


An interesting theory, one that software companies like to present as fact. 

Tell me when I go to the store and say "I would like to buy a copy of program X" why am I never corrected?  Why do I get a bill of sale for "program X"?  Why is the contract not presented to me before the "purchase" to read and sign? 

A judge has now ruled that software is sold not licensed. Link to full article (Link to earlier discussion thread where I mentioned this lawsuit)

Quote
"Not only has Autodesk failed to surmount the thorny issues of privity and mutual assent inherent in its contention that its License binds Mr. Vernor and his customers, it has ignored the terms of the License itself," said the ruling. "The Autodesk License is expressly 'nontransferable.' License: Grant of License. Autodesk does not explain how a nontransferable license can bind subsequent transferees."


Where is the mutual assent in the software "license"?  The buyer does not get to see it in advance.  The seller (software copyright holder not the retailer) is not even aware of the deal until after the software is registered or activated so there is no mutual assent. 

Quote
That case was the first to look at what is a licensing arrangement and what is a sale, Jones said. It found that in cases where a company expected the material to be returned – as it would if loaning a print to a cinema for display – that was a license arrangement. Where it never expected the material to be returned – such as when a studio allowed actress Vanessa Redgrave to have a print in return for money – that was a sale.


No arrangement made for the return of the software when the license expires means the software is sold. 

By what right does a software manufacturer claim the right to control my usage of that software so long as I stay within the law?

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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2008, 07:05:34 am »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software. As such, the EULA clearly states that the intended and designed use is for 1 computer system. If you are going to install on multiple machines, then Microsoft EULA states that you will need to buy 1 copy for each machine, or call MS and buy individual keys for each machine ($35 each) or buy a Volume License Key for multiple machines. If you change more than 4 points of hardware within 120 days, then essentially you have built a new machine, and your EULA for the OS does not allow for that.. However after 120 days, the MS Activation Server dumps System ID keys about the registered computer's hardware and you can upgrade your system all you want or install to a different computer. Within 120 days, you can upgrade Video, Memory, add PCI and USB devices, and even replace the CPU, however replacement of the Main board constitutes replacing the whole computer due to different Bios and Northbridge and Southbridge.. and Activation will fail (essentially you built a different computer).. however after 120 days, it doesn't matter.

The same is true for Vista..

In other words, if you are planning an upgrade.. upgrade the machine before you install XP or after the 120 days are up and install / reactivate once all your upgrades are done.. plain and simple.

I do this all the time.. I have had 0 problems on activation .. also with MS working with me and without cost on system that have bad main boards found after activation.. I really can't complain.




question I have is why should I have to wait 120 days to upgrade my machine?  If I can afford a new video card a month after I get my machine, why shouldn't I do it.  Then upgrade a bigger harddrive.  It is a limitation artificially made by MS for micro managing the systems.  I actually have more licenses for XP then I am using right now, so it doesn't bother me but why should I have to wait to do upgrades just doesn;t make sense to me.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2008, 07:56:34 am »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software. As such, the EULA clearly states that the intended and designed use is for 1 computer system. If you are going to install on multiple machines, then Microsoft EULA states that you will need to buy 1 copy for each machine, or call MS and buy individual keys for each machine ($35 each) or buy a Volume License Key for multiple machines. If you change more than 4 points of hardware within 120 days, then essentially you have built a new machine, and your EULA for the OS does not allow for that.. However after 120 days, the MS Activation Server dumps System ID keys about the registered computer's hardware and you can upgrade your system all you want or install to a different computer. Within 120 days, you can upgrade Video, Memory, add PCI and USB devices, and even replace the CPU, however replacement of the Main board constitutes replacing the whole computer due to different Bios and Northbridge and Southbridge.. and Activation will fail (essentially you built a different computer).. however after 120 days, it doesn't matter.

The same is true for Vista..

In other words, if you are planning an upgrade.. upgrade the machine before you install XP or after the 120 days are up and install / reactivate once all your upgrades are done.. plain and simple.

I do this all the time.. I have had 0 problems on activation .. also with MS working with me and without cost on system that have bad main boards found after activation.. I really can't complain.




question I have is why should I have to wait 120 days to upgrade my machine?  If I can afford a new video card a month after I get my machine, why shouldn't I do it.  Then upgrade a bigger harddrive.  It is a limitation artificially made by MS for micro managing the systems.  I actually have more licenses for XP then I am using right now, so it doesn't bother me but why should I have to wait to do upgrades just doesn;t make sense to me.

You don't have to. No law says you have to. Just keep in mind that you agreed to. 
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2008, 08:00:55 am »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software.


An interesting theory, one that software companies like to present as fact. 

Tell me when I go to the store and say "I would like to buy a copy of program X" why am I never corrected?  Why do I get a bill of sale for "program X"?  Why is the contract not presented to me before the "purchase" to read and sign? 

A judge has now ruled that software is sold not licensed. Link to full article (Link to earlier discussion thread where I mentioned this lawsuit)

Quote
"Not only has Autodesk failed to surmount the thorny issues of privity and mutual assent inherent in its contention that its License binds Mr. Vernor and his customers, it has ignored the terms of the License itself," said the ruling. "The Autodesk License is expressly 'nontransferable.' License: Grant of License. Autodesk does not explain how a nontransferable license can bind subsequent transferees."


Where is the mutual assent in the software "license"?  The buyer does not get to see it in advance.  The seller (software copyright holder not the retailer) is not even aware of the deal until after the software is registered or activated so there is no mutual assent. 

Quote
That case was the first to look at what is a licensing arrangement and what is a sale, Jones said. It found that in cases where a company expected the material to be returned – as it would if loaning a print to a cinema for display – that was a license arrangement. Where it never expected the material to be returned – such as when a studio allowed actress Vanessa Redgrave to have a print in return for money – that was a sale.


No arrangement made for the return of the software when the license expires means the software is sold. 

By what right does a software manufacturer claim the right to control my usage of that software so long as I stay within the law?




Nice ruling. What I'd like to see is the EULA for that product.
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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2008, 08:19:27 am »
If I can call MS and get a key for $35 so I can run its OS on a new computer, why do I have to pay around $200 when I buy one in the store if I am only buying the license for the program and not the software?
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2008, 08:32:12 am »
Nice ruling. What I'd like to see is the EULA for that product.


Link to EULA


Quote
You don't have to. No law says you have to. Just keep in mind that you agreed to.


Is it a valid agreement though? 

Consider the software EULA.  Does the software author make a deal with the distributor authorizing them to sign further licenses? If not then what right does the retailer have to sell licenses?  If yes then does the distributor do the same in regards to the retailer?  If there is no such chain of agreements authorizing the retailer to sell licenses then there is no sale of license. 

Does a EULA as currently presented in retail software fullfill the requirements of a contract?

Quote
1) an agreement, and 2) consideration.


Quote
The agreement component involves offers, counter-offers, and eventually what contract law calls the "meeting of the minds."


It does not appear to me that it does as there is no "agreement" under this definition as there is no discussion of the terms  with anyone authorized to change them.  There is no presentation of the terms until after the payment (consideration) is made and typically no refund after the terms are known.

You may find this old lawsuit interesting.  In 1908 Macy's was charged with violating the license in a book they sold by selling it for under $1. 

From the judgement in that case:

Quote
The owner of the copyright in this case did sell copies of the book in quantities and at a price satisfactory to it. It has exercised the right to vend. What the complainant contends for embraces not only the right to sell the copies, but to qualify the title of a future purchaser by the reservation of the right to have the remedies of the statute against an infringer because of the printed notice of its purpose so to do unless the purchaser sells at a price fixed in the notice. To add to the right of exclusive sale the authority to control all future retail sales, by a notice that such sales must be made at a fixed sum, would give a right not included in the terms of the statute, and, in our view, extend its operation, by construction, beyond its meaning, when interpreted with a view to ascertaining the legislative intent in its enactment.



Is the EULA substantially different than the book case cited above?  I think not, in each case a copyright holder is attempting to limit the ownership rights of those who made a legitimate purchase.  I think that unless laws are changed ultimately software licensing will be divided into 2 categories:

1/ Actual licensing between corporations.

2/ Retail sales like other copyrighted works.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2008, 08:43:52 am »
I forgot to mention one of my other favorite features of Vista is Readyboost.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2008, 09:30:06 am »
EULAs are not binding agreements for several reasons.  First for it was not made in the presence of one or more witnesses, second a lawyer was not present to judicate and give legal adherence and or advice to the signees, and finally, especially in cases of Windows being pre-installed on computers, the person buying the computer made no agreement to adhere to anything, except normally a bill of sale from the computer maker (who are the ones, if anyone, with an agreement with MS), infering that the sale of the computer is also a sale of any material on said computer.

As far as I know, MS has never ever successfully prosecuted a soul of a single personage (as opposed to business) for an infraction of their so called EULA in a LEGAL court (not civil, that's legal) proceding.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2008, 10:09:38 am »
So you are saying that you could write a program, copywrite the material in the program, put it on the market for sale, and 1 person buys a copy and puts it into a torrent and 100,000 other people DL it for free and you get the proceeds from the sale of 1 copy?

And you are fine with this?

EULA is available for people to look up, it is in the paperwork of the computer to read before you even turn the thing on.. failure to do so is your own fault.. If you don't agree with the EULA, then return the computer / software ..

My prebuilt system had EULA in the box on paper.. so stating that the end user is not aware of EULA when they buy a prebuilt computer is pure weapons grade bologna-um.

the EULA is set up to where you have to agree to accept it by either turning the computer on, or clicking I agree in the Licensing box. If you feel you need a lawyer present, they by all means hire one to go over the EULA before you click I agree.. It is at your expense, not the software manufacturers.

You see all your claims about EULA not being legal nor binding is weapons grade bologna-um.. Software companies have not yet started to truly enforce EULA of their products (EULA is written by lawyers for the respective companies in accordance to the laws of the state the software manufacturer is in. Usage of the software is agreeing to be held accountable by the laws of the state that the software was created), however with more and more theft, I am sure we will see quite a few court cases in favor of the software developer based solely on the EULA.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2008, 03:23:32 pm »
I've had zero trouble from Vista for the year that we've had  the new laptop.... however friends with X(tra) P(roblems) always have tales of woe. One just hates XP with a passion.

Like I said, I've had zero problems with Vista.... so far. ::)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2008, 07:42:01 pm »
So you are saying that you could write a program, copywrite the material in the program, put it on the market for sale, and 1 person buys a copy and puts it into a torrent and 100,000 other people DL it for free and you get the proceeds from the sale of 1 copy?

And you are fine with this?

Why are you bringing software piracy into this?  You're such a drama queen, citing the most extreme example possible and appealing to people's pride.  We are talking about individuals who purchased software being able to have full use of their hardware free of install constraints or individuals selling a single install disk of software that they legally purchased to another individual.  We are not talking about mass distribution of software by illegal means.

No one's talking about "violating" an EULA for piracy, but merely for having full use of what they bought.


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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2008, 08:24:46 pm »
That is exactly what I am talking about..

MS installs to 1 machine.. you can upgrade that machine with Video, CPU, RAM, Sound, PS TV Tuner.. etc.. however you change the Mainboard, which had a different CMOS and BIOS.. then essentially you have built a new computer.. EULA does not allow for you to install the OS to that computer, only your previous one (given that the OS was installed to the previous system first)..

You are suppose to, by EULA, contact MS and buy an new product key for the new system.

Now paying $159.99 for the OS of XP does not mean you bought the software.. it means you paid for the shipping of the software, the packaging, the book, the case and the CD the OS was burned on to along with their pretty holographic gold foil ... Plus the licensing key to unlock the software. the XP sticker for your computer and most importantly the convenience of the OS being in the store (Store markup)..

You can always DL the OS directly from Microsoft after paying the $35 for the license key from their MSDN Library.. they will provide you a direct DL URL...

The OS itself belongs to MS and they have the right to recall it or discontinue it at their leisure.. Now big companies that have the OS contracted with MS would have legal recourse if the OS stopped working tomorrow.. but the End Users do not have Contracts with MS and MS is protected by EULA.

Just like Linux.. the IP holder can turn it off tomorrow and no one can say a thing without having a contract stating that the OS will operate for X amount of years.

The EULA is to get people to purchase the software more than 1 time if they have multiple computers.. or if you do not want to buy multiple copies, then they want you to call in and buy a VLK to cover all of your systems or purchase multiple keys if you have 3 or 4 computers..

It is all sales and marketing of their software.. not your software. Just like people are suppose to have the right of jacking rent from $500 a month to $1000 a month on an apartment just because they can get more money.. the Software companies have the right to adjust their marketing so that they make money and one marketing method is the EULA drawn up by their lawyers.

Otherwise.. there would be nothing but free software on the Net and stores will close down and so will software companies because EULA means nothing....


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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2008, 08:52:41 pm »
Pestalence_XC if EULAs are ruled invalid as I believe they should be then (like books before them) they revert to being covered by standard copyright law.  Under that law one may use the software on 1 machine at a time without being judged to have violated copyright.  Under that law if I take the program off one machine and install it on another I am not in violation of copyright and am not a pirate. 

When the book publishers placed a EULA in the books they claimed it had the force of law but judges said otherwise.  In a number of cases so far various EULA terms have been struck down but no one has yet fought over the validity of the EULA as a whole so it has yet to be ruled either way. 

I do not believe the software industry assertion that the EULA as used and presented constitutes a valid contract licensing my use.  I believe and expect eventually to (bar changes in the law) have the courts agree that I purchase copies of software just as I purchase copies of other copyrighted materials and have ALL the rights that copyright law bestows upon me as a purchaser of a product that is under copyright.  I don't believe that software companies can create law by slapping a EULA on something and claiming that it is legally binding and that they have the right to strip from me rights that I have under the law.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2008, 03:30:19 am »
Actually, in some areas EULA's really aren't worth the time companies spend typing them.  All an EULA is, is fear mongering.  The reason companies don't try to enforce them is because they know they can't, EULA's don't have any legal strength.

The businesses know that, this is why when I do a business contract between my business and another (for example, let's use Microsoft since they seem to be at the center of this, and even THEY still do business how I'm about to describe) I can't just slap down a piece of paper and say...by coming in this room you automatically agree to what I've put in this contract, if you disagree you can hand me back all the stuff I already have given you and I may or may not pay back the money.  NO, instead they take the contract, have their people look at it, send me back a counter proposal, and then I look at it with my people.  Then we get together, hammer it out, and then there is a LEGAL precedence where we have to have witnesses and an authorizing Legal authority to authorize it in order to make the contract valid.

Handshake agreements are normally not held up in court.  It's the actual paper and the signatures that matter.
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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2008, 05:01:14 am »
I can buy and sell other copyrighted material. Books, CDs, Baseball cards, etc... I should be able to buy (or sell) a used copy of 3D Studio Max. Autodesk says that I can't. That they deserve to get paid twice for the same set of disks, manuals, and all of the other stuff that the original purchase price pays for.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2008, 07:19:47 am »
<snip>  (Worded poorly, but can't think of another way to write it.)

And heck if you are true that we don't buy the software, then the torrents being put out should be no problem since it was never sold it can't be stollen.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 08:19:09 am by marstone »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2008, 07:33:14 am »
:police: A couple of people are coming very close to personal attacks.  :police:

There is no need for that.  Attack the message not the messenger.  Be polite and diplomatic.  It really isn't that hard.


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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2008, 07:47:05 am »
:police: A couple of people are coming very close to personal attacks.  :police:

There is no need for that.  Attack the message not the messenger.  Be polite and diplomatic.  It really isn't that hard.


The responsibility falls on you to control your passions, not for the board members to endure it.

I am not trying to attack Pestilence.  He is one against alot so I give him lots of credit.  I think he does a great job of taking the other side of this discussion, he really should get paid for it.  He is good at it.  If my last post is taken wrongly, I am sorry.  (hmmm, no little icon to end with I can see that will fit)  Did a snip on my last post as it was poorly worded, but ATM I am at a lose of how to word it better.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 08:20:28 am by marstone »
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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2008, 07:52:14 am »
I can buy and sell other copyrighted material. Books, CDs, Baseball cards, etc... I should be able to buy (or sell) a used copy of 3D Studio Max. Autodesk says that I can't. That they deserve to get paid twice for the same set of disks, manuals, and all of the other stuff that the original purchase price pays for.

Also don't forget even if you are just paying for a license,you are passing your license to someone else so only one copy is being used on one machine.  Back in the olden days ('80's) it was put out that the copywrite on software was to be considered the same as a book copywrite.  Anything a person could do with a book you could do with software.  Of course that was back in the time you didn't install programs and ran them from disks, so when you passed a disk to a friend to play the game, you didn't have it on a harddrive.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2008, 08:35:28 am »
A lot of the time that I post, I play devil's advocate.. not stating my personal opinion very much.. I just try to see things from a different point of view.

I like to flair the conversation so I can get to the nitty gritty of what people think..

I continually reformulate my ideas based on logical thought and reasoning..

so if anyone takes offense to what I post. I apologize.


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Offline FA Frey XC

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2008, 08:45:00 am »
Couple of things.

1.) You can reinstall Windows XP on any other computer, as long as you've removed it from the computer it was previously installed on.

(I've reinstalled the Windows XP - no Service pack 1, STRAIGHT Windows XP so many times over the last several years that I think I've lost count. Microsoft has never given me any issues, even though when I call them to activate and they ask me "Is this the first time you've installed the software" and I answer "Nope." )

2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens.

3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering.

IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux?

No.

Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid $59 for it?

Of course not.

EULA's are a for of protection for Intellectual Property rights, and I'll remind everyone what's on the back of the US Dollar?

LET THE BUYER BEWARE.

It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to

A.) Understand what he is purchasing

B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price

PERIOD.

I laugh at the concept of it being Microsoft's fault that DELL, HP and GATEWAY installed MASS PRODUCTION OS images that had AMD drivers loaded for INTEL based chipsets.

You know what I find in this thread? I find more evidence of society's trend to put the responsibility for their actions everywhere else but with THEMSELVES.

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2008, 08:52:19 am »
A lot of the time that I post, I play devil's advocate.. not stating my personal opinion very much.. I just try to see things from a different point of view.

I like to flair the conversation so I can get to the nitty gritty of what people think..

I continually reformulate my ideas based on logical thought and reasoning..

so if anyone takes offense to what I post. I apologize.




Naw, think the post was about me, I had alittle in there about you being a mouth piece for MS (as stated poorly worded).

Seems the issue at hand here is MS has us over a barrel, as the OS they put out is the defacto standard and if you want to play with the world you need to run it (ATM).  So you have to agree to the silly standards they dictate or your game choice is severlly limited.   Software from back when I really was looking into it was copywrited so it was to run on only one machine at a time.  You were suppose to be able to take it with you to another machine and use it.  

It really isn't up to the company putting it out to dictate what a single machine is, I change a motherboard and it is a new machine.  Sort of like I change the motor in my car and it is a new car, have to pay the dealer again for it so I can drive it (or maybe the state so my license is still valid since it is now a new car).

I am also leary of letting a company take a snapshot of my machine (do you really know what is being taken down to fingerprint your machine, MS has been in trouble on this lines before).  I understand trying to protect your rights and collect money that is rightly due, but having to buy a new license just becouse I modify my machine is wrong.  It still falls under 'only on one machine', so they were paid for it already.  I shouldn't have to pay again.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2008, 08:53:18 am »
Couple of things.

1.) You can reinstall Windows XP on any other computer, as long as you've removed it from the computer it was previously installed on.

(I've reinstalled the Windows XP - no Service pack 1, STRAIGHT Windows XP so many times over the last several years that I think I've lost count. Microsoft has never given me any issues, even though when I call them to activate and they ask me "Is this the first time you've installed the software" and I answer "Nope." )

2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens.

3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering.

IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux?

No.

Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid $59 for it?

Of course not.

EULA's are a for of protection for Intellectual Property rights, and I'll remind everyone what's on the back of the US Dollar?

LET THE BUYER BEWARE.

It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to

A.) Understand what he is purchasing

B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price

PERIOD.

I laugh at the concept of it being Microsoft's fault that DELL, HP and GATEWAY installed MASS PRODUCTION OS images that had AMD drivers loaded for INTEL based chipsets.

You know what I find in this thread? I find more evidence of society's trend to put the responsibility for their actions everywhere else but with THEMSELVES.

Regards,

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Offline marstone

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2008, 08:56:48 am »
 hmm, hesitate to point out.  No need to reverse engineer Linux (it is open source and you get the source code for it).  But understand the point being made.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2008, 10:45:14 am »
2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens.

3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering.


I don't think so.  I believe the ruling was that the actual sale did not qualify as a license but did qualify as a sale.  The example the judge used of a movie licensed to a theater for a set time after which it was returned compared to the copy sold to the actress with no plan to return it.  Software is treated by the companies as a sale since there are no limits on the time or requirements for a return when the license expires.

Also as I stated earlier I don't believe that there is a chain of agreements from the software publisher all the way to a retailer that authorizes the retailer to sell licenses.  What grants that retailer the rights to sell licenses?  If nothing then he could not have sold a license and must have sold the copy.

IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux?

No.

Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid $59 for it?


Companies routinely buy competitors products and reverse engineer them.  Why should software be different? 

They do have to beware of patent violation, trademarks and copyrights but may still reverse engineer and use what they learn otherwise.

Consider the BIOS.  It was reverse engineered from the original PC which allowed the whole clone market.  If it had been illegal would not IBM long ago have stepped in and shut down the BIOS makers and cloners? 


It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to

A.) Understand what he is purchasing

B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price

PERIOD.


Of course the seller has limits too on what they may sell and what they may claim to be selling.  If a seller makes claims that are not backed up by the law then they can either end up in trouble or have the buyer safely ignore them.

As an example.  Network Associates in New York had this ruling against them for trying to block publishing of independent testing and reviews of their software.

Quote
The court further enjoined the company from including with its products "any language restricting the right to publish the results of testing and review" unless the company first gives the Attorney General 30 days notice. The court also required Network Associates to provide it with evidence of its sales, so that the court can set penalties and costs.

In striking down the above clause as "deceptive" and "not merely unenforceable, but warrant[ing] an injunction and the imposition of civil sanctions" under New York's Executive Law and General Business Law, the court noted that on at least one occasion, Network Associates had used the clause to quell a critical review. That review, published in 1999 by Network World, had compared Network Associates "Gauntlet" firewall software unfavorably to five other firewall products. Spitzer's suit described how Network Associates had demanded a retraction of the negative review, citing the language of the now-prohibited clause.


They made the claim and the courts have ruled it illegal and ordered it removed from the EULA.  How many other things in Eula's that claim to remove rights from you are similarly illegal and just wait for someone to fight them before they are struck down?  Perhaps the entire EULA concept as already happened for books?  I think so.

In looking things up for this thread I came across something very interesting that relates to Eula's.  Namely "misuse of copyright".  Apparently if you misuse your copyright you can lose the right to enforce that copyright until you have corrected the damage of the misuse. 

Link to full article quoted below
Quote
Reynolds asserted that even though it had infringed Lasercomb’s copyright, it should not be found liable because Lasercomb had misused its copyright in the license agreement for the software, and the court agreed.


You will note that the defendant stipulated that it had infringed copyright but the judge agreed they were not liable due to the misuse of copyright in the EULA.  So if a EULA forbids you to do things that they may not legally forbid then any copyright violation you may be guilty of in relation to that product cannot be punished.   

As I understand this should I run product X on two machines while having bought one copy if the product maker had terms in the license forbidding me to do something legal (such as sell my copy or move it to a new machine) he cannot enforce his copyright against me.

How could Microsoft (for example) fix the damage done by their claims that you can neither sell your copy of Windows nor move it to another machine?  How about the damage to all those who have had to waste their time trying to get their machine reactivated due to Microsofts unilateral disabling of it during activation?  Not to mention those who were intimidated into buying new "legal" copies when they had no need to?

Link to text of U.S. copyright law.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2008, 11:06:20 am »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2008, 11:13:59 am »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?

Because the EULA as a concept has not yet been fought in court, just individual clauses.

Until it is fully fought and invalidated it is a valuable weapon that companies can use to intimidate others into compliance with their will.   Then of course they will be claiming that they thought it was valid.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2008, 11:21:26 am »
Naw, think the post was about me, I had alittle in there about you being a mouth piece for MS (as stated poorly worded).

Certain people were going too close to the edge.  I would rather warn them back than have to take them to a higher level should they stray over the edge.   

People often post without realizing how it will seem from the other side or a neutral perspective.  I understand this and try when practical to make sure know how it looks before it becomes a problem.

I really don't like seeing people lose access even temporarily so I try to help them avoid it when I can.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2008, 12:33:59 pm »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?

Because the EULA as a concept has not yet been fought in court, just individual clauses.

Until it is fully fought and invalidated it is a valuable weapon that companies can use to intimidate others into compliance with their will.   Then of course they will be claiming that they thought it was valid.

So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2008, 12:42:16 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?

No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point. 
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2008, 12:46:42 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?

No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point. 

So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs? 
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2008, 12:55:11 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?


No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point. 


So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs? 


A group would have to show harm or act as a friend of the court in defense of the public good.  There's just not a lot of incentive to go to the expense of something like that.

I'd be more interested (if someone has access to LexusNexus) in hearing about any cases where an EULA was upheld. 

Edit:  It appears the courts are upholding the EULA when reverse engineering is at play, but not when the company is attempting to control the use of the product (Also remember reverse engineering is a criminal act under the DMCA, so that may explain the stance).


http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/05/2031212
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5628
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Sept_6/ai_n15344471
http://blog.internetcases.com/category/contracts/

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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2008, 08:59:13 pm »
So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs? 

To the best of my knowledge there has not yet been a challenge of the EULA as a whole.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2008, 09:44:58 pm »
So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs? 

To the best of my knowledge there has not yet been a challenge of the EULA as a whole.

Ok. Thannks.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2008, 10:43:47 am »
To challenge the EULA as a whole in court you would need a reason that was affected by the whole concept not just by one subsection.  So far most of the cases that I am aware of have been started by the company suing over the violation of one element of the EULA and therefore that was the only issue before the court.  In the remaining cases the subsection was being challenged by the end user.

It would be difficult to come up with a case to challenge the EULA as a whole.  Anyone who did come up with such a case also needs the money and motivation to fight the case.  So far that hasn't happened.  At some point I hope it does and settles the issue one way or the other.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2008, 03:11:37 pm »
To challenge the EULA as a whole in court you would need a reason that was affected by the whole concept not just by one subsection.  So far most of the cases that I am aware of have been started by the company suing over the violation of one element of the EULA and therefore that was the only issue before the court.  In the remaining cases the subsection was being challenged by the end user.

It would be difficult to come up with a case to challenge the EULA as a whole.  Anyone who did come up with such a case also needs the money and motivation to fight the case.  So far that hasn't happened.  At some point I hope it does and settles the issue one way or the other.

Well it could be done as a class action law-suit.  Then the many who are under the class-action can have different parts of the EULA, as it all stems from the EULA it should be linked togeather into one case.

But then it s*cks that everything has to come down to a courtcase to settle things in the world now adays.
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2008, 03:48:06 pm »
Bet none of you know that the licencing clauses and wording, used on software products.... is lifted from Lodge Spark Plugs (1900's to date).

I have some 1950's Lodge Spark Plugs, which always come wrapped in printed wax paper, and remind the "user" of the spark plug that it remains the property of Lodge Spark Plugs limited, that the "user" is liicenced to use the spark plug, ec.

Strange how the software companies copied existing 1900's legal stuff. ;D

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2008, 04:15:33 pm »
It seems Mac has been doing it already and don't get Pestalence on the defensive as I see he has already been doing that.

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2008, 04:36:27 pm »
I'm not on the Defensive..

I understand Microsoft's purpose behind Vista, I don't agree on how they marketed it or explained it to the populace.

I use both XP and Vista for different purposes.. I usually stay in the Vista environment unless I need to use Visual C++ 6.0 or 3D Studio Max or play SFC or Dominion Wars..

Other than that I stay in Vista for all my other software.. XP has it's uses with older software, and Vista has many benefits on some older software as well as compatibility with new software coming out that may not be XP compliant.

Except for the current AOTK4 server that I have been playing on, I am in Vista 95% of the time.

I do see how Microsoft dropped the ball. I do not agree with them removing older DirectX compatibility from Vista or the way that they are changing the networking, I do understand why they are doing it.

Microsoft went about it in the wrong manner IMHO.. However I have researched to find out why and what intent Microsoft had, and I am satisfied with what their intentions were for.. I am displeased with their methods and implementation.

I do like playing Devil's Advocate when I see a group bashing from one side, I will usually post the opposite point of view or reasoning, even if I don't agree with it.. just so I can see the root of why people are miffed or upset so that I can see if my own feelings and personal judgments are on keel with others and if not, look into the differences a bit more deeply by research so I can get a better understanding.

 
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2008, 04:43:04 pm »
Quote
I do see how Microsoft dropped the ball. I do not agree with them removing older DirectX compatibility from Vista or the way that they are changing the networking, I do understand why they are doing it.
Well with the networking, they are just slowly removing support for IPv4 making room instead for IPv6 networking.
While of course leaving normal IPv4 compatability in place since much of the network still uses IPv4, MS is going to phase IPv4 to basic network connectivity as IPv6 takes over, they to me, have just done it too soon. IPv4 addresses are going to sooner or later run out, and I also am probably going to go nuts when I have to start setting static IPv6 addresses too.. :P
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2008, 08:39:25 pm »
Quote
I do see how Microsoft dropped the ball. I do not agree with them removing older DirectX compatibility from Vista or the way that they are changing the networking, I do understand why they are doing it.
Well with the networking, they are just slowly removing support for IPv4 making room instead for IPv6 networking.
While of course leaving normal IPv4 compatability in place since much of the network still uses IPv4, MS is going to phase IPv4 to basic network connectivity as IPv6 takes over, they to me, have just done it too soon. IPv4 addresses are going to sooner or later run out, and I also am probably going to go nuts when I have to start setting static IPv6 addresses too.. :P

I could blame for MS for moving too quickly on implementing IPv6 if it weren't for the fact that IPv6 was supposed to be the IP standard some years ago.

[smile]That was until it was discovered that Linux Networking Engineers could not do base 8 math.[/smile]
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2008, 03:42:10 pm »
That's probally because Octal (base 8 maths) has been obstelete in computing since the mid-1980's!! ;D

Put it this way.... they don't even bother to teach it at colleges and universities these days.

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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2008, 05:23:22 pm »
That's probally because Octal (base 8 maths) has been obstelete in computing since the mid-1980's!! ;D

Put it this way.... they don't even bother to teach it at colleges and universities these days.



That explains a thing or eight...
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Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2008, 01:43:59 pm »
I can remember doing it at college..... along with Thermionoc Valves, etc.

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