### Topic: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?  (Read 8207 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

#### Pestalence_XC

• "The Terminator"
• Commander
• Posts: 2636
• Gender:
• "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2008, 08:35:28 am »
A lot of the time that I post, I play devil's advocate.. not stating my personal opinion very much.. I just try to see things from a different point of view.

I like to flair the conversation so I can get to the nitty gritty of what people think..

I continually reformulate my ideas based on logical thought and reasoning..

so if anyone takes offense to what I post. I apologize.

"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team

#### FA Frey XC

• Site Owner
• Captain
• Posts: 5688
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2008, 08:45:00 am »
Couple of things.

1.) You can reinstall Windows XP on any other computer, as long as you've removed it from the computer it was previously installed on.

(I've reinstalled the Windows XP - no Service pack 1, STRAIGHT Windows XP so many times over the last several years that I think I've lost count. Microsoft has never given me any issues, even though when I call them to activate and they ask me "Is this the first time you've installed the software" and I answer "Nope." )

2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens.

3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering.

IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux?

No.

Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid $59 for it? Of course not. EULA's are a for of protection for Intellectual Property rights, and I'll remind everyone what's on the back of the US Dollar? LET THE BUYER BEWARE. It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to A.) Understand what he is purchasing B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price PERIOD. I laugh at the concept of it being Microsoft's fault that DELL, HP and GATEWAY installed MASS PRODUCTION OS images that had AMD drivers loaded for INTEL based chipsets. You know what I find in this thread? I find more evidence of society's trend to put the responsibility for their actions everywhere else but with THEMSELVES. Regards, Vice President of Technology, Dynaverse Gaming Association Owner, CEO XenoCorp Inc. #### marstone • Because I can • Commander • Posts: 3014 • Gender: • G.E.C.K. - The best kit to have ##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime? « Reply #42 on: June 25, 2008, 08:52:19 am » A lot of the time that I post, I play devil's advocate.. not stating my personal opinion very much.. I just try to see things from a different point of view. I like to flair the conversation so I can get to the nitty gritty of what people think.. I continually reformulate my ideas based on logical thought and reasoning.. so if anyone takes offense to what I post. I apologize. Naw, think the post was about me, I had alittle in there about you being a mouth piece for MS (as stated poorly worded). Seems the issue at hand here is MS has us over a barrel, as the OS they put out is the defacto standard and if you want to play with the world you need to run it (ATM). So you have to agree to the silly standards they dictate or your game choice is severlly limited. Software from back when I really was looking into it was copywrited so it was to run on only one machine at a time. You were suppose to be able to take it with you to another machine and use it. It really isn't up to the company putting it out to dictate what a single machine is, I change a motherboard and it is a new machine. Sort of like I change the motor in my car and it is a new car, have to pay the dealer again for it so I can drive it (or maybe the state so my license is still valid since it is now a new car). I am also leary of letting a company take a snapshot of my machine (do you really know what is being taken down to fingerprint your machine, MS has been in trouble on this lines before). I understand trying to protect your rights and collect money that is rightly due, but having to buy a new license just becouse I modify my machine is wrong. It still falls under 'only on one machine', so they were paid for it already. I shouldn't have to pay again. The smell of printer ink in the morning, Tis the smell of programming. #### toasty0 • Application.Quit(); • Captain • Posts: 8045 • Gender: ##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime? « Reply #43 on: June 25, 2008, 08:53:18 am » Couple of things. 1.) You can reinstall Windows XP on any other computer, as long as you've removed it from the computer it was previously installed on. (I've reinstalled the Windows XP - no Service pack 1, STRAIGHT Windows XP so many times over the last several years that I think I've lost count. Microsoft has never given me any issues, even though when I call them to activate and they ask me "Is this the first time you've installed the software" and I answer "Nope." ) 2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens. 3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering. IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux? No. Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid$59 for it?

Of course not.

EULA's are a for of protection for Intellectual Property rights, and I'll remind everyone what's on the back of the US Dollar?

It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to

A.) Understand what he is purchasing

B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price

PERIOD.

I laugh at the concept of it being Microsoft's fault that DELL, HP and GATEWAY installed MASS PRODUCTION OS images that had AMD drivers loaded for INTEL based chipsets.

You know what I find in this thread? I find more evidence of society's trend to put the responsibility for their actions everywhere else but with THEMSELVES.

Regards,

If Toasty0 could reverse engineer Linux, Toasty0 instead make own OS, find dumb IBM exec, Toasty0 become rich. Very very rich.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### marstone

• Because I can
• Commander
• Posts: 3014
• Gender:
• G.E.C.K. - The best kit to have
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2008, 08:56:48 am »
hmm, hesitate to point out.  No need to reverse engineer Linux (it is open source and you get the source code for it).  But understand the point being made.
The smell of printer ink in the morning,
Tis the smell of programming.

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2008, 10:45:14 am »
2.) The EULA for Autodesk was poorly worded, and hence why it was struck in a Court of Law. It happens.

3.) Pestalence is correct in that the EULA, just as is *any* other software game, application, or program, is a license to USE the software. The point of a EULA is to prevent intellectual property theft by reverse engineering.

I don't think so.  I believe the ruling was that the actual sale did not qualify as a license but did qualify as a sale.  The example the judge used of a movie licensed to a theater for a set time after which it was returned compared to the copy sold to the actress with no plan to return it.  Software is treated by the companies as a sale since there are no limits on the time or requirements for a return when the license expires.

Also as I stated earlier I don't believe that there is a chain of agreements from the software publisher all the way to a retailer that authorizes the retailer to sell licenses.  What grants that retailer the rights to sell licenses?  If nothing then he could not have sold a license and must have sold the copy.

IE: ToastyO buys a copy of Linux. ToastyO then takes that copy of Linux and reverse engineers it. He then markets that as his own product. What has he done? Has he done the work of those who created LInux?

No.

Should he be entitled to do whatever he wants with the software just because he paid \$59 for it?

Companies routinely buy competitors products and reverse engineer them.  Why should software be different?

They do have to beware of patent violation, trademarks and copyrights but may still reverse engineer and use what they learn otherwise.

Consider the BIOS.  It was reverse engineered from the original PC which allowed the whole clone market.  If it had been illegal would not IBM long ago have stepped in and shut down the BIOS makers and cloners?

It has ALWAYS been the consumers responsibility to

A.) Understand what he is purchasing

B.) Ensure what he is purchasing has what he wants for the price

PERIOD.

Of course the seller has limits too on what they may sell and what they may claim to be selling.  If a seller makes claims that are not backed up by the law then they can either end up in trouble or have the buyer safely ignore them.

As an example.  Network Associates in New York had this ruling against them for trying to block publishing of independent testing and reviews of their software.

Quote
The court further enjoined the company from including with its products "any language restricting the right to publish the results of testing and review" unless the company first gives the Attorney General 30 days notice. The court also required Network Associates to provide it with evidence of its sales, so that the court can set penalties and costs.

In striking down the above clause as "deceptive" and "not merely unenforceable, but warrant[ing] an injunction and the imposition of civil sanctions" under New York's Executive Law and General Business Law, the court noted that on at least one occasion, Network Associates had used the clause to quell a critical review. That review, published in 1999 by Network World, had compared Network Associates "Gauntlet" firewall software unfavorably to five other firewall products. Spitzer's suit described how Network Associates had demanded a retraction of the negative review, citing the language of the now-prohibited clause.

They made the claim and the courts have ruled it illegal and ordered it removed from the EULA.  How many other things in Eula's that claim to remove rights from you are similarly illegal and just wait for someone to fight them before they are struck down?  Perhaps the entire EULA concept as already happened for books?  I think so.

In looking things up for this thread I came across something very interesting that relates to Eula's.  Namely "misuse of copyright".  Apparently if you misuse your copyright you can lose the right to enforce that copyright until you have corrected the damage of the misuse.

Quote
Reynolds asserted that even though it had infringed Lasercomb’s copyright, it should not be found liable because Lasercomb had misused its copyright in the license agreement for the software, and the court agreed.

You will note that the defendant stipulated that it had infringed copyright but the judge agreed they were not liable due to the misuse of copyright in the EULA.  So if a EULA forbids you to do things that they may not legally forbid then any copyright violation you may be guilty of in relation to that product cannot be punished.

As I understand this should I run product X on two machines while having bought one copy if the product maker had terms in the license forbidding me to do something legal (such as sell my copy or move it to a new machine) he cannot enforce his copyright against me.

How could Microsoft (for example) fix the damage done by their claims that you can neither sell your copy of Windows nor move it to another machine?  How about the damage to all those who have had to waste their time trying to get their machine reactivated due to Microsofts unilateral disabling of it during activation?  Not to mention those who were intimidated into buying new "legal" copies when they had no need to?

Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

• Application.Quit();
• Captain
• Posts: 8045
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2008, 11:06:20 am »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2008, 11:13:59 am »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?

Because the EULA as a concept has not yet been fought in court, just individual clauses.

Until it is fully fought and invalidated it is a valuable weapon that companies can use to intimidate others into compliance with their will.   Then of course they will be claiming that they thought it was valid.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2008, 11:21:26 am »
Naw, think the post was about me, I had alittle in there about you being a mouth piece for MS (as stated poorly worded).

Certain people were going too close to the edge.  I would rather warn them back than have to take them to a higher level should they stray over the edge.

People often post without realizing how it will seem from the other side or a neutral perspective.  I understand this and try when practical to make sure know how it looks before it becomes a problem.

I really don't like seeing people lose access even temporarily so I try to help them avoid it when I can.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

• Application.Quit();
• Captain
• Posts: 8045
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2008, 12:33:59 pm »
And yet, after these isolated rulings, EULAs continue to florish. Why is that?

Because the EULA as a concept has not yet been fought in court, just individual clauses.

Until it is fully fought and invalidated it is a valuable weapon that companies can use to intimidate others into compliance with their will.   Then of course they will be claiming that they thought it was valid.

So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2008, 12:42:16 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?

No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

• Application.Quit();
• Captain
• Posts: 8045
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2008, 12:46:42 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?

No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point.

So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs?
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### Dracho

• Global Moderator
• Posts: 18289
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2008, 12:55:11 pm »
So, really, what courts as a rule have done is not invalidate EULAs, but just poorly constructed portions of EULAs? Can I assume from that lack of decision that on the whole the courts are not against EULAs?

No.  Judges rule on what is brought before them.  When a challenge is made to a subsection of the EULA that is what is ruled on.  Even if the judge could clearly tell that the WHOLE EULA was invalid that claim is not before him and he cannot rule on that issue.  So far I know of no cases where the EULA as a whole or the concept of a EULA has been challenged, merely sections.  Therefore there has been no ruling on the validity of the concept of EULAs to this point that I am aware of.

I am aware of several sections of EULAs being ruled against but none ruled for at this point.

So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs?

A group would have to show harm or act as a friend of the court in defense of the public good.  There's just not a lot of incentive to go to the expense of something like that.

I'd be more interested (if someone has access to LexusNexus) in hearing about any cases where an EULA was upheld.

Edit:  It appears the courts are upholding the EULA when reverse engineering is at play, but not when the company is attempting to control the use of the product (Also remember reverse engineering is a criminal act under the DMCA, so that may explain the stance).

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/05/2031212
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5628
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Sept_6/ai_n15344471
http://blog.internetcases.com/category/contracts/

The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2008, 08:59:13 pm »
So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs?

To the best of my knowledge there has not yet been a challenge of the EULA as a whole.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

• Application.Quit();
• Captain
• Posts: 8045
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2008, 09:44:58 pm »
So, even though there have been challenges to sections of various EULAs, no one or group has sought a wholesale challenge to the concept of EULAs?

To the best of my knowledge there has not yet been a challenge of the EULA as a whole.

Ok. Thannks.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### Nemesis

• Captain Kayn
• Global Moderator
• Commodore
• Posts: 12504
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2008, 10:43:47 am »
To challenge the EULA as a whole in court you would need a reason that was affected by the whole concept not just by one subsection.  So far most of the cases that I am aware of have been started by the company suing over the violation of one element of the EULA and therefore that was the only issue before the court.  In the remaining cases the subsection was being challenged by the end user.

It would be difficult to come up with a case to challenge the EULA as a whole.  Anyone who did come up with such a case also needs the money and motivation to fight the case.  So far that hasn't happened.  At some point I hope it does and settles the issue one way or the other.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### marstone

• Because I can
• Commander
• Posts: 3014
• Gender:
• G.E.C.K. - The best kit to have
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2008, 03:11:37 pm »
To challenge the EULA as a whole in court you would need a reason that was affected by the whole concept not just by one subsection.  So far most of the cases that I am aware of have been started by the company suing over the violation of one element of the EULA and therefore that was the only issue before the court.  In the remaining cases the subsection was being challenged by the end user.

It would be difficult to come up with a case to challenge the EULA as a whole.  Anyone who did come up with such a case also needs the money and motivation to fight the case.  So far that hasn't happened.  At some point I hope it does and settles the issue one way or the other.

Well it could be done as a class action law-suit.  Then the many who are under the class-action can have different parts of the EULA, as it all stems from the EULA it should be linked togeather into one case.

But then it s*cks that everything has to come down to a courtcase to settle things in the world now adays.
The smell of printer ink in the morning,
Tis the smell of programming.

#### Panzergranate

• Commander
• Posts: 2847
• Gender:
• Aw!! Da big nasty Klingon L7 killed da kitty kat!!
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2008, 03:48:06 pm »
Bet none of you know that the licencing clauses and wording, used on software products.... is lifted from Lodge Spark Plugs (1900's to date).

I have some 1950's Lodge Spark Plugs, which always come wrapped in printed wax paper, and remind the "user" of the spark plug that it remains the property of Lodge Spark Plugs limited, that the "user" is liicenced to use the spark plug, ec.

Strange how the software companies copied existing 1900's legal stuff.

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

#### Age

• D.Net VIP
• Commander
• Posts: 2687
• Gender:
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2008, 04:15:33 pm »
It seems Mac has been doing it already and don't get Pestalence on the defensive as I see he has already been doing that.

#### Pestalence_XC

• "The Terminator"
• Commander
• Posts: 2636
• Gender:
• "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
##### Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2008, 04:36:27 pm »
I'm not on the Defensive..

I understand Microsoft's purpose behind Vista, I don't agree on how they marketed it or explained it to the populace.

I use both XP and Vista for different purposes.. I usually stay in the Vista environment unless I need to use Visual C++ 6.0 or 3D Studio Max or play SFC or Dominion Wars..

Other than that I stay in Vista for all my other software.. XP has it's uses with older software, and Vista has many benefits on some older software as well as compatibility with new software coming out that may not be XP compliant.

Except for the current AOTK4 server that I have been playing on, I am in Vista 95% of the time.

I do see how Microsoft dropped the ball. I do not agree with them removing older DirectX compatibility from Vista or the way that they are changing the networking, I do understand why they are doing it.

Microsoft went about it in the wrong manner IMHO.. However I have researched to find out why and what intent Microsoft had, and I am satisfied with what their intentions were for.. I am displeased with their methods and implementation.

I do like playing Devil's Advocate when I see a group bashing from one side, I will usually post the opposite point of view or reasoning, even if I don't agree with it.. just so I can see the root of why people are miffed or upset so that I can see if my own feelings and personal judgments are on keel with others and if not, look into the differences a bit more deeply by research so I can get a better understanding.

"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team