Topic: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?  (Read 8205 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline toasty0

  • Application.Quit();
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 8045
  • Gender: Male
Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« on: June 21, 2008, 08:59:42 am »
Note: This editorial arrived in my inbox some weeks ago. I thought it interesting, and for the most part on point. Do you agree or disagree with the editor's points?

Each time Microsoft has come out with a new operating system that constituted a major change, some computer users have balked. I knew many who shunned Windows when it first appeared, preferring the simplicity and familiarity of MS-DOS. There were many Windows/Windows for Workgroups 3.11 fans who steadfastly resisted the lure of Windows 95 even though the latter was more stable and much more user-friendly. On the business side, many companies continued to run Windows NT Workstation on their desktops long after Windows 2000 came out, and a significant number are still running Windows 2000 now.

Windows XP represented the convergence of the consumer and business lines - sort of. Although XP still had its Home and Pro versions, the two were built on the same kernel (whereas the Windows 9.x family was completely different under the hood from Windows NT/2000). But many users on both sides of that fence complained mightily at being "forced" to moved to XP. Their main complaints? System requirements were too high, it wouldn't run well or at all on older or less powerful machines, the interface had changed too much, Explorer worked differently ... sounding familiar?

Those are the same gripes we've been hearing about Vista since its release. And they're the same gripes we've heard about every major new OS. But what's different this time is that more than a year after Vista's public debut, the furor hasn't died down. If anything, it has become set in stone for many folks. They're convinced that Vista is a "bad OS" and XP is wonderful (conveniently forgetting how awful they thought it was in the beginning).

Why is it that this time, folks aren't quieting down after they've had time to get used to the new operating system and discover its many cool features? As so many of my readers attest, Vista is not a bad OS. Many of us are happily running it with no stability or performance problems. Many of us have found that most (although admittedly not all) of the interface changes make our work lives easier - about to the same extent as XP's did. Yet there are still millions who swear they will never "downgrade" to Vista, there is a big movement afoot on the Internet to "save" XP from being put to death by Microsoft, and new articles appear in print and on the web every day, proclaiming that Vista is a failure. Vista appears to have become ensconced as the nation's favorite whipping boy, perhaps second only to the president of the United States.

Most likely there are a number of reasons for this. Like all new OS releases, Vista does indeed require more processing power and memory than its predecessors, as well as a modern video card if you want to enjoy its fancy Aero transparencies. But Vista had the misfortune to be released just as the U.S. economy was tightening, which made it more difficult for many people to afford the more powerful machines. Consequently, many of them tried upgrading computers that weren't made for it to Vista, and had bad experiences - hardware incompatibilities, performance problems, and so forth. This happened with XP too, but perhaps to a lesser extent.

Maybe more significantly, though, hardware vendors dropped the ball and let a lot of us down. They put computers on the market that were preloaded with Vista but which ran it abysmally. My Sony Vaio TX compact notebook is a case in point. Perhaps to save money, perhaps in a rush to get Vista-installed machines on the market, or perhaps for some other reason that escapes me, these computers hit the shelves and gave a lot of folks a terrible first impression of Vista. If my only exposure to Vista had been the little Sony as it came out of the box, I would have thought it was an awful OS, too.

As it turns out, much of the problem is the OEM configuration and you can tweak the settings to make these machines perform much better. Service Pack 1 also helps. But the average person who brings home a new computer and finds that it's slow as molasses doesn't want to have to figure out how to tune it up. He/she concludes that the system itself is a dud, that the new operating system is a dud, or both.

Another aspect of Vista's bad timing is that it came out shortly after a version of Linux that is actually somewhat user friendly finally appeared. Ubuntu made it possible for non-techie people to run Linux, and of course its cost (little or nothing) made it an attractive alternative to Vista - especially with the price for Ultimate edition coming in considerably higher than most people had ever paid for an operating system.

All the lousy experiences with Vista, along with the growing popularity of Ubuntu and the release of the new Leopard version of OS X, have led to a flood of bad publicity for the new Microsoft OS from both the general public and the tech press. And the latter have to bear much of the responsibility for egging all this Vista-hating on. Journalism in general has taken a turn toward over sensationalization and focus on doom and gloom, and tech industry reporters have followed the trend. Apparently adopting the philosophy that "good news is no news," many publications are much more apt to commission articles that uncover (or invent) supposed conspiracies or that proclaim someone as a villain or something as a failure than stories that take a more balanced approach.

That means those few of us who dispute the current almost religious belief that Vista is the spawn of Satan are dismissed as Microsoft apologists or at best, ridiculed as naïve and technically unknowledgeable, regardless of our credentials. Our friends on the anti-Vista side of the fence delight in harassing us any time we encounter a problem with our computers, no matter how minor, immediately blaming it on Vista. When they have a problem doing something with their XP (or Linux or Mac) computers, though, it's never the operating system's fault.

Vista bashing is so ingrained in the media now that the OS probably doesn't have a chance of being accepted by the average consumer. When they watch TV, they're inundated with commercials where the obnoxiously condescending Mac guy shakes his head at the travails of the poor PC man, who laments that Vista is "glitchy," unreliable, and oh so unsexy. It's funny; most of us say political candidates ought to stick to their own ideas, beliefs and records instead of running negative campaigns based on their opponents' real or imagined weaknesses. Shouldn't the same thing apply to company advertising? Apple's focus on PCs and Vista make you wonder: if their own product is so great, why aren't they talking about that instead of bashing their competitor all the time?

But exaggerated criticism from competitors' customers is to be expected. The really sad thing is the way Microsoft users have split into two opposing camps, with we who like both XP and Vista caught in the middle. Instead of acknowledging that both Microsoft operating systems are good products and each has its strengths and drawbacks, many XP users bash Vista just as fervently as the "Anybody But Microsoft" crowd (and in some cases, more so). It reminds me of the way a certain major U.S. political party has split itself in half during this year's presidential campaign.

But politics aside, I don't see how all this Vista-bashing serves any useful purpose. Unlike in an election, we don't have to narrow the choices down to one. It seems to me that you should use the operating system you like best, and not spend a lot of time and energy dwelling on what's wrong with the one(s) you don't like. We have more viable choices in that regard than we ever had before, so what's all the groaning and griping about?

Tell us what you think. Are you getting at least a little bit tired of hearing over and over that Vista is a dog? Do you wish Apple's commercials would tell you something - anything - about Apple's software instead of going on and on about Microsoft's? Do you ever find yourself having to defend your use of Vista to family and friends? Who do you think is most to blame for Vista's perceived unpopularity: Microsoft? Apple? Hardware vendors? The tech press? The mainstream media? XP die-hards? The alignment of the stars?
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline Clark Kent

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6070
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2008, 11:46:17 am »
He has some valid points, but I don't think he manages to bring it all together.  For one, Apple commercials do tout features of the mac system, they just do it in very simple, laymen's terms.

Secondly, it's not just users who are having issues with Vista, it's developers and IT professionals.  the IT guys in my company were pumped prior to Vista coming out, but these days none of them want to talk about it, or even acknowledge Vista.  Bad mojo when were beginning to phase in the implementation of Vista at the end of the month because our XP licensing runs out soon and no one in the company (of 22,000 people) is talking about it.  When I have managed to get them to talk, they only grumble about the problems they are having with it in comparison to XP.

Then there is the fact that developers are specifically avoiding developing software for vista because of the limitations and problems built in to Vista.

The writer is right- XP had issues in the beginning, which is why I didn't upgrade to it for some time (after SP2).  But keep this in mind- how many versions of windows did you see in the 6 years leading up to XP, and how many have we seen in the 6 since?  They've had quite some time to get this OS right, and they didn't deliver, more egg on the face.  Keep also in mind, that windows is the OS of choice for businesses everywhere, which businesses seem to have become more and more resentful of over the last several years.  Then after years and years of waiting for a new OS and when it finally arrives, businesses aren't able to implement it easily and efficiently on a widespread level, adding that the fact of lowered level of productivity because your workers need to adapt so much to a drastically different OS that they have been using for years.

Vista has potential, IMHO, but M$ has failed to capitalize on that potential in a major way, and though  XP had many similar issues, Vista takes those same kinds of issues and grossly exaggerates them compared to it's predecessor. 

I find irony, though, in the fact that Windows vista users are now finding it necessary to defend the use of the OS of choice to mac users, when 10 years ago, those roles were reversed 10 fold.  Strange.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline Dracho

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18289
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2008, 11:54:54 am »
There are a lot of risk analysis and performance metrics that are performed before a large organization does a 7 figure rollout of workstations.  If Apple was outperforming Microsoft it would be on the desktops.

I've never worked at a company where we defaulted to any product without a complicated validation process. 

Sorry to be so terse, but I've been working outside.. so let's just say it's all about the best of breed vs. enterprise integration argument. 
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2008, 12:33:24 pm »
I have never used Vista and unless required to at work don't plan to, but I have followed things and this one is rather unfair.

Quote
Maybe more significantly, though, hardware vendors dropped the ball and let a lot of us down. They put computers on the market that were preloaded with Vista but which ran it abysmally. My Sony Vaio TX compact notebook is a case in point. Perhaps to save money, perhaps in a rush to get Vista-installed machines on the market, or perhaps for some other reason that escapes me, these computers hit the shelves and gave a lot of folks a terrible first impression of Vista. If my only exposure to Vista had been the little Sony as it came out of the box, I would have thought it was an awful OS, too.


The Vista ready campaign was Microsofts.  The specifciations to qualify for the Vista Ready and Vista Capable logos were Microsofts if the machines are inadequate then it is Microsofts fault. 

Currently there is a class action lawsuit proceeding against Microsoft about the Vista Ready and Vista Capable logo programs.

Some internal Microsoft E-Mails were quoted in the early parts of the case:

Quote
"Even a piece of junk will qualify" for the "Windows Vista Capable" designation, wrote one employee in an e-mail that Tilden read out loud.

Another employee, Mike Nash, currently a corporate vice president for Windows product management, wrote in an e-mail, "I PERSONALLY got burnt. ... Are we seeing this from a lot of customers? ... I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine."

Jim Allchin, then the co-president of Microsoft's Platforms and Services Division, wrote in another e-mail, "We really botched this. ... You guys have to do a better job with our customers."


For myself Activation and DRM kept me away from XP and continue to keep me away from Vista.

A link to an article that lists Vistas  hardware requirements according to Microsoft.

Link to Microsofts current page for those specifications.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 12:47:52 pm by IKV Nemesis »
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Tulwar

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2008, 02:59:36 pm »
I liked DOS, and still think it was a better OS than Win 95.  I got used to win 95.

Never used Win 98 or NT

Win 2000 and Millennium had illegal features, suppressing Netscape and all.  Unfortunately, my Millennium machine made with cheap hardware, but the OS and software worked flawlessly.  I miss that machine.

I really looked forward to Win XP, but it didn't work as well as Millennium.  It was a virus magnet at first and taught me to fear Symantec and all its works.

Then came Win Vista.  I didn't believe it could be as bad as people said it was.  I didn't do much research, I just went out and bought a brand spanking new laptop, making sure it had 2 Gigs of memory.  What a mistake!  This is what I found out the hard way:

It takes an eternity to boot completely.  (XP SP3 now does the same.)

Vista machines do not recognize XP machines.

Software developers added their old software to a list of "incompatible" programs.  This goes hand in hand with a protocol to match the software key code against the developer's database.  One has to buy new versions of old software.

Anti-virus protocols are so intrusive that simple operations are time consuming and difficult.

A myriad of common functions on are either hidden or non-existant.


I couldn't configure my machine.  I couldn't wipe off the pre-packaged crapware.  I couldn't link to my old machine to download files.  It hung up loading old programs I bought specifically for it, and yes four hours is enough time to be certain a machine is completely locked up.  I couldn't use the machine for much more than internet browsing.  I could either sell my brand new machine or pay someone to wipe the HD and install XP.  After that much trouble, how could I possibly buy another Vista machine?

Is it any wonder Vista bashing is the new national pastime?
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline marstone

  • Because I can
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3014
  • Gender: Male
  • G.E.C.K. - The best kit to have
    • Ramblings on the Q3, blog
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 03:46:08 pm »
  The main thing is the average user (like my father) should not have to go into the settings to get his Vista to run well. He bought a package with preinstalled software, it should run like a gizzelle.  Dual core system plenty of ram.  System isn't that great as is.  Not everyone has the time to find the settings that work right.  And an operating system that needs a service pack to run right is not a good operating system.  Just shows that when the first service pack comes out months after the release that it was rushed and incomplete.

That being said, well I will probably move up to Vista with my new machine (but will be alittle while), but I wouldn't be against a Mac (most of the professors at my University and many students use them now).  And the Linux box is being put togeather.
The smell of printer ink in the morning,
Tis the smell of programming.

Offline toasty0

  • Application.Quit();
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 8045
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 06:01:59 pm »
Some of the features I do like about Vista:

Group Policy
The ability to detect other Vista machines on a SOHO.
Parental Controls
The ability to deploy at the Enterprise level without cloning
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline FCM_SFHQ_XC

  • There is life outside of Windows..
  • Administrator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2267
  • Gender: Male
  • Starbase Atlantis [X-refit]
    • 9th Fleet
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 06:29:31 pm »
Vista is trying to appeal to those who are not internet wise so to speak by giving you windows defender and some other stuff.
There is a trade off between having security or resource efficient. Microsoft chose to go with security, otherwise you will have people saying how Vista is not safe enough. Disable all the extra security stuff and system optimization stuff, then you will have a resource efficient machine that runs stable.
Starfleet Headquarters out.

Fleet Commodore, XenoCorp, ISC Fleet.

Offline Pestalence_XC

  • "The Terminator"
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Gender: Male
  • "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2008, 10:42:02 pm »
Agreed..

On my Vista system.. which is also my XP system...

I run Vista 64 bit on this machine.. I have had 0 problems video editing, playing games created or patched under DirectX 9.0 and higher, and newer software..

I have XP to dual boot for the older software.. VB6 programs and DirectX 8 and older software.

Most of my programs and games work just fine on Vista.. all I did was use TweakUAC to put UAC into quiet mode and put in the missing DirectX 8 files and registered them into my system.

All my games work except Dominion Wars and Hidden Evil, and I think with the new NVidia Drivers, I can get Hidden Evil and Dominion Wars working as well.

As for Multiplayer games.. games that are DirectX 7 and older may not be multiplayer capable given Direct Play is completely different. However I have found that programs companies that use "Coding Standards" will usually have 0 issues in Vista.. but companies that make up their own code as they go along, then Vista has a hard time operating them.

As mentioned above, someone stated that software companies are writing for XP and not Vista.. well XP is off the market at the end of this month.. Support for XP ends next June..

Vista 2.0 otherwise known as Windows 7, and upgraded version of Vista (built on Vista SP 1), is due out November 2009, Only notable changes I have seen in it is P2P connections are a bit better and are not as limited and the menu's are different.. however programs will still have to be standards compliant and coded in DirectX 9.0 or higher to be fully compatible.. that means my Dominion Wars did not work in Windows 7 Milestone 1 and neither did SFC II OP work correctly on the Dyna.. same exact behavior... When Milestone 2 comes out this Sept, I will test again to see if they are going to give Windows Future releases any better backwards compatibility for DirectX 8 and 7 programs and / or VB 6 support, but so far it does not look like it.

For VB 6 programs, I would recommend Vista users find DX7VB.dll and DX8VB.dll and put them in the System32 folder and then use Regserv32 to register them into the *.DLL cache and the system registry.. this will fix VB 6 programs on Vista.. it won't do anything else for older programs.

Also playing with Compatibility settings and device drivers will get a lot of programs working.. so far I have 90% of all my software working in Vista (and I have a lot of software) and this is using all the latest drivers.

I do want to state that Vista is not for a novice user.. you do have to have some experience with configuring an Operating System to get Vista running at peak performance...

I also recommend that if you have a Vista system and Old software.. make sure you get a copy of XP Pro before MS takes it off the shelves June 30 and dual boot your system.. New software coming out is going to be Vista, Win 2008, or Windows 7 only.. So if you want to play the new games coming out, you will need Vista or better.. for Old software, you will need XP..

this is why when I build a personal Computer or make a custom built machine for gaming.. I include a copy of both OS on board..

My system is running Vista 64 bit as the primary OS and Win XP Pro 32 bit as the secondary OS.. no problems on my system at all.
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team

Offline toasty0

  • Application.Quit();
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 8045
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2008, 11:02:01 pm »
I go a step further. Instead of building a duel boot machine, I simply build a VPC for my specific needs. I'm building a multi-volumed, Enterprise SQL Server tonight.

Then, if needed, I can slap it onto my USB powered portable 250gig HDD, and fire it up on any machine with VPC 2007.

VPC is so useful that I deployed a full blown Exchange and Sharepoint Server setup with 100 clients in a environment that was completely locked down due to gaming security regulation using noting but VPCs...with the exception of some idiot forgeting to turn off port security on each of the client boxes all servers and clients worked as they expected.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline Tulwar

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1328
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 10:02:17 am »
Have they fixed the networking problem, yet?  As late as February of this year, my brother was asking me how to get his Vista machine to consistantly recognise his XP machines.  He's an engineer, working on his PhD, and used to be a network administrator.  I just laughed.  If I could solve problems like that, I wouldn't be running XP.  If it were an easy problem to solve, MS wouldn't have been selling XP to this late date!
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Pestalence_XC

  • "The Terminator"
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Gender: Male
  • "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 11:31:27 am »
How to set up home networks using Vista:

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/help/6ed24a90-6b57-4f0f-a3b3-e521ae945f331033.mspx


What XP needs to be recognized by Vista :

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922120

Release Date: November 21, 2006

The fix has been out for over a year and a half now.. surprised he didn't just google it. This was one of the first fixes MS made after the release of Vista. A simple web search of "Vista recognize XP" and the answer from 2006 pops up.

Relatively simple.. XP has to be patched.. The update is included in XP SP 3.

Then again Google may come up with weird results.. I hardly use it.. I use Microsoft Live Search.


« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 11:46:26 am by Pestalence_XC »
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team

Offline Tus-XC

  • Capt
  • XenoCorp® Member
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 12:25:29 pm »
My problem with Vista has been the price point... ie it was the cost of one of my graphics cards (I don't have a budget PC... but i still had a budget).  Plus... my modeling software don't like vista... i knew that from the beta.  Sorta throws a wrench in the whole deal when one of the reasons i built this computer for (modelin) i can't do because of the OS.
Rob

"Elige Sortem Tuam"

Offline Dash Jones

  • Sub-Commander of the Dark Side
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6477
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 03:20:05 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do.  I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine. 

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline Pestalence_XC

  • "The Terminator"
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Gender: Male
  • "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 03:40:20 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do. I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine.

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team

Offline toasty0

  • Application.Quit();
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 8045
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 04:17:31 pm »
I had problems with XP, and still do.  I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine. 

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

Try any old machine. Linux, especially Fedora and its kin, thrive on older boxes. It's the modern, up-to-date hardware that throws Linux for a loop or two...
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline marstone

  • Because I can
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3014
  • Gender: Male
  • G.E.C.K. - The best kit to have
    • Ramblings on the Q3, blog
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 08:13:21 pm »
What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

what if you are doing a series of upgrades on your machine, it will show that the imprint is wrong numeous times thus you are installing on multiple machines according to MS.  I also don't think that a hardware inprint of my machine is needed by anyone but me.  You also have to trust that they really do drop all data, or anything else they collect from your machine.  I have a code to enter that came with my OS, that is all that should be needed.  Seems people hate it if "big brother" of a government pokes its nose in your stuff, but heck it is alright for a private company that doesn't have half the controls on it to do it.

The smell of printer ink in the morning,
Tis the smell of programming.

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 08:17:30 pm »
What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?

I was searching for some information earlier today and found an old post where I stated my feeling about activation so rather rerite it I looked it up and quote it below:

Quote
For some of us it is an issue with allowing Microsoft control of our systems.  Micrososft decides whether I am entitled to install the software on my system after a given upgrade.  Microsoft decides if I can continue using it after they stop supporting it.  I have even had Windows tell me that I couldn't copy a disk that I had legal rights to copy.  Microsoft is a convicted abusive monopolist, I don't trust them to control my system.  They have yet to demonstrate honesty and corporate integrity.   

It is my system, provided I stay within the law I am the one who is entitled to control what I do with it.  Microsoft is not the legal authorities and should not be acting as if they are.

A EULA should not be allowed to take away rights that I have under the law.  A company should not be able to effectively rewrite the law to give them power and take it away from their customers.

Software is covered by copyright law and the companies that make software should not be able to add unilateral extensions to their rights under the copyright laws at the cost of removing my rights without my willing consent.  Activation does exactly that.
 

Another earlier posting by myself shows how Microsoft can and does abuse activation:

Quote
Recently my brother-in-law who sells computers had the same problem except Microsoft refused him the codes.  So he told them outright they could *&^% themselves and he would install his Redhat on all SIX systems.  At that point they gave him new codes for all 6 machines - just in case he needed them for the other 5 later.

What gives Microsoft the unilateral right to not only be your accuser but your judge and jury as well?  With activaiton they claim the right accuse you, judge you guilty and levy a penalty.  Do you really wish to see a company with those rights?  I for one do not.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Pestalence_XC

  • "The Terminator"
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2636
  • Gender: Male
  • "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 11:46:31 pm »
When you buy 1 copy of XP or Vista, or any OS for that matter.. you buy the License, not the software. As such, the EULA clearly states that the intended and designed use is for 1 computer system. If you are going to install on multiple machines, then Microsoft EULA states that you will need to buy 1 copy for each machine, or call MS and buy individual keys for each machine ($35 each) or buy a Volume License Key for multiple machines. If you change more than 4 points of hardware within 120 days, then essentially you have built a new machine, and your EULA for the OS does not allow for that.. However after 120 days, the MS Activation Server dumps System ID keys about the registered computer's hardware and you can upgrade your system all you want or install to a different computer. Within 120 days, you can upgrade Video, Memory, add PCI and USB devices, and even replace the CPU, however replacement of the Main board constitutes replacing the whole computer due to different Bios and Northbridge and Southbridge.. and Activation will fail (essentially you built a different computer).. however after 120 days, it doesn't matter.

The same is true for Vista..

In other words, if you are planning an upgrade.. upgrade the machine before you install XP or after the 120 days are up and install / reactivate once all your upgrades are done.. plain and simple.

I do this all the time.. I have had 0 problems on activation .. also with MS working with me and without cost on system that have bad main boards found after activation.. I really can't complain.


"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

Member :
Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team
SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator
Taldren Beta Test Team
14 Degrees East Beta Test Team
Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team

Offline Dash Jones

  • Sub-Commander of the Dark Side
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6477
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vista Bashing: the New National Pastime?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2008, 12:56:41 am »
I had problems with XP, and still do. I don't agree with the authentication process for XP, never did.

With Vista it looks like they are getting even more intrusive into what I do, and hence, until I have to, I'm not buying a Vista machine.

Which is why for my next computer I'm actually looking at a computer I can wipe and install Linux on.

What is the problem with Authentication? Unless your OS is stolen, then there should be no problem.. XP installs, and then uses online activation.. You can also use the free call in to activate if you want..

Once activation happens, the Hardware imprint of your PC drops from MS after 120 days, and you can then install the OS on a new PC (a new main board is considered a new PC).. The way around this is to have a Volume License Key.

Now if your install CD is say a Dell OEM disk, then that is coded for a specific hardware imprint to match what is recorded on the CD.. if the Hardware does not match, then it won't install or activate properly.. since it was licensed OEM and not to you.

All activation does is to make sure that the Microsoft software you have is legitimate and not stolen.. and even then there are ways around it..

The point of the matter is DRM in XP does not work, all Activation does it to make sure your copy is legit and not being installed on 2 or 3 machines within a month.. That's it.. after 120 days, install again on a new machine..


Same goes for Vista based PC's.. exact same method as XP.. so what is the problem unless your OS is not purchased.. DRM in XP doesn't do anything that I know of.. I can copy DVD's and CD's all day long without a problem and no information about what I am doing is being sent online to anyone in either OS..

where's the problem?


Let's see, where to begin.  What if I don't have internet access, and don't have phone access either (you laugh, I've been there, so it's not that funny).

Next, try doing a LOT of changes on your computer, MS thinks that it's a new computer...and gives you a lot of hassles...I think that's BS.

If you don't register with them...you get locked out of your OWN computer after 30 days...that's BS.  They own the OS, not the Computer.

Next, they think that they can "rent" you an OS, I payed how much...and I'm not an owner...more BS.

Then there's the fact that I have to go in and change all the automatic settings (I hear it's next to impossible with Vista) when I intstall it in order to disable half the junk they have running.  That's BS.

and the list goes on and on.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.