Topic: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...  (Read 7845 times)

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Offline Sirgod

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No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« on: December 11, 2008, 11:21:07 am »
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html

Quote
"...observed one of my students with a group of other children gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back.

This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those receiving them..."


Or at least charge her with stupidity.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Clark Kent

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 01:16:50 pm »
What an ignorant bitch
CK

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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 01:20:39 pm »
LOL, I feel sorry for the guys kid.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 01:30:29 pm »
I wonder if the students will follow this up and demand their illegally confiscated CDs back.  Hopefully the student promoting Linux won't be happy that they didn't confiscate his laptop too and let the whole thing drop.  

Unfortunately there are many out there who can't believe in free software, it goes against their whole world view. 

Things like:
Quote
This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all.

Are all too typical.  The truth is that by using other systems they will end up learning the principals under which software works and that will help them in their ability to use whatever software they end up using at home and at work.  Isn't learning what the student is there for?  Isn't it what the teacher is supposed to be guiding the students to do?

Maybe she would feel better if she understood the "free" does not refer to cost but to Freedom.  It refers to the extra freedoms the license gives you in your use and distribution of the software beyond what normal copyright gives you.  The typical free software license says "Here are the terms under which we will give you more rights than the law does".  The typical EULA says "Here are the rights we claim to be denying you that the law gives you".  I'm sure you know which I prefer.  :)

It does appear the blog author is following this up higher in the administration.

Quote
Now. You give that boy his disks back. Aaron is a brilliant kid and he's learned more using Linux than he ever did using Windows. Those disks and their distribution are perfectly legal and even if he was "disruptive", you cannot keep his property. I have placed a call to the AISD Superintendent and cc'd him a complete copy of your email. It looks like we will get to meet in his office when School starts again after the holiday. I am anxious to meet a person who is this uninformed and still holds a position of authority and learnedness over our children.

Maybe the administration will learn from this and start to adopt some F.O.S.S. (Free and Open Source Software) and some good will come from her lack of knowledge and inability to accept things outside her knowledge.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 01:45:21 pm »
All of that is so true Nem. and this should serve as a reminder, (To me at least), that no matter how old I get, how inflexible, I could maybe just possibly be wrong about something.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 01:47:54 pm »
a second sad thing for that teacher is that Mac is making huge inroads to college/research.  Many of the offices in the building I work in (a local university medical research building) are getting Macs.  MS based machines are still the norm but Mac is widdling it down.

The machines for internet use in the hallways are all Linux based, so that is good too.  
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 02:23:42 pm »
I think that Linux use has doubled in the last year, macs are also making signifcant gains in market share.  I read that last month windows dropped below 90% net share.

I think people just gotten sick of dealing with windows.  Sure, if you're good with computers, it will do just fine, but not everyone knows how to deal with all the real world problems windows users have to deal with. 
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 02:41:00 pm »
I think that Linux use has doubled in the last year, macs are also making signifcant gains in market share.  I read that last month windows dropped below 90% net share.

I think people just gotten sick of dealing with windows.  Sure, if you're good with computers, it will do just fine, but not everyone knows how to deal with all the real world problems windows users have to deal with. 


Good point Brian. I recently got a copy of Sacred 2, finally got it working (don't ask) , and While I love the game, the DX stuff is questionable at best.

For example, why should I have to remove Xfire, powerDVD, and PowerCinema to run a game made for windows, a OS that allows the use of Xfire, poerdvd, and Powercinema?

Hell even COX (city of heroes/City of Villains can't keep up).

I look back, and think. when I made the old Atari 2600 glitch (holding the reset switch when powering it up) , I at least had mega speed with space invaders and Combat!

Linux and to a degree Mac, is looking at this, and slowly, oh so slowly, bringing Gaming back to the Personal computer.

Now padern me, while I dig out my Amiga 500. I hear there is a new CLI for it.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Bonk

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 03:03:51 pm »
The really sad part is that FOSS will be critical to the integrity of education and the soundness of science in the near future. Software cannot be properly validated or audited if the source code is not available. Look at the history of statistical functions in Excel - a good example.

I think the real story here is that pay for teachers is so low, this is the grade of person willing to do it, with all the social, political and physical risks it entails. Teachers should make at least as much per hour as high steel workers.

Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 03:09:58 pm »
I've never used, but mostly always been, a "back yard supporter" of Linux. It is, after all, free. I don't mind windows, and it has its uses and purposes. One day I'll make the leap of faith and go the better route. Just want to be sure what that route is (researching is in progress).

I look forward to the day when I can go into a compy store and I can choose from more than just Windows based PC's. How kick ass would the HP touchsmart be with Mac OS? I'd think it'd be like iPod Touch on crack. How about the "economy" row (usually the cheapest brands are grouped together, but not always) with the option to drop the price $200 for using Linux instead, preinstalled? Or better yet, you can buy the not-economy-but-exactly-the-same-equipment-with-better-quality brand for the economy price just for choosing Linux? There shouldn't be one major and two not quite as big players in the OS market, either. Variety of diet has helped humans live longer; variety of OS's for entertainment/work/whatever might extend that another year or three.

This teacher is, quite nicely, an R-tard. I can see temporarily removing the discs from the students (it is a disruption) but to go all out on a WINDOWS RULZ LINUX SUXORS rampage-email... there's so many things I want to say to this that are not forum appropriate. I'd like to keep up with the "news" as the story develops, and would LOVE to attend the meeting with the superintendant. This lady, Karen, needs to go back to school herself, and in the interrum, lose her license to teach. How can these kids learn anything when the teacher herself is stuck in the stone age? Get an older version of windows, she said... bah! Why? So this guy can downgrade from Linux?

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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 03:16:10 pm »
The really sad part is that FOSS will be critical to the integrity of education and the soundness of science in the near future. Software cannot be properly validated or audited if the source code is not available. Look at the history of statistical functions in Excel - a good example.

I think the real story here is that pay for teachers is so low, this is the grade of person willing to do it, with all the social, political and physical risks it entails. Teachers should make at least as much per hour as high steel workers.

See , and I hope I don't merge into H&S territory here, Teachers should make more, but in the case of Oklahoma, the supervisors over education should make way way less. There is a correlation that could be made, between them and Executive payouts.

Also, And I respectfully question you on this, and would like you to elaborate... how would a higher wage mean she would have understood the principles of open source? She would have no more education for what she is doing now, she would have no more free time, etc. etc. where would she learn this new concept of the Free Software OS?

Like I said, I agree teachers are one of our most valuable assets, There are pro's and con's to the American School system, etc. and in fairness, I was one who home schooled , not because of religion, not because of sex ed, but because the teachers at the time could not be bothered. Mind you the pay issue might be a timing thing, and I could agree more with your point. ie. If they knew there rate of pay was higher, they could afford more classes in college in Computer science.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Bonk

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 03:31:42 pm »
Also, And I respectfully question you on this, and would like you to elaborate... how would a higher wage mean she would have understood the principles of open source? She would have no more education for what she is doing now, she would have no more free time, etc. etc. where would she learn this new concept of the Free Software OS?

More pay = more competition for the job = better quality employees. (not a guarantee, of course)

Increasing this woman's pay would not magically make her wise, of course not. But if the pay for teachers was higher, she might never have gotten the job, where someone else with more knowledge and wisdom might have.

The remuneration for teachers is way out of line with the risk involved. There is no respect or control in the classroom because of "political" (correctness) issues. A single disgruntled student can put a teacher in jail and permanently ruin their career with one false accusation. Let alone the frustration of teaching in an atmosphere with no respect for quality education. Violence in the classroom is a risk pay issue if you ask me, it should not even be a consideration, never was in our day, and kids are still the same, they are no more violent than we were.

A number of people in my family have taught public school, after watching them - nobody could pay me enough to do the job. I would do it if teachers were empowered to actually teach and appropriately rewarded for the risk and effort involved.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 03:39:08 pm »
More pay = more competition for the job = better quality employees. (not a guarantee, of course)

My observation on teachers over the years is that more pay and benefits = more people who want the pay and benefits become teachers.  You end with a lower proportion of people who want to teach and care about education as teachers.  More useless twits and fewer who deserve to be called teachers.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 03:53:23 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union. ;)  I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looking for enough money to survive on.

And let's face it, one does not have to be all that well educated or aware of one's surroundings to know what Linux or the concept of FOSS is.

Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 04:02:23 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union. ;)  I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looking for enough money to survive on.

And let's face it, one does not have to be all that well educated or aware of one's surroundings to know what Linux or the concept of FOSS is.

Hey I am slowly becoming one of the biggest Linux supporters. Hell Nem has only been working on me for how many years? :D

Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.

Stephen

"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 04:24:38 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union. ;)  I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looI'm not a sports fan but one of the things the seems to happen the moment a "star" gets the big contract is when their performance starts to decline.king for enough money to survive on.

Its a different thing in pro sports as there are easy to measure methods of determining performance and no concept of tenure, you make the grade or you don't.  That said we have many examples in pro sports of how many of them are in it for other than the joy of playing as evidenced by all the drug use (both recreational and enhancing drugs).  Measuring the performance of a teacher is more difficult (but possible).  One repeated observation is the moment a "star" gets the big contract is when their performance declines.  With a dedicated player that wouldn't happen.  It happens (IMO) because thats the moment where the player has what he is in for the big $$s and he is either spending them or managing them rather than playing the game. 

Those who do things that they want to do tend to get better and better and those who are just putting in time for the $$ get worse.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 04:33:44 pm »
Hey I am slowly becoming one of the biggest Linux supporters. Hell Nem has only been working on me for how many years? :D

Stephen

I've made a few FOSS converts over the years.   :)
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 05:01:11 pm »
Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.


Public or private funds, the same principle applies. Let's say for the sake of argument that all education is privatised, my assertion stands on the simple economic principle of supply and demand. The quality of person that really makes a really good school teacher is in somewhat rare supply, therefore it will cost more to get those people. Same would apply to a private venture Martial arts school for any instructors you would hire. If the school up the road pays more, your best instructors might go there.

I'm really thinking of it pretty simply so may be missing some deeper economic theory, but the NHL example is relevant for me in that for the most part all the players salaries are pretty huge compared to your average Joe of course. The captain or goalie might make more than the others I don't really know, but they all make like way more more money than I do. ( check the table here for 2007-2008 salaries: http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/average-salary.htm ) Well and the other part of the hockey example is that you have big name stars that no doubt get more money than the benchwarmers. There is currently no room for "stars" in education outside the university (as they are). Why not pay big for the best and the brightest to be teaching our youth as well as pro sports player are paid to entertain us. Sure the average pay could not be so high because we need way more teachers than NHL players, but surely better incentives could be present for the educators of the future generations of humanity. This would also engender respect from the students.

Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 05:52:43 pm »
Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.


Public or private funds, the same principle applies. Let's say for the sake of argument that all education is privatised, my assertion stands on the simple economic principle of supply and demand. The quality of person that really makes a really good school teacher is in somewhat rare supply, therefore it will cost more to get those people. Same would apply to a private venture Martial arts school for any instructors you would hire. If the school up the road pays more, your best instructors might go there.

I'm really thinking of it pretty simply so may be missing some deeper economic theory, but the NHL example is relevant for me in that for the most part all the players salaries are pretty huge compared to your average Joe of course. The captain or goalie might make more than the others I don't really know, but they all make like way more more money than I do. ( check the table here for 2007-2008 salaries: http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/average-salary.htm ) Well and the other part of the hockey example is that you have big name stars that no doubt get more money than the benchwarmers. There is currently no room for "stars" in education outside the university (as they are). Why not pay big for the best and the brightest to be teaching our youth as well as pro sports player are paid to entertain us. Sure the average pay could not be so high because we need way more teachers than NHL players, but surely better incentives could be present for the educators of the future generations of humanity. This would also engender respect from the students.


I think we are on the same boat then. Esp. when discussing Sports pay vs. educational teachers pay.

To be honest, I can agree with you. I can't think of one person who has ever posted here, who would not have liked Einstein to have schooled them. My personal Favorite Physics teacher, being George, Sudarshan  from Texas U. The first Theoretical professor imagine Tachyon particles, and to look for them during Decay.

I would like to take this time, to add music or any art class to this discussion. I will use Music, as that is what I most familiar with.

when a new student learns of common time or 4/4 time, they discover a world of Fractions. A world of Octaves.  Breath Control, and IF they are willing, imagination through improvisation. I have yet to see that with Team sports.

Now to be honest, I cherish individuality more so then group activity, and this  more then likely Biases my view.

Stephen

"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 06:33:15 pm »
Linux and to a degree Mac, is looking at this, and slowly, oh so slowly, bringing Gaming back to the Personal computer.

Now padern me, while I dig out my Amiga 500. I hear there is a new CLI for it.

Stephen

woo hoo, Amiga.  I have owned three different Amiga's and loved each one. (last one drowned in a flood)  I would love to see it come back in a newer form.
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 06:45:33 pm »
Linux and to a degree Mac, is looking at this, and slowly, oh so slowly, bringing Gaming back to the Personal computer.

Now padern me, while I dig out my Amiga 500. I hear there is a new CLI for it.

Stephen

woo hoo, Amiga.  I have owned three different Amiga's and loved each one. (last one drowned in a flood)  I would love to see it come back in a newer form.

You me, and Scott Bruno...

Scott was one of the few original programers who ever worked with an Amiga.

Hell for years, I used the commodore Monitor as a TV.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 06:49:42 pm »
I just last month got rid of my 1080S monitor.  My son used it to play his N64/xbox on.  I did like programming on it, was interesting.

That machine was so far ahead of it's time.  Schools should have had them instead of clones or apple II's.  Then now noone would think twice of MS.
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 06:59:10 pm »
I just last month got rid of my 1080S monitor.  My son used it to play his N64/xbox on.  I did like programming on it, was interesting.

That machine was so far ahead of it's time.  Schools should have had them instead of clones or apple II's.  Then now noone would think twice of MS.

Add a video toaster, and you where the god of the 80'S.

The best machine ever made Mars., Best machine ever.

Stephen
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Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 07:55:39 pm »
I just last month got rid of my 1080S monitor.  My son used it to play his N64/xbox on.  I did like programming on it, was interesting.

That machine was so far ahead of it's time.  Schools should have had them instead of clones or apple II's.  Then now noone would think twice of MS.

Add a video toaster, and you where the god of the 80'S.

The best machine ever made Mars., Best machine ever.

Stephen

ohh, I wanted a toaster.
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 08:18:35 pm »
I just last month got rid of my 1080S monitor.  My son used it to play his N64/xbox on.  I did like programming on it, was interesting.

That machine was so far ahead of it's time.  Schools should have had them instead of clones or apple II's.  Then now noone would think twice of MS.

Add a video toaster, and you where the god of the 80'S.

The best machine ever made Mars., Best machine ever.

Stephen

ohh, I wanted a toaster.

The Intro to the TNG series was made with an Amiga 2000, and a video toaster.  My god man, the things we could do with Differing instruction sets, to Fat Denise.

Stephen
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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 10:42:07 pm »
Amiga ... Nice machine at the time.. I had a couple machines a little older.. IBM 8088 and an Adam 8086 portable.

I remember the expansion casette drives, memory and program cartridges, etc.

Ah, the good old days.
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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 05:04:43 am »
This type of thing has happened before.  It was a government official not a teacher.  (This was over Firefox)

Quote
"I can't believe that your company would allow people to make money from something that you allow people to have free access to. Is this really the case?" she asked.

"If Mozilla permit the sale of copied versions of its software, it makes it virtually impossible for us, from a practical point of view, to enforce UK anti-piracy legislation, as it is difficult for us to give general advice to businesses over what is/is not permitted."


She seemed to think people shouldn't give away software so her job would be easier.  She wouldn't have to investigate on a case by case basis whether or not a given software was really legal or not she would have to seek and evaluate evidence rather than rubber stamping complaints as valid.
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Offline Dracho

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 07:01:00 am »
I think I would send her a short reply that goes something as follows:

Madam,

Thank you for your opinion.  As a matter of curiosity, are you aware that you are a stupid, uninformed b*tch, or does this question come as a shock to your over-inflated ego?

Sincerely,

The Penguin
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 07:17:02 am »
I would have been more polite but among the things I would have done is directed her to Microsoft as the market leader and suggest that she talk to them about giving away IE. 

One comparison I have used for explaining the philosophy behind free software is the pioneers (and such groups as the Amish today) doing barn raisings.  The people doing the barn raising's for free were not just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they knew that down the road at some point it would be their turn for the community to get together and help them out.  Those who could but wouldn't help others found others wouldn't help them.

Free software people are the same as those pioneers in community working.  Each of those on a project want what the project offers and each for the efforts they put out get to have the results of the efforts of all the others.  Few of those contributing could have created the whole thing and not as quickly (or in most cases as well) but together they accomplish it and do so faster and usually better.  Those who don't contribute code can still do other things, bug reports, manual/help file writing, promoting its wider use and defending it from attacks like these.

For those who call this communist (Microsoft) or unAmerican (Microsoft again) I ask were the pioneers communists or unAmerican with their barn raisings?  If not then what is the difference that makes the free software community bad?  I have yet to get a response that made any sense.
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Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2008, 08:49:30 am »
Free software people are the same as those pioneers in community working.  Each of those on a project want what the project offers and each for the efforts they put out get to have the results of the efforts of all the others.  Few of those contributing could have created the whole thing and not as quickly (or in most cases as well) but together they accomplish it and do so faster and usually better.  Those who don't contribute code can still do other things, bug reports, manual/help file writing, promoting its wider use and defending it from attacks like these.

For those who call this communist (Microsoft) or unAmerican (Microsoft again) I ask were the pioneers communists or unAmerican with their barn raisings?  If not then what is the difference that makes the free software community bad?  I have yet to get a response that made any sense.

Also don't forget for new programmers out of school, free projects are a great way to build a code resume for getting that great paying job.  Companies want people who have shown what they can do, not what they think they can do. 

It becomes the try before you buy examples to future employers.  What better win/win can there be, free good software for the masses.  Good paying jobs down the road for the programmers who do it.
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Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2008, 08:52:15 am »
I guess you can also look at the altruism of free software.  All these teacher types love it when someone donates money to needy causes.  This is the same thing.  Makes the giver (programmers, designers, etc) feel good about giving a good product to others.  The receivers can enjoy the hours of fun or usefullness they get from the software.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2008, 09:13:57 am »
Also don't forget for new programmers out of school, free projects are a great way to build a code resume for getting that great paying job.  Companies want people who have shown what they can do, not what they think they can do. 

It becomes the try before you buy examples to future employers.  What better win/win can there be, free good software for the masses.  Good paying jobs down the road for the programmers who do it.

Not to mention that if your company uses "program X" and it is open source you can at least potentially hire one of the creators to customize/enhance it for your use.  Want to have a proprietary program enhanced for your use?  Be ready with lots of zeros for the check and no guarantee that even that will be enough.

I guess you can also look at the altruism of free software.  All these teacher types love it when someone donates money to needy causes.  This is the same thing.  Makes the giver (programmers, designers, etc) feel good about giving a good product to others.  The receivers can enjoy the hours of fun or usefullness they get from the software.

I usually compare to charity volunteer work when some one starts on "companies like Redhat/IBM are EXPLOITING those poor programmers".  A lot of volunteer work and charitable giving benefits companies but you wouln't want to stop it would you?  So why try and stop people from volunteering on software creation of their own free will just because some companies profit from it?  (Redhat and IBM specifically give a lot back to the community too).
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Offline Dracho

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2008, 12:02:55 pm »
I have a ton of servers and Point-of-sale systems running Linux that says the only clue she has came in a box and was made by Milton Bradley.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2008, 12:21:03 pm »
a second sad thing for that teacher is that Mac is making huge inroads to college/research.  Many of the offices in the building I work in (a local university medical research building) are getting Macs.  MS based machines are still the norm but Mac is widdling it down.

The machines for internet use in the hallways are all Linux based, so that is good too.  

Many of you are too young to remember, but at one time Mac owned all schools. Then they played the monoply card and everyone ran to PC.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2008, 01:38:25 pm »
a second sad thing for that teacher is that Mac is making huge inroads to college/research.  Many of the offices in the building I work in (a local university medical research building) are getting Macs.  MS based machines are still the norm but Mac is widdling it down.

The machines for internet use in the hallways are all Linux based, so that is good too.  

Many of you are too young to remember, but at one time Mac owned all schools. Then they played the monoply card and everyone ran to PC.

Mac or Apple II? 
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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2008, 01:47:09 pm »
When I was in my school district's elementary-level gifted program in the early/mid 90s, we had nothing but early model Macs. Our computer lab at my home school had mostly Apple IIs for the first few years I was there.

I was so happy when I got to middle school and the district finally started to ditch all their crappy Apple products in favor of PCs...

So no, Toasty, some of us aren't too young to remember. ;)
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2008, 02:07:11 pm »
Man that takes me back ToastyO and Kieran. I can remember having the weekly 20 spelling words and we would use an old Mac (apple IIC ) to make a crossword puzzle.

I do indeed remember them in school.

Stephen
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2008, 02:25:20 pm »
I was reading on another site some posts about this and here is the best one:

Quote
Imagine if that same attitude was taken during the women's rights movement. Basically, the equivalent comment would be, "do not teach women about science, math, or business because its not preparing them for the real world."

Myself I find that learning competing methods gives me trouble shooting skills that I would have missed if I had only learned one way.  Just the other day my knowledge of DOS allowed me to delete files and directories that Windows Explorer (in XP) refused to delete (these were user created not system files/directories).  Someone who never learned DOS or the commandline would have been stuck.   Things I've learned from DOS/Windows have made me better with Linux and my Windows system became more stable using concepts I learned from Linux.

Restricting students to a narrow curriculum (on whatever topic) cripples them (IMO of course). 
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Offline marstone

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2008, 04:49:03 pm »
When I was in my school district's elementary-level gifted program in the early/mid 90s, we had nothing but early model Macs. Our computer lab at my home school had mostly Apple IIs for the first few years I was there.

I was so happy when I got to middle school and the district finally started to ditch all their crappy Apple products in favor of PCs...

So no, Toasty, some of us aren't too young to remember. ;)

our school district was all AppleII+'s.  Mac's never made it up in my area (in the schools that is). 

Too young, no.  I was one of the first two students to be able to program on the schools one computer back in 7th grade.  Had to teach ourselves how to program.  HS had basic programming courses, but never learned as much as I did with a keyboard at one hand, and the book on the language in the other.
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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2008, 05:02:39 pm »
My school district had macs since before I got into jr high.  The elementary schools stayed on Apple IIs, but the Jr high and HS has always had a policy of "needing" the latest models, and they usually choose models that are over priced for what they offer.  Always macs though.  When I got there, they had some LCs that were just about at the "end" of their "useful life.  They upgraded their systems 3-4 times from my 7th to 12 grade years, and as far as I can tell, they are continuing to follow that kind of mentality.

Then they wonder why voters keep voting "no" on the new school bond referendums they push out every 1-2 years.  Well, actually, they don't wonder, they very loudly and publicly whine to high heaven about it.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2008, 08:22:26 pm »
a second sad thing for that teacher is that Mac is making huge inroads to college/research.  Many of the offices in the building I work in (a local university medical research building) are getting Macs.  MS based machines are still the norm but Mac is widdling it down.

The machines for internet use in the hallways are all Linux based, so that is good too.  

Many of you are too young to remember, but at one time Mac owned all schools. Then they played the monoply card and everyone ran to PC.

Mac or Apple II? 

Apple and then Mac. I remember pounding fortran into one of those funny little boxes called Mac.

Apple Basic was evil.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2008, 08:24:55 pm »
Apple Basic was evil.

How could you expect it to be anything else?  They licensed it from Microsoft after all. 

 :laugh:
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2008, 08:55:25 pm »
Update on this story

Quote
Karen and I have talked on the phone now for a couple of hours, here and there. We've come to understand each other more and had she said some of the things in her email that she said during our phone conversations...this black ink on white digital paper probably wouldn't exist.

And neither would over 2000 comments that were less than kind on one end of it and absolutely brutal on the other.

The student did get his Linux disks back after the class. The lad was being disruptive, but that wasn't mentioned. Neither was the obvious fact that when she saw a gaggle of giggling 8th grade boys gathered around a laptop, the last thing she expected to see on that screen was a spinning cube.

She didn't know what was on those disks he was handing out. It could have been porn, viral .exe's...any number of things for all she knew. When she heard that an adult had given him some of the disks to hand out, her spidey-senses started tingling. Coupled with the fact that she truly was ignorant of honest-to-goodness Free Software, and you have some fairly impressive conclusion-jumping.

In a couple of ways, I am guilty of it too.

Karen seems to be a good teacher, and as she stated to me today, she has learned more about the tech world in a few days than she's learned in five years.
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