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#### Sirgod

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##### No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« on: December 11, 2008, 11:21:07 am »
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html

Quote
"...observed one of my students with a group of other children gathered around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was giving a demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the ability of the laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful. These children look up to adults for guidance and discipline. I will research this as time allows and I want to assure you, if you are doing anything illegal, I will pursue charges as the law allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many others tried Linux during college and I assure you, the claims you make are grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods. I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back.

This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those receiving them..."

Or at least charge her with stupidity.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### Clark Kent

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 01:16:50 pm »
What an ignorant bitch
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
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#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 01:20:39 pm »
LOL, I feel sorry for the guys kid.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 01:30:29 pm »
I wonder if the students will follow this up and demand their illegally confiscated CDs back.  Hopefully the student promoting Linux won't be happy that they didn't confiscate his laptop too and let the whole thing drop.

Unfortunately there are many out there who can't believe in free software, it goes against their whole world view.

Things like:
Quote
This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all.

Are all too typical.  The truth is that by using other systems they will end up learning the principals under which software works and that will help them in their ability to use whatever software they end up using at home and at work.  Isn't learning what the student is there for?  Isn't it what the teacher is supposed to be guiding the students to do?

Maybe she would feel better if she understood the "free" does not refer to cost but to Freedom.  It refers to the extra freedoms the license gives you in your use and distribution of the software beyond what normal copyright gives you.  The typical free software license says "Here are the terms under which we will give you more rights than the law does".  The typical EULA says "Here are the rights we claim to be denying you that the law gives you".  I'm sure you know which I prefer.

It does appear the blog author is following this up higher in the administration.

Quote
Now. You give that boy his disks back. Aaron is a brilliant kid and he's learned more using Linux than he ever did using Windows. Those disks and their distribution are perfectly legal and even if he was "disruptive", you cannot keep his property. I have placed a call to the AISD Superintendent and cc'd him a complete copy of your email. It looks like we will get to meet in his office when School starts again after the holiday. I am anxious to meet a person who is this uninformed and still holds a position of authority and learnedness over our children.

Maybe the administration will learn from this and start to adopt some F.O.S.S. (Free and Open Source Software) and some good will come from her lack of knowledge and inability to accept things outside her knowledge.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
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#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 01:45:21 pm »
All of that is so true Nem. and this should serve as a reminder, (To me at least), that no matter how old I get, how inflexible, I could maybe just possibly be wrong about something.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### marstone

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 01:47:54 pm »
a second sad thing for that teacher is that Mac is making huge inroads to college/research.  Many of the offices in the building I work in (a local university medical research building) are getting Macs.  MS based machines are still the norm but Mac is widdling it down.

The machines for internet use in the hallways are all Linux based, so that is good too.
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#### Clark Kent

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 02:23:42 pm »
I think that Linux use has doubled in the last year, macs are also making signifcant gains in market share.  I read that last month windows dropped below 90% net share.

I think people just gotten sick of dealing with windows.  Sure, if you're good with computers, it will do just fine, but not everyone knows how to deal with all the real world problems windows users have to deal with.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 02:41:00 pm »
I think that Linux use has doubled in the last year, macs are also making signifcant gains in market share.  I read that last month windows dropped below 90% net share.

I think people just gotten sick of dealing with windows.  Sure, if you're good with computers, it will do just fine, but not everyone knows how to deal with all the real world problems windows users have to deal with.

Good point Brian. I recently got a copy of Sacred 2, finally got it working (don't ask) , and While I love the game, the DX stuff is questionable at best.

For example, why should I have to remove Xfire, powerDVD, and PowerCinema to run a game made for windows, a OS that allows the use of Xfire, poerdvd, and Powercinema?

Hell even COX (city of heroes/City of Villains can't keep up).

I look back, and think. when I made the old Atari 2600 glitch (holding the reset switch when powering it up) , I at least had mega speed with space invaders and Combat!

Linux and to a degree Mac, is looking at this, and slowly, oh so slowly, bringing Gaming back to the Personal computer.

Now padern me, while I dig out my Amiga 500. I hear there is a new CLI for it.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### Bonk

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 03:03:51 pm »
The really sad part is that FOSS will be critical to the integrity of education and the soundness of science in the near future. Software cannot be properly validated or audited if the source code is not available. Look at the history of statistical functions in Excel - a good example.

I think the real story here is that pay for teachers is so low, this is the grade of person willing to do it, with all the social, political and physical risks it entails. Teachers should make at least as much per hour as high steel workers.

#### Czar Mohab

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 03:09:58 pm »
I've never used, but mostly always been, a "back yard supporter" of Linux. It is, after all, free. I don't mind windows, and it has its uses and purposes. One day I'll make the leap of faith and go the better route. Just want to be sure what that route is (researching is in progress).

I look forward to the day when I can go into a compy store and I can choose from more than just Windows based PC's. How kick ass would the HP touchsmart be with Mac OS? I'd think it'd be like iPod Touch on crack. How about the "economy" row (usually the cheapest brands are grouped together, but not always) with the option to drop the price \$200 for using Linux instead, preinstalled? Or better yet, you can buy the not-economy-but-exactly-the-same-equipment-with-better-quality brand for the economy price just for choosing Linux? There shouldn't be one major and two not quite as big players in the OS market, either. Variety of diet has helped humans live longer; variety of OS's for entertainment/work/whatever might extend that another year or three.

This teacher is, quite nicely, an R-tard. I can see temporarily removing the discs from the students (it is a disruption) but to go all out on a WINDOWS RULZ LINUX SUXORS rampage-email... there's so many things I want to say to this that are not forum appropriate. I'd like to keep up with the "news" as the story develops, and would LOVE to attend the meeting with the superintendant. This lady, Karen, needs to go back to school herself, and in the interrum, lose her license to teach. How can these kids learn anything when the teacher herself is stuck in the stone age? Get an older version of windows, she said... bah! Why? So this guy can downgrade from Linux?

Czar "'He's a witch! Burn him!' shouted the uneducated educator at the Linux using student," Mohab
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#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 03:16:10 pm »
The really sad part is that FOSS will be critical to the integrity of education and the soundness of science in the near future. Software cannot be properly validated or audited if the source code is not available. Look at the history of statistical functions in Excel - a good example.

I think the real story here is that pay for teachers is so low, this is the grade of person willing to do it, with all the social, political and physical risks it entails. Teachers should make at least as much per hour as high steel workers.

See , and I hope I don't merge into H&S territory here, Teachers should make more, but in the case of Oklahoma, the supervisors over education should make way way less. There is a correlation that could be made, between them and Executive payouts.

Also, And I respectfully question you on this, and would like you to elaborate... how would a higher wage mean she would have understood the principles of open source? She would have no more education for what she is doing now, she would have no more free time, etc. etc. where would she learn this new concept of the Free Software OS?

Like I said, I agree teachers are one of our most valuable assets, There are pro's and con's to the American School system, etc. and in fairness, I was one who home schooled , not because of religion, not because of sex ed, but because the teachers at the time could not be bothered. Mind you the pay issue might be a timing thing, and I could agree more with your point. ie. If they knew there rate of pay was higher, they could afford more classes in college in Computer science.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### Bonk

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 03:31:42 pm »
Also, And I respectfully question you on this, and would like you to elaborate... how would a higher wage mean she would have understood the principles of open source? She would have no more education for what she is doing now, she would have no more free time, etc. etc. where would she learn this new concept of the Free Software OS?

More pay = more competition for the job = better quality employees. (not a guarantee, of course)

Increasing this woman's pay would not magically make her wise, of course not. But if the pay for teachers was higher, she might never have gotten the job, where someone else with more knowledge and wisdom might have.

The remuneration for teachers is way out of line with the risk involved. There is no respect or control in the classroom because of "political" (correctness) issues. A single disgruntled student can put a teacher in jail and permanently ruin their career with one false accusation. Let alone the frustration of teaching in an atmosphere with no respect for quality education. Violence in the classroom is a risk pay issue if you ask me, it should not even be a consideration, never was in our day, and kids are still the same, they are no more violent than we were.

A number of people in my family have taught public school, after watching them - nobody could pay me enough to do the job. I would do it if teachers were empowered to actually teach and appropriately rewarded for the risk and effort involved.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 03:39:08 pm »
More pay = more competition for the job = better quality employees. (not a guarantee, of course)

My observation on teachers over the years is that more pay and benefits = more people who want the pay and benefits become teachers.  You end with a lower proportion of people who want to teach and care about education as teachers.  More useless twits and fewer who deserve to be called teachers.
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#### Bonk

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 03:53:23 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union.   I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looking for enough money to survive on.

And let's face it, one does not have to be all that well educated or aware of one's surroundings to know what Linux or the concept of FOSS is.

#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 04:02:23 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union.   I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looking for enough money to survive on.

And let's face it, one does not have to be all that well educated or aware of one's surroundings to know what Linux or the concept of FOSS is.

Hey I am slowly becoming one of the biggest Linux supporters. Hell Nem has only been working on me for how many years?

Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.

Stephen

"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 04:24:38 pm »
What you observed there are the effects of a union.   I know what you are talking about all too well, and it is not the pay that results in such a situation. Think NHL hockey players - try to apply your argument to that case to see where the logic fails.

Well paying jobs get competed for. Very few young people are looking for a career to better the earth. They are looI'm not a sports fan but one of the things the seems to happen the moment a "star" gets the big contract is when their performance starts to decline.king for enough money to survive on.

Its a different thing in pro sports as there are easy to measure methods of determining performance and no concept of tenure, you make the grade or you don't.  That said we have many examples in pro sports of how many of them are in it for other than the joy of playing as evidenced by all the drug use (both recreational and enhancing drugs).  Measuring the performance of a teacher is more difficult (but possible).  One repeated observation is the moment a "star" gets the big contract is when their performance declines.  With a dedicated player that wouldn't happen.  It happens (IMO) because thats the moment where the player has what he is in for the big $$s and he is either spending them or managing them rather than playing the game. Those who do things that they want to do tend to get better and better and those who are just putting in time for the$$ get worse.
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I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 04:33:44 pm »
Hey I am slowly becoming one of the biggest Linux supporters. Hell Nem has only been working on me for how many years?

Stephen

I've made a few FOSS converts over the years.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Bonk

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 05:01:11 pm »
Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.

Public or private funds, the same principle applies. Let's say for the sake of argument that all education is privatised, my assertion stands on the simple economic principle of supply and demand. The quality of person that really makes a really good school teacher is in somewhat rare supply, therefore it will cost more to get those people. Same would apply to a private venture Martial arts school for any instructors you would hire. If the school up the road pays more, your best instructors might go there.

I'm really thinking of it pretty simply so may be missing some deeper economic theory, but the NHL example is relevant for me in that for the most part all the players salaries are pretty huge compared to your average Joe of course. The captain or goalie might make more than the others I don't really know, but they all make like way more more money than I do. ( check the table here for 2007-2008 salaries: http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/average-salary.htm ) Well and the other part of the hockey example is that you have big name stars that no doubt get more money than the benchwarmers. There is currently no room for "stars" in education outside the university (as they are). Why not pay big for the best and the brightest to be teaching our youth as well as pro sports player are paid to entertain us. Sure the average pay could not be so high because we need way more teachers than NHL players, but surely better incentives could be present for the educators of the future generations of humanity. This would also engender respect from the students.

#### Sirgod

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 05:52:43 pm »
Can you clarify the NHL thing please? As far as I know, there salaries are not paid by Tax payer dollars, but by people who I suppose, love hockey, and are willing to let them get those salaries. Personally, When I was teaching one of the best Martial arts schools in Oklahoma back in the mid 90's, I had a lot of police, state, local etc. that took lessons. Never did I think of charging the state. But I digress.

Does the head team leaders of the NHL make more then the players? or is it the opposite. Please excuse me , as I know very little about Team sports, and by my own admission, The above comments should probably be ignored.

Public or private funds, the same principle applies. Let's say for the sake of argument that all education is privatised, my assertion stands on the simple economic principle of supply and demand. The quality of person that really makes a really good school teacher is in somewhat rare supply, therefore it will cost more to get those people. Same would apply to a private venture Martial arts school for any instructors you would hire. If the school up the road pays more, your best instructors might go there.

I'm really thinking of it pretty simply so may be missing some deeper economic theory, but the NHL example is relevant for me in that for the most part all the players salaries are pretty huge compared to your average Joe of course. The captain or goalie might make more than the others I don't really know, but they all make like way more more money than I do. ( check the table here for 2007-2008 salaries: http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/average-salary.htm ) Well and the other part of the hockey example is that you have big name stars that no doubt get more money than the benchwarmers. There is currently no room for "stars" in education outside the university (as they are). Why not pay big for the best and the brightest to be teaching our youth as well as pro sports player are paid to entertain us. Sure the average pay could not be so high because we need way more teachers than NHL players, but surely better incentives could be present for the educators of the future generations of humanity. This would also engender respect from the students.

I think we are on the same boat then. Esp. when discussing Sports pay vs. educational teachers pay.

To be honest, I can agree with you. I can't think of one person who has ever posted here, who would not have liked Einstein to have schooled them. My personal Favorite Physics teacher, being George, Sudarshan  from Texas U. The first Theoretical professor imagine Tachyon particles, and to look for them during Decay.

I would like to take this time, to add music or any art class to this discussion. I will use Music, as that is what I most familiar with.

when a new student learns of common time or 4/4 time, they discover a world of Fractions. A world of Octaves.  Breath Control, and IF they are willing, imagination through improvisation. I have yet to see that with Team sports.

Now to be honest, I cherish individuality more so then group activity, and this  more then likely Biases my view.

Stephen

"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

#### marstone

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##### Re: No software is free? I say we charge her with theft...
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 06:33:15 pm »
Linux and to a degree Mac, is looking at this, and slowly, oh so slowly, bringing Gaming back to the Personal computer.

Now padern me, while I dig out my Amiga 500. I hear there is a new CLI for it.

Stephen

woo hoo, Amiga.  I have owned three different Amiga's and loved each one. (last one drowned in a flood)  I would love to see it come back in a newer form.
The smell of printer ink in the morning,
Tis the smell of programming.