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#### Bonk

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2009, 01:12:30 pm »
I used to build my own. (Philosophy: buy parts from manufacturers that specialise in those parts.) My old mid-line self built PIII system out-performed many pre-built P4 systems built up to eight years later.

However now with multi-core processors and huge amounts of memory and insane bus speeds it all doesn't matter so much anymore. Particularly if you buy last years pre-built model on sale. (e.g. this Toshiba Satellite L300D I got for $400 or the Compaq Presario sr5648f I got for$550 that canada-east.ca runs on - both systems came complete - monitor, keyboard etc.)

That said, if I were to build my own today I would probably follow the same philosophy I used to. It would likely cost about twice as much as last years pre-built on sale but would likely last twice as long.)

Case: InWin Full Tower or equivalent

Power Supply: Powerman >=450W or equivalent

Mainboard: Asus Or Gigabyte without any on-board anything with as many expansion slots as possible of as may types as possible (ISA,PCI,AGP,PCIe,etc. ...) ... with a Traditional BIOS if still possible. None of this EFI crap. Phoenix or better.

Processor: I used to say a $300 Intel processor with a solid QA record, though now I'm tempted to say a$170 AMD processor with a solid QA record. Boxed with fan.

Chassis fan(s): Solid ball bearing fans - should run about $20 each. Hard Disk: Western Digital -$150-300 depending on required capacity.

Optical drive: I used to say SCSI Yamaha or Plextor @ about $600, but these devices are effectively disposable now, I suggest a$70 Sony DVD burner.

Optical Drive 2: Again disposable these days... look for cheap and quiet.

Floppy (yes, a floppy drive): Panasonic - $40. Modem (yes a modem): a USR 56K full hardware modem. (the kind that can answer the phone) A serial IO board if not provided in the mainbord. IOTech? Memory: Kingston or better to fit the mainboard. (but not the bogus super memory crap) Video: Matrox Parhelia (yes, Matrox - they simply are the best - but don't expect to run the latest games designed to sell NVIDIA cards), You see, Matrox has a history of providing real open source drivers for Linux and "just working" on any OS. Network: D-link 100Mbit. Gigbit only makes sense if you invest in a gigabit switch for your lan and actually have the need to transfer hundreds of GB over the network. Internet connection: Motorola Surfboard Cable modem. Network interface. Nothing less. Router: Linksys. Wired. (I'd say D-link but their port range forwarding is still lacking) Keyboard: Keytronics 104 (indestructible) or an old IBM clickety-clack (also indestructible) with an AT->PS2 adapter. Mouse: Logitech three button wheel mouse (DO NOT install the drivers). Monitor: Philips CRT. Um what's left? I imagine I'm a little out of date, but this is still the construction philosophy I would apply. None of this N-force chipset stuff. I want everything in the machine to be made by a manufacturer that specifically makes those parts and has been doing so for more than 10 years. But it is a bunch of work running around to get all the parts then building it, when I can just go grab a machine on sale for a few hundred bucks that will probably do everything I need. But if you custom build with this philosophy, you will find that your computer can run just about any OS out there. I had five operating systems on that old PIII system at one point. #### candle_86 • The Old School • Lt. • Posts: 509 • Gender: • Position Gamma Hydra sector 10 ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #61 on: September 20, 2009, 04:01:24 pm » I used to build my own. (Philosophy: buy parts from manufacturers that specialise in those parts.) My old mid-line self built PIII system out-performed many pre-built P4 systems built up to eight years later. However now with multi-core processors and huge amounts of memory and insane bus speeds it all doesn't matter so much anymore. Particularly if you buy last years pre-built model on sale. (e.g. this Toshiba Satellite L300D I got for$400 or the Compaq Presario sr5648f I got for $550 that canada-east.ca runs on - both systems came complete - monitor, keyboard etc.) That said, if I were to build my own today I would probably follow the same philosophy I used to. It would likely cost about twice as much as last years pre-built on sale but would likely last twice as long.) Case: InWin Full Tower or equivalent Power Supply: Powerman >=450W or equivalent Mainboard: Asus Or Gigabyte without any on-board anything with as many expansion slots as possible of as may types as possible (ISA,PCI,AGP,PCIe,etc. ...) ... with a Traditional BIOS if still possible. None of this EFI crap. Phoenix or better. Processor: I used to say a$300 Intel processor with a solid QA record, though now I'm tempted to say a $170 AMD processor with a solid QA record. Boxed with fan. Chassis fan(s): Solid ball bearing fans - should run about$20 each.

Hard Disk: Western Digital - $150-300 depending on required capacity. Optical drive: I used to say SCSI Yamaha or Plextor @ about$600, but these devices are effectively disposable now, I suggest a $70 Sony DVD burner. Optical Drive 2: Again disposable these days... look for cheap and quiet. Floppy (yes, a floppy drive): Panasonic -$40.

Modem (yes a modem): a USR 56K full hardware modem. (the kind that can answer the phone)

A serial IO board if not provided in the mainbord. IOTech?

Memory: Kingston or better to fit the mainboard. (but not the bogus super memory crap)

Video: Matrox Parhelia (yes, Matrox - they simply are the best - but don't expect to run the latest games designed to sell NVIDIA cards), You see, Matrox has a history of providing real open source drivers for Linux and "just working" on any OS.

Network: D-link 100Mbit. Gigbit only makes sense if you invest in a gigabit switch for your lan and actually have the need to transfer hundreds of GB over the network.

Internet connection: Motorola Surfboard Cable modem. Network interface. Nothing less.

Router: Linksys. Wired. (I'd say D-link but their port range forwarding is still lacking)

Keyboard: Keytronics 104 (indestructible) or an old IBM clickety-clack (also indestructible) with an AT->PS2 adapter.

Mouse: Logitech three button wheel mouse (DO NOT install the drivers).

Monitor: Philips CRT.

Um what's left? I imagine I'm a little out of date, but this is still the construction philosophy I would apply. None of this N-force chipset stuff. I want everything in the machine to be made by a manufacturer that specifically makes those parts and has been doing so for more than 10 years.

But it is a bunch of work running around to get all the parts then building it, when I can just go grab a machine on sale for a few hundred bucks that will probably do everything I need.

But if you custom build with this philosophy, you will find that your computer can run just about any OS out there. I had five operating systems on that old PIII system at one point.

Well powerman PSU = garbage, I wouldnt go there, ASUS has fallen off in credibilty and build quality recently. You wont get a matrox parhphilla working on any new computer they where never ported to PCIe, matrox has newer card out, but nvidia has come light years in there linux drivers, and is the top recomended linux card, also has the advantage of having a GPPU (General purpose processing unit). I can tell you have been out of the game awhile. 130 dollar hard drive will buy 1.5tb of diskspace, a 320gb now goes for around 60 bucks.

The main problem with OEM systems is the PSU wiring pattern for the 24pin is non standard and usally 300-350W so adding a video card is almost useless, unless you go with a smaller company, E-Machines, Dell and HP use non stanard 24pin wiring. Also the boards in most OEM box's tend to be PC Chips or ECS boards, meaning realibilty is always in question. Then also comes to mind the bloatware installed on to it and the questionable cooling system

#### Khalee1

• Lt. Commander
• Posts: 1737
##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2009, 04:14:32 pm »
I used to build my own. (Philosophy: buy parts from manufacturers that specialise in those parts.) My old mid-line self built PIII system out-performed many pre-built P4 systems built up to eight years later.

However now with multi-core processors and huge amounts of memory and insane bus speeds it all doesn't matter so much anymore. Particularly if you buy last years pre-built model on sale. (e.g. this Toshiba Satellite L300D I got for $400 or the Compaq Presario sr5648f I got for$550 that canada-east.ca runs on - both systems came complete - monitor, keyboard etc.)

That said, if I were to build my own today I would probably follow the same philosophy I used to. It would likely cost about twice as much as last years pre-built on sale but would likely last twice as long.)

Case: InWin Full Tower or equivalent

Power Supply: Powerman >=450W or equivalent  Would'nt more power be better like 500 to maybe a750 or 1000w

Mainboard: Asus Or Gigabyte without any on-board anything with as many expansion slots as possible of as may types as possible (ISA,PCI,AGP,PCIe,etc. ...) ... with a Traditional BIOS if still possible. None of this EFI crap. Phoenix or better. Had both boards with my last two computers last one was a Gigabyte. And whats EFI

Processor: I used to say a $300 Intel processor with a solid QA record, though now I'm tempted to say a$170 AMD processor with a solid QA record. Boxed with fan.

Chassis fan(s): Solid ball bearing fans - should run about $20 each. Like how many with a full tower case Hard Disk: Western Digital -$150-300 depending on required capacity. only way to go

Optical drive: I used to say SCSI Yamaha or Plextor @ about $600, but these devices are effectively disposable now, I suggest a$70 Sony DVD burner.

Optical Drive 2: Again disposable these days... look for cheap and quiet. what about blueray drives

Floppy (yes, a floppy drive): Panasonic - $40. ok internal or external Modem (yes a modem): a USR 56K full hardware modem. (the kind that can answer the phone) Again internal or ex A serial IO board if not provided in the mainbord. IOTech? have no Idea what this is Memory: Kingston or better to fit the mainboard. (but not the bogus super memory crap) but which ones ddr2 or 3 I'm still looking min 8 gigs max maybe 12 Video: Matrox Parhelia (yes, Matrox - they simply are the best - but don't expect to run the latest games designed to sell NVIDIA cards), You see, Matrox has a history of providing real open source drivers for Linux and "just working" on any OS. how good are they with rendering and what min size would I need for it. Network: D-link 100Mbit. Gigbit only makes sense if you invest in a gigabit switch for your lan and actually have the need to transfer hundreds of GB over the network. Have no idea what this is and Do I really need one Internet connection: Motorola Surfboard Cable modem. Network interface. Nothing less. Why not the wireless stuff Router: Linksys. Wired. (I'd say D-link but their port range forwarding is still lacking) For what I want to do why a router Keyboard: Keytronics 104 (indestructible) or an old IBM clickety-clack (also indestructible) with an AT->PS2 adapter. Mouse: Logitech three button wheel mouse (DO NOT install the drivers). Trac ball all the way Monitor: Philips CRT. Um what's left? I imagine I'm a little out of date, but this is still the construction philosophy I would apply. None of this N-force chipset stuff. I want everything in the machine to be made by a manufacturer that specifically makes those parts and has been doing so for more than 10 years. But it is a bunch of work running around to get all the parts then building it, when I can just go grab a machine on sale for a few hundred bucks that will probably do everything I need. But if you custom build with this philosophy, you will find that your computer can run just about any OS out there. I had five operating systems on that old PIII system at one point. #### Bonk • Commodore • Posts: 13298 • You don't have to live like a refugee. ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #63 on: September 20, 2009, 04:17:24 pm » I can tell you have been out of the game awhile. Yup, part of why I bought pre-built. Then also comes to mind the bloatware installed on to it... Bingo! Biggest strike against pre-built. It took me literally weeks to strip all the crap off these two machines. Probably would have been less work to get up-to-date and build my own. #### Bonk • Commodore • Posts: 13298 • You don't have to live like a refugee. ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #64 on: September 20, 2009, 04:48:40 pm » Quote Would'nt more power be better like 500 to maybe a750 or 1000w Proabably, depending on how much stuff you cram in there. Note candle's comments on the power supply manufacturer as well. Now that I think about it that Powerman did fail on me. Quote And whats EFI Extensible Firmware Interface. BIOS should be on a chip, not a hidden partition on the disk. A computer should be able to boot without a hard disk. (Floppy, Optical, Network...) Quote Chassis fan(s): Solid ball bearing fans - should run about$20 each. Like how many with a full tower case

Normally just one, in addition to the one in the power supply. Again, depends on how much stuff you pile in there. Put a RAID array in and you might want two. Or one of those front panel ones, right in front of the array.

Quote
Floppy (yes, a floppy drive): Panasonic - $40. ok internal or extern Internal. (do mainboards still have floppy IDE headers?) Quote Optical Drive 2: Again disposable these days... look for cheap and quiet. what about blueray drives I suppose. I'd wait a while before putting one in though. Don't see much use for it other than watching movies unless it's a burner, whcih will probably cost a mint. I'd give blu-ray at least another two years before buying in. Quote Modem (yes a modem): a USR 56K full hardware modem. (the kind that can answer the phone) Again internal or ex Either. Internal is preferred, though RS232 serial external is fine. (not USB) Must be a full hardware modem to be of any use. May require serial I/O board if none on mainboard. But, only get one if you have a use for it. (dial-up server, phone answering system...) Quote Memory: Kingston or better to fit the mainboard. (but not the bogus super memory crap) but which ones ddr2 or 3 I'm still looking min 8 gigs max maybe 12 Probably ddr3 if you want 8gigs, as you will be going with a 64bit processor, OS and applications in order to make use of that much memory. But it really depends on your mainboard specs. Quote Video: Matrox Parhelia (yes, Matrox - they simply are the best - but don't expect to run the latest games designed to sell NVIDIA cards), You see, Matrox has a history of providing real open source drivers for Linux and "just working" on any OS. how good are they with rendering and what min size would I need for it. Excel at rendering. 2D accuracy is Matrox's speciality. Min size? Color accuracy is unsurpassed. Note candle's remarks however, they have newer PCIe models. Note NVIDIA Linux drivers are proprietary/restricted. Quote Network: D-link 100Mbit. Gigbit only makes sense if you invest in a gigabit switch for your lan and actually have the need to transfer hundreds of GB over the network. Have no idea what this is and Do I really need one Network Interface Card (NIC). You need one if your mainboard does not have one (which is good) and you want a LAN or High speed internet. If you are just going with a single PC with no network and no access to high speed, then the modem will do fine. Quote Internet connection: Motorola Surfboard Cable modem. Network interface. Nothing less. Why not the wireless stuff Wireless sucks. Period. Quote Router: Linksys. Wired. (I'd say D-link but their port range forwarding is still lacking) For what I want to do why a router Sorry, I didn't read your requirements. This was a general post on the subject. If you only have one computer then you don't really have the need for a router. If you have more than one computer and want to be able to access the internet from all of them then a router is the best solution. (56K modem routers are hard to find now, but the old 3com office-connect series was good) Quote Mouse: Logitech three button wheel mouse (DO NOT install the drivers). Trac ball all the way « Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 05:08:07 pm by Bonk » #### Dracho • Global Moderator • Rear Admiral • Posts: 18289 • Gender: ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #65 on: September 20, 2009, 06:11:23 pm » I run a quad core and an X2 video card. I burn up any power supply under 800w in 6 months. The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan. - Karl von Clausewitz #### Khalee1 • Lt. Commander • Posts: 1737 ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #66 on: September 20, 2009, 06:26:30 pm » for rendering is it the vid card or memory or both that desides on how fast it renders, also what would be a min size card to get for it 256 512 756 or maybe a 1024 size card. And what should I look for it terms of features on the card. #### candle_86 • The Old School • Lt. • Posts: 509 • Gender: • Position Gamma Hydra sector 10 ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #67 on: September 20, 2009, 06:31:56 pm » its dependant on what hardware your running as for your PSU wattage requirements. Someone running a Sempron 2gb of ram an 8400GS will do fine on 300W someone running a Phenom X4 965BE, GTX295 Quad SLI, and 8gb of ram will need 1kw of power. To little power supplied kills it from overstress, and to much power kills a PSU also, you want leeway upwards of 100-150W max, but not below at all. As for connectors boards no longer come with an FDD and some dont come with IDE anymore, and none come with two IDE controllers period #### candle_86 • The Old School • Lt. • Posts: 509 • Gender: • Position Gamma Hydra sector 10 ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #68 on: September 20, 2009, 06:32:51 pm » for rendering is it the vid card or memory or both that desides on how fast it renders, also what would be a min size card to get for it 256 512 756 or maybe a 1024 size card. And what should I look for it terms of features on the card. for rendering work, it depends what your rendering honestly. But id say 1gb Geforce 8800GT/9800GT minimum, with 4gb of Ram minimum and a quad core CPU #### Rod ONeal • D.Net Beta Tester • Commander • Posts: 3592 • Gender: ##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve « Reply #69 on: September 20, 2009, 11:55:28 pm » for rendering is it the vid card or memory or both that desides on how fast it renders, also what would be a min size card to get for it 256 512 756 or maybe a 1024 size card. And what should I look for it terms of features on the card. Depends on what "rendering" you are referring to. If you are talking about the final render, that's all on the CPU. If you're talking about editor rendering then that's the video card. I'd recommend minimum of 4gig (2 channel) to 6gig (3 channel) of RAM, and 1gig V RAM per GPU as the least you should go for if you are building a new machine for modeling. Doubling that, especially your system RAM. would be even better though. Minimum card, with the current cards, either NVidea GTS 250/9800GTX+ or ATI 4850. From what I've read, and nothing has been actually released yet, the new 5000 series ATI cards are going to destroy anything that's out now. Apparently though they are going to start at about$300.00 (USD).

Get the fastest quad core CPU you can and hyperthreading is big plus for final rendering speeds. AMD Phenom 2 X4 or Intel Core II quad are good processors and I wouldn't replace either of them yet if that's what your current system has. Buying new though I'd definately opt for Intel i7.
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#### candle_86

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2009, 01:09:22 pm »
the 5870 will cost 399, and will be able to tie a GTX295 not beat it which goes for 450 right now. Also I would go for cuda support as Maya and 3ds are supposed to implement Cuda support putting the render work on the GPU instead of the CPU which will make it hundreds of times faster

#### Rod ONeal

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2009, 04:52:13 pm »
Well, the exact performance isn't known yet. So, no point in debating that. I've seen more impressive figures where it beats it handily. I wasn't drawing any direct comparisons between models. There's also a 5850 which should be in the \$299 range. Again, the figures I've seen show it easily beating a 285. For the folks that "nothing is ever good enough for them" there's also going to be a 5870 X2.

The 200 series Nvidea and 4000 series ATI are old tech. No DX11 or Open CL support. If you already have one it's a fine card and you might as well hang on to it and wait to see what Nvidea comes out with in the next few months. I sure wouldn't go out and buy a 295 now. While there might be 3D aps out there that will render through your GPU using CUDA, I don't know of any. Any that I've used (and I haven't used every single one, but a lot) render through the CPU and use OGL in the editor viewer.
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#### candle_86

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2009, 06:38:46 pm »
well nvidia white papers report the next version of maya will and 3ds max 10 will also render via cuda, take a look at there white papers on companies there working with, also lightwave should already do it, but I havnt meet anyone that uses lightwave, im under the impression lightwave is more for the professionals

#### Rod ONeal

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2009, 07:37:28 pm »
Most hobbyists use max for some reason that I've never been able to figure out. If Max and Maya do it that will help it out a lot. From what I've read though OCL is going to be the way the industry is going to go. Nvidea, ATI, and Intel are supporting it rather than just Nvidea.

I'm curious why nobody has made even a separate renderer that supports CUDA?
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#### candle_86

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##### Re: buying pre made computers or build it yourselve
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2009, 07:44:06 pm »
because Cuda is a wider option of physx, game titles can run it already because they had years, Cuda didnt get activated till the GTX280 release, though the 8800GTX has support for it, it wasnt turned on till the GTX280. But the promise for it is undeniable though. F@H was one of the first to take advantage, and we say a 100fold increase in how fast calcuations are done.