Topic: Opinions wanted

[[UFP]Exeter]

Just a thought.  Would like opinions.

The Axanar project is a very cool video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W1_8IV8uhA

This has me thinking.  My goal of SFC4 is to have the subtitle of Fleet Command and have a much better fleet command UI etc.
So what i we make this in the era of the 4 year war with the ability to add the new class federation ships and the Klingon  D7?

The gme woul be heavily modable and easy to dd your own models, graphics etc.  I am thinking of how to enable modding of the rulesets also.  We could plan on keeping other races but setting it during the 4 years was I think would be cool.

I know it is non canon but so is much of SFB, but this gets this into its own, and we can also plan on future expansionas.  Also have Dyna as a place to request changes and discuss things.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Certainly a good place to start.  It basically fills a gap that we had in the timeline.  We have Enterprise, and then we have a nearly 100 year gap until TOS. Then we have TOS, which still isn't very well fleshed out.  Then TMP/Lost Era things start to get filled out pretty well at that point.  Finally TNG and beyond we actually have good fleet dynamics for everyone (except the Romulans).  The use of Axanar stuff would allow us to fill in the Pre-TOS gap, and flesh out the TOS era.

Now the question remains... can we get permission to use it?

[Tulwar]

You are describing the game I always wanted.  As far as asthetics of starship models go, I'm forever trapped in TMP era.  While blueprints for TOS D7 weapon layout was appropriate compared to TOS blueprints of the Big E, the Enterprise was improved for TMP, while the K'Tinga ceased to make sense to me.  Basing the game in the earlier era and making it fully modable would allow me to flesh out my own little fantasy fleets, as if I could rewrite the whole ST franchise.

Yeah, it's going into my own little world, but doesn't that sound like more fun than watching an Abram's film?

Then again, someone like Firesoul could simply mod that into another SFB based version.  That would be extremely cool, as well.

[[UFP]Exeter]

To start, will need starships that fiil the roster.

Permissions are not really need from what i can see other that the use of star trek.  Filling in the gap my be more amiable to CBS.

[knightstorm]

Well, Axinar does seem to contradict a few things from canon.  Late 22nd century to at least as late as the cage, the federation used Lasers.  Also, its established that TOS Enterprise was built in San Francisco.  Outside of that, I think the Axinar models look a bit too Abramsish.  In particular, they have that chromey iphone finish.

[Tulwar]

Well, Axinar does seem to contradict a few things from canon.  Late 22nd century to at least as late as the cage, the federation used Lasers.  Also, its established that TOS Enterprise was built in San Francisco.  Outside of that, I think the Axinar models look a bit too Abramsish.  In particular, they have that chromey iphone finish.

Actually, TOS Enterprise was built over San Francisco.  Still, Earth orbit is a long way from Axinar, so my correction is hypertechnical.  The laser/phaser thing can be glossed over.  As far as the models being too much like the JJ-Prize, you're exactly right.  Abram's Trek needs to die.

[knightstorm]

Well, Axinar does seem to contradict a few things from canon.  Late 22nd century to at least as late as the cage, the federation used Lasers.  Also, its established that TOS Enterprise was built in San Francisco.  Outside of that, I think the Axinar models look a bit too Abramsish.  In particular, they have that chromey iphone finish.

Actually, TOS Enterprise was built over San Francisco.

That's what I meant, but I guess I could have been clearer since Abrams has everyone convinced that the ship was built planetside in bumf*ck Iowa.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

We can do the models the way we want.

And the 4 year war was in the mid 23rd century so the weapons can be glossed over. 

[Tulwar]

Abrams....  Monopoly capitalism hits Hollywood.  A worthless hack movie-maker gets the rights to all the big franchises and slings garbage.  Then again, the Star Wars series collapsed into feature length toy commercials with Episode VI, so he can't mess that up.  I'm sure he won't improve it, either.

[knightstorm]

Lets just agree that we don't want ships that look like they were designed by Steve Jobs and leave it at that.

[JanB]

I actually think that on the outside the Abramish ships look better than those from TOS. The TOS-hull look wasn't even a conscious look. just the cheapest and fastest way to slap together some round and rectangular pieces of plastic. TOS ships always looked so vulnerable to me (the nacelle pylons of the Constitution class, the neck of the D7) and didn't look like they were made out of metal. Abramish weapon hardpoints are much more realistic as well (many weapons, large firing arcs, point defenses). Of course any new productions are going to look more like the Abramish look, TOS itself would've looked more liked that if they had had the budget and the visual effects technology...

On the inside Abramish ships do look too much like blinding Apple stores, then again the TOS sets were way too colorful and had no useful control panels, TMP had much better sets.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

The only question is if we can get models acceptable?

I can convert all else and have the current codebase modified this week.  I will keep the number of playable races the same just disable all but klingon/Federation.  They can still be modded in.

The ship classes we need are:
The Four Years War caused a military buildup between the Klingon Empire and Federation, resulting in numerous advances in starship technology. The following classes saw action in this conflict:

    Federation:
        Achernar-class • Baton Rouge-class • Constitution-class • Heston-class • Tikopai-class • Anton-class • Canopus-class • Apache-class • Larson-class • Marklin-class • Monoceros-class • Portsmith-class • Siva-class • Loknar-class • Fenlon-class • Bode-class • Hale-class • Hermes-class • Nelson-class • Sawyer-class • Chariot-class • Dollond-class • Kepler-class • Ptolemy-class • Cochrane-class • Aakenn-class • Liberty-class • Eagle-class • Cygnus-class

    Klingon
        D'aka-class • T'h'lar-class • D'ama-class • K't'agga-class • Z'gal-class • Riskadh-class • Kl'sarza-class • Death Rite-class • Kalath-class • Z'Mortama-class • Talat Kh'exesta-class • K'nel-class • Plen Zha-class • Koreba-class • Zha Mortas-class

I will go though the list and see what we have from sfc

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

I would have to see about the .MOD format, but milkshape has a .MOD plugin that works and I can read the milkshape format.

I will use what I have to continue and we can do model changes as we need them.  Already have a system to easily add/change models.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

right now I have  list that I posted in this thread that I am investigating to see if I have any of the models.

I will post that in the next few days.

[Captain Adam]

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[Bernard Guignard]

 I see some FASA ship names and Names from the Star trek Space Flight Chronology there.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Mostly Memory Beta and reading the books.  images for some of the classes and what class they are is in the wiki.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Will be dding more details and some images in the projects area, The Dunzel project.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3335.0.html

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

About 13 of the fed classes are combat vessels.  The klingons are of more concern.

Models have been of major concern for me, I may have to take up model mking     If I can get 4 models I can finish building and testing the game.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

That is my intent.  For mods and 2d graphics.

Also, people will gladly offer opinions for improvement then.

[JanB]

Starfleet is still in its infancy during the four year war and is supplemented by vulcan and andorian warships, the characters of axanar say as much tgemselves in the war documentary. It would be suitable to have only a handful of classes, supplemented with race-specific ships (vulcan abd andorian for the feds, perhaps nausicaan mercenaries for the klingons). Romulans should be playable ib conquest and skirmish modes.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Starfleet is still in its infancy during the four year war and is supplemented by vulcan and andorian warships, the characters of axanar say as much tgemselves in the war documentary. It would be suitable to have only a handful of classes, supplemented with race-specific ships (vulcan abd andorian for the feds, perhaps nausicaan mercenaries for the klingons). Romulans should be playable ib conquest and skirmish modes.

No. According to the prelude to Aanar vid, Starfleet ships were crewed by different races so the Klingons never knew who they were up against. Your statement is invalid. The Klingons would have known exactly who they were fighting if Vulcan and andorian ships were in the mix.

[[UFP]Exeter]

We only need to figure out tactics for different races. 

As for different races ship, the focus should be on Klingon and Federation ships and can add in Romulan later.  I will keep the game set for 8 playable races.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Some dditionl researh, the Acharnr class is based off the constitution, less advnced sensors, no research facilities, less powerful weapons.  Same with the Bonnommee Richard clas.

Same or the D6 similarity to the D7.

The novels the Four Years War will be guide ( volumes, 2 re done).  They are free.   http://www.stephenfender.com/

And this link i ship classes, names of ships and some details o thes ships.

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Four Years War is takes place roughly 80 years after the foundation of the Federation (2241)  Any race specific ships at this time would have been relegated to reserve and militia status.  They would all be nearly a century old, and worthless on the Klingon front.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I am reading the books, as there is better detail.  This provides linkage to James Kirk entrance to the academy and Pike getting the Enterprise.

It also provides some ships that are available, and some storyline.

I am thinking to use the books as he basis and the author has indicated they can be considered fan produced, nd the first 2 are free.  He is also got the project on Kickstarter.  I will send him a courtesy email.

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

I am reading the books, as there is better detail.  This provides linkage to James Kirk entrance to the academy and Pike getting the Enterprise.

It also provides some ships that are available, and some storyline.

I am thinking to use the books as he basis and the author has indicated they can be considered fan produced, nd the first 2 are free.  He is also got the project on Kickstarter.  I will send him a courtesy email.

I'd guess he'd be pretty receptive, based on the fact that he has used Starfleet Command models in the composition of the covers for his novels.

I'm sure that you are fully aware that his novels are based on the FASA Star Trek supplement The Four Years War.  I bring that up simply because you may be treading into FASA Copyright territory, and I'm not sure if that involves IP hell or not...

As I said, I'd think that Stephen will be pretty receptive though.

[JanB]

Starfleet is still in its infancy during the four year war and is supplemented by vulcan and andorian warships, the characters of axanar say as much tgemselves in the war documentary. It would be suitable to have only a handful of classes, supplemented with race-specific ships (vulcan abd andorian for the feds, perhaps nausicaan mercenaries for the klingons). Romulans should be playable ib conquest and skirmish modes.

No. According to the prelude to Aanar vid, Starfleet ships were crewed by different races so the Klingons never knew who they were up against. Your statement is invalid. The Klingons would have known exactly who they were fighting if Vulcan and andorian ships were in the mix.

You're right, I remembered that completely wrong. Still, I think it's safe to assume there wouldn't be 15 different starship classes on either side, at least not without counting freighters, troop transports and minor race allied ships. Late 24th century Starfleet may have an ungodly budget and number of shipyards, personnel, etc... so they can waste resources developing a new class for every niche role, but for the early 23rd century the standard 6 or 7 classes for Starfleet and the KDF would be better.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I'd guess he'd be pretty receptive, based on the fact that he has used Starfleet Command models in the composition of the covers for his novels.

I'm sure that you are fully aware that his novels are based on the FASA Star Trek supplement The Four Years War.  I bring that up simply because you may be treading into FASA Copyright territory, and I'm not sure if that involves IP hell or not...

As I said, I'd think that Stephen will be pretty receptive though.
[/quote]

I tend to email both, but only use the idea and then story from the book.  I will email both and ask.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Starfleet is still in its infancy during the four year war and is supplemented by vulcan and andorian warships, the characters of axanar say as much tgemselves in the war documentary. It would be suitable to have only a handful of classes, supplemented with race-specific ships (vulcan abd andorian for the feds, perhaps nausicaan mercenaries for the klingons). Romulans should be playable ib conquest and skirmish modes.

No. According to the prelude to Aanar vid, Starfleet ships were crewed by different races so the Klingons never knew who they were up against. Your statement is invalid. The Klingons would have known exactly who they were fighting if Vulcan and andorian ships were in the mix.

You're right, I remembered that completely wrong. Still, I think it's safe to assume there wouldn't be 15 different starship classes on either side, at least not without counting freighters, troop transports and minor race allied ships. Late 24th century Starfleet may have an ungodly budget and number of shipyards, personnel, etc... so they can waste resources developing a new class for every niche role, but for the early 23rd century the standard 6 or 7 classes for Starfleet and the KDF would be better.

A small number of models is a good idea.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

What alwys gor me was DS 9.  The way it ended was stupid.  What now,  The federation did not stop. 

Based on episodes the founders hd been infiltrating for decades, now hat?

[knightstorm]

Based on episodes the founders hd been infiltrating for decades, now hat?

No they weren't.  The founders only found out about the existence of the federation after the wormhole was discovered seven years earlier.  They couldn't have been infiltrating for decades.  One thing I do think they dropped the ball on was what they could have done with Sisko's ending.  He told Cassidy that his life was non-linear, and that he could show up again at any time past, present, or future. That would have been the perfect setup for a guest appearance on Enterprise.

[Captain Adam]

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[[UFP]Exeter]

A couple questions:

What is movement point ratio?

What is combat efficiency used for?

They may be earlier than ADB.

And what is a shield point ratio

[TarMinyatur]

What is movement point ratio?

...

...

They may be earlier than ADB.

Speed = Momentum / Mass

Arbitrary assignments of mass (i.e. "movement point ratio"):
Heavy Cruiser = 1
Destroyer = 0.5

If a speed of 10 is desired, the Heavy Cruiser must apply 10 momentum units.
If a speed of 10 is desired, the Destroyer must apply 5 momentum units.

We can arbitrarily define a momentum unit as one Warp engine unit (out of 30 on a CA) or one Dilithium unit (out of 15 on a DD).

These ideas are from well before ADB or computers. I believe Newton described them a long time ago.

Momentum = Velocity * Mass

...which can be rearranged to...

Velocity = Momentum/Mass

The Chinese and Mayans may have known this 5000 years ago.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Thanks, the physics I understand, it tells me to just assigh an actual mass to the ships as my physics engine understands mass.

[TarMinyatur]

Yeah. The idea is that a Destroyer has less mass than a Heavy Cruiser. If both ships apply an identical force of 1 unit, the Destroyer will accelerate faster than the Heavy Cruiser.

force = mass * acceleration

But board games don't deal with acceleration smoothly. They use chunks of psuedo-acceleration instead. Thus on turn #1 you can go from motionless to, let's say, a speed of 10 instantly. On turn #2, you can jump to speed 20. On turn #3, you can reach top speed. It is easier to use three steps of momentum than true acceleration.

As long as the force of one unit of dilithium crystal (or hampster wheel) is the same on all ships, it should work.

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

OK you are using terms from FASA's Star Trek Starship Combat Simulator.

So I'll tackle them one by one...

A couple questions:

Q: What is movement point ratio?
A: This is the total amount of energy required to move one hex in a combat phase/turn..  Larger vessels generally have higher ratios (5/1 or higher  is generally used by battleship sized vessels, cruisers typically have 4/1 or 3/1, small vessels can have 2/1, 1/1 and  if I remember right even less than 1/1 in rare cases).

Q: What is combat efficiency used for?
A: This is an arbitrary rating determined based on the weapons, etc. a ship is mounting, used to compare versus other vessels r.e. combat effectiveness.  It has no ingame function, and is similar to how BPV (Basic Point Value) is used in SFB/SFC.

They may be earlier than ADB.

Q: And what is a shield point ratio
A: This is the number of shield points added to a shield facing per point of power.  So if you have  a shield ratio of 1/3, every point of power nets 3 shield strength.  Total weapon damage is reduced by the facing shield strength when a volley strikes a vessel.  You'll also note a "Maximum Shield Rating" or some such is also referenced, this is the maximum shield strength for any given facing.  Shield points are distributed among the six shields, keeping the max rating in mind.  The TMP era Enterprise has a 1/4 ratio and a 16 max strength, so you'd need  24 power to boost all six shields to 16 each.
I implemented a house rule where the max shield strength was the max POWER that could be applied to a facing, in which case the Enterprise could generate 64 shield points in a given direction, if 16 power was assigned to that facing.  this change made combat feel more like what you see in the original series, etc.

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

If you want to peruse the FASA Starship Tactical Combat Simulator  material (assuming you don't have it already), here are a couple of useful links:

http://home.comcast.net/~ststcsolda/
I've used this link as a reference for a while.

http://www.tacticalstarshipcombat.com/FASA/STSTCS%20Home%20Page.htm
This link is new to me, but looks to be a very well designed website.

This page has a bunch of links to things, some you may find useful:
http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/xon/

Here's a link to a fan made computer game version of the Tactical Combat Simulator:
http://ststcs.slightlysilly.com/

[[UFP]Exeter]

Thanks for the information.  I had none of the FASA stuff