Topic: SFC3 subsystem targeting (Read 17349 times)

Whiplash · « **on:** January 20, 2003, 09:42:31 am »

What do you target? So far, I've only found warp core to be effective. It seems to reduce the enemy's power enough to make it worthwhile.

Do you target or not, and what? Also, what effect do you see from doing so?

W.

Credo Narth · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:49:37 am »

Kinda depends. A few times, I've ended up being tractored by someone with a stronger tractor than mine. Sometimes this doesn't matter, but if they're in a warbird, and I'm in a defiant, then you can get into deep doo doo very quickly. In this case, I target and H&R his tractor ASAP.

Other than that, it's mainly warp core and impulse engines. It's easier to board them (for extra prestige) when they've got no power and no speed.

Aldaron · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2003, 10:34:54 am »

I haven't played in weeks but warp core is the main target. I mean once they have no power they can't do a damn thing but run so it's easy to take them apart at leisure. This is one reason I don't like SFC3 and subsytem targeting. It sounds like a neat feature but in practice it just unbalances the game.

Robb Stark · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2003, 12:53:31 pm »

Interesting. I've seen this to be the case as well - the Warp Core and sometimes the Tractors are the only systems really worth targeting.

I think the problem is that the other systems are too durable. For example, a single Quantum Torp launcher has 40 health. You have to really hammer that thing to destroy it. I realize that damaging it is supposed to reduce its effectiveness (so if it's down to 20 health, it's only at 50% strength... or at least I THINK tha'ts how it's supposed to work), but it still seems like it's an awfully long haul to take one system down.

This is especially true since sub-system targetting reduces your accuracy, and not all the damage from your weapon hit seems to go to the subsystem in question. I love the concept, but I think the implementation would really be helped by reducing the health of most subsystems.

Aldaron · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2003, 02:59:16 pm »

Raise the health of critical systems (warp core, impulse, maybe cloak, etc) and lower the other systems. This would put more emphasis on taking out weapons, tractors and transporters as opposed to the warp core which essentially takes out everything including shields.

ghostcamel · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2003, 05:31:17 pm »

Quote:

Raise the health of critical systems (warp core, impulse, maybe cloak, etc) and lower the other systems. This would put more emphasis on taking out weapons, tractors and transporters as opposed to the warp core which essentially takes out everything including shields.

That would be good, and perhaps bring back how phasers(primaries?) could only be damaged from certain arcs. I liked the positional aspect that really came to fruit after a few patches and DAC revisions.

Corbomite · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2003, 05:44:40 pm »

Wouldn't it be easier just to lower the overall damage done to subsystems when targeted? IMO you should only get 1/3 of the total computed damage when hitting a subsystem exclusively. It also seems a shame that Taldren put so much work into a combat system that people only use about 1/10 of i.e. everyone usually goes for the warp core and nothing else. Seems to me they could have saved themselves a lot of work and just let you target the warpcore.

ghostcamel · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2003, 05:59:46 pm »

Yep its pretty pointless as is.

Aves · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:05:03 pm »

While the warp core is a great choice, if I'm flying a craft with AMMs I always go after the Impulse engines. And I often target them even if I don't have them.

This makes it easy to stay in a weak arc or even a blind spot for the rest of the battle, I just keep firing enough shots into the Impulse engine to make them immobile and then take my time with the rest...

IMHO the impulse engine is a BETTER choice (except against Borg) than the Warp Core, esp with AMMs

Whiplash · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:27:06 pm »

Have you seen ships actually slow down significantly when you target the impulse engines? I went through a string og 6+ battles where I exclusively target impulse on some small ships, and they never slowed down at all until the blew up. I'm not convinced it works.

W.

Whiplash · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:30:26 pm »

Hey Aldaron, does your moniker come from a book or game or something? Perhaps a decade ago I was running a role-playing game and one of the players chose to name his character "Aldaron Stormclimber"...

W.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:31:10 pm »

Against the AI, I've managed to reduce my enemy's speed from 26 to 16. I think it was more significant than that since the shhip originally had great manuverabilty (implying it was going at half impulse) and when the warp core was grey, it could barely turn.

Vortox · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:43:19 pm »

IMO there is only 3 major systems that worth any targetting at all. The Warp Core, Impulse Engine, and Tractor Beam. LOL Maybe they should just make the game with only this 3 subsystem...hahaha...lol

theRomulan · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:44:35 pm »

While your advice about the impulse engines is certainly a valid and clever idea, my point is that those very major systems are the only ones worth targetting right now. Also, damaging subsystems usually REQUIRES an alpha strike. I feel subsystem damage has been lacking in the last two games. SFC2 right now has it more than SFC3, but the double internals thing kind of weakens the effectiveness of some weapons, like photons. However, SFC2 is as good as it can be in my opinion, but SFC3 seems like it can take the subsystem damage thing to a whole new height.

Right now, impulse enginges, warp core, the tractor beam, and the cloak are the systems that people most want to hit. In my opinion, they are major systems, and should probably require that you slam them with alpha strikes, etc. However, the smaller systems, like weapons, require almost the same amount of power to stun or destroy. In SFC2, and i'm not trying to glorify the old system, mizia strikes had a pretty good effect on systems. If people laid the phaser shots down on me one at a time, i would witness many of my weapons randomly getting knocked out according to the arc. IT was good, I appreciated seeing my weapons getting damaged in the process. In SFC3, targetting the hull will usually get you stun affect on weapons after penetrating the armor, but when you actually target a weapon system, it seems like only an alpha strike will provide you with the results that you need. In the other games, I would get mizia attacked, even with my armor, and witness 3 of my phasers get knocked out. I enjoyed this, as it force me to decide how I would I repair things... do I want weapons first or do I want to fix the engines. SFC3 has this only to a certain extent. I can target certain weapons at will, but knocking them out requires all of my firepower in one shunt... and knocking out one weapon at a time is not very effective, especially if I have to commit all of my fire power into it. I might as well have just taken out the vital systems like impulse or warp core.

As it stands, I have found that it's actually easier to damage warp than it is to slow down opponents through the impulse enginges. SFC3 is seeing a lot of ship variants that move very fast. The Federation Intrepid class is an example of this. My brother usually loads out his ship with light phaser banks all around, photons in the front, and a quantum in the back, level 5 shields, and what not. He can fight with all of his weapons and travel at a speed of 60 constantly. this isn't so bad, but i could effectively slow him down using mizia strikes after i've weakened his shields, it would help a lot. I like to fly a k'tinga, despite the bad arcs. I actually like the arcs, they are very effective for giving the ship circular defense, however; because mizia strikes aren't so effective in this game, the k'tinga and the fek'lhr are considered weak. In fact, any ship with arcs that aren't pointed foward to provide alpha strike crunch are considered weak right now. I don't think it's the arcs that are hurting their power, it's the fact that shields and armor in this game are extremely difficult to penetrate with anything except a heavy alpha. I don't know if the patch will address the defensive power that many ships have in this game, but I hope Taldren will read this post in some way, or are already on their way to considering this issue. I feel ships like the k'tinga will be more favorable to fly, despite the low space and usual low speeds they will have compared to other ships, if mizia attack became more 'functional'.

I feel that if subsystems like the weapons were easily (yes, I said easily) stunned and destroyed, it would bring back a flavor of having to pilot well, and also allow us to knock out the opponents sometimes superior firepower out without having to use tremendous firepower ourselves. AS of now, I don't select a tachyon beam as a weapon because I know that I practically NEED all heavy firepower I can get to bring an enemy down. I don't have time to think about disabling warp, I need to crunch through their shields. If I could knock out several weapon systems more easily, then carrying around special tools like a tachyon beam would actually be useful. Anyway, that's my rant. I just wonder if Taldren is addressing any issues like this, I always have the deepest respect for their dedication to making the games better.

Deviak · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:45:02 pm »

actually Whip, it does work. However, I don't know why it hardly seems to have an effect in MP..One thing I did was to test this in Skirmish with my Intrepid and a Marauder, later did the same for a BoP. I realized that it had a delayed effect. If I fired at it till it was yellow, it didn't seem to have an effect, but I kept watching the speed counter. After a while, the speed of both the BoP and Marauder dropped and stayed at a constant lowered speed. Yeh I had them tractored to focus on the speed counter. I hit it again in the red and later destroyed it. They were still flying at that constant speed and a while later probably about 23 seconds or so, it started dropping bit by bit and then finally dropped to 0.

I believe the same thing should happen in MP but it's just delayed. Plus when those guys see their impulse is being hit they probably immeadiately start repairing and makes it seem that they had no effect whatsoever. Btw, you just can't help but keep at SFC 3 with these "debates" huh.

Vysander · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:46:56 pm »

I shoot at the impulse engines of those annoying pirate ships on planet missions.... i'm in a big slow sphere prime and those annoying things keep running from me (it's either that or charge up a tractor beam.. I usually snag one with a beam and just let my beam blow them up while I chase down another one)

I hate those things that fly out to range 30 before they decide to finally turn around and come back for another pass

Whiplash · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2003, 10:38:57 pm »

Actually, Deviak, I didn't have an ulterior motive for this post. It doesn't really say anything bad about SFC3, does it? I mean, sure, maybe the subsystem targeting can be tweaked to be more fun and useful, but I've made no good or bad references at all. And not compared it to SFC2 either. But I will now.

In SFC2, when your ship blew up, it felt like it was a burning wreck due to all the systems it had lost. In SFC3, ships feel much more whole and complete until their warp core breaches. I don't really care for this. Surprised?

However, I was only asking to get information. I play SFC3 maybe only once every 2 weeks now. Still, I want to expand my knowledge base and find out what are the good tactics. In SFC2, you can't target subsystems at all. This is appropriate and desirable for a game based on SFB. For SFC3, I like the subsystem targeting because I have no preconceived standard of what the game should be. I use warp core targeting. I tried impulse targeting but didn't get good results. That is not a slam against SFC3. I wanted to find out if there was an important system I was missing out on.

If you miss my SFC3-basing posts, just say the word. I can probably oblige.

W.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:06:14 am »

If you're a cloaking race, do yourself a favor and target your enemy's Sensors. It gives you a possibility of killing his Ops (or whichever one is in charge of anti-cloak) Officer off, and damaging the sensor itself, reducing the range and chance he's going to detect you.

Personally, I consider targeting the Warp Core a cheat. It is far too easy and far too devastating. In a future patch it would be nice to see Warp Cores that are a pain to take out.

Impulse engines are a good pick, especially if your opponent is faster than you. I target this in leiu of the Warp Core. Also, it give you a chance to kill of their Engineer. Do that, and they're power drops a lot.

Targeting subsystems, I've found isn't that hard at all. I usually equip my ships with rear, fast charging weapons specifically so that I can pick systems off as my oppenent is chasing me. Persistence pays when knocking systems out, and remember they can be reapaired a limited number of times, so you're going to see a targeted system come back to green a few times before it's truly gone (depending on whether your opponent decides to spend spare parts on it). Alpha strikes are certainly not required if you know what you're doing to take systems out.

theRomulan · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2003, 08:40:59 am »

I'm certainly not experiencing the same results as you are then. So far, I have literally had to pound the crap out a system in order to finally knock it out... and I KNOW that I took out the armor, shileds, etc. This is when I have flown klingon, using disruptors and the like. I have not been able to effectively fire one disruptor at a time to stun or damage any system. I had to alpha strike.

When I fly romulan, which I like most, I can knock out systems pretty easily, but tha'ts because one shot of plasma is a whole lot of damage. I don't have to fire everthing. But when I go disruptors only, one distruptor will not do the trick. I usually have to overload disruptor 1's or 2's in order to get a desired effect, meaning that my fight to take out multiple systems will take more time than I actually have to hurt the person significantly. He just faces the other shield at me and alpha strikes. Well, whatever, I'll just keep giving mizia a try. I'm just suggesting that the 'wrecked ship' effect of sfc2 is missing in sfc3, and while the games are certainly supposed to be different, I can swear that a lot of times a person's ship is destroyed, but right before that he still had the power to fire weapons, go full impulse, and use the warp drive. the only real disadvantage he was in was that he he had to repari his ship three or four times, and now his shields are down. Otherwise, he's an intact ship. At least it seems that way to me.

matyoung · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2003, 09:28:08 am »

If u constantly target one subsystem they only need to repair that one but if u say hit&run with your transporters say warpcore and then use your primary weapons (i say primary as they seem to be most effective at sub system targeting rather than the heavies) to target their impulse or my fav to hit the all round arc weapons (which in it self might knock out the tactical officer for the duration of the battle) then this will force your opponent to concentrate on repairing 2 systems i have had many pvp battles using this tactic and i honestly find this more effective than concentrating on one system..

"Go to red alert kryton"

"Are you sure sir it does mean changin the green blub to a red one"

SpiralArchitech

Firestorm · « **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:50:56 pm »

I think it does make some sense to split out the warp core(power supply) and the warp engines. The warp engines should be relatively easy to take out like about same as it is now. But, the warp core should be much tougher! Maybe even have the warp core only taken out by hit&runs, but not by targeting subsystems for weapons fire.

Whiplash · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2003, 06:02:28 pm »

Firestorm, are you talking about separating the ability to target your power and ability to go to warp? If the warp engines fail, it only means you can't go to warp? Does warping happen at slower speeds as your engines become damaged?

W.

32nd Halcyon · « **Reply #28 on:** January 21, 2003, 11:32:34 pm »

This sounds reasonable. however, Do you remeber the episode with the captain that comes into the future causing a loop in time? Basically we the viewer watched the Enterprise explode due to a nacelle strike. Wouldn't that make hitting the Nacelles a primary target? Just a thought. For most races the nacelles are right out in the open. I've noticed that when attacking the warp engines the total power imput is degraded. This of course would mean there is less power contributed to primary/secondary weapons. Thus making them less powerful. As stated before in many posts the speed of a ship is related to the impulse engines. I don't remember being able to target thrusters, wouldn't that make more interesting if your ship lost manueverablity?

Just some ponderings.

Hal ]

ragamer · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2003, 06:40:47 am »

Well I think that the actual subsystem targeting is bad balanced. The reason is simple:

It takes roughly the same time to destroy an enemy targeting its subsystems or its hull.
If the targeted system is the warp core it happens that the time needed to destroy it is
much short, why?. Consider this example:
Suppouse that you and your enemy are fresh (shields up, hull intact), but your enemy is
aiming at your hull and you are aiming at his warp core (even with his shields full). Well
the combat flows and as soon as you do an alpha on him, and some damage enters, ALL his shields
will start droping (based on the condition of the warp core), so in the next attacks it is more
probable that some damage enter again, because ALL shields are weakened. Meanwhile your enemy
is aiming at your hull, so he's spreading his damage beetween ALL your shields (if you have
minimum skill to 'soak' it). So at the end he will eventually lose all his shields and you are
doing internal damage on EACH shot.
If you want to do the test... Try skirmishes against the AI and write down the time needed
to destroy your enemy (fully destroy... BLAM!!!).

On top of that if you start to analyze the condition of your ship after the kill... You will
see even more advantages on subsystem targeting.

To balance this, the numbers and the effects of system targeting should not substitute the
effect of Hull targeting... The TOTAL destruction of the ship.

Firestorm · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2003, 07:19:43 am »

I agree to the point that the way a ship is usually destroyed doesn't make much sense.

Usually, as you say, you take out the warp core first. This keeps your opponent from returning fire, and he can't warp away from you.

Then you go after his hull, and you can move in close because you won't be fired upon.

Most of the time I see ships exploding with all of their weapons still in tact, the only real damage is warp core and hull.

It just doesn't seem quite right?!?!?!?

Whiplash · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2003, 09:31:22 am »

I'll agree with that, but then again, we see some very contrary events in Nemesis. The Scimitar took out the BigE's warp core on the first pass, and they fought rather effectively from then on, and their ship hadn't really taken that much of a beating by the time the warp core was gone.

Basically, you just can't know whats "true" to Star Trek because each writer has his own version of the truth.

Maybe its like the Bible. One Bible. Many interpretations.

W.

NJAntman · « **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2003, 11:43:16 am »

Most fan-fic stories and models seem to place the warp core buried internally and the warp nacelles hanging out in the open. My interpretation of the twisted canon of Trek is that the real power (and danger) is the core and the nacelles just feed off the power to push plasma around. Damaging or even destroying a nacelle should only effect your ability to warp (as long as the impact and flying plasma doesn't twist the ship to shreds), not your ability to power systems.

I vote for splitting the Warp Core from the Nacelles. Besides, shouldn't targeting a big structure like nacelle be a hell of lot easier than trying to hit something buried deep within the vessel?

Maybe in the next patch (after the current wayward patch)?

ragamer · « **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2003, 01:04:24 pm »

K, I'm going to try to be constructive. This system could work, but I have to assume a couple of things:

HUHP: Are the hull hit points.
COHP: Are the hit points of each component (that may differ beetween components).
CTHP: The sum of each component COHP.
WDAM: The amount of HP that a weapon do to the ship (they are efective)

I will assume that HUHP = CTHP. Well, in this system, A non aimed shot will do WDAM to the HUHP and WDAM/2 to a random component's COHP (You can even scale this by a percentage, representing that not all Hull Aimed shots can damage a system). An aimed shot will do WDAM/2 to the AIMED system's COHP and WDAM/2 to the HUHP.

Now the effects of damage. First of all they have to be inversely proportional to the amount of COHP left, and they could be:
- Weapon: Decrease in Damage. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Impulse: Decrease in Speed and Turning Rate. Range: 100% - 10% (minimum is 10% of FULL operational capacity).
- Sensors: Decrease in Range of detection. Range: 100% - 10%.
- Tractors: Decrease in Strength. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Transporters: Decrease in number. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Cloak: Decrease in cloaking capability. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Shuttle Bay: Increase in loading and ready time. Range: 100% - 0% (in this case the inverse of the operative percentage is multiplied by the standard time to obtain the actual ready time. If a shutle bay with 50 HP has sustained 40 Damage, 50-40 = 10 COHP left, then the actual time will be 50/10 = 5 times the normal time. a 0% condition means no readying posible).
- Armor: By definition untargetable.
- Warp Core. Well really this system should be divided into Warp Engine (allow warp speed) and Warp Reactor (produces power). For Warp Engine the operational range: 100% - 0%, and for the Warp Reactor: 100% - 50%. The explanation is that if the warp reactor is inside the Hull you can only try to hit external features like exhaustion ports, power channels and the like.

To make things more interesting, you can add more complications like certain components can only be hitted from specific arcs (which make a lot of sense) and if you are trying to hit them from wrong arcs, you obtain a standard hull hit (your weapons officer should know if the component is reacheable or not).

32nd Halcyon · « **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2003, 02:38:37 pm »

Thats a good point there. This would make this a much more "realisticly tactical" game. I suppose the proper way of differnciating between the warp engine and speed producing warp could be the components like the nacelles. This would effectively mean we are targeting a sub system of a major system required for propulsion & pwr. I'm not sure Taldren would introduce that in a patch. It would bring something more to the game but would it be marginally better? I've been warp raped before, I know what it's like to play a game a fencing as such.

kitten · « **Reply #37 on:** January 22, 2003, 10:04:50 pm »

i've found the game more enjoyable when you reduce the number of 'hitpoints' the weapon subsystems have.

Vortox · « **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:11:36 am »

This sure going to continue on....lol There is just so many things...that could use a little tweaks here and there...

CmdrK · « **Reply #39 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:37:41 pm »

For an idea, maybe damage shouldn't be allocated to a targeted warp core until, say, at least 1/3 of the hull is damaged. This would reflect to some degree the weakening of the ships hull and exposure of the core.

I also like the idea of seperate core and warp engines.

Whiplash · « **Reply #40 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:42:31 am »

What do you target? So far, I've only found warp core to be effective. It seems to reduce the enemy's power enough to make it worthwhile.

Do you target or not, and what? Also, what effect do you see from doing so?

W.

Credo Narth · « **Reply #41 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:49:37 am »

Kinda depends. A few times, I've ended up being tractored by someone with a stronger tractor than mine. Sometimes this doesn't matter, but if they're in a warbird, and I'm in a defiant, then you can get into deep doo doo very quickly. In this case, I target and H&R his tractor ASAP.

Other than that, it's mainly warp core and impulse engines. It's easier to board them (for extra prestige) when they've got no power and no speed.

Aldaron · « **Reply #42 on:** January 20, 2003, 10:34:54 am »

I haven't played in weeks but warp core is the main target. I mean once they have no power they can't do a damn thing but run so it's easy to take them apart at leisure. This is one reason I don't like SFC3 and subsytem targeting. It sounds like a neat feature but in practice it just unbalances the game.

Robb Stark · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2003, 12:53:31 pm »

Interesting. I've seen this to be the case as well - the Warp Core and sometimes the Tractors are the only systems really worth targeting.

I think the problem is that the other systems are too durable. For example, a single Quantum Torp launcher has 40 health. You have to really hammer that thing to destroy it. I realize that damaging it is supposed to reduce its effectiveness (so if it's down to 20 health, it's only at 50% strength... or at least I THINK tha'ts how it's supposed to work), but it still seems like it's an awfully long haul to take one system down.

This is especially true since sub-system targetting reduces your accuracy, and not all the damage from your weapon hit seems to go to the subsystem in question. I love the concept, but I think the implementation would really be helped by reducing the health of most subsystems.

Aldaron · « **Reply #44 on:** January 20, 2003, 02:59:16 pm »

Raise the health of critical systems (warp core, impulse, maybe cloak, etc) and lower the other systems. This would put more emphasis on taking out weapons, tractors and transporters as opposed to the warp core which essentially takes out everything including shields.

Corbomite · « **Reply #46 on:** January 20, 2003, 05:44:40 pm »

Wouldn't it be easier just to lower the overall damage done to subsystems when targeted? IMO you should only get 1/3 of the total computed damage when hitting a subsystem exclusively. It also seems a shame that Taldren put so much work into a combat system that people only use about 1/10 of i.e. everyone usually goes for the warp core and nothing else. Seems to me they could have saved themselves a lot of work and just let you target the warpcore.

ghostcamel · « **Reply #47 on:** January 20, 2003, 05:59:46 pm »

Yep its pretty pointless as is.

Aves · « **Reply #48 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:05:03 pm »

While the warp core is a great choice, if I'm flying a craft with AMMs I always go after the Impulse engines. And I often target them even if I don't have them.

This makes it easy to stay in a weak arc or even a blind spot for the rest of the battle, I just keep firing enough shots into the Impulse engine to make them immobile and then take my time with the rest...

IMHO the impulse engine is a BETTER choice (except against Borg) than the Warp Core, esp with AMMs

Whiplash · « **Reply #49 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:27:06 pm »

Have you seen ships actually slow down significantly when you target the impulse engines? I went through a string og 6+ battles where I exclusively target impulse on some small ships, and they never slowed down at all until the blew up. I'm not convinced it works.

W.

Whiplash · « **Reply #50 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:30:26 pm »

Hey Aldaron, does your moniker come from a book or game or something? Perhaps a decade ago I was running a role-playing game and one of the players chose to name his character "Aldaron Stormclimber"...

W.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #51 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:31:10 pm »

Against the AI, I've managed to reduce my enemy's speed from 26 to 16. I think it was more significant than that since the shhip originally had great manuverabilty (implying it was going at half impulse) and when the warp core was grey, it could barely turn.

Vortox · « **Reply #52 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:43:19 pm »

IMO there is only 3 major systems that worth any targetting at all. The Warp Core, Impulse Engine, and Tractor Beam. LOL Maybe they should just make the game with only this 3 subsystem...hahaha...lol

theRomulan · « **Reply #53 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:44:35 pm »

While your advice about the impulse engines is certainly a valid and clever idea, my point is that those very major systems are the only ones worth targetting right now. Also, damaging subsystems usually REQUIRES an alpha strike. I feel subsystem damage has been lacking in the last two games. SFC2 right now has it more than SFC3, but the double internals thing kind of weakens the effectiveness of some weapons, like photons. However, SFC2 is as good as it can be in my opinion, but SFC3 seems like it can take the subsystem damage thing to a whole new height.

Right now, impulse enginges, warp core, the tractor beam, and the cloak are the systems that people most want to hit. In my opinion, they are major systems, and should probably require that you slam them with alpha strikes, etc. However, the smaller systems, like weapons, require almost the same amount of power to stun or destroy. In SFC2, and i'm not trying to glorify the old system, mizia strikes had a pretty good effect on systems. If people laid the phaser shots down on me one at a time, i would witness many of my weapons randomly getting knocked out according to the arc. IT was good, I appreciated seeing my weapons getting damaged in the process. In SFC3, targetting the hull will usually get you stun affect on weapons after penetrating the armor, but when you actually target a weapon system, it seems like only an alpha strike will provide you with the results that you need. In the other games, I would get mizia attacked, even with my armor, and witness 3 of my phasers get knocked out. I enjoyed this, as it force me to decide how I would I repair things... do I want weapons first or do I want to fix the engines. SFC3 has this only to a certain extent. I can target certain weapons at will, but knocking them out requires all of my firepower in one shunt... and knocking out one weapon at a time is not very effective, especially if I have to commit all of my fire power into it. I might as well have just taken out the vital systems like impulse or warp core.

As it stands, I have found that it's actually easier to damage warp than it is to slow down opponents through the impulse enginges. SFC3 is seeing a lot of ship variants that move very fast. The Federation Intrepid class is an example of this. My brother usually loads out his ship with light phaser banks all around, photons in the front, and a quantum in the back, level 5 shields, and what not. He can fight with all of his weapons and travel at a speed of 60 constantly. this isn't so bad, but i could effectively slow him down using mizia strikes after i've weakened his shields, it would help a lot. I like to fly a k'tinga, despite the bad arcs. I actually like the arcs, they are very effective for giving the ship circular defense, however; because mizia strikes aren't so effective in this game, the k'tinga and the fek'lhr are considered weak. In fact, any ship with arcs that aren't pointed foward to provide alpha strike crunch are considered weak right now. I don't think it's the arcs that are hurting their power, it's the fact that shields and armor in this game are extremely difficult to penetrate with anything except a heavy alpha. I don't know if the patch will address the defensive power that many ships have in this game, but I hope Taldren will read this post in some way, or are already on their way to considering this issue. I feel ships like the k'tinga will be more favorable to fly, despite the low space and usual low speeds they will have compared to other ships, if mizia attack became more 'functional'.

I feel that if subsystems like the weapons were easily (yes, I said easily) stunned and destroyed, it would bring back a flavor of having to pilot well, and also allow us to knock out the opponents sometimes superior firepower out without having to use tremendous firepower ourselves. AS of now, I don't select a tachyon beam as a weapon because I know that I practically NEED all heavy firepower I can get to bring an enemy down. I don't have time to think about disabling warp, I need to crunch through their shields. If I could knock out several weapon systems more easily, then carrying around special tools like a tachyon beam would actually be useful. Anyway, that's my rant. I just wonder if Taldren is addressing any issues like this, I always have the deepest respect for their dedication to making the games better.

Deviak · « **Reply #54 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:45:02 pm »

actually Whip, it does work. However, I don't know why it hardly seems to have an effect in MP..One thing I did was to test this in Skirmish with my Intrepid and a Marauder, later did the same for a BoP. I realized that it had a delayed effect. If I fired at it till it was yellow, it didn't seem to have an effect, but I kept watching the speed counter. After a while, the speed of both the BoP and Marauder dropped and stayed at a constant lowered speed. Yeh I had them tractored to focus on the speed counter. I hit it again in the red and later destroyed it. They were still flying at that constant speed and a while later probably about 23 seconds or so, it started dropping bit by bit and then finally dropped to 0.

I believe the same thing should happen in MP but it's just delayed. Plus when those guys see their impulse is being hit they probably immeadiately start repairing and makes it seem that they had no effect whatsoever. Btw, you just can't help but keep at SFC 3 with these "debates" huh.

Vysander · « **Reply #55 on:** January 20, 2003, 09:46:56 pm »

I shoot at the impulse engines of those annoying pirate ships on planet missions.... i'm in a big slow sphere prime and those annoying things keep running from me (it's either that or charge up a tractor beam.. I usually snag one with a beam and just let my beam blow them up while I chase down another one)

I hate those things that fly out to range 30 before they decide to finally turn around and come back for another pass

Whiplash · « **Reply #56 on:** January 20, 2003, 10:38:57 pm »

Actually, Deviak, I didn't have an ulterior motive for this post. It doesn't really say anything bad about SFC3, does it? I mean, sure, maybe the subsystem targeting can be tweaked to be more fun and useful, but I've made no good or bad references at all. And not compared it to SFC2 either. But I will now.

In SFC2, when your ship blew up, it felt like it was a burning wreck due to all the systems it had lost. In SFC3, ships feel much more whole and complete until their warp core breaches. I don't really care for this. Surprised?

However, I was only asking to get information. I play SFC3 maybe only once every 2 weeks now. Still, I want to expand my knowledge base and find out what are the good tactics. In SFC2, you can't target subsystems at all. This is appropriate and desirable for a game based on SFB. For SFC3, I like the subsystem targeting because I have no preconceived standard of what the game should be. I use warp core targeting. I tried impulse targeting but didn't get good results. That is not a slam against SFC3. I wanted to find out if there was an important system I was missing out on.

If you miss my SFC3-basing posts, just say the word. I can probably oblige.

W.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #59 on:** January 21, 2003, 05:06:14 am »

If you're a cloaking race, do yourself a favor and target your enemy's Sensors. It gives you a possibility of killing his Ops (or whichever one is in charge of anti-cloak) Officer off, and damaging the sensor itself, reducing the range and chance he's going to detect you.

Personally, I consider targeting the Warp Core a cheat. It is far too easy and far too devastating. In a future patch it would be nice to see Warp Cores that are a pain to take out.

Impulse engines are a good pick, especially if your opponent is faster than you. I target this in leiu of the Warp Core. Also, it give you a chance to kill of their Engineer. Do that, and they're power drops a lot.

Targeting subsystems, I've found isn't that hard at all. I usually equip my ships with rear, fast charging weapons specifically so that I can pick systems off as my oppenent is chasing me. Persistence pays when knocking systems out, and remember they can be reapaired a limited number of times, so you're going to see a targeted system come back to green a few times before it's truly gone (depending on whether your opponent decides to spend spare parts on it). Alpha strikes are certainly not required if you know what you're doing to take systems out.

theRomulan · « **Reply #60 on:** January 21, 2003, 08:40:59 am »

I'm certainly not experiencing the same results as you are then. So far, I have literally had to pound the crap out a system in order to finally knock it out... and I KNOW that I took out the armor, shileds, etc. This is when I have flown klingon, using disruptors and the like. I have not been able to effectively fire one disruptor at a time to stun or damage any system. I had to alpha strike.

When I fly romulan, which I like most, I can knock out systems pretty easily, but tha'ts because one shot of plasma is a whole lot of damage. I don't have to fire everthing. But when I go disruptors only, one distruptor will not do the trick. I usually have to overload disruptor 1's or 2's in order to get a desired effect, meaning that my fight to take out multiple systems will take more time than I actually have to hurt the person significantly. He just faces the other shield at me and alpha strikes. Well, whatever, I'll just keep giving mizia a try. I'm just suggesting that the 'wrecked ship' effect of sfc2 is missing in sfc3, and while the games are certainly supposed to be different, I can swear that a lot of times a person's ship is destroyed, but right before that he still had the power to fire weapons, go full impulse, and use the warp drive. the only real disadvantage he was in was that he he had to repari his ship three or four times, and now his shields are down. Otherwise, he's an intact ship. At least it seems that way to me.

matyoung · « **Reply #62 on:** January 21, 2003, 09:28:08 am »

If u constantly target one subsystem they only need to repair that one but if u say hit&run with your transporters say warpcore and then use your primary weapons (i say primary as they seem to be most effective at sub system targeting rather than the heavies) to target their impulse or my fav to hit the all round arc weapons (which in it self might knock out the tactical officer for the duration of the battle) then this will force your opponent to concentrate on repairing 2 systems i have had many pvp battles using this tactic and i honestly find this more effective than concentrating on one system..

"Go to red alert kryton"

"Are you sure sir it does mean changin the green blub to a red one"

SpiralArchitech

Firestorm · « **Reply #63 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:50:56 pm »

I think it does make some sense to split out the warp core(power supply) and the warp engines. The warp engines should be relatively easy to take out like about same as it is now. But, the warp core should be much tougher! Maybe even have the warp core only taken out by hit&runs, but not by targeting subsystems for weapons fire.

Whiplash · « **Reply #64 on:** January 21, 2003, 06:02:28 pm »

Firestorm, are you talking about separating the ability to target your power and ability to go to warp? If the warp engines fail, it only means you can't go to warp? Does warping happen at slower speeds as your engines become damaged?

W.

32nd Halcyon · « **Reply #68 on:** January 21, 2003, 11:32:34 pm »

This sounds reasonable. however, Do you remeber the episode with the captain that comes into the future causing a loop in time? Basically we the viewer watched the Enterprise explode due to a nacelle strike. Wouldn't that make hitting the Nacelles a primary target? Just a thought. For most races the nacelles are right out in the open. I've noticed that when attacking the warp engines the total power imput is degraded. This of course would mean there is less power contributed to primary/secondary weapons. Thus making them less powerful. As stated before in many posts the speed of a ship is related to the impulse engines. I don't remember being able to target thrusters, wouldn't that make more interesting if your ship lost manueverablity?

Just some ponderings.

Hal ]

ragamer · « **Reply #70 on:** January 22, 2003, 06:40:47 am »

Well I think that the actual subsystem targeting is bad balanced. The reason is simple:

It takes roughly the same time to destroy an enemy targeting its subsystems or its hull.
If the targeted system is the warp core it happens that the time needed to destroy it is
much short, why?. Consider this example:
Suppouse that you and your enemy are fresh (shields up, hull intact), but your enemy is
aiming at your hull and you are aiming at his warp core (even with his shields full). Well
the combat flows and as soon as you do an alpha on him, and some damage enters, ALL his shields
will start droping (based on the condition of the warp core), so in the next attacks it is more
probable that some damage enter again, because ALL shields are weakened. Meanwhile your enemy
is aiming at your hull, so he's spreading his damage beetween ALL your shields (if you have
minimum skill to 'soak' it). So at the end he will eventually lose all his shields and you are
doing internal damage on EACH shot.
If you want to do the test... Try skirmishes against the AI and write down the time needed
to destroy your enemy (fully destroy... BLAM!!!).

On top of that if you start to analyze the condition of your ship after the kill... You will
see even more advantages on subsystem targeting.

To balance this, the numbers and the effects of system targeting should not substitute the
effect of Hull targeting... The TOTAL destruction of the ship.

Firestorm · « **Reply #71 on:** January 22, 2003, 07:19:43 am »

I agree to the point that the way a ship is usually destroyed doesn't make much sense.

Usually, as you say, you take out the warp core first. This keeps your opponent from returning fire, and he can't warp away from you.

Then you go after his hull, and you can move in close because you won't be fired upon.

Most of the time I see ships exploding with all of their weapons still in tact, the only real damage is warp core and hull.

It just doesn't seem quite right?!?!?!?

Whiplash · « **Reply #72 on:** January 22, 2003, 09:31:22 am »

I'll agree with that, but then again, we see some very contrary events in Nemesis. The Scimitar took out the BigE's warp core on the first pass, and they fought rather effectively from then on, and their ship hadn't really taken that much of a beating by the time the warp core was gone.

Basically, you just can't know whats "true" to Star Trek because each writer has his own version of the truth.

Maybe its like the Bible. One Bible. Many interpretations.

W.

NJAntman · « **Reply #73 on:** January 22, 2003, 11:43:16 am »

Most fan-fic stories and models seem to place the warp core buried internally and the warp nacelles hanging out in the open. My interpretation of the twisted canon of Trek is that the real power (and danger) is the core and the nacelles just feed off the power to push plasma around. Damaging or even destroying a nacelle should only effect your ability to warp (as long as the impact and flying plasma doesn't twist the ship to shreds), not your ability to power systems.

I vote for splitting the Warp Core from the Nacelles. Besides, shouldn't targeting a big structure like nacelle be a hell of lot easier than trying to hit something buried deep within the vessel?

Maybe in the next patch (after the current wayward patch)?

ragamer · « **Reply #74 on:** January 22, 2003, 01:04:24 pm »

K, I'm going to try to be constructive. This system could work, but I have to assume a couple of things:

HUHP: Are the hull hit points.
COHP: Are the hit points of each component (that may differ beetween components).
CTHP: The sum of each component COHP.
WDAM: The amount of HP that a weapon do to the ship (they are efective)

I will assume that HUHP = CTHP. Well, in this system, A non aimed shot will do WDAM to the HUHP and WDAM/2 to a random component's COHP (You can even scale this by a percentage, representing that not all Hull Aimed shots can damage a system). An aimed shot will do WDAM/2 to the AIMED system's COHP and WDAM/2 to the HUHP.

Now the effects of damage. First of all they have to be inversely proportional to the amount of COHP left, and they could be:
- Weapon: Decrease in Damage. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Impulse: Decrease in Speed and Turning Rate. Range: 100% - 10% (minimum is 10% of FULL operational capacity).
- Sensors: Decrease in Range of detection. Range: 100% - 10%.
- Tractors: Decrease in Strength. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Transporters: Decrease in number. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Cloak: Decrease in cloaking capability. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Shuttle Bay: Increase in loading and ready time. Range: 100% - 0% (in this case the inverse of the operative percentage is multiplied by the standard time to obtain the actual ready time. If a shutle bay with 50 HP has sustained 40 Damage, 50-40 = 10 COHP left, then the actual time will be 50/10 = 5 times the normal time. a 0% condition means no readying posible).
- Armor: By definition untargetable.
- Warp Core. Well really this system should be divided into Warp Engine (allow warp speed) and Warp Reactor (produces power). For Warp Engine the operational range: 100% - 0%, and for the Warp Reactor: 100% - 50%. The explanation is that if the warp reactor is inside the Hull you can only try to hit external features like exhaustion ports, power channels and the like.

To make things more interesting, you can add more complications like certain components can only be hitted from specific arcs (which make a lot of sense) and if you are trying to hit them from wrong arcs, you obtain a standard hull hit (your weapons officer should know if the component is reacheable or not).

32nd Halcyon · « **Reply #75 on:** January 22, 2003, 02:38:37 pm »

Thats a good point there. This would make this a much more "realisticly tactical" game. I suppose the proper way of differnciating between the warp engine and speed producing warp could be the components like the nacelles. This would effectively mean we are targeting a sub system of a major system required for propulsion & pwr. I'm not sure Taldren would introduce that in a patch. It would bring something more to the game but would it be marginally better? I've been warp raped before, I know what it's like to play a game a fencing as such.

kitten · « **Reply #77 on:** January 22, 2003, 10:04:50 pm »

i've found the game more enjoyable when you reduce the number of 'hitpoints' the weapon subsystems have.

Vortox · « **Reply #78 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:11:36 am »

This sure going to continue on....lol There is just so many things...that could use a little tweaks here and there...

CmdrK · « **Reply #79 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:37:41 pm »

For an idea, maybe damage shouldn't be allocated to a targeted warp core until, say, at least 1/3 of the hull is damaged. This would reflect to some degree the weakening of the ships hull and exposure of the core.

I also like the idea of seperate core and warp engines.

News:

Topic: SFC3 subsystem targeting (Read 17349 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Whiplash

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Topic: SFC3 subsystem targeting (Read 17349 times)