Topic: SFC3 subsystem targeting

[theRomulan]

I'm certainly not experiencing the same results as you are then.  So far, I have literally had to pound the crap out a system in order to finally knock it out... and I KNOW that I took out the armor, shileds, etc.  This is when I have flown klingon, using disruptors and the like.  I have not been able to effectively fire one disruptor at a time to stun or damage any system.  I had to alpha strike.  

When I fly romulan, which I like most, I can knock out systems pretty easily, but tha'ts because one shot of plasma is a whole lot of damage.  I don't have to fire everthing.  But when I go disruptors only, one distruptor will not do the trick.  I usually have to overload disruptor 1's or 2's in order to get a desired effect, meaning that my fight to take out multiple systems will take more time than I actually have to hurt the person significantly. He just faces the other shield at me and alpha strikes.  Well, whatever, I'll just keep giving mizia a try.  I'm just suggesting that the 'wrecked ship' effect of sfc2 is missing in sfc3, and while the games are certainly supposed to be different, I can swear that a lot of times a person's ship is destroyed, but right before that he still had the power to fire weapons, go full impulse, and use the warp drive.  the only real disadvantage he was in was that he he had to repari his ship three or four times, and now his shields are down.  Otherwise, he's an intact ship.  At least it seems that way to me.  

[Aldaron]

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Aldaron is one of the Kings in Tolkiens books. If I remeber correctly he is one of Aragorn's ancestors.  

I think you are thinking of Tar-Aldarion, which isn't the same spelling. The only Aldaron I know of got blown up in Star Wars.  

 That would be Alderaan.

But I was incorrect it's an Quenya Elvish name  meaning "Lord of Trees"

Anarion is the younger son of Elendil, brother to Isildur. This was another of my Charaters in D&D.    

[matyoung]

 If u constantly target one subsystem they only need to repair that one but if u say hit&run with your transporters say warpcore and then use your primary weapons (i say primary as they seem to be most effective at sub system targeting rather than the heavies) to target their impulse or my fav to hit the all round arc weapons (which in it self might knock out the tactical officer for the duration of the battle) then this will force your opponent to concentrate on repairing 2 systems i have had many pvp battles using this tactic and i honestly find this more effective than concentrating on one system..


"Go to red alert kryton"

"Are you sure sir it does mean changin the green blub to a red one"

SpiralArchitech  

[Firestorm]

I think it does make some sense to split out the warp core(power supply) and the warp engines.  The warp engines should be relatively easy to take out like about same as it is now.  But, the warp core should be much tougher!  Maybe even have the warp core only taken out by hit&runs, but not by targeting subsystems for weapons fire.

[Whiplash]

Firestorm, are you talking about separating the ability to target your power and ability to go to warp? If the warp engines fail, it only means you can't go to warp? Does warping happen at slower speeds as your engines become damaged?

W.
 

[Arcilte]

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I think it does make some sense to split out the warp core(power supply) and the warp engines.  The warp engines should be relatively easy to take out like about same as it is now.  But, the warp core should be much tougher!  Maybe even have the warp core only taken out by hit&runs, but not by targeting subsystems for weapons fire.  

I agree. Split up warp engines and Warp core. Though in most episodes of Star Trek blowing up the warp core usually destroys the ship  

[EmeraldEdge]

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I think it does make some sense to split out the warp core(power supply) and the warp engines.  The warp engines should be relatively easy to take out like about same as it is now.  But, the warp core should be much tougher!  Maybe even have the warp core only taken out by hit&runs, but not by targeting subsystems for weapons fire.  

I agree. Split up warp engines and Warp core. Though in most episodes of Star Trek blowing up the warp core usually destroys the ship  

Or at least enough damage to the core would cause a breach and thus the need to eject the core, thus no chance for repair, because your core is floating off into space waiting to destruct as it overloads.  That's Trek.  

[Tulmahk]

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  This is when I have flown klingon,  

Yep.  There's your problem.  The downside of having fast weapons that do less damage is that subsystem targeting is less effiecient.  The Klingons are probably the least effiecient race when it comes to subsystem targeting.

I normally fly Romulan and even their fast weapons do a nice amount of damage (even more after the patch).  So subsystem targeting is a specialty of Romulans, and they are arguably the best at it with those heavy-damage primaries (I normally don't bother to target subsystems with heavies; plasma is prone to missing even without the penalty of subsystem targeting).

So you're absolutely right here.  

[32nd Halcyon]

This sounds reasonable. however, Do you remeber the episode with the captain that comes into the future causing a loop in time? Basically we the viewer watched the Enterprise explode due to a nacelle strike. Wouldn't that make hitting the Nacelles a primary target? Just a thought. For most races the nacelles are right out in the open. I've noticed that when attacking the warp engines the total power imput is degraded. This of course would mean there is less power contributed to primary/secondary weapons. Thus making them less powerful. As stated before in many posts the speed of a ship is related to the impulse engines. I don't remember being able to target thrusters, wouldn't that make more interesting if your ship lost manueverablity?

Just some ponderings.

Hal ]    

[Firestorm]

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Firestorm, are you talking about separating the ability to target your power and ability to go to warp? If the warp engines fail, it only means you can't go to warp? Does warping happen at slower speeds as your engines become damaged?

W.
 

Yes, that is what I am talking about.  Two separate targetable subsystems(Warp Core and Warp Engines).

Yes, as the Warp Engine takes damage, its warp speed should be less, until it is gone.

Same for Impulse.  Right now, I don't reallly see ships slowing down until impulse is completely gone.   I think as the engine takes damage, it should slow it down.

The Warp Power(Warp Core) IMO should only be damaged by hit and runs, not targetable by weapons fire, but you could sell me either way on that one.

[ragamer]

Well I think that the actual subsystem targeting is bad balanced. The reason is simple:

It takes roughly the same time to destroy an enemy targeting its subsystems or its hull.
If the targeted system is the warp core it happens that the time needed to destroy it is
much short, why?. Consider this example:
Suppouse that you and your enemy are fresh (shields up, hull intact), but your enemy is
aiming at your hull and you are aiming at his warp core (even with his shields full). Well
the combat flows and as soon as you do an alpha on him, and some damage enters, ALL his shields
will start droping (based on the condition of the warp core), so in the next attacks it is more
probable that some damage enter again, because ALL shields are weakened. Meanwhile your enemy
is aiming at your hull, so he's spreading his damage beetween ALL your shields (if you have
minimum skill to 'soak' it). So at the end he will eventually lose all his shields and you are
doing internal damage on EACH shot.
If you want to do the test... Try skirmishes against the AI and write down the time needed
to destroy your enemy (fully destroy... BLAM!!!).

On top of that if you start to analyze the condition of your ship after the kill... You will
see even more advantages on subsystem targeting.

To balance this, the numbers and the effects of system targeting should not substitute the
effect of Hull targeting...  The TOTAL destruction of the ship.  

[Firestorm]

I agree to the point that the way a ship is usually destroyed doesn't make much sense.

Usually, as you say, you take out the warp core first.  This keeps your opponent from returning fire, and he can't warp away from you.

Then you go after his hull, and you can move in close because you won't be fired upon.

Most of the time I see ships exploding with all of their weapons still in tact, the only real damage is warp core and hull.

It just doesn't seem quite right?!?!?!?  

[Whiplash]

I'll agree with that, but then again, we see some very contrary events in Nemesis. The Scimitar took out the BigE's warp core on the first pass, and they fought rather effectively from then on, and their ship hadn't really taken that much of a beating by the time the warp core was gone.

Basically, you just can't know whats "true" to Star Trek because each writer has his own version of the truth.

Maybe its like the Bible. One Bible. Many interpretations.

W.
 

[NJAntman]

Most fan-fic stories and models seem to place the warp  core  buried internally and the warp  nacelles hanging out in the open. My interpretation of the twisted canon of Trek is that the real power (and danger) is the core and the nacelles just feed off the power to push plasma around. Damaging or even destroying a nacelle should only effect your ability to warp (as long as the impact and flying plasma doesn't twist the ship to shreds), not your ability to power systems.

I vote for splitting the Warp Core from the Nacelles. Besides, shouldn't targeting a big structure like nacelle be a hell of lot easier than trying to hit something buried deep within the vessel?

Maybe in the  next  patch (after the current wayward patch)?  

[ragamer]

K, I'm going to try to be constructive. This system could work, but I have to assume a couple of things:

HUHP: Are the hull hit points.
COHP:  Are the hit points of each component (that may differ beetween components).
CTHP: The sum of each component COHP.
WDAM: The amount of HP that a weapon do to the ship (they are efective)

I will assume that HUHP = CTHP. Well, in this system, A non aimed shot will do WDAM to the HUHP and WDAM/2 to a random component's COHP (You can even scale this by a percentage, representing that not all Hull Aimed shots can damage a system). An aimed shot will do WDAM/2 to the AIMED system's COHP and WDAM/2 to the HUHP.

Now the effects of damage. First of all they have to be inversely proportional to the amount of COHP left, and they could be:
- Weapon: Decrease in Damage. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Impulse: Decrease in Speed and Turning Rate. Range: 100% - 10% (minimum is 10% of FULL operational capacity).
- Sensors: Decrease in Range of detection. Range: 100% - 10%.
- Tractors: Decrease in Strength. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Transporters: Decrease in number. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Cloak: Decrease in cloaking capability. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Shuttle Bay: Increase in loading and ready time. Range: 100% - 0% (in this case the inverse of the operative percentage is multiplied by the standard time to obtain the actual ready time. If a shutle bay with 50 HP has sustained 40 Damage, 50-40 = 10 COHP left, then the actual time will be 50/10 = 5 times the normal time. a 0% condition means no readying posible).
- Armor: By definition untargetable.
- Warp Core. Well really this system should be divided into Warp Engine (allow warp speed) and Warp Reactor (produces power). For Warp Engine the operational range: 100% - 0%, and for the Warp Reactor: 100% - 50%. The explanation is that if the warp reactor is inside the Hull you can only try to hit external features like exhaustion ports, power channels and the like.

To make things more interesting, you can add more complications like certain components can only be hitted from specific arcs (which make a lot of sense) and if you are trying to hit them from wrong arcs, you obtain a standard hull hit (your weapons officer should know if the component is reacheable or not).  

[32nd Halcyon]

Thats a good point there. This would make this a much more "realisticly tactical" game. I suppose the proper way of differnciating between the warp engine and speed producing warp could be the components like the nacelles. This would effectively mean we are targeting a sub system of a major system required for propulsion & pwr. I'm not sure Taldren would introduce that in a patch. It would bring something more to the game but would it be marginally better? I've been warp raped before, I know what it's like to play a game a fencing as such.

 

[Vertigo]

In other words, you are asking for the DAC we used to have?

Quote:
K, I'm going to try to be constructive. This system could work, but I have to assume a couple of things:

HUHP: Are the hull hit points.
COHP:  Are the hit points of each component (that may differ beetween components).
CTHP: The sum of each component COHP.
WDAM: The amount of HP that a weapon do to the ship (they are efective)

I will assume that HUHP = CTHP. Well, in this system, A non aimed shot will do WDAM to the HUHP and WDAM/2 to a random component's COHP (You can even scale this by a percentage, representing that not all Hull Aimed shots can damage a system). An aimed shot will do WDAM/2 to the AIMED system's COHP and WDAM/2 to the HUHP.

Now the effects of damage. First of all they have to be inversely proportional to the amount of COHP left, and they could be:
- Weapon: Decrease in Damage. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Impulse: Decrease in Speed and Turning Rate. Range: 100% - 10% (minimum is 10% of FULL operational capacity).
- Sensors: Decrease in Range of detection. Range: 100% - 10%.
- Tractors: Decrease in Strength. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Transporters: Decrease in number. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Cloak: Decrease in cloaking capability. Range: 100% - 0%.
- Shuttle Bay: Increase in loading and ready time. Range: 100% - 0% (in this case the inverse of the operative percentage is multiplied by the standard time to obtain the actual ready time. If a shutle bay with 50 HP has sustained 40 Damage, 50-40 = 10 COHP left, then the actual time will be 50/10 = 5 times the normal time. a 0% condition means no readying posible).
- Armor: By definition untargetable.
- Warp Core. Well really this system should be divided into Warp Engine (allow warp speed) and Warp Reactor (produces power). For Warp Engine the operational range: 100% - 0%, and for the Warp Reactor: 100% - 50%. The explanation is that if the warp reactor is inside the Hull you can only try to hit external features like exhaustion ports, power channels and the like.

To make things more interesting, you can add more complications like certain components can only be hitted from specific arcs (which make a lot of sense) and if you are trying to hit them from wrong arcs, you obtain a standard hull hit (your weapons officer should know if the component is reacheable or not).  

 

[kitten]

i've found the game more enjoyable when you reduce the number of 'hitpoints' the weapon subsystems have.  

[Vortox]

This sure going to continue on....lol  There is just so many things...that could use a little tweaks here and there...

[CmdrK]

For an idea, maybe damage shouldn't be allocated to a targeted warp core until, say, at least 1/3 of the hull is damaged. This would reflect to some degree the weakening of the ships hull and exposure of the core.

I also like the idea of seperate core and warp engines.