#9

[Vorcha]

I think all the races could go with an over-haul.  SFB was and is a fabulous game, but following those same rules for years and years has led to glaring weaknesses and strengths in pvp match ups.  We need to set up a team of experts to puzzle thru each race w/ the thought of equalizing each race to increase the "fun" aspect of pvp match ups.  

As example I have been working the ship lists for some time and here are some of my personal changes:

1.  Miraks are power starved adding power helps them, also being solely reliant on drones is too one sided...give them 1 other heavy weapon (besides Disruptors) and only on ships w/o dizzy's.  I've experimented and have had great success increasing power and installing a sing FX arc PPD on select Mirak hulls.  Made them very very tough to go against.

2.  Rom's are great pvp ships, but have too limited an arc of heavie plas, so I stripped them of plas F's and changed their heavy plas to FA and RA firing arcs.  Losing the F's helped their power curve like you can't believe and giving them a rear firing heavy plasma made them also very very tough.  I also drastically increased the cost of cloaking.....making them drop to speed 10 or less when cloaked.

3.  Feds got slightly more power w/ FX photon arcs...this allowed them to fire a full spread of photons in arcs similar to current Klink C7's...made them really fun to fly.  The extra power allowed them to run at speed and easily charge photons and reinforce shields.

4.  Klinks got more power and better arc's on their dizzies on most hulls along w/  phaser upgrades.  P2's became P1's, and a few select ships (Escort Hulls) recieved Gatling's in place of some ph-3's.  W/ the combination of their excellent turn rate...this made them extremely fun in pvp matches.

5.  ISC got better PPD arcs and power upgrades on select models.  They are pretty tough as it is so I did the least w/ this race.

6.  Gorn got increased power and rear firing arcs on thier heavy plasmas similar to Rom's.  

7.  Lyran like the Mirak are power starved, I cured that across all hulls.  That alone made them a force.  In addition, I increased their Dizzy arc's to FX.

Another thing I toyed w/ were fighters.  I balanced (or tried to) the fighters so they had almost exactly the same fire power.  I also changed Carriers to just that...carriers w/ NO offensive fire power (Photons, PPD's, Dizzies, Plasma etc)....but enhanced defensive fire power(ADD"s, Gatlings Tractors etc).  I have always been of the opinion that true CV's are offensive w/ thier fighters and shouldn't be w/ thier ships.  Escorts are then mandatory w. each CV selection...they need protection.  The only exception I made w/ with CA hull Battle carriers like the C7V w/ small numbers of fighters...I left them w/ their heavy weapons.  The psuedo's I changed to a common matrix for all Psuedo races (same weapons etc) and instead of getting 4 or more plas F racks on more expensive upgrades, I increased their shields...making them harder to kill.

Basically I was about de-emphasizing drones, fighters and Psuedo's to take the game back to what I think it should be....a direct fire and plasma game.  Now that was my perfect world game based on my interests...of course everyone of you would want different things changed or left the way they are...hence the suggestion of a think tank of guys who's sole purpose if to balance the ship and fighter lists of the stock and or 3.3 model for OP.  If nothing else...then D2 server campiagns can be at least be losely based on this basic ship list or the rules applied to it.

My 2 cents.  

[FPF-DieHard]

4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice. 

[Gook]

4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice. 

Actually I have never been destroyed by any plasma boat, been "roughly" handled a couple of times, but never destroyed. In CW3 we actually had fleets of CCZ's etc running from DFs, quite bizarre. It was after CW3 and the rout of the ISC by the Kzin that the nerfs really started, but that is another story.

[FPF-DieHard]

4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice. 

Actually I have never been destroyed by any plasma boat, been "roughly" handled a couple of times, but never destroyed. In CW3 we actually had fleets of CCZ's etc running from DFs, quite bizarre. It was after CW3 and the rout of the ISC by the Kzin that the nerfs really started, but that is another story.

In what way have Kzin ships been nerfed?

[Lepton]

While it seems natural to head into the territory of how to fix things shipwise, I think that is really the wrong direction.  Trying to make Kzin more PvP worthy or plasma races flip faster does not address the base problems of the D2 which for me is a hex-flipping attitude itself.  Back in the days of Starlance, I think some of the most successful players and fleets were Kzin-based so I have no illusion that they can't be effective in PvP.

The motivation to play the D2 has to be more than hex-flipping and the gameplay in it needs to be more than hex-flipping. Of course in many ways it is more than hex-flipping, but what success often boils down to in the D2 is player numbers and number of missions run.  That seems a poor standard for success to me when 90% of those missions are against the AI which makes them most often a fait d'accompli. I don't have a great solution for this, but I think it is really the problem at base.

[Mr.Bad151]

Please forgive my ignorance, not have actually played a SFCII campaign.  I don't really understand what the problem/inbalance is.  Why is the speed in which a race an flip hex's a problem?  Is the problem that the Kzinti are able to start flying DN while the plasma races are stuggling to get out of DD's?

[Gook]

DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

Mr.Bad

Some ships are able to kill AI faster than others, so running missions in hexes in D2 to change a hex from say Fed to Klink requires the Defence value (DV) to be altered. If you win a mission versus the AI the DV alters in your favour. Eventually the hex will flip from Fed to Klink. If some races have ships which "flip" faster (run 2 minute missions to say 4 minute missions), they have an advantage when numbers are equal because they can run many more missions in the same time.

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

Heck, I ain't been flamed in a while, so here goes:

  My problem isn't with Miraki/Kzin drones at all.  It's the Freds and Klinks who go with the drone boats that rub me the wrong way.  The missile is the Kzin mainstay, but I can't remember a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout, vis-a vis photons/phasers/disruptors.  I'm painting with a wide brush, I know.  I know there are pilots out there who play to their race's flavor.  But to only paint the Miraki/Kzin, while ignoring other races droneboats, IMO, will only cause frustration/problems.

Flame away!

Gwarlock

Oh, I see...so the Feds and Klingons should totally ignore integral parts of their SFC2-D2 arsenals to avoid offending your (or others') sensibiities? 


At the very least, this is an unrealistic view.  It's akin to hoping the Hydrans stop using hellbore fighters or hoping it becomes accepted practice that  all PhG and PlasF and G-racks are stripped from the Fed fleet.


Drones are not the sole purview of the Kzin.



And if you can't remember "a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout," then I suggest your memory is failing miserably and you should seek medical attention! 

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

So by switching P-3 to P-1's.. you solve one problem without causing an inbalance vs other races...

Does anyone else see this as being a really horrible idea?

<raises hand>

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>

None of which are standard practice or even common.


About the only thing I can think of at the moment that is de rigeur  that could be seen as detrimental to droners (from all three races) is the disengagement rule.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>

None of which are standard practice or even common.

standard no , common very

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>

None of which are standard practice or even common.

standard no , common very

Where?  What, specifically?


Actually, Chuut...now that I think about it further, I guess I can see what you mean.  Some of these things are commonly experimented with, but I don't think any of the three has proven to be overly burdensome (or necessarily successful in their aim) at any time to the droner (note I say "droner," because three races have them).  As such,none have really gained any acceptance and certainly aren't anything anyone should truly be concerned about unless they do become overly burdensome and generally accepted pratice.

[Gook]

Dog,

3 races have droners, but 2 have a decent selection of other ships to fly too.

Remember the Kzin have the 2nd smallest shiplist overall, 50% of which are in the FF category,the inability to fly fleest thus impacts more on the Kzin, the differences in some of the bigger ships is zero (CC and CC+) springs to mind, along with marginal changes from CA to BC etc.. Then we have restriction escort usually, which takes out more of the few effective ships (people fly MECs and MACS for the phasers not the drones, same with the DWE). The pool of alternatives is small by comparison with Feds and Kilnks who have much larger lists and many more"Heavy" alternatives to choose from. The Gorn is the smallest list, but they have a higher proportion of medium and heavy vessels, and no "restrictiions" so are actually better off.

All

I spent some time at the  weekend trying diffrent plasma races boats for flippers. With Current stock list the ISC and Gorn both had a flipper which could complete the patrol mission in 2-3 minutes (ISC CLG 86 BPV  and Gorn COM 76 BPV), the Rommies were not so lucky but a SPHG 110 BPV was running missions in around 4 minutes, with better tactics I could probably get that down. Drop the BPV by 10% and they could all run 2 .30 minute missions. These were just first attempts at fast flippers, there are probably more, but although very rough and ready, it has firmed up my thinking that  a 10% drop for plasma boys would help equalise mission times greatly while having no impact on PvP and only a very marginal effect on other races. Granted only the ISC CLG with its 6 phaser 1s and 6 transporters came nearest to a DF, DWD, MDC,D5D,E4D,G2C,NCD time, but the others were within 30 seconds of it. Food for thought or more extensive testing by 3rd parties.

Just for the record I think the E4D is the fastest and cheapest flipper in the game as its 4 rack swith heavy drones are more than enough to deal with AI BPV it faces and it costs 33% less to run as a consequence, same with the G2C.

[el-Karnak]

Just make all the cheesy droner, PFTs, CVs min. BCH class and you'll start getting extra AI thrown at them in EEK patrols.  Then the mission times will balance out against plasma races. 

Making other races have no alternative but to fly hex flipping ships is not the way to go.  It's like telling all the races that they have to fly Mirak style or else. It's not exactly fair that 7 other races have to conform to one race's way of doing things. Plus, the non-Mirak races are forced to choose from one or two hex flippers rather than have the whole line shiplist selection to choose from. It's too lop-sided. It also make the game uber-boring. It's better to have the one race get better PvP ships and bring them into the fold with the other 7 races.  What was done for the Z-BCHs with Moggy's Z-BCH can be done in the Z-CL, Z-CC, Z-CCH classes.  Then you will maximize the usage of the shiplist for all races not just get numbed by always flying that F-NCD, F-CAD instead of a F-CB, F-CF, etc. or always flying that K-D5D instead of K-D5L, K-D7W, K-DWL, K-FDW, etc. and so on.  I would never play on or get involved with any dyna campaign that de facto mandated that I have to fly only one or two designated ISC hex flippers instead of the full line-up of I-CLY, I-CAx, I-CCx, etc.

I am a ISC pilot not a Frogo-Mirak pilot. I am a Klingon pilot not a Klingo-Mirak pilot. I am a Fed pilot not a Fedo-Mirak pilot, I am a Romulan pilot not a Rommie-Mirak pilot, etc.  If I want to be a Mirak pilot then I'll fly Mirak udder-wise I wanna do what my chosen race is designed to do and nothing else.

By making life harder on the hex flippers you'll stop the droner, PFTs, CV ship selection craze in its tracks.  BTW,  it only takes a few minutes to go through the shiplist and bump up the classes on the dreaded, hex flipping, mission time imbalancers. Then the hex flipping debate is satisfactorly taken cared off.

[FCM-Corbomite-XC]

Commando boats are usually restricted out (not that you would find any ISC flying one) and I can do faster times in a I-CA or I-CAW. If the Roms and Gorn use their NSM and SS (respectively) in combination with Enveloping torps on the AI their mission times would be 2:30 to 4 minutes on average depending on the match up in a 1v1.

I wish Commando boats weren't restricted out as the D2 is where they can do their job, but they were clogging up the shipyards and people complained about it and they disappeared.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just make all the cheesy droner, PFTs, CVs min. BCH class and you'll start getting extra AI thrown at them in EEK patrols.  Then the mission times will balance out against plasma races. 

Making other races have no alternative but to fly hex flipping ships is not the way to go.  It's like telling all the races that they have to fly Mirak style or else. It's not exactly fair that 7 other races have to conform to one race's way of doing things. Plus, the non-Mirak races are forced to choose from one or two hex flippers rather than have the whole line shiplist selection to choose from. It's too lop-sided. It also make the game uber-boring. It's better to have the one race get better PvP ships and bring them into the fold with the other 7 races.  What was done for the Z-BCHs with Moggy's Z-BCH can be done in the Z-CL, Z-CC, Z-CCH classes.  Then you will maximize the usage of the shiplist for all races not just get numbed by always flying that F-NCD, F-CAD instead of a F-CB, F-CF, etc. or always flying that K-D5D instead of K-D5L, K-D7W, K-DWL, K-FDW, etc. and so on.  I would never play on or get involved with any dyna campaign that de facto mandated that I have to fly only one or two designated ISC hex flippers instead of the full line-up of I-CLY, I-CAx, I-CCx, etc.

 I am a ISC pilot not a Frogo-Mirak pilot. I am a Klingon pilot not a Klingo-Mirak pilot. I am a Fed pilot not a Fedo-Mirak pilot, I am a Romulan pilot not a Rommie-Mirak pilot, etc.  If I want to be a Mirak pilot then I'll fly Mirak udder-wise I wanna do what my chosen race is designed to do and nothing else.

By making life harder on the hex flippers you'll stop the droner, PFTs, CV ship selection craze in its tracks.  BTW,  it only takes a few minutes to go through the shiplist and bump up the classes on the dreaded, hex flipping, mission time imbalancers. Then the hex flipping debate is satisfactorly taken cared off.

I am a Mirak pilot not a Mirak -Frogo pilot etc.  So stop trying to shove extra ai down my throat Karnak!

The type of mission your prescribing here is enough to make me sit out a server using them.  Do you want everyone to be forced into your type game without a choice, something you claim to oppose.  All the mirak pilots I know have fully supported efforts to equalize the playing field as far as mission times by supporting the disengagement rule, dealing with reasonable BPV bumps etc. 

Nothing wrong with making such scripts for your own campaign of course. 

Also please inform me if these are to be used in any server, so that I can save myself the time in preparing for any such campaigns. 

[Lepton]

I have the solution.  Let's just cut the Mirak out of the D2.  Problem solved.

I think fed and klink pilots will be less inclined to fly hex-flippers if the hex-flippers par excellence are not merely neutered but euthanized.

They're a minor race and a source of constant problems.  Just cut them out.  Problem solved.

[FPF-DieHard]

Oh boy, and I though the WT flamewar was hot.  This one is about to explode . . .

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I have the solution.  Let's just cut the Mirak out of the D2.  Problem solved.

I think fed and klink pilots will be less inclined to fly hex-flippers if the hex-flippers par excellence are not merely neutered but euthanized.

They're a minor race and a source of constant problems.  Just cut them out.  Problem solved.

Just get yourself a copy and play SFC1, YOUR  problem solved, just dont be surprised if you dont see too many of us there.....

[Cleaven]

Now there's an idea, the SFC1 mod of OP.

[Lepton]

Ah, SFC1.  Now those were the days.  No AMDs.  No plasma Ds.  Those were the drone days.

But seriously, I was just joking.  However, some times a faulty component just needs to be lifted out.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Ah, SFC1.  Now those were the days.  No AMDs.  No plasma Ds.  Those were the drone days.

But seriously, I was just joking.  However, some times a faulty component just needs to be lifted out.

And if it ain't broke don't fix it.......

[Cleaven]

All those in favour of the SFC1 Mod?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

All those in favour of the SFC1 Mod?

I'll admit on second thought those uber fast plasma might be fun to try out, and weren't drones speed 36 in late era?

Make an interesting diversion for a server.

[Gook]

Yep drone speed got nerfed for fast drones from 34 to 32.

So long since I played SFC1 I can't remember whether it had drones at all.

Speed 36 plasma, rather than speed 32 per SFB has never really been added to BPV of SFC ships, one can only speculate how much an R launcher with speed 36 plasma would cost in SFB, or an ESG that doesn't affect friendlies................ but we digress.

[Holocat]

Please forgive my ignorance, not have actually played a SFCII campaign.  I don't really understand what the problem/inbalance is.  Why is the speed in which a race an flip hex's a problem?  Is the problem that the Kzinti are able to start flying DN while the plasma races are stuggling to get out of DD's?

This is one of those bleeding ulcers that have been with the D2 as long as the D2 has existed.  Here's the senario:

Let's take a ficticous server of 100 people.  50 on the alliance side, 50 on the coalition side.

Flamebait #1, Mission times;  

This is essentially gook's explanation.  Drone boats kill AI faster, leading to shorter mission times.  In the dynaverse, every mission you complete adds or subtracts a number from the hex in question;  If it is a hex belonging to your empire, the number is added. If it is an enemey hex, this number is subtracted.

So, let's show an example.  Let's say the adverage mission time for a Mirak is 5 minutes, while the adverage mission time for a Gorn is 20 minutes.  In one hour, the gorn will score 3 'points' in missions.  However, in the same span of time the Mirak may score up to 12 (less if the base is far away, but let's keep this simple for now).  
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Flamebait #2, inept defence;  

Now, the crafty man or cat might say that a good defence can stop this cold.  It can, but defending a sector isn't as simple as sitting on it.  You see, missions are run independently of hexes;  only the result is reported.

What exactly do I mean by this?  To put it simply, missions can be run 'around' defenders, to their great chargin.  If you run a mission and there's a *free* enemy in the hex waiting for you, you will draft that enemy.  However, if someone's in the hex, but in mission, then you can run a mission, avoid this enemey, AND both missions will affect the Defence Value (DV) of that hex.

Let's show this as another example.  Let's say two mirak are assaulting a hex, with two Romulan defenders sitting on it.  The mirak, being crafty, stage their jumps into the hex in a staggered fashion.  The first mirak draws BOTH the romulan defenders, and for the next 30 minutes leads them on a merry chase which eventually causes the mirak to flee.  However, the second mirak may have racked up 6 DV points as this mirak was able to run missions 'around' the defenders.  They lose one point due to the romulans driving off one, but are still 5 points ahead in this game.
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Flamebait #3, Sneak attack;
Now, a server may have equal numbers on each side, but during a certian period of time their may be server imbalances.  Let's say most of the alliance pilots live in America.  Thus there are certain times when these people will sleep, go to work, and other such things that prevent one from doing the important work of winning a server.

Now, a sneak attack is when a group of people wait specifically until hours that they are aware that the opposition is most vulnerable to attack.  This is hardly a mirak-only tactic, but short mission times can compound the damage done by such raids, and long mission times can limit success of races with them using this tactic.

Let's take this example:  40 americans fight for the Lyran empire, scoring 120 DVs against the mirak during the course of 4 hours.  The 20 mirak of the miraki empire get together and agree to a sneak attack.  So, they wait until there are only 5 lyrans on, and then come en-masse and counterpunch for 4 hours.

Generally, a droner race will win these contests again by grace of the first flamebait, short mission times.
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Flamebait #4, The Great Hexx Flip-off:

One of the Dynaverse's limitations is that it is generally only conductive to a kind of hex-flipping warfare without gratitutious effort by the game's host to make it otherwise, and this is the center of the droner argument.  Drone ships do well what the dynaverse seemingly wants done, this being the efficient claiming of little hexes.  Most of the ships that can't perform fast missions can perform against players (Player versus Player or PvP) but because of 2 unless server rules are given, PvP vessels have been limited in their strategic effectiveness, hence the lines along "Rules GSA but not the Dynaverse."

The majority of server tinkering and server rules has been to try to level this field.  Bounties, VCs (as opposed to straight territorial conquest), Disengagement rules, and so on.

I suppose then that the answer to the quoted question is this:  The dynaverse, in the end, doesn't care who's in the DN and who's struggling in the DD, so long as they can take territory faster than their opponent. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

and I can only think of 1 recent server with drones only on one side of the equation, GW2 which was designed based on the general war.  So what we have is an equation with both sides having drones available.  We also have statements by several experienced pilots of both drone and plasma races that all races have some fast hex flippers so your 5 to 1 mission time equation isn't necessarily accurate. 

[Holocat]

and I can only think of 1 recent server with drones only on one side of the equation, GW2 which was designed based on the general war.  So what we have is an equation with both sides having drones available.  We also have statements by several experienced pilots of both drone and plasma races that all races have some fast hex flippers so your 5 to 1 mission time equation isn't necessarily accurate. 

In practice yes.  As to argument, most of the droner strangling is plasma vs. drone times, and that is thus what I am demonstrating.

Of course, this leads to allied territory mission running problems (which I think