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[Nemesis]

Now, it could be the power switch on the case, but what are the odds??!

Can't tell you the odds but I did have that once, on my 386/25mhz.  That was of course some time ago.

[Sirgod]

Anychance you can contact the company and get them to replace it, give you some cashage back?

stephen

[E_Look NCC-9091]

If it was MY computer, Stephen, sure, I'd e-mail DFI right away and try to do something.

In fact, the first time, they wanted me to RMA it back to them, but I had to pay shipping.

The only reason why I won't is that it's my kid's rig and I really want him to have it back up and running as soon as possible, though I might regret that as I KNOW he's mainly going to play games with it and do schoolwork on it about 0.001% of the time, contrary to what he tells me.  But seriously, he does need it for (some) school assignments and I'd rather not have him wait a couple of months before I can get it back up and running.

Now, another question- if it is the motherboard, do I have to reinstall Windows(XP)?  As far as I know, the HD is intact.

[Sirgod]

Nope XP should be fine, It will go through an ID check when you first start it up, in other words detecting anything new on the MB. IDE ports etc.

Stephen

[Elvis]

If you are switching froma NF2 DFI board to a Via based Abit board than you are better served by reinstalling Windows. I'm not saying that Windows won't work it just thast if you need to troubleshoot anything in the future how will you know its not some conflict between the old drivers that still exist on the machine and the new ones? It will always be suspect if you have problems. WIndows is also probably going to need to be reactivated in any case with the amount of change a new motherboard brings. New motherboard almost always equals a clean install of Windows.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Oh.   

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Hey guys, another installment in the never ending saga of computer troubles:

My CPU chip, a socket 754 AMD Athlon 64 3000+, a chip KNOWN to run hot, has for the last couple of weeks (or that's when I began to notice) started to run about ten degrees hotter than it used to, now running on idle at 73 C (according the motherboard's windows interface) or 68 C (according to the BIOS report).

Now I initially suspected some new software or even spyware in the background that might be eating up clock cycles and generating all this extra heat, but there isn't any new software installed nor any spy/malware detected.

Could it be that the fan on the CPU heatsink is going bad or maybe the thermal pad on the heatsink (that came with the chip in one retail kit) has degraded?

Could the fix be as easy as getting a new, better heatsink with a dab of Arctic Silver (which I may still some of around in the house)?

As always, I appreciate ANY help or advice coming from any of you guys.

[Javora]

You could try that Ed but I would also look at what kind of case you have.  If there isn't proper air-flow, then that maybe what is increasing the system temperature.  I don't know what case you have or where the fans and system wiring in that case are located so you'll have to judge for yourself on that.  Also look and see if the system is near a heater vent, with the colder season coming on your furnace is going to be putting out some heat.  If that system is near a heater vent your furnace could be pumping hot air into your system.  After you rule out those possibilities, then I would look into a new heat sink and fan.  Just remember that if you go with a new heat sink/fan to polish off all the old thermal pad off the CPU before you install the new heat sink.

Hope this helps.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Nah, the computer hasn't moved from it's spot in a long time.

But I just realized I did install a second hard drive.  But all that should do is increase the entire system's temperature, which didn't really increase much.

You don't think the case and CPU fans are just aging (about 2 years old or so)?

If it turns out I do need a new heatsink/fan combo, what would you recommend?

I just saw an ASUS unit that's supposed to be heat piped and is marked down ten bucks, on Newegg.

[Nemesis]

I've seen 2 CPU fans give issues.  Neither failed totally but each slowed down permanently and were not cooling properly because of that.  I replaced the whole heatsink/fan combo on one and just pulled the fan off an old heat sink used it to replace the other fan without removing the heat sink itself.

You didn't say but I assume that you did use compressed air to blow any accumulated dust out of the heat sink?

Adding another hard drive could also change the airflow in the case, especially with the old ribbon cables.  You just might want to look and see where the cables are relative to the possible air flow issues.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

There are, in my view, too many cables, even if the HDs are connected by round cables.  Round cables only slightly ease the airflow issue, I think.

No, I didn't use compressed air; didn't have any at home.  I just tried by best to suck it out with a vacuum cleaner... needless to say, it was only partially effective.

Since you've established that electronic device cooling fans DO slow over their operating lifetime, could also the CASE fans have suffered a similar malady?  Would you recommend replacing ALL the fans?

[Nemesis]

Case fans are less of an issue.  In part because they contribute less to the cooling but they also run slower and cooler and therefore experience less wear giving them longer lifespans.  CPU fans run both fast and hot.

So long as your motherboard temperature is alright I would think that it comes down to the heatsink/fan combo or blocked air flow to the heatsink/fan.  Clean it with compressed air and make sure there is no air flow blockage then consider changing the heatsink/fan if still needed.

I try to run the cables in places where air flow is not going to go or be needed anyhow.  I'd like to see them start putting cable connectors on the bottom of the mother board or on one edge so they can be kept from hanging everywhere.  The SATA cables are a great improvement (though I don't use any yet) partially because of being smaller in cross section but also because of being longer so they can be routed around the air paths rather than at times being forced into the air flow due to length constraints, I've had that with IDE and PATA cables too often.

[Sirgod]

I'm pretty good on the IDE cables, but all the twist ties in the world can't help my PS connectors. The only thing saving me, is the 7 case fans I have, otherwise, my PC would be running way to hot.

Stephen

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Holy McSmoke!!

Kudos to the combined intellect of Nemesis and Javora!

I busted my piggy bank, went over to MicroCenter after dindin, and sprung for a $5 can of compressed air (really, freon, but what's a few fluorinated hydrocarbons among ozone-dependent humans?).  My wife found out I was heading out and so saddled me with a bunch of errands, and I got back later than I wanted to.

But, I still pulled out the 423,815.73 cables I had in the back of the computer and the one in the front, cleared off a spot on my desk, heaved the metal prism up on the clear spot, opened it and zapped the CPU fan/heatsink and the other case fans, along with those in the PSU with the vacuum cleaner's hose nozzle near the blasting spots.

But, I still found a few points even the compressed gas, with the fine spray tube attached no less, couldn't reach.  So I decided to do the reverse: I got some duct tape, and taped a drinking straw to the vac's nozzle and stuck it into those tight unblastable spots.  Son of a gun, it sucked out the dust bunny remnants that clung tenaciously to those corners of the heatsink under the fan, those areas of the fans blocked from direct air blasting by the fan blades, etc.  (Even so, little dust clumps flew everywhere almost inside my case; fortunately, my wife's little "Shark" vac is so strong it sucked all the dust clumps quite a few inches away from the nozzle.)

Well, it's now perhaps over a half hour since I plugged all my cables back on and booted up.  It started at 42C and now is only SIX DEGREES CELSIUS (about 11 degrees Fahrenheit for us Yanks) higher than when it booted!

Wow.  I thought either a K-BB or those six doomsday cigars in the old SFC1 campaign were tough customers.  Bah!  Dust beats them all!

Again, thanks to all respondents, but chiefly Jav and Nem!


Edit:

I *should* add, though, that playing SFC (1, in this case) raises the CPU temp by another 4 C to 52 C.  Last night, BC, (before cleaning), it set off the preprogrammed temperature alarm!  As soon as I closed SFC, it went immediately back down to 49 C and right now (2 AM, continuousl yon since I first posted tonight, it's now 47/48 C!!)

Now I know what they REALLY mean when they say, "Ah, cool!"

[Javora]

Well great Ed, glad that problem got solved.  Now lets take it one step farther and try to reduce the amount of dust that is going into your system in the first place.  What I did is I used a very porous material to put in front of the intake fans without really reducing the airflow going into the system.  Then every so often (monthly or bimonthly) I take them out and clean it with either a vacuum cleaner and/or compressed air.  If your system doesn't have a way for you to easily attach the material then you may want to try what I did and use a hot-glue gun.  I've found that the hot-glue is easy to work with and can be peeled off with your fingers.  I did this with my side intake fan mount and have had good luck it.  As always, hope this helps.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Hmmm... filtered fan intakes!  Great idea.

If I come up with a way to install somethiing like that as nifty as yours, I'll post it, too.

[Tus]

hmmm, i wouldn't recommend using a vacuum unless its one of them small battery ones.  always remembered my tech teacher telling me not to do that, think it might have had to do w/ static charge building up in big vacs.  Though I could be completly of base here....

[E_Look NCC-9091]

hmmm, i wouldn't recommend using a vacuum unless its one of them small battery ones.  always remembered my tech teacher telling me not to do that, think it might have had to do w/ static charge building up in big vacs.  Though I could be completly of base here....

Nah... the system *should* be grounded enough as designed by the mobo makers, vid card makers, etc.  Besides, in general, no part of the vac touches the system, you really only stick the nozzle over different areas.  But in my case on the second day, I DID touch the system at various points, but with the plastic drinking straw I taped to the nozzle (so as only to suck through the straw), and then only to plastic fan parts and at one time only, the aluminum fins of the CPU heatsink, but I suspect the straw, tape, nozzle, and hose kluge is insulated from the vac's motor, which turning may generate charge, if any... and a person is a worse source of static, but not if he's grounded himself to the case, which is a given when you're leaning on it's edge doing all this stuff!

[E_Look NCC-9091]

...  What I did is I used a very porous material to put in front of the intake fans without really reducing the airflow going into the system.s.

You know, I wonder if that foam for window A/C units might work... nah, too thick.  I need something like... YEAH!  What do you guys think of cutting a piece from a vacuum cleaner bag?

[Nemesis]

You could try flattening out one of the dusk masks sold to woodworking hobbiests.  If you can get it flat enough it should do the trick.

Glad to hear the computer is working well again.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

You could try flattening out one of the dusk masks sold to woodworking hobbiests.  If you can get it flat enough it should do the trick.

Glad to hear the computer is working well again.

Now that's the easiest way to that, I think!

And thanks for the sentiment.  It's still sort of hard to believe the thermal insulatiing properties of... of all things... dust.

[Nemesis]

I would guess that a lot of the insulating ability of dust comes from the airspaces that are trapped within the layers.  Little straight conduction of heat through a consistant medium.  Much harder for the heat to leave the dust and enter the air pocket then back into dust on the other side only to repeat that over and over as it travels through to the outside environment.  The rate of transmission must be greatly slowed by each of those borders that is transited.  Rather like standard home insulation.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

I would guess that a lot of the insulating ability of dust comes from the airspaces that are trapped within the layers.  Little straight conduction of heat through a consistant medium.  Much harder for the heat to leave the dust and enter the air pocket then back into dust on the other side only to repeat that over and over as it travels through to the outside environment.  The rate of transmission must be greatly slowed by each of those borders that is transited.  Rather like standard home insulation.

Oh, you are absolutely and technically right.  I was just moaning and complaining, doing my New Yorker act.  I suspect that if the dust was compressed, it would greatly reduce its insulating ability, as you essentially outlined.

I am right now actually mildly surprised that one doesn't find on Newegg, MWave, Zipzoomfly, etc., filter mounted case fans for sale.  Since this ultimately still is a Star Trek based forum, it would be a very logical product to manufacture and sell!

[The Bar-Abbas Anomaly]

 
Filtering limits the airflow too much, which is the more critical concern.


Dust doesn't really hurt too much inside the case except to limit airflow over the heat sinks or clog up the fans, but I had a friend who used to theorize that the real problem was humidity, because when the dust got damp it became conductive....


I'm not sure if he wasn't onto something...

[E_Look NCC-9091]

Ah, but no matter how "conductive" wet dust can become, it ultimately approximates the thermal conductivity of water and bare aluminum is always better than that... or for those of you who are rich folks, bare copper...

[Nemesis]

Dust doesn't really hurt too much inside the case except to limit airflow over the heat sinks or clog up the fans, but I had a friend who used to theorize that the real problem was humidity, because when the dust got damp it became conductive....

I'm not sure if he wasn't onto something...

Hot dust on the heat sink/fans would have a difficult time becoming and staying damp.

[E_Look NCC-9091]

'Rabs is onto something here, and I forgot to address it:

Yeah, I forgot about sufficient airflow.  If I DO put a filter in front of a fan, it will necessarily restrict airflow to some degree.  But are the average case fans you can buy in a comp shop or on the 'Net rotating fast enough to generate enough "thrust" so that any reduction of flow rate due to filtering is not critical?

Filtering limits the airflow too much, which is the more critical concern.


Dust doesn't really hurt too much inside the case except to limit airflow over the heat sinks or clog up the fans...

[Javora]

Filtering limits the airflow too much, which is the more critical concern.


Dust doesn't really hurt too much inside the case except to limit airflow over the heat sinks or clog up the fans, but I had a friend who used to theorize that the real problem was humidity, because when the dust got damp it became conductive....


I'm not sure if he wasn't onto something...

As Ed has experienced dust can cause heat and airflow problems for your system.  I agree that a filter can decrease airflow but having dust stuck in the fan gears slows down the RPM rate of the fan and burns the fan out quicker.  To me its six of one and half-dozen of another.  It just comes down to convince for me.

[Nemesis]

Yeah, I forgot about sufficient airflow.  If I DO put a filter in front of a fan, it will necessarily restrict airflow to some degree.

Only the input fans should get the filters, the output fans will be unaffected.  Relatively thin filter material may be used to limit the flow reduction (you might consider nylon instead of the fiber filter I suggested earlier).  I don't use filters myself but many serious modders do.  It really depends on how often you need to clean the heat sinks and how annoying you find doing so.

Dust doesn't really hurt too much inside the case except to limit airflow over the heat sinks or clog up the fans..

Actually it coats everything inside the case and causes all components to run at higher temperatures than they really need to which does reduce the life expectancy of the system.  When I do clean the heat sinks I always blow dust off of everything in the system not just the sinks.

Link to tech support

[E_Look NCC-9091]

I was such a hamhanded bad shot with that can of compressed gas that the entire insides got cleaned anyway.  It's unbelievable that there's still something left in the can!

I think I will just use the "tape the drinking straw or coffee stirrer (depending and the smallness of the crevice to be suctioned out) to mouth of vacuum cleaner nozzle" trick in conjunction with the compressed gas...

... more often this time!

I'm not too sanguine, really, about using a filter, which in a way amounts to having a "permanent thin layer of dust" due to lowered air flow.