Topic: As my old 1SG used to say...  (Read 12302 times)

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intermech

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2006, 11:23:44 am »
I am very limited in talent in reguard to programing and making pluggins for various modeling software, however, as a modder, I have learned how to work the system a little bit. What if we chose a non-copyrighted format, i.e. .dxf, .3ds, .raw, etc, and just changed the file extension. Make it our own. That way, it would look foreign, but we wouldn't have to enlist a programer to make a pluggin for every software out there.

Offline Mr_Tricorder

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2006, 01:23:00 pm »
I am very limited in talent in reguard to programing and making pluggins for various modeling software, however, as a modder, I have learned how to work the system a little bit. What if we chose a non-copyrighted format, i.e. .dxf, .3ds, .raw, etc, and just changed the file extension. Make it our own. That way, it would look foreign, but we wouldn't have to enlist a programer to make a pluggin for every software out there.
Too easy

I don't have any real programming experience so I don't know how difficult it would be, but the idea of having our own file type is so we can control who can use the files through deciding who gets converters.  If you just change the extension, you've completely bypassed the need for a converter and anyone who knows what we've done can use the file.

intermech

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2006, 02:05:13 pm »
That is a great point Mr. Tricorder.
That is why we would keep it a secret.

Yesterday i tried opening the mod format in note pad, taking a part of the file out rendering it unusable.
But when I put it back in using the same method, it was still unusable. So that failed.

Another option might just be passworded zip files.
That would have the same effect.
But then you have to anwser every stinking e-mail.

Offline Sandman3D

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2006, 02:29:31 pm »
Let's face it guys...we've been over this a million times, but there really isn't much we can do. The bad guys will find a way...and how would we determine who got a converter? What about the guy that buys SFC out of the bargain bin and realizes that it's be cool to have better models in game? Do we tell him no, he's not a part of the elite.?

What I'm getting at is, we would kill the community doing that. There are a lot of ppl that use our models the right way that we never even meet cause they dont post on the forums. Do we deny them access? Then the community dies.

I look at it this way...ST, SW, SG etc. are copyrighted entities that we build free models of. If they are out there they are fair game. If I have something I want to protect, it will be original and NOT in .mod format, or a high poly model of one of the above mentioned.

All we can really do is what we have been doing...keep an eye on each others work and speak up if someone is stealing.
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intermech

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2006, 02:33:03 pm »
Well said. I really do appriciate that position. I personally feel the same way, I am just looking for alternatives that are better then loosing good modellers. But I think you are right.

Offline jayvt3

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 04:31:34 pm »
Looks like I opened a can of worm here and they just be squiggling everwhere!

I don't agree with a pay-pal system period.  Wicked Zombie, Atra and DTW have great models but I am not gonna pay for them it crosses the line of being a hobby to being a profession.  Would anyone here pay to be a member of Dynaverse or BattleClinic???

The conversion process and who gets it is flawed because if Atra used converter A and DTW uses converter B and DarkDrone uses converter C...see where this is going?

Interstellar Machine summed up the spirit of my idea like this "All we can really do is what we have been doing...keep an eye on each others work and speak up if someone is stealing." 

I think someone should contact BattleClinic and SFC3 Files to have them start a proper uniformed sorting technique.  Such like this example:
FED_ _TMP_ _FCA_ _Constitution Class_ _USS-Exeter_ _by Jay

This is how I have my files stored by race, era, ship type, class, name of ship and the primary model maker.  I think its simple and it has helped me cut down on having multiples of the same ship.

That's my nickel.

Good modelling all.

Offline Jad

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 05:07:07 pm »
Im thinking off pobbile, giving them the ship but group the whole ship together in max, all the parts so that parts are not changable and add a little unique sign on the ship so we kno its outs mehb

Offline Red_Green

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2006, 06:39:06 pm »
Quote
Looks like I opened a can of worm here and they just be squiggling everwhere!

Wheres the lid. Better put the cover on tight this time   ;D  Either that or time to go fishing.  :P


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Offline Starforce2

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2006, 08:05:53 pm »
Why do we need to defiane our  communities by game?  BC, SFC, armada,  legacy...whatever, it's all trek, thus why can't it be one community? Perhaps treating it as such would lessen such issues.

Offline Wicked Zombie

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2006, 12:25:09 am »
I've repeatedly heard comments about how nobody wants to share their work between communities because some have shown themselves to be untrustworthy or disrespectful. I used to think those were the usual exaggerations (like the "SFC hates BC" chestnut that's often brought out when nothing better will suffice). Of course, that opinion changed once my own work suffered the same fate.

It's not very trust-inspiring to have one's site usurped, their files reposted somewhere else, and their explicit wishes outright ignored by individuals who had no involvement whatsoever in their creation or conversion. It's even less trust-inspiring when they are the leader of a major community hub that has it's own explicit rules meant to prevent such things. If the people in charge can't be trusted, it doesn't set a good example for anyone else in the community. It's a small group of individuals who openly represent the community that are giving it a bad name and are seemingly oblivious to how they are perceived by outsiders. "Doing it for the good of the community" or to "bring attention to a modder's work" is a smokescreen that is often conveniently used to help with one's own agenda or to help cover themselves from any open challenges.

I know for a fact that BCers are a reasonable group, even if they are more openly critical and "gimme, gimme" about some things. I also know that SFCers used to be (and somewhat still are) just like that. We used to have no organization or rules when it came to credits or the sharing of work, and even less respect regarding an author's wishes. That has since changed and SFC has matured - we have fewer people around and less rampant egotism and stupidity than we used to (I think). Part of the reason things in SFC are more smoothly handled is because we don't have a lot of outright rules or strict guidelines that can conflict or confuse people. Lots of rules also tends to breed lots of rebellious attitudes since people will want to find ways around them - humans are naturally rebellious and don't like authority. SFC is also site-oriented, with most modders having their own personal sites for distributing their work and expressing themselves more freely.

BC, on the other hand, is inherently and unavoidably going to be a lot less stringent. They have a larger group of people and a wider range and a lot more diversity. They are also focused mainly around just two sites (BCU and BCFiles), so everything is going to be more abundant and centralized. With so much going on and so many people centered around a small area, there is a lot less personal interaction and understanding going on. Naturally, they aren't going to hold the same standards regarding credits and author permissions. This isn't helped by the fact that some individuals promote the unwritten rule of "if the author can't be contacted, then just post it anyway with his name listed", which is definitely going to be corrupted and misused as an open invitation to do whatever one wants.

That is the underlying reason why there are so many perceived inter-community conflicts. Each side has their own way of doing things and takes different approaches and viewpoints regarding how credits and management are concerned. Until that issue can be smoothed over, there are doubtlessly going to be a lot more arguments and model restrictions.

...

We can all toss around new ideas for credit control, ship management, distribution methods and so on. The simple fact of the matter is, the only sure way to avoid any problems is to keep the ships to yourself. Exclusive model access? File format encryption? Password protection? Long drawn out decompiling methods? It all suffers from a key flaw - if it's online and open for download, then it can and will be gotten around. Paramount may own anything converted to .mod, it may not - quite frankly, that point is moot. The odds of them coming down on the community and taking away our little ships and cracking us over the head with them for being impudent are slim to nil. It's bad publicity and the moment they alienate the modding community, they ruin any chance of Trek games living on past their normal lifespan. As long as we don't make money off the things, then we should be in the clear.

The same goes for anyone who takes that "mod files aren't the author's anymore" bit as a free ticket to do whatever they want. The moment someone starts doing that, is the moment modders will stop releasing anything and cutting everyone out of the loop wholesale. Anyone who doesn't respect the author's creations will get found out sooner or later and will be dealt with accordingly. That's the one constant in the modding world.

I've made suggestions to others to start experimenting with their own "mod use policy". Not necessarily because it's fool proof (far from it), but because it does tend to work. I've found that people pay more attention to well-written rules and jovial threats of poodle...er...wolf feeding frenzies than simply putting one's name in a text file. Give someone a loud and over-the-top statement, and they'll be more inclined to at least consider the rules and at most, respect them. I also tend to restrict where my ships are posted for the very reasons that have been plaguing others so much that they end up leaving. You really only have three options - either don't release anything, release ships as free-reign, or be restrictive about where your work is posted and what is done to them and to limit who is involved. Anything else is detrimental to the community as a whole and in the end, is just so much wasted time and effort.
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Offline CaptainTombs

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2006, 07:00:46 am »
all we can really do is do what we've been doing now but make sure credits and that are given appropiatly if there are no credits then no upload to anywhere, and maybe a modelling authorisation process of sorts can be made like look at the model first before upload to make sure its not someone elses work
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Offline S31-Riptide

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2006, 07:03:36 am »
I know me and Fallen Warrior have had a couple debates on this one... and have brused heads to prove it...


I personally believe that if you are restricting the who how and what... that you are not making models for the fun of gaming... but the stroking of your ego....  I do, to some degree, modeling, but I'm mainly a modder and scripter.. I'm an open source kinda guy... Most modders are more then willing to give credit where credit is due... but there will always be some that won't modders and modelers alike!  That little rude minority... oh well.  Hell I've had some models put up on BattleClinic without me knowing... but as long as someone will use them... so be it!  

If your models are never seen they willl never be appriciated.


I am now quoting the Great Cozbo....
Quote
If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.



Time to think about how to get down if your horse has gotten taller folks...

Offline jayvt3

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2006, 07:43:59 am »
WZ45 and FallenWarrior have read my posting and responded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Unfortunately, oh great ones, I live in Louisville Kentucky.  Virgins are in short supply.

Sorry been away folks.   Gotta find me a real J-O-B.

But seriously.  I never intended for all the legal stuff to be considered.  I feel that once you start going down that path it's only a matter of time before we have pay to play models.  Since copyrights have been brought up it does show me just how serious members take their work so it has to now be considered.   Personally I wish it wasn't so but I understand that these models are YOUR works.  They are YOUR property.  Some have made the argument that posting models in a public forum is the equivalent of a song going over the air-waves.  Well we all know what Metallica did to that with the Napster/Anti-Piracy laws.

I've always sought the least detrimental and simplest solution.  That is because in my personal character I'm simple and harmless.  Or I try to be at least.

Why don't we just form a "members only" forum from which to download and only download models?  Have the standard disclaimers posted enforce the rules and elect a senior moderator for a term and he or she can appoint their own assistants.  The kicker would be that before a model is posted, and that is where I've found the rip-offs, either the senior moderator or an assistant must review it, not to see if it "looks" good, but for and only for if it was already done by someone else:  i.e. you don't get a TMP Constitution Enterprise done with P81's 256 textures when you have the same in 1024 textures done by P81 himself.

It will be a lot of work and take time, dedication, patience, and most of all fairness. 

Thanks all for the responses.

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2006, 08:45:17 am »
so whats the deal then are people going to stop making models for sfc and BC because they end up belonging to paramount, or are we going to get back to the normal of things but be more strict, cause to tell you the truth i sick to death of seeing posts about why there not doing models anymore just because of one or five people screwing them. come on people your taking the fun out of well fun.
Star Trek: Unity
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Star Trek Unity (Fanfic with pictures)
Keep Credits where they belong

Sindell: One of the Anla-Shok has acted inappropriately and must be punished, perhaps even expelled.
G'Kar: What was his crime?
Sindell: Staying alive!
G'Kar: Curious. Until now, I hadn't known it was a crime.

Offline Red_Green

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2006, 09:12:48 am »
so whats the deal then are people going to stop making models for sfc and BC because they end up belonging to paramount, or are we going to get back to the normal of things but be more strict, cause to tell you the truth i sick to death of seeing posts about why there not doing models anymore just because of one or five people screwing them. come on people your taking the fun out of well fun.

I can only speak for myself. There will always be a ton of models for free download, I wouldn't be too worried about that. Myself I now feel that if I have invested 50+ hours of my time in a model and its an original design unrelated to any show, I am using it strictly for renders. I feel most who would download a ship don't appreciate want went into it. I recall reading someone had said that they wouldn't bother to d/l a ship if they needed to convert it into mod form because it wouldn't be worth the hassle. That conversion process would take 5 minutes or less. If people think that is too much effort, I can't see me spending 50 hours making a model for free download. Another point I have is I rarely play any games using even my own models, cause my time is spent making them. I do enjoy making them but like anything else there is a degree of frustration at time when things don't go write.

A modeler should be able to keep a few models for himself/herself without taking a bunch of grief about it.



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Offline CaptainTombs

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 09:25:07 am »
im getting confused on this whole subject, first its about models being  convereted but given no credit to the original maker, then its become about the whole community and now its about personal appreciation, i respect every single model maker here for the fact that they make outstanding models low poly for SFC3, my way of appreciation is by crediting them if i make a kitbash using there work, but i allways make sure that they can get the original model and know who modelled it, its like what FW has been saying these late posts have been about taking the fun out of SFC and making models if you dont want to release a model then dont release it its up to that sole person if he or she wants to, also couldnt there be a sort of system where one votes his or her appreciation and till that number is reached it cant be downloaded.

either way this is my last post on the subject as im getting confused to the point of a janeway headache rofl, its up to the maker really dont release or do release make some sort of restriction or dont bother at all, but to get to the point of paying for a model is stupid plus what would the price be $50 higher or low cost as if where getting to that point where we pay for new models to be downloaded then it takes the whole fun and point of playing the game and playing your favourite ship

well thats it from me, like i say tho i respect every modellor here and i hope they make even more awesome models as without them there is no fun for the game and we'd be stuck with stock models
Star Trek: Unity
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Star Trek Unity (Fanfic with pictures)
Keep Credits where they belong

Sindell: One of the Anla-Shok has acted inappropriately and must be punished, perhaps even expelled.
G'Kar: What was his crime?
Sindell: Staying alive!
G'Kar: Curious. Until now, I hadn't known it was a crime.

Offline Red_Green

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2006, 10:50:56 am »
I didn't mean it to sound like personal appreciation. I really do not want Paramount to own all my models, wether they ever use them or not, bottom line. Regardless of the reasons. It needn't be justified. I think its approaching whining when you have hundreds of models you can use for free and  your worried about a few that are not available. Many of these models are too high poly for game use anyway. I saw you post in another thread telling someone that this forum is only for models for game use. I don't agree with that. If I show a WIP, other modelers may benifit by seeing the process. If models are free it is unfair to place demands on what we can post and what we can't post. Another thing, were individuals so my reasons for not making a model available may be entirely different than someone elses reasons.


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Spoken by Harper in a 1st season episode of Andromeda.

"Pesimism is not a survival trait"

Offline S31-Riptide

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2006, 11:08:31 am »
Quote
Personally I wish it wasn't so but I understand that these models are YOUR works.  They are YOUR property.
  Here comes the chicken and the egg....  So you make a beautiful model (which all of you here do).... What good is a model if it is not used?  If it does not reach it's full potential in game?  If no one can fly it?  Simple question? No.

Sedition, is my work.... The Comunity's property... the second it goes up for download by the creator (IMHO) it becomes freeware
Unity, I work on... The Comunity's property... the second it goes up for download by the creator (IMHO) it becomes freeware

How can I say... here it is!!!  Don't touch it!!! 

It all depends on the following question....

Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?

If you are doing it so others can enjoy the game they are playing, then you are doing it for the community, my hats off to you!

If you are doing it so others will say, he does nice work but there are all these strings attached, not worth me putting it into my mod... then you are doing it for your own ego and control issues (IMHO)


If I want to start up a new mod and start it off with 50 ships per race (SFC3)thats 4 playable races (Sedition has 7 races currently), thats 200 ship models... then there are 4bases 1 defense platform model per race 5 X 4 races = 20  bringing the grand total up to 220 then there are the miscelanious models... planets astroids etc... another 20 ish?? sound fair? 240 models.
Now lets just say, if you are lucky, that you find all the models you want and there are 50 modelers that produced that grand total of 240 models... that is 50 emails... 50 thank you's in reply if they don't ask tons of questions as to the use of the models, mod info etc... then you have 300 players screaming at you for a campaign, theres beta testing, there is debate on rules... not even getting to the actual modding aspect or scripting aspect of it all.  It gets tiresome for sure... I've done it many a many of times... and then heaven for bid you have a modeler that forgets they gave you permission to use there models... and your latest mod get pulled down from download sites because of it.... hmmmmmmmmmmm  then you must ask yourself... WHY DO I MOD???  Then you remember all the fun you had playing it with good friends, the competition and more!

The biggest compliment that a Modeler can recieve (because modders don't like crappy models either!!! lol) from a Modder is for them to put a model you created into a mod!  

Quote
but to get to the point of paying for a model is stupid plus what would the price be $50 higher or low cost as if where getting to that point where we pay for new models to be downloaded then it takes the whole fun and point of playing the game and playing your favourite ship
If it ever gets to this point then no one will mod... maybe the modders would charge the modellers for product placement lol

It's all in good debate... we all have our oppinions... sometimes I have 2 or 3 confilicting ones lmao!

<S>


Offline CaptainTombs

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2006, 12:46:55 pm »
I didn't mean it to sound like personal appreciation. I really do not want Paramount to own all my models, wether they ever use them or not, bottom line. Regardless of the reasons. It needn't be justified. I think its approaching whining when you have hundreds of models you can use for free and  your worried about a few that are not available. Many of these models are too high poly for game use anyway. I saw you post in another thread telling someone that this forum is only for models for game use. I don't agree with that. If I show a WIP, other modelers may benifit by seeing the process. If models are free it is unfair to place demands on what we can post and what we can't post. Another thing, were individuals so my reasons for not making a model available may be entirely different than someone elses reasons.

it is tho this forum is meant for SFC models, his was a way high poly fighter that cant be used in game, and thats what the Art and Render forum is for, thats the way i see it either way

Starfleet Command Model and sub forums=All Starfleet Command in game models 1,2,3 Wip's are okay aslong as they pertain to an ingame.

Community Art & Renderings=High Poly Models Renders and Art

thats the way i see it and thats what i meant by it, if your making a High Poly model when the game can only play low poly how can that help ?
Star Trek: Unity
"Recycling the Old to build the new ships of the Future"

Star Trek Unity (Fanfic with pictures)
Keep Credits where they belong

Sindell: One of the Anla-Shok has acted inappropriately and must be punished, perhaps even expelled.
G'Kar: What was his crime?
Sindell: Staying alive!
G'Kar: Curious. Until now, I hadn't known it was a crime.

Offline Sandman3D

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Re: As my old 1SG used to say...
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2006, 01:07:00 pm »
To be perfectly honest, the only reason I'm not stricter with my models is that I really don't feel that anyone would bother ripping my stuff off. Why rip me off when there are much better models out there. :skeptic:

But, as to why we do this, there is for everyone, a bit ego involved. We like being told we are modelling gods...we don't want to hear that the phaser strips are too wide, the photon launcher is a micron to small, etc. ;D ;D (Maybe I'll change my credit to Model by His Extremely Talented Exaultedness Sandman3D :rofl:) Seriously though, we wouldn't post 'em if we weren't proud of 'em...remember that the next time you feel like telling someone starting out, or even a veteran, that the thing they spent 50+ hours making is crap, or looks funny. My request regarding models is simple...if you use it or modify it, give me credit...you don't even have to ask, just give me credit for my work. 8) If I have something I don't want around, it won't be released. ;)

As to modelers deciding to model for renders only...it's a natural progression. You learn the basics with low-poly modeling, then graduate to high poly. I myself am gonna try a high poly model soon...the Saratoga from Space: Above and Beyond. ;D That doesn't mean I won't be doing low poly stuff, just gonna be longer between releases. :P

Anyway, my $0.02
"Proudly you gathered, rank on rank to war,
As you heard God's message from afar;
All you had hoped for, all you had, you gave
To save mankind-yourself you scorned to save."