Topic: As my old 1SG used to say...

[jayvt3]

...If the boot fits.  Its going up your ass!. 
Now what does this bit of old military vernacular have to do with this forum?  Glad you asked.  It has everything to do with it and nothing to do with it.  If it applies to you then you are, as they say in civilian law states, been given fair warning.  If it doesn't then pass it by and continue the mission.  But you wonder what has brought this up and why here?

Well allow me to explain as simply as my limited intelligence can.  Bear with me now cause I did graduate from a Kentucky public school.  English as a second language you know.

First up to bat.  The plagiarizing of Models.  Yes I know that this has been discussed and argued and discussed again but whether anyone wants to admit it or not it is a SERIOUS problem.  Why?  Well I don't think Paramount or whoever owns the rights to the franchise is gonna go off the deep end and demand royalties or fees for licensing of the manufacture of models.  It is just galling to go to battleclinic and download four differently named and credited models just to find out two are just lo-res copies and the third is blatantly miscredited in the readme file. 
If Hig Hurtenflurst were dead that high pitch whine you hear would be him.

Now on the flip side of this tarnished coin is the abandonment of this forum by some very very talented individuals.  The last one to leave wrote this...
                          "The truth is i can't trust people i don't know who will have free access to my models to do the right thing.
I have found web pages and file host with my models on them who have dropped the readme files from my model files, and even replaced them with other peoples names or their own names. This is unacceptable for me and is the reason why i cant make models and give them out for free now.
it's sad that a few Greedy people have killed the fun and Enjoyment for us, i wish it was not like this..."

Now I've d/l allot from this guy.  Way back in the Taldren Forum days and I will miss his work.  So can anyone find the magic word in his letter???

Well for those of you that are intellectual giants but moral midgets(and i am not in anyway implying that the vertically challenged are morally bankrupt but sometimes i wonder...).  The word is TRUTH.

Thats right!  Truth!  Truth is people have been posting individual models from model packs to rise their score or in the Battlestar Galactica section putting the included names on the same Battlestar and reposting it as a work done in spirit.  The truth is that is called fraud.
My old 1SG, oh and to those who do not understand the abbreviation 1SG, it means FIRST SERGEANT.  The senior Non-Commissioned Officer of a Company, for you leg mofos, or Battery, for us mighty men of the King of Battle.  I know some knucklehead was thinking some StarGate crap.  As I was saying.  My old 1SG used to say other things like "If you can't fix it don't f*ck with it."  Well I got a very simple fix for this and it goes to this motto of the Army's Community/Family Services, "We take care of our own." 

That's right we take care of our own.  We need to as a community forum to start looking after, supporting, constructively critiquing(did i spell that right???)and yes vigilantly guarding our work, our friends work and our character...our moral character.
Stealing is stealing whether by act or thought and if you know of it and do nothing then what kind schmuck are you?

Some of you will be offended by this.  I don't apologise.
Some of you will pass this by and not care.  I wish you well.
Some of you will go off the the deep end and become the modelling gestapo.  I say you people need to get a life.
Some of you will contact SkinMan, Atra, P81, and others that have left and tell them that it's o-k to come back because we got good folks herethat will look out for you.  Because it's the right thing to do.

All I can say is Thank You Jesus that this forum is not as ate up from the floor up as th fan fiction forum.  Now those SOB's got issues.

[Darkdrone]

...If the boot fits.  Its going up your ass!. 
Now what does this bit of old military vernacular have to do with this forum?  Glad you asked.  It has everything to do with it and nothing to do with it.  If it applies to you then you are, as they say in civilian law states, been given fair warning.  If it doesn't then pass it by and continue the mission.  But you wonder what has brought this up and why here?

Well allow me to explain as simply as my limited intelligence can.  Bear with me now cause I did graduate from a Kentucky public school.  English as a second language you know.

First up to bat.  The plagiarizing of Models.  Yes I know that this has been discussed and argued and discussed again but whether anyone wants to admit it or not it is a SERIOUS problem.  Why?  Well I don't think Paramount or whoever owns the rights to the franchise is gonna go off the deep end and demand royalties or fees for licensing of the manufacture of models.  It is just galling to go to battleclinic and download four differently named and credited models just to find out two are just lo-res copies and the third is blatantly miscredited in the readme file. 
If Hig Hurtenflurst were dead that high pitch whine you hear would be him.

Now on the flip side of this tarnished coin is the abandonment of this forum by some very very talented individuals.  The last one to leave wrote this...
                          "The truth is i can't trust people i don't know who will have free access to my models to do the right thing.
I have found web pages and file host with my models on them who have dropped the readme files from my model files, and even replaced them with other peoples names or their own names. This is unacceptable for me and is the reason why i cant make models and give them out for free now.
it's sad that a few Greedy people have killed the fun and Enjoyment for us, i wish it was not like this..."

Now I've d/l allot from this guy.  Way back in the Taldren Forum days and I will miss his work.  So can anyone find the magic word in his letter???

Well for those of you that are intellectual giants but moral midgets(and i am not in anyway implying that the vertically challenged are morally bankrupt but sometimes i wonder...).  The word is TRUTH.

Thats right!  Truth!  Truth is people have been posting individual models from model packs to rise their score or in the Battlestar Galactica section putting the included names on the same Battlestar and reposting it as a work done in spirit.  The truth is that is called fraud.
My old 1SG, oh and to those who do not understand the abbreviation 1SG, it means FIRST SERGEANT.  The senior Non-Commissioned Officer of a Company, for you leg mofos, or Battery, for us mighty men of the King of Battle.  I know some knucklehead was thinking some StarGate crap.  As I was saying.  My old 1SG used to say other things like "If you can't fix it don't f*ck with it."  Well I got a very simple fix for this and it goes to this motto of the Army's Community/Family Services, "We take care of our own." 

That's right we take care of our own.  We need to as a community forum to start looking after, supporting, constructively critiquing(did i spell that right???)and yes vigilantly guarding our work, our friends work and our character...our moral character.
Stealing is stealing whether by act or thought and if you know of it and do nothing then what kind schmuck are you?

Some of you will be offended by this.  I don't apologise.
Some of you will pass this by and not care.  I wish you well.
Some of you will go off the the deep end and become the modelling gestapo.  I say you people need to get a life.
Some of you will contact SkinMan, Atra, P81, and others that have left and tell them that it's o-k to come back because we got good folks herethat will look out for you.  Because it's the right thing to do.

All I can say is Thank You Jesus that this forum is not as ate up from the floor up as th fan fiction forum.  Now those SOB's got issues.

it comes down to one thing if u put your models online then it will be taken,reworked,and other things thats what always happens
if you dont want your stuff to be used like it or take the change its going to be saaid someone but u did it
dont post it

i had this verything happen this last 2 weeks in the bc forums someone took some of my work and said its theys
my new rule is no more bc release`s from now on and no porting of my ships to that game

Darkdrone

[Fedman NCC-3758]

Well first jay, thank you for your service to your country.

Eventually there will be a way to code certain files within a model that will prevent it's alteration or even it's use if tried.  But human nature being what it is, there will always be those who will try.  It's regretable, despicable behaviour. Then again, why do people steal the poor boxes in churches?

[jayvt3]

well thank you both for responding.  to be honest i was wondering how many would and what would be said.  i am a little disapointed though with the lack of interest in the subject of model stealing.

i have an idea.   DarkDrone, you Fredman and i could become a modelling spanish inquistion.  all we need is a comfy chair.

[E_Look]

It isn't that people aren't interested... it's that lots of us don't know what to do, as we are neither modelers or coders.  But since you have stepped up to bat, I support you and while I am mainly familiar with some old models, I'll let you know if I catch anything... fishy (sorry).

[Fedman NCC-3758]

well thank you both for responding.  to be honest i was wondering how many would and what would be said.  i am a little disapointed though with the lack of interest in the subject of model stealing.

i have an idea.   DarkDrone, you Fredman and i could become a modelling spanish inquistion.  all we need is a comfy chair.

Only if I get to build the dungeons.........

Muhahahaha....

[intermech]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

[CaptainTombs]

Credits shouldnt be altered full stop who ever does that is morally wrong and needs throwing into the brig and given a beating by a klingon and a few pain sticks to boot, i kitbash models but i always make sure to give credit to the original maker as i allways say dont praise me praise the original modellor for there original piece.

[jayvt3]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

I don't really agree with the noncoversion method as it would leave a lot of novice model maker and the pure gamers, i fall into the latter category, out in the cold sorta speak.  i have no idea as to convert from milkshape or Maya and some fool would start posting in CAD-CAM.  I would just rather shoot my hard drive than to deal with it.  As for the copy-writing Thu111's uses a system that before you are able to use it you have to agree basically to not plagerise him.  WickedZombie uses death threats and Atra started using really silly passwords like "bush must die" and "Kerry is god" in his work.  To be honest I've seen Atra's stuff plagiarised and nothing of WZ's.  Looks like death threats work.

I don't suggest that model maker start seeking legal representation for their work.  Unless of course it is used to make a profit without their consent.  This especially should go toward the model makers no longer with us in forum or in health.  Ripping off Mackie or Atra is the same as ripping off Shakespeare or Voltaire.  And no I am not comparing either one one of them knuckleheads to Mackie or Atra.

I merely would like us as a forum to start by just simply looking out for one another.  We have great talent here but sadly we have lost great talent as well.  
Now don't get me wrong.  I have d/l models from WZ, Atra and others did a little personal tweaking, added a phaser bank here and a new registry there but these models STAY ON MY HARD DRIVE.  My portable H-D to be exact.  I use them whenever I feel the urge to see a Lexington Class Command Cruiser or a TOS Yorktown just sailing along.  They are for my personal use and not public display.   Now one day if WZ ever gets away from his blood thirsting chihuahuas i might send him one that I've tweaked just to see if he finds it acceptable.   If not oh well it's still gonna be in my game and not in the Fed section of BattleClinic.

To be honest this stems from a personal trait of mine.  I really don't care if someone takes credit for my work, GOD will judge the works of my life at the time of His choosing, but I will not let someone suffer so others may profit.

So thanks for the feedback everyone and please keep it coming.  I feel that the more who view my original post even if they don't respond will keep an eye out for each other and to the low down, yellow belly, lily livered model thieves all I can say is here in Kentucky hanging is still legal.
Somebody get a rope!!!!!!!!!!

[intermech]

One more suggestion, never hurts to brainstorm. From what I have seen, SFC3files.com seems to be the center of attention for model posts. You get alot of BC and Armada crossovers because the sites are linked. What if we got with SFC3Files and helped them compile a list of known model theives. Have them make it as a link right up there next to the downloads, or even front and center. Other sites could do the same. This would not undo the wrongs of the stolen model, but it would show people that this community watches out for its own, and model thieves are not so annonymous as they may think. Of course this idea needs alot of work, but I am throwing it out there.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

One more suggestion, never hurts to brainstorm. From what I have seen, SFC3files.com seems to be the center of attention for model posts. You get alot of BC and Armada crossovers because the sites are linked. What if we got with SFC3Files and helped them compile a list of known model theives. Have them make it as a link right up there next to the downloads, or even front and center. Other sites could do the same. This would not undo the wrongs of the stolen model, but it would show people that this community watches out for its own, and model thieves are not so annonymous as they may think. Of course this idea needs alot of work, but I am throwing it out there.

Excellent idea.

Make'em pay by banning them from the sites!

[Red_Green]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

Until a thread posted about a week ago asking if modelers would be willing to donate their models to a new SFC game. I was unaware that once a ship was converted to mod that it was Star Treks. As I result I won't be converting any further models to .mod format. Looks like I am switching to wall papers. In effect I already donated my share.

Copyright law since the internet has changed somewhat. Due to the fact that so much new material gets posted instantly, there is something in place that as soon as a new idea appears in any format, be it picture or whatever. That idea belongs to the original poster.

[Jad]

As a modeller i can relate to this that the hard work, effort and so many hours spent creating wot is your portraition of the work you are doing is finished and u are satisfied then its a great feeling, modelling is quite enjoyable and is a great hobby of mine, i emulate a modeller called Ed Giddins who is my favorite modeller for those who have heard of him and i share my beleifs with him that my models are to be shared with you only through images and not the model itself, you cant steal a picture from an art gallary and said you did it can you? therefore my models will not be for download unless i myself deem the person trustworthy... and even then i may ask for a small Pay-Pal fee which is a sort of insurance. I think most modellers out there will be able to agree with this and relate. Im new to this forums and im liking sharing my WIP's with you and recieving the comments in return, thanks for accepting me into your community. i hope we can make it a great one

[Red_Green]

Read the SFC EULA...anything created for use in SFC is allready trek property....and could be used without your permission, credit or compensation....

That quote is from a different thread. This blanket statement that any ship in mod format belongs to Star Trek does not sit well with me. What about ships that are modded for multiple games, such as Freelancer and Nexus. If a ship was modded for 1 game and later coverted to mod format, I do not see how ST could claim rights on it.

Also back to copyright law for the internet, as soon as a picture of a ship design appears on the internet, the creator of that design has rights to it. I can't see ST using any ships created in mod by a fan when they hire their own ship designers. I believe that EULA statement was meant more for kitbashes of the models originally included in the game. I would like to see the EULA statement in its entirety, can someone tell me where to find it?

So yea I think best policy is not releasing them in any game format. Releasing them in milkshape or Max format wouldn't be wise because someone might try to claim they made it in max. Then they could convert it to any number of other formats including mod.

 

[intermech]

As a modeller i can relate to this that the hard work, effort and so many hours spent creating wot is your portraition of the work you are doing is finished and u are satisfied then its a great feeling, modelling is quite enjoyable and is a great hobby of mine, i emulate a modeller called Ed Giddins who is my favorite modeller for those who have heard of him and i share my beleifs with him that my models are to be shared with you only through images and not the model itself, you cant steal a picture from an art gallary and said you did it can you? therefore my models will not be for download unless i myself deem the person trustworthy... and even then i may ask for a small Pay-Pal fee which is a sort of insurance. I think most modellers out there will be able to agree with this and relate. Im new to this forums and im liking sharing my WIP's with you and recieving the comments in return, thanks for accepting me into your community. i hope we can make it a great one

You know, I hadn't really come out and said it, but I pretty much stopped sharing models too, temporarily, at least until I get this all figured out. My Trek Models, you can have them, they are Trek, part of that universe, but I don't want any of my other stuff to be construed as Trek and therefore I loose the rights to them. I am not sure how I will tackle this. I am thinking of posting as source models, saying I don't want them converted, and then only chasing down those that I feel violate the spirit of it. Granted, models are only fun if you can get your hands on them and play around with them.

I am not going to go as far as to say I also am a victim, I try to make my Trek models with a certain amount of individuality so that people know at first glance that it is an Interstellar Machine model, but there was one instance which got particularly under my nerves. This one guy downloaded my model changed the name and the description saying that it was a kit bash (which it was not, I put a lot of hard work into the original model) and then posted it. Now, I have a free usage policy so I really shouldn't be complaining, but free usage is intended for noobies who want to kit bash and make their own dreams come true, not for someone to just change a name of a model as if I didn't pick a good one, or change the back-story as though I was not creative enough.

But on the flip-side, by posting any model and claiming it is Trek are we not doing the same thing to Gene Roddenberry? Aren't we changing up (even if in a small way) his universe that he worked so hard on, changing it to the way that we would prefer it, implying that his ideas where not quite up to snuff with what we would have liked to see. By posting a model and claiming that it is a Trek model, are we any better than B&B who drove the franchise into the ground?

As you can see, I am conflicted on the matter.

[Red_Green]

But on the flip-side, by posting any model and claiming it is Trek are we not doing the same thing to Gene Roddenberry? Aren't we changing up (even if in a small way) his universe that he worked so hard on, changing it to the way that we would prefer it, implying that his ideas where not quite up to snuff with what we would have liked to see. By posting a model and claiming that it is a Trek model, are we any better than B&B who drove the franchise into the ground?

As you can see, I am conflicted on the matter.

Interesting point.  I am actually confused on the line between SFB and Star Trek. It has been discussed in other threads so I don't want to go into it in length here. What I gathered is that technically ST has the rights to SFB as well. At any rate, I sometimes release stuff intended as non trek but it gets in a trek mod. Some of my stuff is not influence at all by Trek but just being in mod format there is  an association with Trek especially when its included among canon Trek ships. By releasing a model its almost gaurenteed at some point to get into a mod with ST ships and pick up an assaociation with Trek ships weather originally intended or not.

I want to move away from Trek. I sometimes wish that there had never been another Trek series after TOS. TOS to me was the perfect Trek and I feel that Trek got a black eye over some things that happened over the last few years.

I  have not had a problem with anyone regarding my models but I had some copying of my work online not related to modeling that has made me more aware of some of the problems I hear other modelers talking about. I don't have much time for modeling anyway. I find I enjoy doing wallpapers more than anything.

[intermech]

What if we had our own file format made?

[CaptainTombs]

it would be okay for non game ships but what about specific game files that you want to port the model into

[intermech]

only select people would have the converter
I'm trying to take our models out of the Trek copyright, but still make them available for in game use
any other ideas?

[Mr_Tricorder]

I like the converter idea.  It would effectively remove our models from the copyright clause and make the files completely useless to people we don't trust enough to give a converter too.

I've been away from the modeling forum for a while because I've been focusing on my school work.  I didn't do so hot last semester and I need to make some good headway towards my degree or I'm never going to graduate.  I finally decide to come back and I find out that people are leaving left and right for intellectual property issues.  This is really sad considering the age of the game we're supporting and the general state that Star Trek is in at present.  What we have here is a healthy community of very mature and talented people who share a common passion for 3d modeling and have contributed greatly to games like SFC, Armada 1 and 2, and Bridge Commander.  I would hate to see this community fall apart purely for external reasons.

I think coming up with our own file type, as was suggested, seems like a very good solution because not only would it protect our work, it would better define us as a community.  We could also have converters for all different games that we may want to work with, like Armada, Bridge Commander, and the up-coming Star Trek Legacy game, as well as non-trek games.

[intermech]

I am very limited in talent in reguard to programing and making pluggins for various modeling software, however, as a modder, I have learned how to work the system a little bit. What if we chose a non-copyrighted format, i.e. .dxf, .3ds, .raw, etc, and just changed the file extension. Make it our own. That way, it would look foreign, but we wouldn't have to enlist a programer to make a pluggin for every software out there.

[Mr_Tricorder]

I am very limited in talent in reguard to programing and making pluggins for various modeling software, however, as a modder, I have learned how to work the system a little bit. What if we chose a non-copyrighted format, i.e. .dxf, .3ds, .raw, etc, and just changed the file extension. Make it our own. That way, it would look foreign, but we wouldn't have to enlist a programer to make a pluggin for every software out there.

Too easy

I don't have any real programming experience so I don't know how difficult it would be, but the idea of having our own file type is so we can control who can use the files through deciding who gets converters.  If you just change the extension, you've completely bypassed the need for a converter and anyone who knows what we've done can use the file.

[intermech]

That is a great point Mr. Tricorder.
That is why we would keep it a secret.

Yesterday i tried opening the mod format in note pad, taking a part of the file out rendering it unusable.
But when I put it back in using the same method, it was still unusable. So that failed.

Another option might just be passworded zip files.
That would have the same effect.
But then you have to anwser every stinking e-mail.

[Sandman3D]

Let's face it guys...we've been over this a million times, but there really isn't much we can do. The bad guys will find a way...and how would we determine who got a converter? What about the guy that buys SFC out of the bargain bin and realizes that it's be cool to have better models in game? Do we tell him no, he's not a part of the elite.?

What I'm getting at is, we would kill the community doing that. There are a lot of ppl that use our models the right way that we never even meet cause they dont post on the forums. Do we deny them access? Then the community dies.

I look at it this way...ST, SW, SG etc. are copyrighted entities that we build free models of. If they are out there they are fair game. If I have something I want to protect, it will be original and NOT in .mod format, or a high poly model of one of the above mentioned.

All we can really do is what we have been doing...keep an eye on each others work and speak up if someone is stealing.

[intermech]

Well said. I really do appriciate that position. I personally feel the same way, I am just looking for alternatives that are better then loosing good modellers. But I think you are right.

[jayvt3]

Looks like I opened a can of worm here and they just be squiggling everwhere!

I don't agree with a pay-pal system period.  Wicked Zombie, Atra and DTW have great models but I am not gonna pay for them it crosses the line of being a hobby to being a profession.  Would anyone here pay to be a member of Dynaverse or BattleClinic???

The conversion process and who gets it is flawed because if Atra used converter A and DTW uses converter B and DarkDrone uses converter C...see where this is going?

Interstellar Machine summed up the spirit of my idea like this "All we can really do is what we have been doing...keep an eye on each others work and speak up if someone is stealing." 

I think someone should contact BattleClinic and SFC3 Files to have them start a proper uniformed sorting technique.  Such like this example:
FED_ _TMP_ _FCA_ _Constitution Class_ _USS-Exeter_ _by Jay

This is how I have my files stored by race, era, ship type, class, name of ship and the primary model maker.  I think its simple and it has helped me cut down on having multiples of the same ship.

That's my nickel.

Good modelling all.

[Jad]

Im thinking off pobbile, giving them the ship but group the whole ship together in max, all the parts so that parts are not changable and add a little unique sign on the ship so we kno its outs mehb

[Red_Green]

Looks like I opened a can of worm here and they just be squiggling everwhere!

Wheres the lid. Better put the cover on tight this time     Either that or time to go fishing. 

[Starforce2]

Why do we need to defiane our  communities by game?  BC, SFC, armada,  legacy...whatever, it's all trek, thus why can't it be one community? Perhaps treating it as such would lessen such issues.

[Wicked Zombie]

I've repeatedly heard comments about how nobody wants to share their work between communities because some have shown themselves to be untrustworthy or disrespectful. I used to think those were the usual exaggerations (like the "SFC hates BC" chestnut that's often brought out when nothing better will suffice). Of course, that opinion changed once my own work suffered the same fate.

It's not very trust-inspiring to have one's site usurped, their files reposted somewhere else, and their explicit wishes outright ignored by individuals who had no involvement whatsoever in their creation or conversion. It's even less trust-inspiring when they are the leader of a major community hub that has it's own explicit rules meant to prevent such things. If the people in charge can't be trusted, it doesn't set a good example for anyone else in the community. It's a small group of individuals who openly represent the community that are giving it a bad name and are seemingly oblivious to how they are perceived by outsiders. "Doing it for the good of the community" or to "bring attention to a modder's work" is a smokescreen that is often conveniently used to help with one's own agenda or to help cover themselves from any open challenges.

I know for a fact that BCers are a reasonable group, even if they are more openly critical and "gimme, gimme" about some things. I also know that SFCers used to be (and somewhat still are) just like that. We used to have no organization or rules when it came to credits or the sharing of work, and even less respect regarding an author's wishes. That has since changed and SFC has matured - we have fewer people around and less rampant egotism and stupidity than we used to (I think). Part of the reason things in SFC are more smoothly handled is because we don't have a lot of outright rules or strict guidelines that can conflict or confuse people. Lots of rules also tends to breed lots of rebellious attitudes since people will want to find ways around them - humans are naturally rebellious and don't like authority. SFC is also site-oriented, with most modders having their own personal sites for distributing their work and expressing themselves more freely.

BC, on the other hand, is inherently and unavoidably going to be a lot less stringent. They have a larger group of people and a wider range and a lot more diversity. They are also focused mainly around just two sites (BCU and BCFiles), so everything is going to be more abundant and centralized. With so much going on and so many people centered around a small area, there is a lot less personal interaction and understanding going on. Naturally, they aren't going to hold the same standards regarding credits and author permissions. This isn't helped by the fact that some individuals promote the unwritten rule of "if the author can't be contacted, then just post it anyway with his name listed", which is definitely going to be corrupted and misused as an open invitation to do whatever one wants.

That is the underlying reason why there are so many perceived inter-community conflicts. Each side has their own way of doing things and takes different approaches and viewpoints regarding how credits and management are concerned. Until that issue can be smoothed over, there are doubtlessly going to be a lot more arguments and model restrictions.

...

We can all toss around new ideas for credit control, ship management, distribution methods and so on. The simple fact of the matter is, the only sure way to avoid any problems is to keep the ships to yourself. Exclusive model access? File format encryption? Password protection? Long drawn out decompiling methods? It all suffers from a key flaw - if it's online and open for download, then it can and will be gotten around. Paramount may own anything converted to .mod, it may not - quite frankly, that point is moot. The odds of them coming down on the community and taking away our little ships and cracking us over the head with them for being impudent are slim to nil. It's bad publicity and the moment they alienate the modding community, they ruin any chance of Trek games living on past their normal lifespan. As long as we don't make money off the things, then we should be in the clear.

The same goes for anyone who takes that "mod files aren't the author's anymore" bit as a free ticket to do whatever they want. The moment someone starts doing that, is the moment modders will stop releasing anything and cutting everyone out of the loop wholesale. Anyone who doesn't respect the author's creations will get found out sooner or later and will be dealt with accordingly. That's the one constant in the modding world.

I've made suggestions to others to start experimenting with their own "mod use policy". Not necessarily because it's fool proof (far from it), but because it does tend to work. I've found that people pay more attention to well-written rules and jovial threats of poodle...er...wolf feeding frenzies than simply putting one's name in a text file. Give someone a loud and over-the-top statement, and they'll be more inclined to at least consider the rules and at most, respect them. I also tend to restrict where my ships are posted for the very reasons that have been plaguing others so much that they end up leaving. You really only have three options - either don't release anything, release ships as free-reign, or be restrictive about where your work is posted and what is done to them and to limit who is involved. Anything else is detrimental to the community as a whole and in the end, is just so much wasted time and effort.

[CaptainTombs]

all we can really do is do what we've been doing now but make sure credits and that are given appropiatly if there are no credits then no upload to anywhere, and maybe a modelling authorisation process of sorts can be made like look at the model first before upload to make sure its not someone elses work

[S31-Riptide]

I know me and Fallen Warrior have had a couple debates on this one... and have brused heads to prove it...


I personally believe that if you are restricting the who how and what... that you are not making models for the fun of gaming... but the stroking of your ego....  I do, to some degree, modeling, but I'm mainly a modder and scripter.. I'm an open source kinda guy... Most modders are more then willing to give credit where credit is due... but there will always be some that won't modders and modelers alike!  That little rude minority... oh well.  Hell I've had some models put up on BattleClinic without me knowing... but as long as someone will use them... so be it!  

If your models are never seen they willl never be appriciated.


I am now quoting the Great Cozbo....

If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.If you want to treat models like copyrighted intellectual property, then don't put them up for free download.

Time to think about how to get down if your horse has gotten taller folks...

[jayvt3]

WZ45 and FallenWarrior have read my posting and responded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Unfortunately, oh great ones, I live in Louisville Kentucky.  Virgins are in short supply.

Sorry been away folks.   Gotta find me a real J-O-B.

But seriously.  I never intended for all the legal stuff to be considered.  I feel that once you start going down that path it's only a matter of time before we have pay to play models.  Since copyrights have been brought up it does show me just how serious members take their work so it has to now be considered.   Personally I wish it wasn't so but I understand that these models are YOUR works.  They are YOUR property.  Some have made the argument that posting models in a public forum is the equivalent of a song going over the air-waves.  Well we all know what Metallica did to that with the Napster/Anti-Piracy laws.

I've always sought the least detrimental and simplest solution.  That is because in my personal character I'm simple and harmless.  Or I try to be at least.

Why don't we just form a "members only" forum from which to download and only download models?  Have the standard disclaimers posted enforce the rules and elect a senior moderator for a term and he or she can appoint their own assistants.  The kicker would be that before a model is posted, and that is where I've found the rip-offs, either the senior moderator or an assistant must review it, not to see if it "looks" good, but for and only for if it was already done by someone else:  i.e. you don't get a TMP Constitution Enterprise done with P81's 256 textures when you have the same in 1024 textures done by P81 himself.

It will be a lot of work and take time, dedication, patience, and most of all fairness. 

Thanks all for the responses.

[CaptainTombs]

so whats the deal then are people going to stop making models for sfc and BC because they end up belonging to paramount, or are we going to get back to the normal of things but be more strict, cause to tell you the truth i sick to death of seeing posts about why there not doing models anymore just because of one or five people screwing them. come on people your taking the fun out of well fun.

[Red_Green]

so whats the deal then are people going to stop making models for sfc and BC because they end up belonging to paramount, or are we going to get back to the normal of things but be more strict, cause to tell you the truth i sick to death of seeing posts about why there not doing models anymore just because of one or five people screwing them. come on people your taking the fun out of well fun.

I can only speak for myself. There will always be a ton of models for free download, I wouldn't be too worried about that. Myself I now feel that if I have invested 50+ hours of my time in a model and its an original design unrelated to any show, I am using it strictly for renders. I feel most who would download a ship don't appreciate want went into it. I recall reading someone had said that they wouldn't bother to d/l a ship if they needed to convert it into mod form because it wouldn't be worth the hassle. That conversion process would take 5 minutes or less. If people think that is too much effort, I can't see me spending 50 hours making a model for free download. Another point I have is I rarely play any games using even my own models, cause my time is spent making them. I do enjoy making them but like anything else there is a degree of frustration at time when things don't go write.

A modeler should be able to keep a few models for himself/herself without taking a bunch of grief about it.

[CaptainTombs]

im getting confused on this whole subject, first its about models being  convereted but given no credit to the original maker, then its become about the whole community and now its about personal appreciation, i respect every single model maker here for the fact that they make outstanding models low poly for SFC3, my way of appreciation is by crediting them if i make a kitbash using there work, but i allways make sure that they can get the original model and know who modelled it, its like what FW has been saying these late posts have been about taking the fun out of SFC and making models if you dont want to release a model then dont release it its up to that sole person if he or she wants to, also couldnt there be a sort of system where one votes his or her appreciation and till that number is reached it cant be downloaded.

either way this is my last post on the subject as im getting confused to the point of a janeway headache rofl, its up to the maker really dont release or do release make some sort of restriction or dont bother at all, but to get to the point of paying for a model is stupid plus what would the price be $50 higher or low cost as if where getting to that point where we pay for new models to be downloaded then it takes the whole fun and point of playing the game and playing your favourite ship

well thats it from me, like i say tho i respect every modellor here and i hope they make even more awesome models as without them there is no fun for the game and we'd be stuck with stock models

[Red_Green]

I didn't mean it to sound like personal appreciation. I really do not want Paramount to own all my models, wether they ever use them or not, bottom line. Regardless of the reasons. It needn't be justified. I think its approaching whining when you have hundreds of models you can use for free and  your worried about a few that are not available. Many of these models are too high poly for game use anyway. I saw you post in another thread telling someone that this forum is only for models for game use. I don't agree with that. If I show a WIP, other modelers may benifit by seeing the process. If models are free it is unfair to place demands on what we can post and what we can't post. Another thing, were individuals so my reasons for not making a model available may be entirely different than someone elses reasons.

[S31-Riptide]

Personally I wish it wasn't so but I understand that these models are YOUR works.  They are YOUR property.

  Here comes the chicken and the egg....  So you make a beautiful model (which all of you here do).... What good is a model if it is not used?  If it does not reach it's full potential in game?  If no one can fly it?  Simple question? No.

Sedition, is my work.... The Comunity's property... the second it goes up for download by the creator (IMHO) it becomes freeware
Unity, I work on... The Comunity's property... the second it goes up for download by the creator (IMHO) it becomes freeware

How can I say... here it is!!!  Don't touch it!!! 

It all depends on the following question....

Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?

If you are doing it so others can enjoy the game they are playing, then you are doing it for the community, my hats off to you!

If you are doing it so others will say, he does nice work but there are all these strings attached, not worth me putting it into my mod... then you are doing it for your own ego and control issues (IMHO)


If I want to start up a new mod and start it off with 50 ships per race (SFC3)thats 4 playable races (Sedition has 7 races currently), thats 200 ship models... then there are 4bases 1 defense platform model per race 5 X 4 races = 20  bringing the grand total up to 220 then there are the miscelanious models... planets astroids etc... another 20 ish?? sound fair? 240 models.
Now lets just say, if you are lucky, that you find all the models you want and there are 50 modelers that produced that grand total of 240 models... that is 50 emails... 50 thank you's in reply if they don't ask tons of questions as to the use of the models, mod info etc... then you have 300 players screaming at you for a campaign, theres beta testing, there is debate on rules... not even getting to the actual modding aspect or scripting aspect of it all.  It gets tiresome for sure... I've done it many a many of times... and then heaven for bid you have a modeler that forgets they gave you permission to use there models... and your latest mod get pulled down from download sites because of it.... hmmmmmmmmmmm  then you must ask yourself... WHY DO I MOD???  Then you remember all the fun you had playing it with good friends, the competition and more!

The biggest compliment that a Modeler can recieve (because modders don't like crappy models either!!! lol) from a Modder is for them to put a model you created into a mod!  

but to get to the point of paying for a model is stupid plus what would the price be $50 higher or low cost as if where getting to that point where we pay for new models to be downloaded then it takes the whole fun and point of playing the game and playing your favourite ship

If it ever gets to this point then no one will mod... maybe the modders would charge the modellers for product placement lol

It's all in good debate... we all have our oppinions... sometimes I have 2 or 3 confilicting ones lmao!

<S>

[CaptainTombs]

I didn't mean it to sound like personal appreciation. I really do not want Paramount to own all my models, wether they ever use them or not, bottom line. Regardless of the reasons. It needn't be justified. I think its approaching whining when you have hundreds of models you can use for free and  your worried about a few that are not available. Many of these models are too high poly for game use anyway. I saw you post in another thread telling someone that this forum is only for models for game use. I don't agree with that. If I show a WIP, other modelers may benifit by seeing the process. If models are free it is unfair to place demands on what we can post and what we can't post. Another thing, were individuals so my reasons for not making a model available may be entirely different than someone elses reasons.

it is tho this forum is meant for SFC models, his was a way high poly fighter that cant be used in game, and thats what the Art and Render forum is for, thats the way i see it either way

Starfleet Command Model and sub forums=All Starfleet Command in game models 1,2,3 Wip's are okay aslong as they pertain to an ingame.

Community Art & Renderings=High Poly Models Renders and Art

thats the way i see it and thats what i meant by it, if your making a High Poly model when the game can only play low poly how can that help ?

[Sandman3D]

To be perfectly honest, the only reason I'm not stricter with my models is that I really don't feel that anyone would bother ripping my stuff off. Why rip me off when there are much better models out there.

But, as to why we do this, there is for everyone, a bit ego involved. We like being told we are modelling gods...we don't want to hear that the phaser strips are too wide, the photon launcher is a micron to small, etc. (Maybe I'll change my credit to Model by His Extremely Talented Exaultedness Sandman3D ) Seriously though, we wouldn't post 'em if we weren't proud of 'em...remember that the next time you feel like telling someone starting out, or even a veteran, that the thing they spent 50+ hours making is crap, or looks funny. My request regarding models is simple...if you use it or modify it, give me credit...you don't even have to ask, just give me credit for my work. If I have something I don't want around, it won't be released.

As to modelers deciding to model for renders only...it's a natural progression. You learn the basics with low-poly modeling, then graduate to high poly. I myself am gonna try a high poly model soon...the Saratoga from Space: Above and Beyond. That doesn't mean I won't be doing low poly stuff, just gonna be longer between releases.

Anyway, my $0.02

[intermech]

Anyway, my $0.02

Now you are going to start charging for your models. Affordable yes, but I never thought it would come to that!

[FoaS_XC]

Anyway, my $0.02

Now you are going to start charging for your models. Affordable yes, but I never thought it would come to that!

LOL!

[S31-Riptide]

lol too funny!

As to the  

Community Art & Renderings=High Poly Models Renders and Art

 <--- This really is not the issue... those artists don't allow there model to go on the web (atleast the intellegent ones don't!)  They allow there pictures of the models too... when it comes to models designed for game play, that is the crook of this discussion.

But, as to why we do this, there is for everyone, a bit ego involved. We like being told we are modelling gods...we don't want to hear that the phaser strips are too wide, the photon launcher is a

Trust me.... Modders get this treatment X10... and mission scripters get it the easiest...all we hear is... can you make this for me??? PLEASE!!! lol

We are all crazy for the work we do!!!

[CaptainTombs]

i was more or less saying thats what that forum is for to post renders and stuff, where it should go, and not in the SFC Models section

[Tus-XC]

It all depends on the following question....

Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?

I do it for neither Game nor Fame, i do it for the pure satisfaction of doing it.  I do it to kill time, i do it to relax, i do it because it makes me feel good doing it.  I do not do it for the community, i do not do it for others.  The only real satisfaction i get is from the process of creating.  There is that nice added bonus of the compliments, but that doesn't really do much for me, cuase if it did i would sure as hell not take 6 months to do something from start to finsh. 

In short it would be much simpler for me to not to even bother releasing or even posting renders, its much less hassle than to upload it, spec it, make sure i'ive compressed the files satisfactory so the majority can use it.  but i don't, part of me wants to give back to the community that has given me so much excitment and entertainment, so i release because i want to return the favor and do so by releasing my best, what i consider i have poured my heart, soul and charcter into in order to bring to life.   

So before you say Game or Fame you might consider the real reason, which is for me and me alone.

[Wicked Zombie]

That raises another interesting point - why even post a ship if there's going to be so many rules and regulations? Clearly, if a modder doesn't want to put up with any bull then they should just keep their work to themselves. However, if everyone started doing that then there wouldn't be much of a community. Being bitchy and egotistic regarding our work is our way of countering the criticisms and complaints and occasional insults that often spring up. It helps balance things out and give us an avenue to vent so we don't get burned out or ultimately go off on anyone for nitpicking the 3rd phaser on the starboard warp pylon being off by .0003 centimeters.

By the majority, the reason for some modders' having stringent rules isn't because we're tyrannical egomaniacs. It's just a way to catch people's attention and to show that there are people behind those creations that are for download. CGI websites have rules that require credits be listed in any images that are rendered for the very same reasons. Most of the time as long as someone asks first before releasing any altered work, a modder isn't going to bite their head off for it. I myself don't care if a ship is used in a big mod or campaign and am often surprised when I get emails asking permission to essentially fly the ship in the game it was meant for. The way I see it, if you have to download 500 megs and one of my ships just happens to be tossed in there, then it isn't going to make much of a difference. As long as the readme's intact, the whole issue is null.

I rarely see anyone do this for the shear glory and attention - those few that have, clearly aren't around anymore for obvious reasons. As Tus stated, most of us simply build the ships for the hobby aspect, something to pass the time and stage off the boredom. Some even, like me, look at building a ship as a challenge and get a sense of accomplishment when something is built and finished. That's the same mentality behind playing video games or doing a jigsaw puzzle.

Now as far as releasing those ships is concerned, and thus, running the risk of the whole "copyright, ownership, theft, etc." issue, I can't say I have a real answer to that. I could tread out the "giving back to the community" routine, but even that isn't an honest answer. I simply post the ships because I know how lame it is to be stuck with those stock models all the time. Sure, some may (and do) criticize my restrictive nature as not being a team player, or not sharing, or gods-know what other reason they've managed to conjure up for themselves. Those are often the same people who just don't get how a modder thinks and don't care about anything but getting what they want.

Who knows? Maybe on a subconscious level I even enjoy dealing with individuals who try and break the rules. Dangling the carrot, as it were. Immature, perhaps, but being dead isn't known for it's abundance of distractions.

[Anthony Scott]

 During my graphic design studies we were given a series of ethics lectures which we were taught never EVER try to pass off someone else's work as yours. That lesson manifests itself everytime that I do a poster or even a test poster because somebody somewhere will see the work and find the original artist. Plus, your standing in the community drops.

We had a student here once decide to use his classmates entire demo reel as his own, we never figured out if it was laziness, dishonesty or both. He landed a job with Activision with that demo reel but within a few days the people found out that he was not what he appeared. He was not only fired but prosecuted.

The point is, always ALWAYS give credit where it is due.

That is my 2 cents worth!

Semper Fi, Carry On

[Red_Green]

The worms got out of the can and are squiggling around again. Good too see some differing points of view. I am glad this is a community that can have differing points of view and we can discuss subjects like this and everyone give there 2 cents or nickles worth.  Much better than a Borg collective.

[jayvt3]

HEY HEY HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look I posted this topic not to bring division but a subject that has cost us and is still costing us.
But first let me answer a few questions about the models that are made.

1.  Paramount or whoever owns the Star Trek franchise does own the models that we have all seen on TV, the movies, and in games.  It means that no one can claim that joe schmoe made the uss enterprise or reliant or that god-forsaken 1701-D.  it does not mean that joe schmoe can't make the models and distribute them freely.  KEY WORD=FREELY.  No profit.  None Nada.  No means NO.
If jane doe wants a killer model of the defiant for SFC whatever or BC and says hey joe schmoe would you or could make it for me?  joe shcmoe says sure but it will be $50.  joe schmoe better be prepared to give 5% to whoever owns the franchise and game copyrights.
If it's done for free and given for free then nothing is violated.

2.  The owners of Trek know of this and other sites for models.  They really don't care about them because no one has been dumb enough to claim that the TOS TMP or TNG enterprise is their idea and unless there is a sudden public demand for SFC or BC models, several hundred thousand, then maybe they might send Frey a nice letter and WZ45 can give up his day job.

3.  This forum specifically is the heart and soul of this site PERIOD.  You honestly think Dynaverse would be around if the schmucks in fan fiction were the main event??  Now don't get me wrong I've read some really good stuff in there but for every one good story there are a dozen crappy and I mean crappy ones.  Here you actually get to see the development from a "so-so" model to a "good gracious it look so real I think the lights are blinking" model.

4.  I said it once and I get the feeling that I'm gonna have to say it again and again and again and again....I just meant for us as a forum to help one another by just looking out for one another.  That's all.  We can't change the copyrights unless someone wins a billion dollars and buys the rights to Trekdom, but we can do little things and as my father used to say "...garbage trucks don't come out of thin air, King Kong never snuck up on anybody and its always the little things that will get you."
So let's put aside the big legal ramification copyright my ass arguments and let us deal with what we can deal with.  Each other.

Oh and could somebody please tell me why when I first posted this I had -3 karma and now I got -7???

[Red_Green]

I don't think the thread got out of hand here. Regarding copyrights, Yes obviosly Star Trek related ships and redesigns based off those ships are ST property. However ships of original design and non trek remain the rights of the creator as long as not ported into a game. This is the point I wanted to make. I  just want to have a fleet of ships that I can use for wallpapers. If I made wallpapers with ST ships then ST would also have the rights to those as well, but again not with original ship designs unrelated to Trek. I get the feeling I need to distance myself from Trek altogether by moving to a non-trek SCI-FI forum where it is not assumed that everything posted is related to SFC or Trek. Anyway that is why from now on if I am working on a non-trek ship I am posting intellectual property rights in the pictures just to make it abundently clear that the ship pictured is not related to Trek and is my original work not intended for game use.

If some want to believe I am being selfish I would just like to point out that I have been a part in over 100 ships that have been released to game and spent a year making a mod for SFC that contains about 70 ships, about 1/4 of which are mine,which are not nearly as nice as the other modelers who were kind enough to allow me permission to include their ships in the mod.

I simply want something I can truly call mine and maybe even have it made up into a plastic or resin model. Call it Ego or whatever. But truth is without the ego would we have any motivation to do anything at all? Probably not. Why does anyone make a design if not to express themselves and because it is an expression or  in a way, an extension of ones selve. It is only natural to take pride in the endeavor and try to make a ship as best as one can.

[intermech]

Ship_Rods, you have completely expressed my veiw. To grow as a modeller, I feel I must expand into new territories, to where (forgive me) "no man has gone before."

[S31-Riptide]

Look I posted this topic not to bring division but a subject that has cost us and is still costing us.

To the contrary dear sir... It is better that everyone gets there points out in the open, so as to educate the new Modders and Modelers what is and what is not expected.
I am rather enjoying this discussion, though I wish the posts where shorter lol short attention span??? lol

Now Ship_Rods, you already know not to make the mistake of posting ship model files for that which you wish not to be used for anything other then art rendering... that is, IMHO the best thing a modeller can do.  I do wish you remove those disclaimers from the renderings, it so detracts from the beauty of your work!!! 

I also believe in giving credit where credit is due!  I thank all the modelers in a general statement in my mod, via the intro movie... those that give a large portion of there work to the cause even get a name mention... I encourage those that play my mod to check the readme files of any model that they really liked! I only take issue with those that put crazy, ludicris restrictions on the use of there work.  Or in just a few cases, have there work up for download then cry that people are... and get this one... ACTUALLY USING IT!!!  Crazy I know...

I know with SFC3 anyways, that we have the next generation of Modders and Modelers coming onboard... Some of the old ways and gentlemens agreements as to uses of models and mods will be revisited... some old school moddelers and modders will not like the new ways.  That is why these discussions are so necessary for us to revisit and the next gen. to understand where we come from when it comes down to models, mods, scripts etc... I say for the community, by the community!

[intermech]

Hey, remember the good old days, the New Ships Project and all that. Everything was a kitbash of the original game models. Everything matched. Everything was low poly. NOT that things were better then, just different. I think the community as a whole and individual modellers follow a general path to modelling "ascension" (shameless SG1 reference).

1. Love the game.

2. Swap ingame models around within the game.

3. Download other peoples models.

4. Aquire free or cheap modelling software and do some kitbashing.

5. Pay for some software and make your own ships.

6. Make ships more and more detailed untill they are no longer playable in the game.

7. Focus on rendering.

8. Realize you need more expensive software to render and get your ideas across.

9. Create incredibly awsome models.

10. Realize that as long as you are emulating Trek, they really aren't yours.

11. Experiment with your own style ships.

Somewhere between step 2 and step 11 you have crossed over from being a modder to a modeller. And somewhere you have forgotten that lust for the Akira with the Sovereign warp nacells and Reliant role bar that you thought you would never be able to find and without which you would never be happy.

As an observation, we are all at different stages. (I for instance am somewhere between 5 and 6). I think problems start when people skip steps or try to keep others from advancing to the next. Any thoughts on this?

[Red_Green]

Great insight Interstellar Machine. I never thought of it like that and those steps make complete sense to me. I went out of order some as I made my own models before I learned how to kitbash (if you could call my 1st ships models), only because I didn't know how to merge two files together. I think I move around bewteen the steps, partly because I have a short attention span. I still really have no clue about a lot of the aspects to this hobby, but all I ever try to do is keep impriving at my own pace. I guess I am just getting into rendering but have no ide about lighting and whatnot.

Riptide, enjoyed your comments as well and WZ puts everything so well and leveled headed. I wish I was more level headed at times, but I am what I am, a bit volitale at times but sometimes anger fuels my designs so I try to draw a positive from one of my shortcomings.
 

[S31-Riptide]

I'm still stuck on 1!!! lol
and 5.......
Moddeling is a secondary skill brought on by needs for modding, resizing, converting, making planets astroids shuttles freighters etc...
you guys always make great Flag ships, but don't spend much time on the ragged ships lol  hense my slight legitimacy in this discussion lol


Interstellar Machine you have brought some good points to light here... Post up people!!!

[intermech]

In light of what Ship_Rods said, I think I would have to rephrase my statement about skipping steps, prehaps it is when people take shortcuts, ie, stealing models to get from step 4 to step 6, that problems start. I think we should prehaps come not come from a "don't steal my models" position, but instead to one of "let us help you get to the next step yourself so that you don't have to steal models." Organized or not, maybe that is the direction that we should head.

[Bonk]

Interesting comments.

All I can say is take a look at:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Tools_and_Utilities/webmap_op_wips.zip

You cannot imagine how many hours have gone into that, its absolutely insane.... yet there it is, not a single credit or readme, download, do what you like with it. (As DarkElf had done in the past) Chances are it will always be recognisable as mine.

It still needs lots of work and improvement and will continue to evolve and grow in complexity.

Is it for my ego? Not really, but as others have expressed it is fun for me to work on and adds to the enjoyment of the game.

Another example:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Tools_and_Utilities/dbeditor_sourcecode.zip
(NuclearWessels databse editor source code)
and:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Scripts/NW_OPMissionSources.zip
(NuclearWessels mission sources)
I'm sure insane amounts of time have gone it these as well.

Both are given freely, no questions asked. (Though somewhat unmistakable in origin now matter how they are altered).


The attitude of some modellers perplexes me somewhat.


I produced the following mod:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Mods/SFB_OP_04.exe
Based on Gman's old shiplist (credited) and includes dozens of old models - all readme's intact where they existed and directory structures preserved.

I'm a little scared to do a version 5 of the mod with all this talk.


I think half the problem at battleclinic is that the uploader is billed as the author. The uploader should be billed as the uploader. I suspect that some uploaders never intended to claim a work as their own, the website just makes it look that way. I think I'll have a little chat with MrCue about that.

I also put insane hours into the maintenance and improvement of this website. I ask for no recognition, I do it because I like to do it and it is almost always a learning experience.


I have posted a way to mark models that some have summarily ignored and others assume to be simplistic, without proving they have defeated it. I am beginning to wonder whether some modellers are really interesting in protecting their work or if they just like to complain about people stealing it. A good friend of mine has a wonderful saying: "Keep the honest people honest" - in regards to not providing the opportunity for theft. (e.g. locking the car when you leave a pair of expensive sunglasses on the dash or some such thing)


I have posted endless NSIS (Nullsoft Scriptable Installer System) scripts that took me many many hours to develop, take them, they're free, I ask for no credit, do what you like with them, I only ask that you at least try and use NSIS to create installers instead of batchfiles or the free clickteam installer. NSIS is very powerful and results in a professional looking result.


I could go on, and I may... I'll edit this post as I think of more to add and more paralells to draw.


Edit #1: I can safely say that this thread did not generate interest early on because of its title... when I opened it I had absolutely no idea what it was about, I opened it with the intention of asking:
"OK I give up, what the hell is a 1SG?"   
Instead I made this post...


Edit#2: Take a look at the OP Serverkit Development project, you have no idea of the blood sweat and tears that have gone into that. MagnumMan has given freely of his time by the boatloads and asks for no recognition, just lurks in the background...

Take a look at the header graphic on this website and forums pages... What does it say?


Edit#3: Dynaverse server admins and shiplist editors - incredible amounts of time and effort, none of this crying...

[Bonk]

I think half the problem at battleclinic is that the uploader is billed as the author. The uploader should be billed as the uploader. I suspect that some uploaders never intended to claim a work as their own, the website just makes it look that way. I think I'll have a little chat with MrCue about that.

Update: MrCue has kindly modified the docks format at battleclinic in an effort to reduce any possible misunderstandings. 

[S31-Riptide]

I must say that I fall inline with Bonks beliefs here... if you can't tell that from my rants here and there...

I'm a little scared to do a version 5 of the mod with all this talk.

That would be a shame... Me personally.. one that like to push the envelope... would push on and let the chips fall where they may.

I think we should prehaps come not come from a "don't steal my models" position, but instead to one of "let us help you get to the next step yourself so that you don't have to steal models.

Do we have to alienate and use negative terms like "Steal"... it could also be catagorized as... "Expanding on a Great Concept or Idea"  now a respectable person would just add there info to a readme file... Underneith the original artist's name... as I have done in the past... 

When I put a mod together... just like a moddeler... I have a vision of the picture I want to paint. For example I'll use my mod Sedition.

I wanted to do away with the 4 races of SFC3.... Sounds easy??? suuuuure it does.
I started gathering model files for, Ferengi, Breen, Jem' Hadar, Cardassian & Species8472..... sounds easy??? suuuuure it does...
I wanted atleast 8-10 ships per race... then there are 4 different base models and a weapons platform per race.... still sounds easy??? suuuure it does....

Then I wanted each race to look like it belonged where it was.... differences in texturing sizes, some had HP's some didn't... so we tweaked some colors on some textures resized some ships add HP's etc..

Then I had to find bases... not easy for some of the lesser races...  2 Ferengi Bases 0 Breen bases (at the time) 1 Jem' Hadar base 2 Species bases... as you can see... this forced me to kit bash... most of my weapons plateforms (as I did not want to use the games stock WP for each race... looks out of place!) I made or kitbashed... as I've had 1000's of hours already into this mod, I could not afford to make each model, some I did, some I bashed.  etc....

When all was said and done.... 1000's of hours of work complete... me not fully happy with the whole mod, but satified that it was acceptable, with plans for Version 2 already swimming in my head... I released the mod for the community.  I spent hours getting a campaign settup for the community... I setup a support site for the mod... found forums to house my mod... I even started a site just for sfc3 downloads so I could host my downloads and others... I don't like to wait inline or deal with pop-up adds lol...  Hosted the campaign, and had a blast!!! 

Did I have to go through all of this just to have a week or 2 of fun... no... I could have waited for Unity or Island Wars or Near Distant Future to run... but those are the only 3 "Big" mods out there... I did it so more people would have a greater choice when it came to playing..... More opportunity to have fun Etc.... nothing more nothing less...

That is where I came up with the saying "Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?"  and I believe it is the same for Dynaverse.net and thier "It's all about the game!"

You can tell if someone does it for the Fame... as there are usually alot of strings attached... that kills gaming!

More Coffee... too early in the Morn for me! lol

 

[Red_Green]

I think there are more than 3 big mods out there. There is a TOS mod that swaps out all ships and a SFB mod that swaps all ships as well. Those both have over 60 ships in them. There have been several other mods about that size as well. These were not on a server. Seems to me that if a mod is not on a server it flys under the radar a bit.  I don't get what you mean about doing it for the fame. I also don't get what you mean about sever model restrictions. Most modlers simply ask to keep the original readme with the ship if used in a mod. That does not seam like a huge restriction to me. I have heard modders say they remove the readmes because it makes the d/l file too large. A readme takes up only 1k. If you have 300 ships it is still an insignificant amount of room. As you probably know most anything released gets critiqued to death and people more often say what is lacking than anything else. For everyone that says its a great mod there are 99 others that will say what is wrong with it, wether its race balance or textures or whatever.

There is no fame in modeling or modding. I just don't get where that come from.

I think what Interstellar meant about stealing is the few cases where a models oridinal modeler is not creditied and someone claims it as their own. Now I agree that if a model is released for game it becomes freeware but someone removing a readme and  claiming a model  as their own work is what I hope no one tolerates.

There are getting to be too many different topics within this one thread for me to process anymore. I like what Bonk got done at Battle Clinics with regard to crediting the author instead of the file uploader. Regarding embedding stuff in a file to prevent copying. That can always be defeated if someone really wanted to and I don't think it really is necessary. The problems with models is not common place. My self I needn't worry because all the models I released are crap. 

[Bonk]

Regarding embedding stuff in a file to prevent copying. That can always be defeated if someone really wanted to...

Have you tried to strip my demo of marks yet? Don't assume... Its been two days now since Malak said he could strip them... nobody has found and stripped all the marks since I have posted the challenge. In that time you could more easily make your own model rather than steal a marked one.

[Red_Green]

All models are marked in a way already. The meshes are unique and so are the textures. Modelers can recognize if their work has been used and not credited. As a couple people mentioned, the best policy is if you really have a model you don't want to take any risks on, its best not to release it. If models were marked as you desrcibed. How would the modelers be able to use the system since it can't be shared with anyone because  then everyone knows what to look for. How do you know that the person asking to know what to look for so that they can check to see if someone stole credit on their model, isn't a person that wants to defeat the system so they can eliminate the markings. It would be hard to implement and its so much easier just to not release something you need to protect

This also has no bearing on anyone that does not want to release a model because by doing so they lose the rights to the design. If these markings are in the textures, the textures could be altered or they could use the mesh and add new textures. Has there really been that big a drop off in the models that are being released because of model theft?

[Bonk]

A valid comment. However, I know who the main SFC community modelers are and that is who I would reveal the system to.

The trick is that we are allowed to mod SFC to our heart's content as long as we do not sell the mods. So equating investment of time with remuneration is invalid. (Not that you have suggested this but it is implied in some of these posts.) If it is completely original (non-trek, non-ADB, non-stargate... etc.) and not in .mod format then yes, you could theoretically sell it. But if it is a Trek or ADB model then sale of the product is strictly prohibited by law. 

I understand the idea of modelling for one's own pleasure, but I just think it is much more rewarding and fun to share the fruits of your labours, isn't it?

This also has no bearing on anyone that does not want to release a model because by doing so they lose the rights to the design. If these markings are in the textures, the textures could be altered or they could use the mesh and add new textures. Has there really been that big a drop off in the models that are being released because of model theft?

You really need to test my system before you can comment. Try and strip the marks and send the file back to me. It is considerably more sophisitcated than you assume.

I'm not sure that there has been a significant drop off in model releases because of plagiarism, but I do tire of listening to the whining when there are ways to effectively indelibly mark your models as your own so there is no question as to who the original creator was.  And here I thought that the Dynaverse server admins were the worst bunch of dramaqueen primadaonnas (myself included). I just don't like to see the strife, Dynaverse.Net and SFC is supposed to be about fun and games - not unnecessary stress, we all get enough of that everywhere else in life. I'm just interested in fostering a fun an relaxing place to hang out.

[Tus-XC]

try break bonks system, as it is we have already managed to upgrade it some (well i should say bonk did and i tested the idear ) IN order to find all the marks you would actually have to 1.  Know they were there and 2. be bored enough to remove them...  I understand that we can tell whose work is whose by the model (i can tell my work from wz's, each of us has our own lil way of doing things) but this process defentaly adds another level to that.  As it is i'll be updating the mccoy to include these things to better accomondate atolm's wishes. 

[intermech]

Hidden marks are great, but if they are hidden, aren't we back to square one? I thought the objective was to be very clear on who the modeller was, not hide it for some cyber archeologist to find 246 years from now.

-blunt I know, but please entertain this reation.

[Tus-XC]

the idea is that there would be no question who the owner was thats the idea behind the marks.

[Mr_Tricorder]

the idea is that there would be no question who the owner was thats the idea behind the marks.

Only if the hidden marks were plainly visible for anyone to see without having to dig for them.  Whether or not the marks are there, someone can take the model, delete the readme, post it as theirs, and the only people who would know the difference would be anyone who already knew who really made the model and anyone who knows about the hidden marks (which would most likely already fit in the first group).

I like the idea of the hidden marks and I applaud Bonk on his efforts, but I'm somewhat skeptical that it would have any significant real world impact.  What we really need is a permanently attached readme.

[Tus-XC]

....... wel right now those hidden marks are about as close as we can get to a "permantly" attached readme....

[Red_Green]

I understand the idea of modelling for one's own pleasure, but I just think it is much more rewarding and fun to share the fruits of your labours, isn't it?

Well I have released 99.999% of what I have finished but I don't believe it brought me any pleasure really.  Mostly ridicule and disdain from folks wondering why I bother putting out such crap.  Oh wait thats called feedback.

No seriously, you might want to contact the modelers that were saying they would not post models because of others taking the credit. Because it sounded like they had made up their mind already not to release anymore. I am sure you could find a few modelers that would be willing to test it out. I might try it myself with the next model I release.  It sounds like a good idea.

[jayvt3]

Well Ship_Rods an honest effort is better than no effort at all.  I'm sure that there will be those that criticize but dey jus' haters yo!!! Time fo da biatch slappin' to begin!!!!

[S31-Riptide]

I think there are more than 3 big mods out there. There is a TOS mod that swaps out all ships and a SFB mod that swaps all ships as well.

Sorry, I should say the 3 Uber mods that have stood the test of time... I should not have left out Dom Wars, GAW.  Yes in TOS, Cozbo replaced all of the stock ship models...but if you look over at Battleclinic, you will see 933 Fed models 343 Klink models 344 Romy models (can you believe the Roms have more models there then the Klinks? modelers get to work!!! lol). I'm not sure about the SFB mod.. new one for me.  What I was getting at was that if you wanted to replace the Federation, Klingon, Romulan and Borg... that your sellection was limited and you had to be creative as how to bring it all together and make it look like they all belonged...with permissions from each modeler for slight to major modifications etc... but the thread has definetly moved on from there.  By bad lol.

I have not heard the, saving space by removing the readme files in close to 2 years... back when the big WT was around.  What most modelers did not know is that most Modders reduced the textures to 8bit or less... that is what really helped save space... but the whole removing for space arguement is no more... hasn't been in a couple years. 

It is unthinkable for anyone to remove a readme file from a model folder. I would never do it.  I have, in the past forgotten my own readme files for my work, later to find them uploaded to BC or other sites... no biggy, the uploader was nice enough to put down where he found the files from.

Ok, here is my explaination for Game or Fame... I'll try not to be too graphic... lol 

I don't get what you mean about doing it for the fame.

Game... I do it for the game...
Do I make models/mods so that gamers have new ships to fly, new mods for them to be in... do I do it with little or no strings attached.  Do I make models/mods because I love the game and the great communities behind the game??? Do I spend too much time just for others to have fun???  This is for the game.

Fame.. I do it for the fame...
Do I make models/mods so I can bask in the glory of others talking about my super work... do I  toss off under the desk when I get a couple compliments??? Do I put heavy restrictions on who can use... how they use... or even... who can't use???  I do it so that I am thought of as a god... to hell with the lowly, untallented gamers/modders... they don't hold a candle to the work I do!!!  This is for the Fame.

Now the list below... there may be some circumstances to these Classifications that not all are aware of, and I'm not singling anyone out, but tell me what you think others.. nonmodelers/modders would think of each catagory and what would be there first impression of the author... read the defs. above then read these....

I DON'T CARE MAKE IT PINK IF YOU WANT
CREDITS NEEDED ONLY
NOTIFY (dont need permission, but they want to know what your doing)
ASK PERMISSION
NO MODIFICATION AT ALL
DO NOT UPLOAD TO MASS-MODEL SITES (Kitbashes or Originals)


Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

As to marking models, hey that is a great idea... I won't mark mine as I really don't care what the next guy down the line does with it... they can texture it Pink...with yellow pocadots for all I care... if it makes them happy.  It just seems alot of extra work so someone can point the finger and scream foul... probably on deaf ears anyways... the ones that delete readme files... don't really give a rats hiny if you get angry, scream, cry or threaten... and the bad ones are extremely few and far between... Folks, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this... life is too short!!!

I've said this before, and most don't get it...

If you make a model and make renderings of it, but you don't allow the models use... and no one can see or use it in 3d form (in a game) Is it really a model? or just a picture?

Now, please, no one go off the deep end on this one... this is just some thought for discussion...
No Chickens where hurt during the making of this post.
This is a test and only a test... if this was the real deal... we would all be sorry!!! lol

Time for Coffee... it is too early for me to even try and make sense of my own argument! lol

 

[Tus-XC]

Game... I do it for the game...
Do I make models/mods so that gamers have new ships to fly, new mods for them to be in... do I do it with little or no strings attached.  Do I make models/mods because I love the game and the great communities behind the game??? Do I spend too much time just for others to have fun???  This is for the game.

Fame.. I do it for the fame...
Do I make models/mods so I can bask in the glory of others talking about my super work... do I  toss off under the desk when I get a couple compliments??? Do I put heavy restrictions on who can use... how they use... or even... who can't use???  I do it so that I am thought of as a god... to hell with the lowly, untallented gamers/modders... they don't hold a candle to the work I do!!!  This is for the Fame.

As i mentioned before thats rather narrow, i fit in neither, my reasons for doing models are simply to make them and enjoy the challenge of the creation.  So forgive me when i release them i put some restriction on what i want done with it. 

As a side note my reasons for having my readme (if you have ever read it it sounds strict) stem not from having my model ported against my wishes (as a matter of fact you can ask SF or ZZ, as long as its my own work i will say ok) but are a result of someone attacking my character by making a general post over at BC instead of contacting me through my 3 e-mail addresses to have the problem resolved.  As you said there are more reason than what are made available for why we have our policies, and my character and honor if you'll forgive are a bit more important to me than a game.

I DON'T CARE MAKE IT PINK IF YOU WANT
CREDITS NEEDED ONLY
NOTIFY (dont need permission, but they want to know what your doing)
ASK PERMISSION
NO MODIFICATION AT ALL
DO NOT UPLOAD TO MASS-MODEL SITES (Kitbashes or Originals)

When i first read these i don't know, guess its the way i am, but i didn't think nothing of it. I figured that was their right to place some restrictions, they are the ones who put the work into it, not me the user.  Here are some things i see htat leads to each of those above limitations.  They are all a result of someone not respecting the author at some point in time.  For example i believe a few people had notify as their policy and went to ask permission when people wouldn't even do the notifying part.  Sure it stands to reason that if they wouldn't notify them in the first place then an ask permission won't do crap either.  the idear is that by upping the the persmissions level you draw attention to the problem and hopefully prevent it in the future.

I however am a bit wierd, my policy stemed from the fact i was textureing or modeling atolm's models/schematics he has done, whcih in turn resulted in a policy that respected his wishes. 

Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

Nope no snobbery, unless you don't consider the dozens of circumstance that could lead to such policies. 

If you make a model and make renderings of it, but you don't allow the models use... and no one can see or use it in 3d form (in a game) Is it really a model? or just a picture?

As i said before your two classifications are slightly flawed.  by your system you would classify this as "fame".  However this is not the case, for example have you considered the amount of detail that a render only model has?  its way to much for a game, and thus could never be utilized in game.  or the fact the only reason the model was made was for the picture, which for most would be the challenge of creating it.  These stem neither from game nor fame, but from the idea that modeling is done for the individual, with neither the need for compliments or the need to see people use it but for the pure satifaction of creating. 

Now, please, no one go off the deep end on this one... this is just some thought for discussion...
No Chickens where hurt during the making of this post.
This is a test and only a test... if this was the real deal... we would all be sorry!!! lol

Time for Coffee... it is too early for me to even try and make sense of my own argument! lol

 

I personaly have no problem with your arguement, as it is we both have totally differing point of views.  One comes for a community in which it is common for people to just release stuff for others and the community (ie modding) the other is of a community whose work is done by the individual for the individual, two totally differing concepts, whcih i can defintly see could lead to scratching of heads wondering why a person of the other view would think like that

[Sandman3D]

Why do I do this? That's an interesting question...with as many answers as there are modelers. For me, it's not about fame...though I wouldn't mind getting noticed by a game developer. Also, it's not for the game. I do it for me mainly, the challenge of creating a low poly model that looks good in game and as renders...difficult to achieve. I release them because I want people to use them in game, or make pretty pics etc. I am at the point in my learning that I want to try a high poly model (100,000+ polies) where I don't have to worry about what the game can handle; as long as my machine can handle it that's all I care about. That's why my policy is so easy...hell, lately I've been forgetting to include a readme in my releases. Eventually, I'll probably stop releasing models, but only because I've moved on to bigger and better models.

As to tagging models, well, thieves have proven they are resouceful and a way will be found. It's just too much of a headache to stress over...release what you don't mind being in general circulation, don't release everything else.

[Bonk]

As to tagging models, well, thieves have proven they are resouceful and a way will be found. It's just too much of a headache to stress over...release what you don't mind being in general circulation, don't release everything else.

Clearly you have not attempted to defeat my tagging system. It would be less work to simply create your own model. 

[S31-Riptide]

I guess I could rephrase it as....

Do you do it for the Game, or the Fame, or because I love to model, or my Great Aunt Ethel makes me!    as you can see.... that just doesn't roll off the tongue as well lol

Does your tagging hold up even after porting or multiple porting to multiple formats???  I won't even attempt to defeat the Bonk System...  Can we dub it the Bonk System.... kinda like secret code.... this model protected by the Bonk System.... Quick Bonk... License it now!!! lol j/k not to make light of a good tag system... I just like the name Bonk System.. it would keep them guessing!

[Tus-XC]

would Yes answer that question concerning the tags....

[Red_Green]

I just d/l a fairly recent mod for SFC3. Whats interesting is the mod readme gives no credit to any modelers texturers or converters. The creator of the overall mod of course is mentioned several times. This mod has its own web site as well. I checked it out and there are in game screens of ships (nothing odd there) but then I saw pictures of a wip of a ship from early on to completion. Pics that may have come from this forum. No credits are given for the ship so you get the impression that it is implied that the creator of the overall mod was involved in the making of the ships as well.

People ask quesions of the overall mod creator asking him to tweak textures here and there and statedhe did a good job on this ship or that ship. This is what bugs me. As a modeler I do not care so much if I do not recieve recognition for my time spent, but I find it annoying when someone who did not model or texture a ship is getting recogintion for it. This is not a blatent case where someone is claiming someone elese work as there own. They just fail to mention anyone that made a contributuion. I do not want to say any specifics as I have come to accept that this is now the norm. In the past modders were better at crediting.

It is because of this type of non- crediting in mods has become the norm that makes me feel like a model peon. Sounds like some bad jobs I have had. Most of us have been in a situation where we do the work or have an idea and then someone else takes the credit. It sucks, and there really is no excuse in my mind why a modder can't make a list of contributors that he used material from for his mod.

[Red_Green]

 

Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

I restricted the models I release not to be converted to other formats due to what I saw at BC files. Namely that 1 person is uploading hundreds or perhaps even a thousand models over there. Credits are inclued in the d/l file but in ALL CAPS is the person who converted the file to the game. The person converted the ships to game is getting all the recognition for its release to that game. When the orignally measure or modeler may have spent 10 hours on a ship does it seem fair that the person that spent 20 minutes converting it gets all the recognition. This is compounded by the fact that when the ship was WIP it is the modeler who takes the criticism for anything being off by 2 microns. Even the person who later converts the file is one of the most crritical, then after the modeler makes all the corrections he is forgotten about and who ever adds it to thier mod or converts it to a new game essentially gets athe acollades.  TO make matters worse theperson who converts most of the files to BC has no tact or politeness but pretty much demands a modeler to fix things.

All this contributes to an atmosphere that this modeling in the forums is more like a job than a hobby. For all the hassle I would rather limit my releases to the SFC community. Now I have heard it said that once released its freeware and anybody can do whatever they want with it. Just kepp in mind that yes -that is true, but every modler has a point where they will say enough is enough. It seems to me that the ones that put there time into it should have some say.

[S31-Riptide]

I just d/l a fairly recent mod for SFC3. Whats interesting is the mod readme gives no credit to any modelers texturers or converters.

I put my readme credits for my mod in the opening movie... where people will actually see it!

The standard for sfc3 and credits is keeping the readme file intact.  I personally give a blanket thank you to all the model makers in my mod in my opening movie, not necessarily on my site, as I have little time to update my site either, I've spent 2 weeks making 6 mission scripts, I have 8-10 more to go before I'm done... If I've used alot of one particular modelers models, then I break the norm and actually thank them by name... Kane comes to mind, as he release alot of Species 8472 models and a breen base and a few other models.  As to a huge credits list... that is a double edged sword that is very time consuming, my current model folder has 272 folders (models) in it, and if I where to forget one modeler on the credits list, now that would just cause holy heck to break loose.  I have always told people that if they liked a particular model, to check out the readme file... credit where credit is due...

But I can say this... the week before a mod is released is an extremely intense week.... 20 things to finish before the release, with 200 people screaming for a campaign, that is part of the release, the campaign.  There is not always time to dot all i's and cross all t's.

I'm currious as to which mod you downloaded Rod.  I can't speak for most of the others, but most modders try to give credit.... If I had to write out a "Credits List" like the movies do... there there would 50+ modelers  20 beta testers, Suport people, download hosting sites and forums to thank etc...  the next topic for my Blog (oh god yes I started a Blog! AHHH) will be the insane trials and tribulations ("step by step" what is involved with making a mod from begining to release), it will be informative and funny... I'll drop a link here... It will be worth it for educational and comical value....

As to what modelers do with there models, that is there business.  I can't argue with that, nor would I... The community will always make up there minds as to how a modder or modeler is remembered.

For those who would like to check out the credits I give... go to the following sites

www.chaoticnetwork.com       there are links here to my Sedition site, plus Chaotic Main which is the main Campaign node.
www.sfc3.net   my site, Download  Sedition V1.0  just load it up and sit back and watch the opening movie for credit information
http://sfc3.puterz.net    forums for sedition are located there with Unity, Island Wars ,Uncertain Destiny, A time to stand, and soon Sci Fi Wars
                                  you will find much talk about everything mod related, even talk about what models used and why.
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/logs/index.php?blog=7     My Blog .... stay tuned for the Crazy Mad Modders rants on Modding

[Red_Green]

Hi Riptide. Well it was not your mod but I hesitate to mention the mod specifically because these things tend to implode sometimes. The mod in question does not have a campaign as of yet and is a beta though unzipped it is over 700mb. Perhaps they intend to add credits in the full release. I don't know. I appreciate the way you credit. I did not watch the opening movie on the mod in question as I didn't realize that could even be swapped out. I just feel that a mod should at least have a blanket statement in general just thanks the modlers, texturers and people who converted files, did missions etc. Even for a beta because just from reading peoples comments on the mod, I get the impression that a few people believe that the mod author is responsible for the enitre content. There are many people who frequent different sites where the mod is available that are not aware of this forum and in many cases they are seeing a ship in game for the 1st time when it was available a few years ago in this forum.

I released a mod of my own, but because I modeled before I modded, I was keenly aware of crediting issues. I credited every contributer in the main readme. Plus each model folder has a readme and I also put the credits in game. You can scroll down and see them at the bottom of the ship descriptions.  Then I had a statement that if I made any errors in crediting to please contact me. Which if they do contact me I hope they realize that any mistakes were unintentional. I guess my point is, we constantly have new people coming to the game and new people modding it, so there will always be an entire spectrum range of how people handle credits. In the case I describe I don't think its necessarliy wrong, especially because I believe the modder does not frequent this forum. I am sure they just see it as making more ships available to more people.

I don't want to make too much of it really. I can say that my expections are usually way to high in regards to matters like this. If it were up to me, anyone that released a game mod would need to take crediting 101 and be certified and take an oath 

[Red_Green]

I know whats involved in a mod. That is except for the server aspects to it. When you take into account the 6 months to a year spent on a mod, the time spent on credits is very minor. Especially if you add up the combined time that was spent by people that are allowing you to use there work. Which is a privalege that is sometimes taken for granted. I am posting my readme from version 2 just as an example of how I credit. If anyone sees anything missing let me know. I probably got carried away listing indiviual ships, but since the mod had 65-80 ships it was not that much more involved to do. I didn't list names in any specific order. I wish I had time to expand this mod in the future. But it does take a lot of time and I started up my own business (Un-related to models obviously) so I spend more time here already than I really can afford to.


This mod is dedicated to my sister Debbie 1958-1998.

Special thanks to V1ctor1st, Katherine & Nicola Venra over at http://www.stcd.sgnonline.com/
for hosting this mod as well as forum hosting.


Title      : Rise of Kingdoms II
Version         : 2.0 for SFC3 patched to version 531   
Date      : 9/24/04
Mod Author      : red_green


Mod contributors:

Karnak - missions
The Pelican -missions
Queball - ships
The New Guy - science fiction story
SkinMan - ships
Atrahasis - ships
ToastyO - wallpaper
DarkMatrix - SFC porting of ships
Cpt. LC Amaral - ship
Dawn - ship
Mackie - kitbash
Admiral Ljungberg - ship
P81 - ships
Atheorhaven - Textures/ship file conversion
Pataflafla - sFC ship port
Knox1711 - Kitbash
Vichama - conversion of ship to SFC3
NightStorm - SFC3 ship conversion
S31-Data - game testing
S31-Chuck - game testing

More detailed credits listed after Overview. Ship credits also appear
in each model folder as well as in the visual library. The New Guys story appears in
the intro screens to the Lyran Campaign. His story is available in word document in
the same folder as the readme to this mod.



Mod Overview
___________________

   A complete race substitution featuring minor SFB races and pirates.
   This meant not just adding ships to existing races, but entirely
   swapping them out. The Hydrans replace the Klingons. The Lyrans
   are added in with the Romulans. Pirates replace the Borg, while Feds remain
   in their original slot. This was done partly to give SFB races
   the spotlight, but also because it allowed more freedom to change
   weapon arcs, textures, cloak availability and other ship characteristics.
   As well as swapping of music, voices and sounds.

   While not a huge mod. I strifed to make it one of the best SFC3 mods quality wise.
   




Mod Installation
________________


1: Uninstall your current SFC3 version. Remove the Activision folder then reboot the
   computer.

2: Reinstall SFC3. Then install Build 531 Full Patch. This patch is available here.
   http://starfleetcommand3.filefront.com/file.info?ID=29206

3: Extract all 6 parts of the KingdomsII mod to your hard drive. Move these extracted files to your
   Activison folder and allow any files to be over written.
 
4: It is of the utmost importance that you do all 3 steps above before you play the game.
   If you play a game and then add the mod, the new missions won't show up. This is
   because the 1st time the game runs in makes cache files for the missions. Then
   it loads the files directly from these cache files.




Changes made since version 1.1

1) Increased damage of Inversion beams from 11 to 13.

2) Increase damage of myotronic beam from 10 to 12.

3) Increased R-disruptors slightly.

4) Decreased damage of anti-matter mines from 26 to 22.

5) Decreased damage of Ion-Cannon from 19 to 18.

6) Increased warp power of Pirates by 16%. Increased cost as well.

7) Advanced warp engines now cost more to reflect there lower mass and ability to equip
   higher thrusters when they are used.

Energy draw of tachyon beams lowered.

9) Refit alerts elliminated and previouly un-refittable weapons given normal mass figures.
   Note-Light Plasma remains only available to Romulans. Though romulans can now equip any
   Heavy available to the Lyran slot. Removing the light PLasma is ill advised as it is
   modded to act like medium plasma (damage20) to aid Romulan ships that still have
   traditional narrow arcs.

10) Five classes of cloak now available to ships that have a 2nd bridge hardpoint. There
    are now 8 ships available that can equip cloaking devices. None above Cl class.

11) New fonts added throughout the game. There from SFC2. Most of the fonts are Hydran and
    appear thoughout approximately 60% of the game.

12) A science fiction story by The New Guy appears in the 4 introduction screens as the
    Lyran campaign loads. Be sure to read it. This story is in Lyran font.

13) Seventeen new ships added and one retextured ship.

14) Visual Library and Tactical ship displays are all redone to fix over lapping arcs and general disorder. There all organized nice and neat now. 

15) Fixed Dragoon not having light maps assigned.

16) Hydran Eclipse ship is renamed to Ancestor due to a problem that arose when I added the Federation Eclipse.

17) Fixed no ambient engine sound for pirate slot by added new sound.

18) All ships now are equipped with tractor III instead of tractor IV.

19) All ships now come with a weapon loaded on every available arc. This helps make the AI harder. Many ships now come with higher thrusters, warp, impulse armor and shields.

20) A couple ships now have 13 weapon arcs instead of 14. Found out the maximum displayed on screen in red or yellow is 13.

21) Edited some beauty shots for the Hydrans. Got rid of some grey splothes in them.

22) Pirates now have photon torpedos available to them.

23) Energy draw of Lyran disruptors increased slightly. Energy draw of pirate cutting beams altered as well.

24) Increased shield strength and armor for defense platforms.

25) Turn rates increased by roughly 50% for frigates, 30% for destroyers and 10% for remaining classes.

26) Pirate cutting beams incresed slightly. In most cases by 1.

27) Pirate shields 1-3 increased slightly

28) Hydran fighters now come with forward and aft shields.

29) Improved light maps for Hydrans

30) Improved damage maps for Lyrans.

31) A few more Karnak missions added since version. 

32) Most bitmaps are converted to 8 bit to make play on the server smoother.
    Damage maps and lightmaps resized to 256 by 256 for the same reasons.
    This also allowed me to add missions that use more ships, such as
    Karnak's Fleet Action. Which is 6 vs 7 for 13 total ships in the mission!
    The main maps remain at 512.

33) Changed number of officers available for review fron 6, back to 8.

34) Hydran fighter and Pirate shuttle changed to lower polyigon versions.

35) All ships now come with 50% more marines.

36) Two missions by the Pelican have been added. Emergency and Survey.


Mission Credits
_______________

These 12 missions below are by el-Karnak. 

"Kar_ConvoyRaid.scr"
"Kar_HomelandDefence.scr"
"Kar_DeepSpace.scr"
"Kar_HoldtheLine.scr"
"Kar_Skirmish.scr"
"Kar_SquadronAction.scr"
"Kar_JointOps.scr"
"Kar_CombinedArms.scr"
"Kar_EnemySweep.scr"
"Kar_ConvoyEscort.scr"
"Kar_FleetAction.scr"
"Kar_CounterPunch.scr"

The 2 missions below are by Pelican.

"Meta_Emergency.scr"
"Meta_Survey.scr"






Story writing Credits
_____________________

Lyran/Romulan Peace treaty story by The New Guy.

Hydran Mission Intro by red_green.

Story Board Credits
___________________

Each board in the visual library has the credits listed at bottom. Credits include SFC1
and SFC2 for art and background information. One of the backgrounds used is by ToastyO.

Music/Voice Credits
___________________

Music and voices were added to replace the stock ones for the Romulan, Klingon and Borg slots.
These all came from SFC1 and SFC2.

Ship Credits
____________


Ships by Queball
________________

Nihydron
Zahl
Victory
Kazon raider


Ships by Atrahasis
__________________

Talarian (renamed to Banar for purposes of this mod)
Tamarian



Ships ported to SFC by DarkMatrix
_________________________________

Delta Flyer originally from EliteForcesII
Dark Vor'cha from EliteForces
Dominion battlecruiser from Armada
Griffin from Armada
Kazon raider
NiHydran
Victory
Zahl
Raptor (renamed to Tarus for purposes of this mod)



Ship ported by Pataflafla
_________________________

Valdore


Ships by SkinMan
________________

Fed Brel
Eclipse
Hydran Brel
Steam Runner
Kvort-Cha (renamed Thunderduck for purposes of this mod)
Romulan BOP
Defiant Shuttle



Ships by P81/Mackie/Atheorhaven
______________________________

Belmont



Ship by Admiral Ljungberg/P81/Knox1711
_____________________________

Melbourne


Ship by Cpt. LC Amaral
______________________

Raptor (renamed to Tarus for purposes of this mod)


Ship by Dawn
____________

Valdore



Ships by P81
____________

Dauntless (converted to SFC3 by Vichama)
Norway (converted to SFC3 by NightStorm)
Intrepid
Akira
Centaur
Defiant
Excelsior
Galaxy
Nebula




Ships by red_green
__________________
(note ships with * denote ships that I wish to remain exclusive to this mod, please do
not include them in any future mods.)

Ancestor
Citadel*
Defender
Dragoon
Drandath*
Hydran Base*
Hunter*
Inexorable
Jungle Mother*
Kantag
Lancer
Lyran Base*
Mutom*
Necromancer*
Omen
Persuasion
Protector
Prowess*
Raven*
Rumbler*
Serpenticon*
Sling*
Smilodon*
Soultaker*
Starclaw*
Stinger
Talisman*
Tracker*
Zadika*



Ships edited by red_green
_________________________
(These are either kitbashes or retextures of stock models.)

Hydran retex of stock Bop.
Cobra
Exorcist
Pirate Base
Phantasm
Piranha
Quip
Stalker
Wolverine
Zephyr



Texture Credits
______________

Disruptors, cutting beams, tactical display, tractors, mines, the sun, tactical overlay and
planet atmospheres all are Taldren textures edited by red_green.



Font Credits
____________
All new fonts used in this mod are fron SFC/OP




****Please notify my of any errors in crediting. I made an effort to get them as accurate
as possible. In certain cases where no readme was available with the ship, I created a
new one.*********************************



Known Issues
____________

1: Only single player conquest mode is playable. The storyline is not playable
   because it uses Klingon/Romulan ships that are now unavailable.

2: Picards voice overs will not be available. The number of sound files would make the mod gigantic.

3: The story boards in the visually library are not ships. They are Asteroid bases.
   They cost the same as the regular ones and are equipped the same.

4: This mod was built on my 800MZ Athalon computer. This mod needs a computer equivalent
   to that or higher for best performance. The models I make are limited to 1 or 2 bitmaps
   to reduce the burden put on the graphics card. All ships and missions have been tested
   on this machine.

5: Certain points in specific missions, may have a bit of lag as new ships are being created.
   One example is in Convoy Escort. After several minutes you recieve reinforcements. On my
   machine I experience a 1 to 2 second lag period while the ships upload. The mission is
   too much fun to leave out and some of you will have better machines than me, so I
   included it.

6: In the Lyran/Romulan race slot. Only Romulans come equipped with plasma. Once removed it can't
   be refitted with plasma again. This is to prevent the Lyrans from equipping it in order
   to make these two races unique. The Lyrans have wider arcs to compensate for lack of plasma. 





Copyright and Distribution Permissions
--------------------------------------
THIS MODEL(S) IS NOT MADE, DISTRIBUTED, OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION OR INTERPLAY.
TM & (C) INTERPLAY & PARAMOUNT PICTURES.

Copyright notices:

Star Trek, Star Fleet Command, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: The Next Generation,
Star Trek: Voyager (and the various logo devices used in them) are copyright Paramount Pictures,
as are the characters, related images, and sound from the productions.


This mod is intended for non-profit personal use only.

Read me author: red_green aka ship_rods
                 

[S31-Riptide]

Could you write mine up... you do it much better then me! lol  But I must say that you are the only modder that I know that gets that indepth.  I do have the flip side of the coin to the following statement... be it a devils advocates roll here....

Especially if you add up the combined time that was spent by people that are allowing you to use there work. Which is a privalege that is sometimes taken for granted.

Well seeing I'm on both sides of the fence here...  Would it not be a privalege for someones models to be in one of the great Mods?  Modders patients with Modelers is always taken for granted?  Now I'm not going to name any names but I have heard in the past statements from modders, Old school Modders things like...  That God D$*# premaddana, where does he get off changing his mind after a release about model use!  or   I emailed the SOB 5 times and he never replied, until I used the model... then he replied from the very same email address I'd been sending them too! 

I must say your above statement could be, as I did at first, seems a little snooty and looking down the nose. 

In SFC3, long ago the standards for credits was set, plain and simple, unless otherwise agreed upon, just keeping the read me file inplace was all that was needed.  Now there seems to be a newer crowd moving in and some have forgotten the old school agreements, on both sides.   I can tell you one thing... if I get too much grief from a model maker after an agreement of use has been made... I will make it all too publicly known that the person in question is untrustworthy and that there word mean nothing.  There are too many outlets for freedom of speech, and that is all the gamer needs to hear before there oppinion is swayed.  This is not in any way a threat, but a policy of mine ever since I had a modeler "forget" that permission was granted, causing my mod to be pulled down for a site, before I was even contacted. 

It is simple and the following statement sums it all up.

The best compliment a Modeler can get is for a Modder using his models in a mod.
The best compliment a Modder can get is for a Modeler to alow use of a model.

This is a fine ballance, that I feel modelers are trying to tip.  The scale was even, now it is heavy on the model side. Your work is no more, nor, more less important than a Modders... simular hours goes into both.  Modelers just want there name in lights, where modders just want people to have fun, for the most part... don't even try to argue this last point as this whole thread leads to this conclusion.  Now there are exceptions to this rule as there are to every rule.

Now if I've pissed anyone off for speaking my mind... so be it, it needs to be said. 
Nothing personal to anyone person.

One last quote before I'm through (because I had a ransid night at work lastnight lol)

Raven Night (CEO Nightsoft)

Guys, we are modding a game that does not belong to us, using a trademark that does not belong to us based on a storyline that does not belong to us. We are ALL borrowing someone elses ideas. We might want to remember that the next time our egos speak before our brains do.

AMEN RAVEN!!!!

<S>

[Red_Green]

Riptide , this is the second time you have quoted me as either being a snob or snooty. I don't recall ever seeing a modder getting any grief from a moddeler. I was referring to a mod with no credits to anyone being listed. I do not see how that is a compliment to anyone. How can it be if no one playing the mod knows who contributed to it?

As far as that statement about we are all modding a game that belongs to someone else. Well I mysewlf have stopped modding for the game. Period, because I gave it some thought and we all have been disrespecting the authours and creators od ST and Stargate. So I guess we are all snobs then according to your terms.

[Red_Green]

I must say your above statement could be, as I did at first, seems a little snooty and looking down the nose. 

 
Nothing personal to anyone person.

One last quote before I'm through (because I had a ransid night at work lastnight lol)

You know if you didn't mean anything personally, you wouldn't be singling me out on more than 1 occasion and using emotive language. It seams as though your are going out of your way to make this a modder vs modeler issue. As you can see I have done both as well. Isn;t it fuuny that in the last 2 weeks a total of 4 modelers no longer post there models for public use. You keep saying stuff line modlers want thier name in lights and have ego problems. This only puts fuel on the fire. I believe there is a general lack of respect. You seem to feel as you stated several times that once a model is released it is freeware and anyone can do whatever they want with it. I do not agree, If the model has a readme, by downloading that model, the person using it is agreeing to use the model as intened by the author of that model. Models used without permission is just unethical. I can see that you just do not get that.

[Red_Green]

Someone with this type of an attitude and general disrespecy for work done by modelers has no business being a dyna Admin!!

[exadvent]

To get back to Bonk's idea of hidden marks if administrators knew how to check for these marks before a submitted mod was uploaded their existence would not have to be general public knowledge.  People who found out and would ask to be able to mark their models are people who IMHO would respect other modellers rights.  People who submitted models whose credits did not agree with the marks would be exposed and would not be able to make any excuse.

However as I have never been an administrator, I certainly have no right to suggest that they take on an additional time consuming task.

[S31-Riptide]

I must say your above statement could be, as I did at first, seems a little snooty and looking down the nose.

Reread please, seems at first, not is...


And I take it that you skipped over this statement

I do have the flip side of the coin to the following statement... be it a devils advocates roll here....

As far as that statement about we are all modding a game that belongs to someone else.

That was a Quote from Raven not me...

You seem to feel as you stated several times that once a model is released it is freeware and anyone can do whatever they want with it.

the above is true with mods... no legal recourse. Same with models in a .mod format. no new news here.

As to what mod you recently downloaded that left all credits out, I would really like to know the name of the mod.  Peer presher from all sides works.

Someone with this type of an attitude and general disrespecy for work done by modelers has no business being a dyna Admin!!

Now if I'm not mistaken, this is a person attack on my integridy? I have earn much respect in the SFC3 community and have proven myself honorable.  First I thought this was a General Debate... but now I see this thread other wise...


I'm just offering up the flip side of the coin... sorry Rod if you don't like the devils advocate opinion.  And no I was not singling anyone out, you just happened to give one side of the debate, if it where written by others, then I would have used them by example.

I have always had great respect for the greatest modelers right down the the new guy trying his hardest.

This was only a Gentlemens Debate... don't make anything

[Star Dragon]

Model_Peon,

   May I use your post as a template for my mod credits? (the relevant data would be diff of course, but the general  layout the same)

   Of course you would be credited (I am NOT trying to be funny, I'm serious!)    I've seen video credits befiore, and am toying with an idea of taking it a step further as to how elaborate to make them...
 


   I may not have the right to an opinion here about his subject, but as a converter (only!) I damn near worship many of the users on this and other Trek boards for their selfless and tireless devotion to all gaming (no matter if it is SFC3, KA, A2, BC, BOTF, or others...)..

   They have a talent I lack (trust me I proved it), and that talent is taking what is in people's heads and turning it into physical form so we all can enjoy, "Blowing the Pogies outta them!" - dont ask me who said that, somebody did...

   Is it so unreasonable for Modling people to understand that the untalented masses want to use their hard work.  ALSO... Is it so unreasonable for the masses to undestand that these Modler's want the credit they DESERVE???

   This to me is a no-brainer...  Don't punish the general public for the transgressions (intentional) of the few. instead of keeping "incidents" in the dark, shine the light of truth on them and watch the roaches scurry to the dark corners. THAT's how you stop them. To do anyting more is taking too much of your personal time, energy and stress. Allowing them to kill your enjoyment of modding & gaming is simply unacceptable.


That's my .02