Topic: As my old 1SG used to say...

[intermech]

Anyway, my $0.02

Now you are going to start charging for your models. Affordable yes, but I never thought it would come to that!

[FoaS_XC]

Anyway, my $0.02

Now you are going to start charging for your models. Affordable yes, but I never thought it would come to that!

LOL!

[S31-Riptide]

lol too funny!

As to the  

Community Art & Renderings=High Poly Models Renders and Art

 <--- This really is not the issue... those artists don't allow there model to go on the web (atleast the intellegent ones don't!)  They allow there pictures of the models too... when it comes to models designed for game play, that is the crook of this discussion.

But, as to why we do this, there is for everyone, a bit ego involved. We like being told we are modelling gods...we don't want to hear that the phaser strips are too wide, the photon launcher is a

Trust me.... Modders get this treatment X10... and mission scripters get it the easiest...all we hear is... can you make this for me??? PLEASE!!! lol

We are all crazy for the work we do!!!

[CaptainTombs]

i was more or less saying thats what that forum is for to post renders and stuff, where it should go, and not in the SFC Models section

[Tus-XC]

It all depends on the following question....

Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?

I do it for neither Game nor Fame, i do it for the pure satisfaction of doing it.  I do it to kill time, i do it to relax, i do it because it makes me feel good doing it.  I do not do it for the community, i do not do it for others.  The only real satisfaction i get is from the process of creating.  There is that nice added bonus of the compliments, but that doesn't really do much for me, cuase if it did i would sure as hell not take 6 months to do something from start to finsh. 

In short it would be much simpler for me to not to even bother releasing or even posting renders, its much less hassle than to upload it, spec it, make sure i'ive compressed the files satisfactory so the majority can use it.  but i don't, part of me wants to give back to the community that has given me so much excitment and entertainment, so i release because i want to return the favor and do so by releasing my best, what i consider i have poured my heart, soul and charcter into in order to bring to life.   

So before you say Game or Fame you might consider the real reason, which is for me and me alone.

[Wicked Zombie]

That raises another interesting point - why even post a ship if there's going to be so many rules and regulations? Clearly, if a modder doesn't want to put up with any bull then they should just keep their work to themselves. However, if everyone started doing that then there wouldn't be much of a community. Being bitchy and egotistic regarding our work is our way of countering the criticisms and complaints and occasional insults that often spring up. It helps balance things out and give us an avenue to vent so we don't get burned out or ultimately go off on anyone for nitpicking the 3rd phaser on the starboard warp pylon being off by .0003 centimeters.

By the majority, the reason for some modders' having stringent rules isn't because we're tyrannical egomaniacs. It's just a way to catch people's attention and to show that there are people behind those creations that are for download. CGI websites have rules that require credits be listed in any images that are rendered for the very same reasons. Most of the time as long as someone asks first before releasing any altered work, a modder isn't going to bite their head off for it. I myself don't care if a ship is used in a big mod or campaign and am often surprised when I get emails asking permission to essentially fly the ship in the game it was meant for. The way I see it, if you have to download 500 megs and one of my ships just happens to be tossed in there, then it isn't going to make much of a difference. As long as the readme's intact, the whole issue is null.

I rarely see anyone do this for the shear glory and attention - those few that have, clearly aren't around anymore for obvious reasons. As Tus stated, most of us simply build the ships for the hobby aspect, something to pass the time and stage off the boredom. Some even, like me, look at building a ship as a challenge and get a sense of accomplishment when something is built and finished. That's the same mentality behind playing video games or doing a jigsaw puzzle.

Now as far as releasing those ships is concerned, and thus, running the risk of the whole "copyright, ownership, theft, etc." issue, I can't say I have a real answer to that. I could tread out the "giving back to the community" routine, but even that isn't an honest answer. I simply post the ships because I know how lame it is to be stuck with those stock models all the time. Sure, some may (and do) criticize my restrictive nature as not being a team player, or not sharing, or gods-know what other reason they've managed to conjure up for themselves. Those are often the same people who just don't get how a modder thinks and don't care about anything but getting what they want.

Who knows? Maybe on a subconscious level I even enjoy dealing with individuals who try and break the rules. Dangling the carrot, as it were. Immature, perhaps, but being dead isn't known for it's abundance of distractions.

[Anthony Scott]

 During my graphic design studies we were given a series of ethics lectures which we were taught never EVER try to pass off someone else's work as yours. That lesson manifests itself everytime that I do a poster or even a test poster because somebody somewhere will see the work and find the original artist. Plus, your standing in the community drops.

We had a student here once decide to use his classmates entire demo reel as his own, we never figured out if it was laziness, dishonesty or both. He landed a job with Activision with that demo reel but within a few days the people found out that he was not what he appeared. He was not only fired but prosecuted.

The point is, always ALWAYS give credit where it is due.

That is my 2 cents worth!

Semper Fi, Carry On

[Red_Green]

The worms got out of the can and are squiggling around again. Good too see some differing points of view. I am glad this is a community that can have differing points of view and we can discuss subjects like this and everyone give there 2 cents or nickles worth.  Much better than a Borg collective.

[jayvt3]

HEY HEY HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look I posted this topic not to bring division but a subject that has cost us and is still costing us.
But first let me answer a few questions about the models that are made.

1.  Paramount or whoever owns the Star Trek franchise does own the models that we have all seen on TV, the movies, and in games.  It means that no one can claim that joe schmoe made the uss enterprise or reliant or that god-forsaken 1701-D.  it does not mean that joe schmoe can't make the models and distribute them freely.  KEY WORD=FREELY.  No profit.  None Nada.  No means NO.
If jane doe wants a killer model of the defiant for SFC whatever or BC and says hey joe schmoe would you or could make it for me?  joe shcmoe says sure but it will be $50.  joe schmoe better be prepared to give 5% to whoever owns the franchise and game copyrights.
If it's done for free and given for free then nothing is violated.

2.  The owners of Trek know of this and other sites for models.  They really don't care about them because no one has been dumb enough to claim that the TOS TMP or TNG enterprise is their idea and unless there is a sudden public demand for SFC or BC models, several hundred thousand, then maybe they might send Frey a nice letter and WZ45 can give up his day job.

3.  This forum specifically is the heart and soul of this site PERIOD.  You honestly think Dynaverse would be around if the schmucks in fan fiction were the main event??  Now don't get me wrong I've read some really good stuff in there but for every one good story there are a dozen crappy and I mean crappy ones.  Here you actually get to see the development from a "so-so" model to a "good gracious it look so real I think the lights are blinking" model.

4.  I said it once and I get the feeling that I'm gonna have to say it again and again and again and again....I just meant for us as a forum to help one another by just looking out for one another.  That's all.  We can't change the copyrights unless someone wins a billion dollars and buys the rights to Trekdom, but we can do little things and as my father used to say "...garbage trucks don't come out of thin air, King Kong never snuck up on anybody and its always the little things that will get you."
So let's put aside the big legal ramification copyright my ass arguments and let us deal with what we can deal with.  Each other.

Oh and could somebody please tell me why when I first posted this I had -3 karma and now I got -7???

[Red_Green]

I don't think the thread got out of hand here. Regarding copyrights, Yes obviosly Star Trek related ships and redesigns based off those ships are ST property. However ships of original design and non trek remain the rights of the creator as long as not ported into a game. This is the point I wanted to make. I  just want to have a fleet of ships that I can use for wallpapers. If I made wallpapers with ST ships then ST would also have the rights to those as well, but again not with original ship designs unrelated to Trek. I get the feeling I need to distance myself from Trek altogether by moving to a non-trek SCI-FI forum where it is not assumed that everything posted is related to SFC or Trek. Anyway that is why from now on if I am working on a non-trek ship I am posting intellectual property rights in the pictures just to make it abundently clear that the ship pictured is not related to Trek and is my original work not intended for game use.

If some want to believe I am being selfish I would just like to point out that I have been a part in over 100 ships that have been released to game and spent a year making a mod for SFC that contains about 70 ships, about 1/4 of which are mine,which are not nearly as nice as the other modelers who were kind enough to allow me permission to include their ships in the mod.

I simply want something I can truly call mine and maybe even have it made up into a plastic or resin model. Call it Ego or whatever. But truth is without the ego would we have any motivation to do anything at all? Probably not. Why does anyone make a design if not to express themselves and because it is an expression or  in a way, an extension of ones selve. It is only natural to take pride in the endeavor and try to make a ship as best as one can.

[intermech]

Ship_Rods, you have completely expressed my veiw. To grow as a modeller, I feel I must expand into new territories, to where (forgive me) "no man has gone before."

[S31-Riptide]

Look I posted this topic not to bring division but a subject that has cost us and is still costing us.

To the contrary dear sir... It is better that everyone gets there points out in the open, so as to educate the new Modders and Modelers what is and what is not expected.
I am rather enjoying this discussion, though I wish the posts where shorter lol short attention span??? lol

Now Ship_Rods, you already know not to make the mistake of posting ship model files for that which you wish not to be used for anything other then art rendering... that is, IMHO the best thing a modeller can do.  I do wish you remove those disclaimers from the renderings, it so detracts from the beauty of your work!!! 

I also believe in giving credit where credit is due!  I thank all the modelers in a general statement in my mod, via the intro movie... those that give a large portion of there work to the cause even get a name mention... I encourage those that play my mod to check the readme files of any model that they really liked! I only take issue with those that put crazy, ludicris restrictions on the use of there work.  Or in just a few cases, have there work up for download then cry that people are... and get this one... ACTUALLY USING IT!!!  Crazy I know...

I know with SFC3 anyways, that we have the next generation of Modders and Modelers coming onboard... Some of the old ways and gentlemens agreements as to uses of models and mods will be revisited... some old school moddelers and modders will not like the new ways.  That is why these discussions are so necessary for us to revisit and the next gen. to understand where we come from when it comes down to models, mods, scripts etc... I say for the community, by the community!

[intermech]

Hey, remember the good old days, the New Ships Project and all that. Everything was a kitbash of the original game models. Everything matched. Everything was low poly. NOT that things were better then, just different. I think the community as a whole and individual modellers follow a general path to modelling "ascension" (shameless SG1 reference).

1. Love the game.

2. Swap ingame models around within the game.

3. Download other peoples models.

4. Aquire free or cheap modelling software and do some kitbashing.

5. Pay for some software and make your own ships.

6. Make ships more and more detailed untill they are no longer playable in the game.

7. Focus on rendering.

8. Realize you need more expensive software to render and get your ideas across.

9. Create incredibly awsome models.

10. Realize that as long as you are emulating Trek, they really aren't yours.

11. Experiment with your own style ships.

Somewhere between step 2 and step 11 you have crossed over from being a modder to a modeller. And somewhere you have forgotten that lust for the Akira with the Sovereign warp nacells and Reliant role bar that you thought you would never be able to find and without which you would never be happy.

As an observation, we are all at different stages. (I for instance am somewhere between 5 and 6). I think problems start when people skip steps or try to keep others from advancing to the next. Any thoughts on this?

[Red_Green]

Great insight Interstellar Machine. I never thought of it like that and those steps make complete sense to me. I went out of order some as I made my own models before I learned how to kitbash (if you could call my 1st ships models), only because I didn't know how to merge two files together. I think I move around bewteen the steps, partly because I have a short attention span. I still really have no clue about a lot of the aspects to this hobby, but all I ever try to do is keep impriving at my own pace. I guess I am just getting into rendering but have no ide about lighting and whatnot.

Riptide, enjoyed your comments as well and WZ puts everything so well and leveled headed. I wish I was more level headed at times, but I am what I am, a bit volitale at times but sometimes anger fuels my designs so I try to draw a positive from one of my shortcomings.
 

[S31-Riptide]

I'm still stuck on 1!!! lol
and 5.......
Moddeling is a secondary skill brought on by needs for modding, resizing, converting, making planets astroids shuttles freighters etc...
you guys always make great Flag ships, but don't spend much time on the ragged ships lol  hense my slight legitimacy in this discussion lol


Interstellar Machine you have brought some good points to light here... Post up people!!!

[intermech]

In light of what Ship_Rods said, I think I would have to rephrase my statement about skipping steps, prehaps it is when people take shortcuts, ie, stealing models to get from step 4 to step 6, that problems start. I think we should prehaps come not come from a "don't steal my models" position, but instead to one of "let us help you get to the next step yourself so that you don't have to steal models." Organized or not, maybe that is the direction that we should head.

[Bonk]

Interesting comments.

All I can say is take a look at:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Tools_and_Utilities/webmap_op_wips.zip

You cannot imagine how many hours have gone into that, its absolutely insane.... yet there it is, not a single credit or readme, download, do what you like with it. (As DarkElf had done in the past) Chances are it will always be recognisable as mine.

It still needs lots of work and improvement and will continue to evolve and grow in complexity.

Is it for my ego? Not really, but as others have expressed it is fun for me to work on and adds to the enjoyment of the game.

Another example:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Tools_and_Utilities/dbeditor_sourcecode.zip
(NuclearWessels databse editor source code)
and:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Scripts/NW_OPMissionSources.zip
(NuclearWessels mission sources)
I'm sure insane amounts of time have gone it these as well.

Both are given freely, no questions asked. (Though somewhat unmistakable in origin now matter how they are altered).


The attitude of some modellers perplexes me somewhat.


I produced the following mod:
http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Mods/SFB_OP_04.exe
Based on Gman's old shiplist (credited) and includes dozens of old models - all readme's intact where they existed and directory structures preserved.

I'm a little scared to do a version 5 of the mod with all this talk.


I think half the problem at battleclinic is that the uploader is billed as the author. The uploader should be billed as the uploader. I suspect that some uploaders never intended to claim a work as their own, the website just makes it look that way. I think I'll have a little chat with MrCue about that.

I also put insane hours into the maintenance and improvement of this website. I ask for no recognition, I do it because I like to do it and it is almost always a learning experience.


I have posted a way to mark models that some have summarily ignored and others assume to be simplistic, without proving they have defeated it. I am beginning to wonder whether some modellers are really interesting in protecting their work or if they just like to complain about people stealing it. A good friend of mine has a wonderful saying: "Keep the honest people honest" - in regards to not providing the opportunity for theft. (e.g. locking the car when you leave a pair of expensive sunglasses on the dash or some such thing)


I have posted endless NSIS (Nullsoft Scriptable Installer System) scripts that took me many many hours to develop, take them, they're free, I ask for no credit, do what you like with them, I only ask that you at least try and use NSIS to create installers instead of batchfiles or the free clickteam installer. NSIS is very powerful and results in a professional looking result.


I could go on, and I may... I'll edit this post as I think of more to add and more paralells to draw.


Edit #1: I can safely say that this thread did not generate interest early on because of its title... when I opened it I had absolutely no idea what it was about, I opened it with the intention of asking:
"OK I give up, what the hell is a 1SG?"   
Instead I made this post...


Edit#2: Take a look at the OP Serverkit Development project, you have no idea of the blood sweat and tears that have gone into that. MagnumMan has given freely of his time by the boatloads and asks for no recognition, just lurks in the background...

Take a look at the header graphic on this website and forums pages... What does it say?


Edit#3: Dynaverse server admins and shiplist editors - incredible amounts of time and effort, none of this crying...

[Bonk]

I think half the problem at battleclinic is that the uploader is billed as the author. The uploader should be billed as the uploader. I suspect that some uploaders never intended to claim a work as their own, the website just makes it look that way. I think I'll have a little chat with MrCue about that.

Update: MrCue has kindly modified the docks format at battleclinic in an effort to reduce any possible misunderstandings. 

[S31-Riptide]

I must say that I fall inline with Bonks beliefs here... if you can't tell that from my rants here and there...

I'm a little scared to do a version 5 of the mod with all this talk.

That would be a shame... Me personally.. one that like to push the envelope... would push on and let the chips fall where they may.

I think we should prehaps come not come from a "don't steal my models" position, but instead to one of "let us help you get to the next step yourself so that you don't have to steal models.

Do we have to alienate and use negative terms like "Steal"... it could also be catagorized as... "Expanding on a Great Concept or Idea"  now a respectable person would just add there info to a readme file... Underneith the original artist's name... as I have done in the past... 

When I put a mod together... just like a moddeler... I have a vision of the picture I want to paint. For example I'll use my mod Sedition.

I wanted to do away with the 4 races of SFC3.... Sounds easy??? suuuuure it does.
I started gathering model files for, Ferengi, Breen, Jem' Hadar, Cardassian & Species8472..... sounds easy??? suuuuure it does...
I wanted atleast 8-10 ships per race... then there are 4 different base models and a weapons platform per race.... still sounds easy??? suuuure it does....

Then I wanted each race to look like it belonged where it was.... differences in texturing sizes, some had HP's some didn't... so we tweaked some colors on some textures resized some ships add HP's etc..

Then I had to find bases... not easy for some of the lesser races...  2 Ferengi Bases 0 Breen bases (at the time) 1 Jem' Hadar base 2 Species bases... as you can see... this forced me to kit bash... most of my weapons plateforms (as I did not want to use the games stock WP for each race... looks out of place!) I made or kitbashed... as I've had 1000's of hours already into this mod, I could not afford to make each model, some I did, some I bashed.  etc....

When all was said and done.... 1000's of hours of work complete... me not fully happy with the whole mod, but satified that it was acceptable, with plans for Version 2 already swimming in my head... I released the mod for the community.  I spent hours getting a campaign settup for the community... I setup a support site for the mod... found forums to house my mod... I even started a site just for sfc3 downloads so I could host my downloads and others... I don't like to wait inline or deal with pop-up adds lol...  Hosted the campaign, and had a blast!!! 

Did I have to go through all of this just to have a week or 2 of fun... no... I could have waited for Unity or Island Wars or Near Distant Future to run... but those are the only 3 "Big" mods out there... I did it so more people would have a greater choice when it came to playing..... More opportunity to have fun Etc.... nothing more nothing less...

That is where I came up with the saying "Do you do it for the Game or the Fame?"  and I believe it is the same for Dynaverse.net and thier "It's all about the game!"

You can tell if someone does it for the Fame... as there are usually alot of strings attached... that kills gaming!

More Coffee... too early in the Morn for me! lol

 

[Red_Green]

I think there are more than 3 big mods out there. There is a TOS mod that swaps out all ships and a SFB mod that swaps all ships as well. Those both have over 60 ships in them. There have been several other mods about that size as well. These were not on a server. Seems to me that if a mod is not on a server it flys under the radar a bit.  I don't get what you mean about doing it for the fame. I also don't get what you mean about sever model restrictions. Most modlers simply ask to keep the original readme with the ship if used in a mod. That does not seam like a huge restriction to me. I have heard modders say they remove the readmes because it makes the d/l file too large. A readme takes up only 1k. If you have 300 ships it is still an insignificant amount of room. As you probably know most anything released gets critiqued to death and people more often say what is lacking than anything else. For everyone that says its a great mod there are 99 others that will say what is wrong with it, wether its race balance or textures or whatever.

There is no fame in modeling or modding. I just don't get where that come from.

I think what Interstellar meant about stealing is the few cases where a models oridinal modeler is not creditied and someone claims it as their own. Now I agree that if a model is released for game it becomes freeware but someone removing a readme and  claiming a model  as their own work is what I hope no one tolerates.

There are getting to be too many different topics within this one thread for me to process anymore. I like what Bonk got done at Battle Clinics with regard to crediting the author instead of the file uploader. Regarding embedding stuff in a file to prevent copying. That can always be defeated if someone really wanted to and I don't think it really is necessary. The problems with models is not common place. My self I needn't worry because all the models I released are crap.