Topic: As my old 1SG used to say...

[jayvt3]

...If the boot fits.  Its going up your ass!. 
Now what does this bit of old military vernacular have to do with this forum?  Glad you asked.  It has everything to do with it and nothing to do with it.  If it applies to you then you are, as they say in civilian law states, been given fair warning.  If it doesn't then pass it by and continue the mission.  But you wonder what has brought this up and why here?

Well allow me to explain as simply as my limited intelligence can.  Bear with me now cause I did graduate from a Kentucky public school.  English as a second language you know.

First up to bat.  The plagiarizing of Models.  Yes I know that this has been discussed and argued and discussed again but whether anyone wants to admit it or not it is a SERIOUS problem.  Why?  Well I don't think Paramount or whoever owns the rights to the franchise is gonna go off the deep end and demand royalties or fees for licensing of the manufacture of models.  It is just galling to go to battleclinic and download four differently named and credited models just to find out two are just lo-res copies and the third is blatantly miscredited in the readme file. 
If Hig Hurtenflurst were dead that high pitch whine you hear would be him.

Now on the flip side of this tarnished coin is the abandonment of this forum by some very very talented individuals.  The last one to leave wrote this...
                          "The truth is i can't trust people i don't know who will have free access to my models to do the right thing.
I have found web pages and file host with my models on them who have dropped the readme files from my model files, and even replaced them with other peoples names or their own names. This is unacceptable for me and is the reason why i cant make models and give them out for free now.
it's sad that a few Greedy people have killed the fun and Enjoyment for us, i wish it was not like this..."

Now I've d/l allot from this guy.  Way back in the Taldren Forum days and I will miss his work.  So can anyone find the magic word in his letter???

Well for those of you that are intellectual giants but moral midgets(and i am not in anyway implying that the vertically challenged are morally bankrupt but sometimes i wonder...).  The word is TRUTH.

Thats right!  Truth!  Truth is people have been posting individual models from model packs to rise their score or in the Battlestar Galactica section putting the included names on the same Battlestar and reposting it as a work done in spirit.  The truth is that is called fraud.
My old 1SG, oh and to those who do not understand the abbreviation 1SG, it means FIRST SERGEANT.  The senior Non-Commissioned Officer of a Company, for you leg mofos, or Battery, for us mighty men of the King of Battle.  I know some knucklehead was thinking some StarGate crap.  As I was saying.  My old 1SG used to say other things like "If you can't fix it don't f*ck with it."  Well I got a very simple fix for this and it goes to this motto of the Army's Community/Family Services, "We take care of our own." 

That's right we take care of our own.  We need to as a community forum to start looking after, supporting, constructively critiquing(did i spell that right???)and yes vigilantly guarding our work, our friends work and our character...our moral character.
Stealing is stealing whether by act or thought and if you know of it and do nothing then what kind schmuck are you?

Some of you will be offended by this.  I don't apologise.
Some of you will pass this by and not care.  I wish you well.
Some of you will go off the the deep end and become the modelling gestapo.  I say you people need to get a life.
Some of you will contact SkinMan, Atra, P81, and others that have left and tell them that it's o-k to come back because we got good folks herethat will look out for you.  Because it's the right thing to do.

All I can say is Thank You Jesus that this forum is not as ate up from the floor up as th fan fiction forum.  Now those SOB's got issues.

[Darkdrone]

...If the boot fits.  Its going up your ass!. 
Now what does this bit of old military vernacular have to do with this forum?  Glad you asked.  It has everything to do with it and nothing to do with it.  If it applies to you then you are, as they say in civilian law states, been given fair warning.  If it doesn't then pass it by and continue the mission.  But you wonder what has brought this up and why here?

Well allow me to explain as simply as my limited intelligence can.  Bear with me now cause I did graduate from a Kentucky public school.  English as a second language you know.

First up to bat.  The plagiarizing of Models.  Yes I know that this has been discussed and argued and discussed again but whether anyone wants to admit it or not it is a SERIOUS problem.  Why?  Well I don't think Paramount or whoever owns the rights to the franchise is gonna go off the deep end and demand royalties or fees for licensing of the manufacture of models.  It is just galling to go to battleclinic and download four differently named and credited models just to find out two are just lo-res copies and the third is blatantly miscredited in the readme file. 
If Hig Hurtenflurst were dead that high pitch whine you hear would be him.

Now on the flip side of this tarnished coin is the abandonment of this forum by some very very talented individuals.  The last one to leave wrote this...
                          "The truth is i can't trust people i don't know who will have free access to my models to do the right thing.
I have found web pages and file host with my models on them who have dropped the readme files from my model files, and even replaced them with other peoples names or their own names. This is unacceptable for me and is the reason why i cant make models and give them out for free now.
it's sad that a few Greedy people have killed the fun and Enjoyment for us, i wish it was not like this..."

Now I've d/l allot from this guy.  Way back in the Taldren Forum days and I will miss his work.  So can anyone find the magic word in his letter???

Well for those of you that are intellectual giants but moral midgets(and i am not in anyway implying that the vertically challenged are morally bankrupt but sometimes i wonder...).  The word is TRUTH.

Thats right!  Truth!  Truth is people have been posting individual models from model packs to rise their score or in the Battlestar Galactica section putting the included names on the same Battlestar and reposting it as a work done in spirit.  The truth is that is called fraud.
My old 1SG, oh and to those who do not understand the abbreviation 1SG, it means FIRST SERGEANT.  The senior Non-Commissioned Officer of a Company, for you leg mofos, or Battery, for us mighty men of the King of Battle.  I know some knucklehead was thinking some StarGate crap.  As I was saying.  My old 1SG used to say other things like "If you can't fix it don't f*ck with it."  Well I got a very simple fix for this and it goes to this motto of the Army's Community/Family Services, "We take care of our own." 

That's right we take care of our own.  We need to as a community forum to start looking after, supporting, constructively critiquing(did i spell that right???)and yes vigilantly guarding our work, our friends work and our character...our moral character.
Stealing is stealing whether by act or thought and if you know of it and do nothing then what kind schmuck are you?

Some of you will be offended by this.  I don't apologise.
Some of you will pass this by and not care.  I wish you well.
Some of you will go off the the deep end and become the modelling gestapo.  I say you people need to get a life.
Some of you will contact SkinMan, Atra, P81, and others that have left and tell them that it's o-k to come back because we got good folks herethat will look out for you.  Because it's the right thing to do.

All I can say is Thank You Jesus that this forum is not as ate up from the floor up as th fan fiction forum.  Now those SOB's got issues.

it comes down to one thing if u put your models online then it will be taken,reworked,and other things thats what always happens
if you dont want your stuff to be used like it or take the change its going to be saaid someone but u did it
dont post it

i had this verything happen this last 2 weeks in the bc forums someone took some of my work and said its theys
my new rule is no more bc release`s from now on and no porting of my ships to that game

Darkdrone

[Fedman NCC-3758]

Well first jay, thank you for your service to your country.

Eventually there will be a way to code certain files within a model that will prevent it's alteration or even it's use if tried.  But human nature being what it is, there will always be those who will try.  It's regretable, despicable behaviour. Then again, why do people steal the poor boxes in churches?

[jayvt3]

well thank you both for responding.  to be honest i was wondering how many would and what would be said.  i am a little disapointed though with the lack of interest in the subject of model stealing.

i have an idea.   DarkDrone, you Fredman and i could become a modelling spanish inquistion.  all we need is a comfy chair.

[E_Look]

It isn't that people aren't interested... it's that lots of us don't know what to do, as we are neither modelers or coders.  But since you have stepped up to bat, I support you and while I am mainly familiar with some old models, I'll let you know if I catch anything... fishy (sorry).

[Fedman NCC-3758]

well thank you both for responding.  to be honest i was wondering how many would and what would be said.  i am a little disapointed though with the lack of interest in the subject of model stealing.

i have an idea.   DarkDrone, you Fredman and i could become a modelling spanish inquistion.  all we need is a comfy chair.

Only if I get to build the dungeons.........

Muhahahaha....

[intermech]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

[CaptainTombs]

Credits shouldnt be altered full stop who ever does that is morally wrong and needs throwing into the brig and given a beating by a klingon and a few pain sticks to boot, i kitbash models but i always make sure to give credit to the original maker as i allways say dont praise me praise the original modellor for there original piece.

[jayvt3]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

I don't really agree with the noncoversion method as it would leave a lot of novice model maker and the pure gamers, i fall into the latter category, out in the cold sorta speak.  i have no idea as to convert from milkshape or Maya and some fool would start posting in CAD-CAM.  I would just rather shoot my hard drive than to deal with it.  As for the copy-writing Thu111's uses a system that before you are able to use it you have to agree basically to not plagerise him.  WickedZombie uses death threats and Atra started using really silly passwords like "bush must die" and "Kerry is god" in his work.  To be honest I've seen Atra's stuff plagiarised and nothing of WZ's.  Looks like death threats work.

I don't suggest that model maker start seeking legal representation for their work.  Unless of course it is used to make a profit without their consent.  This especially should go toward the model makers no longer with us in forum or in health.  Ripping off Mackie or Atra is the same as ripping off Shakespeare or Voltaire.  And no I am not comparing either one one of them knuckleheads to Mackie or Atra.

I merely would like us as a forum to start by just simply looking out for one another.  We have great talent here but sadly we have lost great talent as well.  
Now don't get me wrong.  I have d/l models from WZ, Atra and others did a little personal tweaking, added a phaser bank here and a new registry there but these models STAY ON MY HARD DRIVE.  My portable H-D to be exact.  I use them whenever I feel the urge to see a Lexington Class Command Cruiser or a TOS Yorktown just sailing along.  They are for my personal use and not public display.   Now one day if WZ ever gets away from his blood thirsting chihuahuas i might send him one that I've tweaked just to see if he finds it acceptable.   If not oh well it's still gonna be in my game and not in the Fed section of BattleClinic.

To be honest this stems from a personal trait of mine.  I really don't care if someone takes credit for my work, GOD will judge the works of my life at the time of His choosing, but I will not let someone suffer so others may profit.

So thanks for the feedback everyone and please keep it coming.  I feel that the more who view my original post even if they don't respond will keep an eye out for each other and to the low down, yellow belly, lily livered model thieves all I can say is here in Kentucky hanging is still legal.
Somebody get a rope!!!!!!!!!!

[intermech]

One more suggestion, never hurts to brainstorm. From what I have seen, SFC3files.com seems to be the center of attention for model posts. You get alot of BC and Armada crossovers because the sites are linked. What if we got with SFC3Files and helped them compile a list of known model theives. Have them make it as a link right up there next to the downloads, or even front and center. Other sites could do the same. This would not undo the wrongs of the stolen model, but it would show people that this community watches out for its own, and model thieves are not so annonymous as they may think. Of course this idea needs alot of work, but I am throwing it out there.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

One more suggestion, never hurts to brainstorm. From what I have seen, SFC3files.com seems to be the center of attention for model posts. You get alot of BC and Armada crossovers because the sites are linked. What if we got with SFC3Files and helped them compile a list of known model theives. Have them make it as a link right up there next to the downloads, or even front and center. Other sites could do the same. This would not undo the wrongs of the stolen model, but it would show people that this community watches out for its own, and model thieves are not so annonymous as they may think. Of course this idea needs alot of work, but I am throwing it out there.

Excellent idea.

Make'em pay by banning them from the sites!

[Red_Green]

Prehaps we should be looking into copywriting models.

Don't hand them over to Star Trek by turning them into *.mods, post them in milkshape or max and let the user take the responsibility of converting them. That way you always have a right to a law suit, assuming you are not copying an already copyrighted design. A Constitution Class model may be difficult to defend, but stuff like Major Radical puts out is obviously original. Of course, it seems that the people with the most original models are also the ones with the most liberal use policies. Ironic.

Until a thread posted about a week ago asking if modelers would be willing to donate their models to a new SFC game. I was unaware that once a ship was converted to mod that it was Star Treks. As I result I won't be converting any further models to .mod format. Looks like I am switching to wall papers. In effect I already donated my share.

Copyright law since the internet has changed somewhat. Due to the fact that so much new material gets posted instantly, there is something in place that as soon as a new idea appears in any format, be it picture or whatever. That idea belongs to the original poster.

[Jad]

As a modeller i can relate to this that the hard work, effort and so many hours spent creating wot is your portraition of the work you are doing is finished and u are satisfied then its a great feeling, modelling is quite enjoyable and is a great hobby of mine, i emulate a modeller called Ed Giddins who is my favorite modeller for those who have heard of him and i share my beleifs with him that my models are to be shared with you only through images and not the model itself, you cant steal a picture from an art gallary and said you did it can you? therefore my models will not be for download unless i myself deem the person trustworthy... and even then i may ask for a small Pay-Pal fee which is a sort of insurance. I think most modellers out there will be able to agree with this and relate. Im new to this forums and im liking sharing my WIP's with you and recieving the comments in return, thanks for accepting me into your community. i hope we can make it a great one

[Red_Green]

Read the SFC EULA...anything created for use in SFC is allready trek property....and could be used without your permission, credit or compensation....

That quote is from a different thread. This blanket statement that any ship in mod format belongs to Star Trek does not sit well with me. What about ships that are modded for multiple games, such as Freelancer and Nexus. If a ship was modded for 1 game and later coverted to mod format, I do not see how ST could claim rights on it.

Also back to copyright law for the internet, as soon as a picture of a ship design appears on the internet, the creator of that design has rights to it. I can't see ST using any ships created in mod by a fan when they hire their own ship designers. I believe that EULA statement was meant more for kitbashes of the models originally included in the game. I would like to see the EULA statement in its entirety, can someone tell me where to find it?

So yea I think best policy is not releasing them in any game format. Releasing them in milkshape or Max format wouldn't be wise because someone might try to claim they made it in max. Then they could convert it to any number of other formats including mod.

 

[intermech]

As a modeller i can relate to this that the hard work, effort and so many hours spent creating wot is your portraition of the work you are doing is finished and u are satisfied then its a great feeling, modelling is quite enjoyable and is a great hobby of mine, i emulate a modeller called Ed Giddins who is my favorite modeller for those who have heard of him and i share my beleifs with him that my models are to be shared with you only through images and not the model itself, you cant steal a picture from an art gallary and said you did it can you? therefore my models will not be for download unless i myself deem the person trustworthy... and even then i may ask for a small Pay-Pal fee which is a sort of insurance. I think most modellers out there will be able to agree with this and relate. Im new to this forums and im liking sharing my WIP's with you and recieving the comments in return, thanks for accepting me into your community. i hope we can make it a great one

You know, I hadn't really come out and said it, but I pretty much stopped sharing models too, temporarily, at least until I get this all figured out. My Trek Models, you can have them, they are Trek, part of that universe, but I don't want any of my other stuff to be construed as Trek and therefore I loose the rights to them. I am not sure how I will tackle this. I am thinking of posting as source models, saying I don't want them converted, and then only chasing down those that I feel violate the spirit of it. Granted, models are only fun if you can get your hands on them and play around with them.

I am not going to go as far as to say I also am a victim, I try to make my Trek models with a certain amount of individuality so that people know at first glance that it is an Interstellar Machine model, but there was one instance which got particularly under my nerves. This one guy downloaded my model changed the name and the description saying that it was a kit bash (which it was not, I put a lot of hard work into the original model) and then posted it. Now, I have a free usage policy so I really shouldn't be complaining, but free usage is intended for noobies who want to kit bash and make their own dreams come true, not for someone to just change a name of a model as if I didn't pick a good one, or change the back-story as though I was not creative enough.

But on the flip-side, by posting any model and claiming it is Trek are we not doing the same thing to Gene Roddenberry? Aren't we changing up (even if in a small way) his universe that he worked so hard on, changing it to the way that we would prefer it, implying that his ideas where not quite up to snuff with what we would have liked to see. By posting a model and claiming that it is a Trek model, are we any better than B&B who drove the franchise into the ground?

As you can see, I am conflicted on the matter.

[Red_Green]

But on the flip-side, by posting any model and claiming it is Trek are we not doing the same thing to Gene Roddenberry? Aren't we changing up (even if in a small way) his universe that he worked so hard on, changing it to the way that we would prefer it, implying that his ideas where not quite up to snuff with what we would have liked to see. By posting a model and claiming that it is a Trek model, are we any better than B&B who drove the franchise into the ground?

As you can see, I am conflicted on the matter.

Interesting point.  I am actually confused on the line between SFB and Star Trek. It has been discussed in other threads so I don't want to go into it in length here. What I gathered is that technically ST has the rights to SFB as well. At any rate, I sometimes release stuff intended as non trek but it gets in a trek mod. Some of my stuff is not influence at all by Trek but just being in mod format there is  an association with Trek especially when its included among canon Trek ships. By releasing a model its almost gaurenteed at some point to get into a mod with ST ships and pick up an assaociation with Trek ships weather originally intended or not.

I want to move away from Trek. I sometimes wish that there had never been another Trek series after TOS. TOS to me was the perfect Trek and I feel that Trek got a black eye over some things that happened over the last few years.

I  have not had a problem with anyone regarding my models but I had some copying of my work online not related to modeling that has made me more aware of some of the problems I hear other modelers talking about. I don't have much time for modeling anyway. I find I enjoy doing wallpapers more than anything.

[intermech]

What if we had our own file format made?

[CaptainTombs]

it would be okay for non game ships but what about specific game files that you want to port the model into

[intermech]

only select people would have the converter
I'm trying to take our models out of the Trek copyright, but still make them available for in game use
any other ideas?

[Mr_Tricorder]

I like the converter idea.  It would effectively remove our models from the copyright clause and make the files completely useless to people we don't trust enough to give a converter too.

I've been away from the modeling forum for a while because I've been focusing on my school work.  I didn't do so hot last semester and I need to make some good headway towards my degree or I'm never going to graduate.  I finally decide to come back and I find out that people are leaving left and right for intellectual property issues.  This is really sad considering the age of the game we're supporting and the general state that Star Trek is in at present.  What we have here is a healthy community of very mature and talented people who share a common passion for 3d modeling and have contributed greatly to games like SFC, Armada 1 and 2, and Bridge Commander.  I would hate to see this community fall apart purely for external reasons.

I think coming up with our own file type, as was suggested, seems like a very good solution because not only would it protect our work, it would better define us as a community.  We could also have converters for all different games that we may want to work with, like Armada, Bridge Commander, and the up-coming Star Trek Legacy game, as well as non-trek games.