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#### Grim

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##### Vista copy protection is defended
« on: January 29, 2007, 01:04:25 pm »
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6286245.stm

Vista copy protection is defended

Microsoft has defended the digital rights management systems integrated into its new Vista operating system.

It follows reports that Vista would "downgrade" the quality of all video and audio, if they were not output via approved connections on the PC.

Microsoft said only the quality of "premium content" would be lowered, and only if requested by copyright holders.

The measures are in place, says the firm, to protect content such as high definition movies from being copied.

Vista's copy protection systems have come under fire from many quarters, including recently from Peter Gutmann, a computer science lecturer at the University of Auckland.

In a report looking at the impact Vista would have on video and audio playback, he described Vista's Content Protection specification as "the longest suicide note in history".

He said Vista was "broken by design" and intentionally crippled the way it displayed video.

"The sheer obnoxiousness of Vista's content protection may end up being the biggest incentive to piracy yet created," he wrote.

Enforced

In a response to the paper, Dave Marsh, lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said many of the copy protection systems enforced by Vista were common on all playback devices.

He said Vista did have the capability of downgrading video and audio quality, like other devices, but that it would only be activated "when required by the policy associated with the content being played".

The copyright holders of content on HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs, for example, can insist that the video be played back in high definition only if it is output via a connection that supports the HDCP protection system on a PC and a TV or monitor.

That could prove a problem for many PC users whose graphics cards have a DVI or component video connection which do not support HDCP.

Microsoft said that if picture quality was degraded it would still be better than current DVD quality.

Mr Marsh also denied reports that the degradation would impact all video output, insisting it would only apply to premium content video.

'Very unhappy'

Mr Gutmann told BBC News: "It's reassuring that they are saying that only the ability to playback high definition video can be revoked.

"But if consumers have gone out and paid thousands of dollars on high quality, high resolution, high definition displays and find the content is downscaled or there is no picture at all, they are going to be very unhappy.

"Some of the feedback I have been getting indicates that HD-DVD discs are not playing on some PCs."

Mr Gutmann also highlighted the extra demands put on a computer's CPU to handle Vista's Content Protection systems.

Microsoft admitted that the CPU will be taxed further but Mr Marsh said "Vista's Content Protection features were developed to carefully balance the need to provide robust protection... while still enabling great new experiences..."

Mr Gutmann said it was insincere of Microsoft to lay the responsibility for the increased copy protection systems at the feet of content providers.

He said: "Saying 'we were only following orders' has historically proven not to be a very good excuse.

"If you have got the protection measures there, the impulse is to use the most stringent ones at your disposal.

"In general, some sort of DRM is necessary, but we need to strike a balance. It's very consumer-hostile technology that is being deployed."

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 07:32:53 pm »
If any device whether software or hardware in your system is deemed by the media supplier to have had its DRM compromised then they can get Microsoft to revoke your ability to use media from that supplier until you upgrade the component to one that is considered secure still.

Such revocations can (if I understand things correctly) be included on the media itself and Vista will accept that information and apply it to all "premium content" from that supplier.

Imagine having to repeatedly over the course of a year change major components like your video card or motherboard just to continue playing the movies/music that you bought.  What do you do when Microsoft stops supporting Vista and your rights are revoked for all your "premium" content?  Pay Microsoft for Vista II to get back the right to use your property?

I will be avoiding Vista as I advoided XP and will not be upgrading my DVD player to HD-DVD or BluRay as they incorporate versions of this DRM as well.  The only way to kill off the DRM is to do so with your .
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#### jualdeaux

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 07:50:22 pm »
My main question is whether or not the DRM checks everything every 30ms all the time or just if one has HD components/drivers and is playing something. This is a question that needs a sloid yes or no answer. Dancing around the issue as they are doing makes me think the answer is going to be yes. If it does, I"m not touching it. If it doesn't, I'll at least take a look.
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 07:55:30 pm »
My main question is whether or not the DRM checks everything every 30ms all the time or just if one has HD components/drivers and is playing something.

There have been claims that minor power fluctuations can cause the DRM to kick in mid stream IF those claims are accurate then it would seem so.
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#### Javora

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 07:59:22 pm »
I heard a quote of Bill Gates on the radio saying that Vista's DRM would put more strain on the computers hardware so I'm guessing that the DRM is running all the time.  Constant monitoring would be the only thing that would keep the MPAA/RIAA happy so it doesn't surprise me one bit.  I'm avoiding Vista for a while at least, it's not like there is any games out there that need it right now anyway.

#### MrCue

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 02:29:24 am »
XP will be the last MS OS that my household uses.

The computers in my house are MINE, and so is any content i choose to play on them.

#### IAF Lyrkiller

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 11:46:47 pm »
XP will be the last MS OS that my household uses.

The computers in my house are MINE, and so is any content i choose to play on them.

Here! here!!

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#### Commander Maxillius

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 05:07:15 am »
maybe totally unrelated, but the bloggers are suggesting to buy a mac since you'll have to get a new machine to run vista anyway.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/16555680.htm
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#### [ISC]Phaser

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 06:06:25 am »
Ok folks, if you have Vista installed well good luck and good luck to any of your software, movies and music files. Alot of "digging" has been done into MS new Vista OS and its EULA and the very fine print.

If MS see's that you have "pirated" software namely movies and music then guess what, they MS holds and has the RIGHT to remove said music. movies and other pirtated programs without your concent or knowledge.

Good luck, I am not touching Vista period. This is intrusuion to the hilt.

Vista's legal fine print raises red flags

While those reviews have focused chiefly on Vista's new functionality, for the past few months the legal and technical communities have dug into Vista's "fine print." Those communities have raised red flags about Vista's legal terms and conditions as well as the technical limitations that have been incorporated into the software at the insistence of the motion picture industry.

Vista's legal fine print includes extensive provisions granting Microsoft the right to regularly check the legitimacy of the software and holds the prospect of deleting certain programs without the user's knowledge. During the installation process, users "activate" Vista by associating it with a particular computer or device and transmitting certain hardware information directly to Microsoft.

Even after installation, the legal agreement grants Microsoft the right to revalidate the software or to require users to reactivate it should they make changes to their computer components. In addition, it sets significant limits on the ability to copy or transfer the software, prohibiting anything more than a single backup copy and setting strict limits on transferring the software to different devices or users.

Vista also incorporates Windows Defender, an anti-virus program that actively scans computers for "spyware, adware, and other potentially unwanted software." The agreement does not define any of these terms, leaving it to Microsoft to determine what constitutes unwanted software.

#### Lieutenant_Q

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 11:04:07 am »
Indeed, I have a discount upgrade coupon for Vista.  I bought XP Pro for a new computer a couple of months ago.  I have absolutely no intention of using it.  It was like pulling teeth to get me to buy XP.  I was perfectly happy with Win 2K.  Microsoft will lose the hard core computer user with this, but there's enough casual users that they will survive.
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#### GE-Raven

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 04:15:36 pm »
I dunno... but for the average user that doesn't wish to have pirated software or spyware on the machine, Vista looks like a nice product.

I will just point out that in my personal experience the most violent voices against vista happen to be the friends of mine that I know for a fact have thousands of dollars of pirated music and software.  (Of course most of them will talk until they are blue in the face in the attempt to validate their theft "Music is free on the radio... why not the internet?")

I am not accusing anyone here of that status... however I find it odd that when I read about all the "nefarious" ill-doing of Microsoft the network administrator in me rejoices in features that will stamp out illegal software, Mp3s and spyware.

I really don't fear the conversion of my campus to vista... kinda looking forward to it.  My home machine?  Probably go to vista once I am familiar enough with it to decide it is worth the move.

GE-Raven

#### Javora

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 06:37:01 pm »
For the most part I agree with Raven about Vista.  The only things that I hate is that RIAA/MPAA his this idea that fair use shouldn't actually exist.  And I think it is only a matter of time before the DRM is used to delete all the MP3's that I copied off of my CD's so I could listen to that music on my MP3 player.  That and the fact that if I don't have all the expensive hardware I might not be able to watch/listen to the Movies/Music that I bought or at the very least not how it was intended to be viewed/listened.  What of the people that bought the HD monitors for their computer already, with Vista more than likely they are going to have to buy that same expensive hardware all over again just to use HD movies as intended.  Or that even if I bought that expensive hardware that is Vista approved it may not be valid sometime down the road because it was found out that some idiot was able to hack to that piece of hardware.  Who wants to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for something that may not work as intended because it was found out to be hackable??!?  Not to mention the CPU drain just to constantly check DRM.

Other than that...  Yeah I think Vista would be nice.

Seriously there has to be a more fair/middle ground than what is being presented by Microsoft in Vista.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 07:05:09 pm »
Quote
Once operational, the agreement warns that Windows Defender will, by default, automatically remove software rated "high" or "severe," even though that may result in other software ceasing to work or mistakenly result in the removal of software that is not unwanted.

So when Vista decides that some of my non Microsoft software is dangerous it can delete it whether I want to or not?  So my OpenOffice can be deleted with no recourse on my part?

Quote
For greater certainty, the terms and conditions remove any doubt about who is in control by providing that "this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." For those users frustrated by the software's limitations, Microsoft cautions that "you may not work around any technical limitations in the software."

When it does delete that software I'm not even allowed to work around it?

What will a business do when the file deleted by a Windows Defender update is a mission critical file.  Part of your Oracle database or your payroll system or accounts recievablefor example?

No sale.  I don't see how any serious business can risk putting their software and data on Vista with these "features" and license terms.

A couple of things to remember.  The DR-DOS detection routines used to crash Windows betas in a way that persuaded developers that DR-DOS was incompatible with Windows.  The internal Microsoft memo stating that if needed to compete with Palm they would change Windows to make it less compatible with the Palm software.  Simply put given their history I don't trust Microsoft not to set Windows Defender to delete competing software components with the solution given to customers "Buy our software instead".
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#### jualdeaux

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2007, 08:45:16 pm »
Well, I have to admit that I have downloaded Defender and have used it for a while. So far, nothing bad has happened with it. Notice the "so far" at the beginning of the last sentence.
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#### GE-Raven

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2007, 08:10:59 am »

So when Vista decides that some of my non Microsoft software is dangerous it can delete it whether I want to or not?  So my OpenOffice can be deleted with no recourse on my part?

Yes that is exactly what it means    Come on people!  Quit fear mongering... you know damn well that this would NEVER happen because it is would be the most stupid thing MS could possibly do.  In my experience I have not seen windows defender, in its current incarnation, remove ANYTHING that was of any use to anyone but the makers of spyware looking to rip you off!

Quote

When it does delete that software I'm not even allowed to work around it?

What will a business do when the file deleted by a Windows Defender update is a mission critical file.  Part of your Oracle database or your payroll system or accounts recievablefor example?

No sale.  I don't see how any serious business can risk putting their software and data on Vista with these "features" and license terms.

A couple of things to remember.  The DR-DOS detection routines used to crash Windows betas in a way that persuaded developers that DR-DOS was incompatible with Windows.  The internal Microsoft memo stating that if needed to compete with Palm they would change Windows to make it less compatible with the Palm software.  Simply put given their history I don't trust Microsoft not to set Windows Defender to delete competing software components with the solution given to customers "Buy our software instead".

Because any serious business knows that it is very much part of MS interests to make sure none of this happens.  Believe it or not companies that wish to make money still need to have happy consumers.  Now the fact of life is that the business PC is a HUGE chunk of profit for MS... therefore it only makes sense to me that satisfying the Network Admin's dreams is a big part of their equation.

It really is humorous... but I have yet to see one "dire" prediction about Microsoft's abuse of power over the last 10 years come to fruition.  I have never seen a legal activity, a business function, or piece of data, intentionally hindered by an MS product.

Now I have seen them make several attempts to corner markets, and "incorporate" the "new hot thing" into their OS.  However if I were them, I believe I would do the same thing.

GE-Raven

#### Commander La'ra

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 08:20:01 am »
Honestly, I'd much rather have an operating system that didn't rifle through my files looking for misbehavior.  Hence, I won't be getting Vista unless I can help it.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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#### GE-Raven

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 12:06:26 pm »
Honestly, I'd much rather have an operating system that didn't rifle through my files looking for misbehavior.  Hence, I won't be getting Vista unless I can help it.

That is completely your choice to make... Unless you are on a computer owned by my University... then it would be my choice to make.  I personally don't care if it is on my work or my home pc as I am not in the least bit concerned that it will effect my computer in any way shape or form for a negative.

However I don't see that it "rifles" through anything.  Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.  Again not something that will really change anything for me... However I can understand how this would scare the bejesus out of many computer users.

For those wondering if your "legally ripped" mp3s will be deleted... my understanding is that if you legally ripped them in the last few years with any of the tools that can be employed for legal ripping.  You will have nothing to fear, for in your legal ripping you proved you had the license by having the machine rip it from a cd.  At worst you may need to legally rip a cd again...

The horror!

GE-Raven

GE-Raven.

#### Javora

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 01:33:39 pm »

For those wondering if your "legally ripped" mp3s will be deleted... my understanding is that if you legally ripped them in the last few years with any of the tools that can be employed for legal ripping.  You will have nothing to fear, for in your legal ripping you proved you had the license by having the machine rip it from a cd.  At worst you may need to legally rip a cd again...

The horror!

GE-Raven.

What utter crap, I have over a 100 CD's, I don't want to be forced to recopy all of them just to sadate the paranoia of the RIAA.  Then again I don't want to have to buy an new HD monitor because some idiot found a way to copy movies from it.  Like I said Microsoft need a far more middle ground to both the RIAA/MPAA and more importantly the customers then what is offered in Vista.  Fair-use right are being trampled here in a big way, and our time and hard earned money may be thrown away because of it.

#### Commander La'ra

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2007, 01:52:33 pm »
Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.

Having a machine continually checking up their in-home activities is a serious violation of anyone's privacy.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight

#### GE-Raven

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##### Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2007, 03:51:08 pm »
Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.

Having a machine continually checking up their in-home activities is a serious violation of anyone's privacy.

Um.. not if the only "activity" being checked is license status.  It ain't sending info to microsoft that says "bob johnson likes porn!"  It would send info to the porn movie license holder (owner of the copyrighted material) and make sure that the license attached is valid.  All can be done without a single bit of personal information (other than the mac address of your network card, and IP address... but that is given to every server you touch on the web, so pretty hard to get pissy about that...)

Now google taskbar and desktop?  Now you might be having some privacy issues... but it isn't cool to slam Google... that is microsoft's job.

GE-Raven