Topic: Vista copy protection is defended  (Read 10262 times)

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Offline Grim

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Vista copy protection is defended
« on: January 29, 2007, 01:04:25 pm »
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6286245.stm

Vista copy protection is defended

Microsoft has defended the digital rights management systems integrated into its new Vista operating system.

It follows reports that Vista would "downgrade" the quality of all video and audio, if they were not output via approved connections on the PC.

Microsoft said only the quality of "premium content" would be lowered, and only if requested by copyright holders.

The measures are in place, says the firm, to protect content such as high definition movies from being copied.

Vista's copy protection systems have come under fire from many quarters, including recently from Peter Gutmann, a computer science lecturer at the University of Auckland.

In a report looking at the impact Vista would have on video and audio playback, he described Vista's Content Protection specification as "the longest suicide note in history".

He said Vista was "broken by design" and intentionally crippled the way it displayed video.

"The sheer obnoxiousness of Vista's content protection may end up being the biggest incentive to piracy yet created," he wrote.

Enforced

In a response to the paper, Dave Marsh, lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said many of the copy protection systems enforced by Vista were common on all playback devices.

He said Vista did have the capability of downgrading video and audio quality, like other devices, but that it would only be activated "when required by the policy associated with the content being played".

The copyright holders of content on HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs, for example, can insist that the video be played back in high definition only if it is output via a connection that supports the HDCP protection system on a PC and a TV or monitor.

That could prove a problem for many PC users whose graphics cards have a DVI or component video connection which do not support HDCP.

Microsoft said that if picture quality was degraded it would still be better than current DVD quality.

Mr Marsh also denied reports that the degradation would impact all video output, insisting it would only apply to premium content video.

'Very unhappy'

Mr Gutmann told BBC News: "It's reassuring that they are saying that only the ability to playback high definition video can be revoked.

"But if consumers have gone out and paid thousands of dollars on high quality, high resolution, high definition displays and find the content is downscaled or there is no picture at all, they are going to be very unhappy.

"Some of the feedback I have been getting indicates that HD-DVD discs are not playing on some PCs."

Mr Gutmann also highlighted the extra demands put on a computer's CPU to handle Vista's Content Protection systems.

Microsoft admitted that the CPU will be taxed further but Mr Marsh said "Vista's Content Protection features were developed to carefully balance the need to provide robust protection... while still enabling great new experiences..."

Mr Gutmann said it was insincere of Microsoft to lay the responsibility for the increased copy protection systems at the feet of content providers.

He said: "Saying 'we were only following orders' has historically proven not to be a very good excuse.

"If you have got the protection measures there, the impulse is to use the most stringent ones at your disposal.

"In general, some sort of DRM is necessary, but we need to strike a balance. It's very consumer-hostile technology that is being deployed."

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 07:32:53 pm »
If any device whether software or hardware in your system is deemed by the media supplier to have had its DRM compromised then they can get Microsoft to revoke your ability to use media from that supplier until you upgrade the component to one that is considered secure still. 

Such revocations can (if I understand things correctly) be included on the media itself and Vista will accept that information and apply it to all "premium content" from that supplier. 

Imagine having to repeatedly over the course of a year change major components like your video card or motherboard just to continue playing the movies/music that you bought.  What do you do when Microsoft stops supporting Vista and your rights are revoked for all your "premium" content?  Pay Microsoft for Vista II to get back the right to use your property?

I will be avoiding Vista as I advoided XP and will not be upgrading my DVD player to HD-DVD or BluRay as they incorporate versions of this DRM as well.  The only way to kill off the DRM is to do so with your $$. 
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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 07:50:22 pm »
My main question is whether or not the DRM checks everything every 30ms all the time or just if one has HD components/drivers and is playing something. This is a question that needs a sloid yes or no answer. Dancing around the issue as they are doing makes me think the answer is going to be yes. If it does, I"m not touching it. If it doesn't, I'll at least take a look.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 07:55:30 pm »
My main question is whether or not the DRM checks everything every 30ms all the time or just if one has HD components/drivers and is playing something.

There have been claims that minor power fluctuations can cause the DRM to kick in mid stream IF those claims are accurate then it would seem so.
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Offline Javora

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 07:59:22 pm »
I heard a quote of Bill Gates on the radio saying that Vista's DRM would put more strain on the computers hardware so I'm guessing that the DRM is running all the time.  Constant monitoring would be the only thing that would keep the MPAA/RIAA happy so it doesn't surprise me one bit.  I'm avoiding Vista for a while at least, it's not like there is any games out there that need it right now anyway.

Offline MrCue

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 02:29:24 am »
XP will be the last MS OS that my household uses.

The computers in my house are MINE, and so is any content i choose to play on them.

Offline IAF Lyrkiller

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 11:46:47 pm »
XP will be the last MS OS that my household uses.

The computers in my house are MINE, and so is any content i choose to play on them.

Here! here!! :)




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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 05:07:15 am »
maybe totally unrelated, but the bloggers are suggesting to buy a mac since you'll have to get a new machine to run vista anyway.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/16555680.htm
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Offline [ISC]Phaser

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 06:06:25 am »
Ok folks, if you have Vista installed well good luck and good luck to any of your software, movies and music files. Alot of "digging" has been done into MS new Vista OS and its EULA and the very fine print.

If MS see's that you have "pirated" software namely movies and music then guess what, they MS holds and has the RIGHT to remove said music. movies and other pirtated programs without your concent or knowledge.

Good luck, I am not touching Vista period. This is intrusuion to the hilt.



Vista's legal fine print raises red flags

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/175801

While those reviews have focused chiefly on Vista's new functionality, for the past few months the legal and technical communities have dug into Vista's "fine print." Those communities have raised red flags about Vista's legal terms and conditions as well as the technical limitations that have been incorporated into the software at the insistence of the motion picture industry.


READ THE BELOW FINE PRINT

Vista's legal fine print includes extensive provisions granting Microsoft the right to regularly check the legitimacy of the software and holds the prospect of deleting certain programs without the user's knowledge. During the installation process, users "activate" Vista by associating it with a particular computer or device and transmitting certain hardware information directly to Microsoft.

Even after installation, the legal agreement grants Microsoft the right to revalidate the software or to require users to reactivate it should they make changes to their computer components. In addition, it sets significant limits on the ability to copy or transfer the software, prohibiting anything more than a single backup copy and setting strict limits on transferring the software to different devices or users.

Vista also incorporates Windows Defender, an anti-virus program that actively scans computers for "spyware, adware, and other potentially unwanted software." The agreement does not define any of these terms, leaving it to Microsoft to determine what constitutes unwanted software.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 11:04:07 am »
Indeed, I have a discount upgrade coupon for Vista.  I bought XP Pro for a new computer a couple of months ago.  I have absolutely no intention of using it.  It was like pulling teeth to get me to buy XP.  I was perfectly happy with Win 2K.  Microsoft will lose the hard core computer user with this, but there's enough casual users that they will survive.
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Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 04:15:36 pm »
I dunno... but for the average user that doesn't wish to have pirated software or spyware on the machine, Vista looks like a nice product. 

I will just point out that in my personal experience the most violent voices against vista happen to be the friends of mine that I know for a fact have thousands of dollars of pirated music and software.  (Of course most of them will talk until they are blue in the face in the attempt to validate their theft "Music is free on the radio... why not the internet?")

I am not accusing anyone here of that status... however I find it odd that when I read about all the "nefarious" ill-doing of Microsoft the network administrator in me rejoices in features that will stamp out illegal software, Mp3s and spyware. 

I really don't fear the conversion of my campus to vista... kinda looking forward to it.  My home machine?  Probably go to vista once I am familiar enough with it to decide it is worth the move.

GE-Raven

Offline Javora

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 06:37:01 pm »
For the most part I agree with Raven about Vista.  The only things that I hate is that RIAA/MPAA his this idea that fair use shouldn't actually exist.  And I think it is only a matter of time before the DRM is used to delete all the MP3's that I copied off of my CD's so I could listen to that music on my MP3 player.  That and the fact that if I don't have all the expensive hardware I might not be able to watch/listen to the Movies/Music that I bought or at the very least not how it was intended to be viewed/listened.  What of the people that bought the HD monitors for their computer already, with Vista more than likely they are going to have to buy that same expensive hardware all over again just to use HD movies as intended.  Or that even if I bought that expensive hardware that is Vista approved it may not be valid sometime down the road because it was found out that some idiot was able to hack to that piece of hardware.  Who wants to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for something that may not work as intended because it was found out to be hackable??!?  Not to mention the CPU drain just to constantly check DRM.


Other than that...  Yeah I think Vista would be nice.   ;D


Seriously there has to be a more fair/middle ground than what is being presented by Microsoft in Vista.

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 07:05:09 pm »
Quote
Once operational, the agreement warns that Windows Defender will, by default, automatically remove software rated "high" or "severe," even though that may result in other software ceasing to work or mistakenly result in the removal of software that is not unwanted.

So when Vista decides that some of my non Microsoft software is dangerous it can delete it whether I want to or not?  So my OpenOffice can be deleted with no recourse on my part?

Quote
For greater certainty, the terms and conditions remove any doubt about who is in control by providing that "this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." For those users frustrated by the software's limitations, Microsoft cautions that "you may not work around any technical limitations in the software."

When it does delete that software I'm not even allowed to work around it?

What will a business do when the file deleted by a Windows Defender update is a mission critical file.  Part of your Oracle database or your payroll system or accounts recievablefor example? 

No sale.  I don't see how any serious business can risk putting their software and data on Vista with these "features" and license terms.

A couple of things to remember.  The DR-DOS detection routines used to crash Windows betas in a way that persuaded developers that DR-DOS was incompatible with Windows.  The internal Microsoft memo stating that if needed to compete with Palm they would change Windows to make it less compatible with the Palm software.  Simply put given their history I don't trust Microsoft not to set Windows Defender to delete competing software components with the solution given to customers "Buy our software instead".
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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2007, 08:45:16 pm »
Well, I have to admit that I have downloaded Defender and have used it for a while. So far, nothing bad has happened with it. Notice the "so far" at the beginning of the last sentence.
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Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2007, 08:10:59 am »

So when Vista decides that some of my non Microsoft software is dangerous it can delete it whether I want to or not?  So my OpenOffice can be deleted with no recourse on my part?

Yes that is exactly what it means  ::) ::) ::)  Come on people!  Quit fear mongering... you know damn well that this would NEVER happen because it is would be the most stupid thing MS could possibly do.  In my experience I have not seen windows defender, in its current incarnation, remove ANYTHING that was of any use to anyone but the makers of spyware looking to rip you off!
 
Quote

When it does delete that software I'm not even allowed to work around it?

What will a business do when the file deleted by a Windows Defender update is a mission critical file.  Part of your Oracle database or your payroll system or accounts recievablefor example? 

No sale.  I don't see how any serious business can risk putting their software and data on Vista with these "features" and license terms.

A couple of things to remember.  The DR-DOS detection routines used to crash Windows betas in a way that persuaded developers that DR-DOS was incompatible with Windows.  The internal Microsoft memo stating that if needed to compete with Palm they would change Windows to make it less compatible with the Palm software.  Simply put given their history I don't trust Microsoft not to set Windows Defender to delete competing software components with the solution given to customers "Buy our software instead".

Because any serious business knows that it is very much part of MS interests to make sure none of this happens.  Believe it or not companies that wish to make money still need to have happy consumers.  Now the fact of life is that the business PC is a HUGE chunk of profit for MS... therefore it only makes sense to me that satisfying the Network Admin's dreams is a big part of their equation. 

It really is humorous... but I have yet to see one "dire" prediction about Microsoft's abuse of power over the last 10 years come to fruition.  I have never seen a legal activity, a business function, or piece of data, intentionally hindered by an MS product. 

Now I have seen them make several attempts to corner markets, and "incorporate" the "new hot thing" into their OS.  However if I were them, I believe I would do the same thing. 

GE-Raven

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 08:20:01 am »
Honestly, I'd much rather have an operating system that didn't rifle through my files looking for misbehavior.  Hence, I won't be getting Vista unless I can help it.
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Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 12:06:26 pm »
Honestly, I'd much rather have an operating system that didn't rifle through my files looking for misbehavior.  Hence, I won't be getting Vista unless I can help it.

That is completely your choice to make... Unless you are on a computer owned by my University... then it would be my choice to make.  I personally don't care if it is on my work or my home pc as I am not in the least bit concerned that it will effect my computer in any way shape or form for a negative.

However I don't see that it "rifles" through anything.  Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.  Again not something that will really change anything for me... However I can understand how this would scare the bejesus out of many computer users.

For those wondering if your "legally ripped" mp3s will be deleted... my understanding is that if you legally ripped them in the last few years with any of the tools that can be employed for legal ripping.  You will have nothing to fear, for in your legal ripping you proved you had the license by having the machine rip it from a cd.  At worst you may need to legally rip a cd again...

The horror!

GE-Raven


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Offline Javora

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 01:33:39 pm »

For those wondering if your "legally ripped" mp3s will be deleted... my understanding is that if you legally ripped them in the last few years with any of the tools that can be employed for legal ripping.  You will have nothing to fear, for in your legal ripping you proved you had the license by having the machine rip it from a cd.  At worst you may need to legally rip a cd again...

The horror!

GE-Raven.

What utter crap, I have over a 100 CD's, I don't want to be forced to recopy all of them just to sadate the paranoia of the RIAA.  Then again I don't want to have to buy an new HD monitor because some idiot found a way to copy movies from it.  Like I said Microsoft need a far more middle ground to both the RIAA/MPAA and more importantly the customers then what is offered in Vista.  Fair-use right are being trampled here in a big way, and our time and hard earned money may be thrown away because of it.

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2007, 01:52:33 pm »
Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.

Having a machine continually checking up their in-home activities is a serious violation of anyone's privacy.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2007, 03:51:08 pm »
Now if you decide to launch a file or program it may use its license checking ability to confirm that you are indeed the owner of this file or program.

Having a machine continually checking up their in-home activities is a serious violation of anyone's privacy.

Um.. not if the only "activity" being checked is license status.  It ain't sending info to microsoft that says "bob johnson likes porn!"  It would send info to the porn movie license holder (owner of the copyrighted material) and make sure that the license attached is valid.  All can be done without a single bit of personal information (other than the mac address of your network card, and IP address... but that is given to every server you touch on the web, so pretty hard to get pissy about that...)

Now google taskbar and desktop?  Now you might be having some privacy issues... but it isn't cool to slam Google... that is microsoft's job.

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Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2007, 04:01:29 pm »

What utter crap, I have over a 100 CD's, I don't want to be forced to recopy all of them just to sadate the paranoia of the RIAA.  Then again I don't want to have to buy an new HD monitor because some idiot found a way to copy movies from it.  Like I said Microsoft need a far more middle ground to both the RIAA/MPAA and more importantly the customers then what is offered in Vista.  Fair-use right are being trampled here in a big way, and our time and hard earned money may be thrown away because of it.


Then don't buy it.. I for one wouldn't mind re-digitizing them with the new tools, as it would allow for a uniform and higher quality digital form of the song.  Of course that is the music lover in me... 

You can be pissed at the RIAA if you like, however all the measures they are asking for are only there because they represent a HUGE number of music labels.  In other words RIAA is really just a conglomerate of Record Lables... so if you are pissed... you shouldn't have bought those cds at all... cause that is where RIAA's money to cause you such discomfort comes from.

But again if you don't want to digitize your music, you don't have too... I am sure there will be some lovely hacked software (Spyware included of course) that will play all your precious mp3s and not care whether or not you actually own them.    Having not seen vista... maybe it is possible to retroactively add a license to the files by just popping in the cd. 

You can bitch about it all you want... but the fact remains that the only reason DRM is being used is because millions of asshats decided they "deserved" free music that other people had to pay for.  Same for movies... etc...  I really fail to understand why people are mad at the people who are just trying to make sure they don't get ripped off!

Again... I am sure that you personally are blameless and have never stolen music in your life.  However the VAST majority of people have and continue to steal music... (I used to do it too... until I realized what I was really doing.)  It is this fact that has forced the hands of those whose livelyhood depends on the sale of music.

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Offline Javora

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2007, 05:02:17 pm »

Then don't buy it.. I for one wouldn't mind re-digitizing them with the new tools, as it would allow for a uniform and higher quality digital form of the song.  Of course that is the music lover in me... 

You can be pissed at the RIAA if you like, however all the measures they are asking for are only there because they represent a HUGE number of music labels.  In other words RIAA is really just a conglomerate of Record Lables... so if you are pissed... you shouldn't have bought those cds at all... cause that is where RIAA's money to cause you such discomfort comes from.

But again if you don't want to digitize your music, you don't have too... I am sure there will be some lovely hacked software (Spyware included of course) that will play all your precious mp3s and not care whether or not you actually own them.    Having not seen vista... maybe it is possible to retroactively add a license to the files by just popping in the cd. 

You can bitch about it all you want... but the fact remains that the only reason DRM is being used is because millions of asshats decided they "deserved" free music that other people had to pay for.  Same for movies... etc...  I really fail to understand why people are mad at the people who are just trying to make sure they don't get ripped off!

Again... I am sure that you personally are blameless and have never stolen music in your life.  However the VAST majority of people have and continue to steal music... (I used to do it too... until I realized what I was really doing.)  It is this fact that has forced the hands of those whose livelyhood depends on the sale of music.

GE-Raven



Your not going to get higher quality MP3 music from a CD because of the limitations of the medium (the CD).  Nothing is going to be improved in all those "re-digitized MP3" files you are being forced to make just to satisfy Vista.  You are going to have to wait and buy a new HD-DVD if it comes out.  Otherwise you are paying for a OS that will make you jump through hoops for nothing as I'm just as sure that you have bought all of your CD's as well.  And you are in fact correct I have never copied a CD that I do not own, nor have I ever downloaded any music illegally or legally.  I always buy the CD that way I know I'm covered.

So for me it is in insult treating me like a thief when I have played by the RIAA/MPAA's rules even as they try to violate our rights to fair-use.  If you like being treated like a thief than that is your prerogative, I personally am insulted and have every right to be.  The minute my iRiver MP3 player is deemed a risk by the RIAA and I have to spend $300 to buy a new one I'm going to be pissed.  Or worse I have to spend another $400~600 on a new video card just because the MPAA doesn't feel good about HD movies on being played on my computer with the video card I already own for Vista.  As of right now no proof needs to be shown for the RIAA/MPAA to do this sort of thing, at least now as far as what has been released by the media.

Now sure I could hide myself in a cave and never watch another movie or listen to any popular music ever again.  But as a person I don't feel like I should have to be punished because I am not breaking the law.  Yet again, all I'm saying is that Microsoft should have put forth something more far more middle ground to both the customers and the RIAA/MPAA.  What we see in Vista does not favor the customers at all in regards to fair-use.

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2007, 06:24:36 pm »
Um.. not if the only "activity" being checked is license status.  It ain't sending info to microsoft that says "bob johnson likes porn!"  It would send info to the porn movie license holder (owner of the copyrighted material) and make sure that the license attached is valid.  All can be done without a single bit of personal information (other than the mac address of your network card, and IP address... but that is given to every server you touch on the web, so pretty hard to get pissy about that...)

Not hard to get pissy about it at all considering that if I own the computer, whatever's on it belongs to me and no one without a badge and a warrant should have the right to see what's there.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline DookeyKing

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 07:05:37 pm »
Firstly,  I have no intention of "upgrading" to Vista just to pad Microsoft's bottom line.  There's nothing wrong with XP.

Secondly, regarding DRM, Microsoft and the entertainment industry have no more right to check my PC for illegal software or media than they do to walk in my house and look at my CD/DVD library.  The fact that the US government allows these aggressively invasive organizations to continuously  violate our constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom from unreasonable search just shows how much money the entertainment industry spends in Washington.  Regardless of how legal your software/entertainment collection is, I don't see how any consumer can actually defend this kind of anti-consumer behavior.

I am highly confident that my next OS upgrade will be a Linux flavor.

Scott

Offline GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2007, 09:35:42 am »


Your not going to get higher quality MP3 music from a CD because of the limitations of the medium (the CD).  Nothing is going to be improved in all those "re-digitized MP3" files you are being forced to make just to satisfy Vista.  You are going to have to wait and buy a new HD-DVD if it comes out.  Otherwise you are paying for a OS that will make you jump through hoops for nothing as I'm just as sure that you have bought all of your CD's as well.  And you are in fact correct I have never copied a CD that I do not own, nor have I ever downloaded any music illegally or legally.  I always buy the CD that way I know I'm covered.

So for me it is in insult treating me like a thief when I have played by the RIAA/MPAA's rules even as they try to violate our rights to fair-use.  If you like being treated like a thief than that is your prerogative, I personally am insulted and have every right to be.  The minute my iRiver MP3 player is deemed a risk by the RIAA and I have to spend $300 to buy a new one I'm going to be pissed.  Or worse I have to spend another $400~600 on a new video card just because the MPAA doesn't feel good about HD movies on being played on my computer with the video card I already own for Vista.  As of right now no proof needs to be shown for the RIAA/MPAA to do this sort of thing, at least now as far as what has been released by the media.

Now sure I could hide myself in a cave and never watch another movie or listen to any popular music ever again.  But as a person I don't feel like I should have to be punished because I am not breaking the law.  Yet again, all I'm saying is that Microsoft should have put forth something more far more middle ground to both the customers and the RIAA/MPAA.  What we see in Vista does not favor the customers at all in regards to fair-use.



Heh chose the wrong dance partner here.  The "limitations" of the medium of a CD are so far beyond the "portable" digitized files as to be nearly indistinguishable.  CD Audio is in PCM format Pulsed Code Modulation.  There is zero compression in this format.. meaning that if your 8 bit digital signal is 11100110 the signal sent to the decoder is XXXOOXXO (electrical pulses).  IN the case of CD audio it is in 16 bit 44.1 kHz stereo.  Meaning 4,410 samples are taken every second for wave changes.  This takes up alot of space.  Every minute of audio takes a little over 10 MB of space so a 650 MB CD can hold approximately 60 minutes of music.   Now in contrast Mp3 is compressed meaning these "samples" are approximated over the playing time.  The "standard" compression rates for Mp3 audio is normally discussed in Kbit (128 is pretty standard for most music ripping software).  This is how many bits are sampled over the time frame.  For voice and music 128 is not bad as far as loss of data.  However Mp3 is actually quite old.  Widowns Music Audio is actually a superior quality in sound fidelity to size ratio.  My Mp3 Player at home has 95% of the tracks in 256 Kbit mp3 except for the few tracks I have purchased online and not had a choice in sound quality.  However for choral and especially orchestral music I easily notice the difference between the realtively high quality 256 Kbit an PCM audio of the CD.  With a high end sound system almost every one would notice the difference.

The fact is the compression is obtained by "killing" the information outside "normal" hearing AND speaking range.  Now obviously there is very little loss from not taking data outside human auditory ability (interestingly enough though sounds that are "sub" human hearing do effect overtones in the rest of the sound so it does indeed "matter")  The big loss is the fact that music has a lot of sound that is outside normal speaking range.  This is why 96 Kbit Mp3 get tinny sounding especially for high-hat and cymbals.

For a good guide to a lot of the "standard" codecs:
http://www.teamcombooks.com/mp3handbook/12.htm

But the new windows media player in vista supports many of the new codecs which are designed to maximize fidelity while not breaking the bank when it comes to disk space.  When you get to video... it gets FAR more complicated.  However there is NO compressed audio that will ever (by definition) hold a candle to uncompressed PCM digital audia.  The CD is KING when it comes to sound reproduction with only the old Reel to Reel tape in analog recording as a challenger.

So yeah... I certainly will get "better" recordings as time goes on.  BTW in my opinion Microsoft is not limiting your "fair use"  you are.  You still have all the options available to you... if you wish to use Microsoft's tools to help you utilize your media then you are indeed choosing to accept their limitations on the use of THEIR tools. 

If you want to buy a gun without a safety on it... you are welcome to do so.  You are also free to complain to the gun company for including a safety.  However don't fault the company for choosing to include a safety on the gun if it behooves them to have one.  The reason microsoft is capitulating to the music and video industry is that they are indeed worried that lawsuits could be filed if THEIR tools are used to violate someone else's copyright.  Given the computing history of users who have indeed used it to that effect, I do not blame them.

GE-Raven


 

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2007, 09:49:00 am »

Secondly, regarding DRM, Microsoft and the entertainment industry have no more right to check my PC for illegal software or media than they do to walk in my house and look at my CD/DVD library.  The fact that the US government allows these aggressively invasive organizations to continuously  violate our constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom from unreasonable search just shows how much money the entertainment industry spends in Washington.  Regardless of how legal your software/entertainment collection is, I don't see how any consumer can actually defend this kind of anti-consumer behavior.


Again you are failing to see the difference and reality of the software in question.  It is not checking for illegal software UNLESS YOU RUN the software.  It is merely checking that you indeed have a license for software you are running.  In other words they aren't coming into your home to check your cabinet... they are checking that you actually paid for it at the register, so to speak.

Lets clear a few things up that I think people really fail to understand about ownership.  You own a book... that is true... you OWN the book.  You do not however own the words within that book.  You see the words, the thoughts, the communication within that book are the property of the those that wrote, published, and sold the book.  Furthermore it will continue to be that person's property for about 75 years after their death.  In honorable societies of days gone past it was held as theirs forever.  Indeed we still credit Charles Dickens for A Christmas Carol despite the fact no one affiliated with him or his family see a dime of money from it.  So until literature enters the public domain... it is owned by the one who wrote it.  The same rules were chosen to apply to Audio and Visual mediums.  You can buy a painting but the image is not yours.  You can buy a copy of the score of West Side Story, but you don't own the music on the page.  You can buy a Victrola record of Louis Armstrong at Preservation Hall in New Orleans.  But you do not own the tones that emanate from it.

This is where the Fair use comes into play.  It is a MESS to decipher in todays age.  Once upon a time you could lend a book... but it was way to laborious for someone to physically copy down the words to give to a friend, so there was little problem.  One book read by one person at a time.  Now I won't get into fair use right now, because frankly that is a huge mess with complicated rules that grow by the day.  But the fact remains that ALL pop music, All Hollywood blockbusters, All E-books, are not "owned" by the person that bought them.  What you have purchased is the right to enjoy those works in various ways.  The rights you have are many... but indeed the rights of the creator of them are much greater.  For it is their livelihood that depends on people respecting those rights.  In today's age it is extraordinarily easy to deprive the creator of the art their rights... this is where the problem lies.  The lack of respect for the rights of the artist.

GE-Raven

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2007, 11:04:32 am »
Well at the end of the day the businesses and consumers will decide whether or not they decide to upgrade to Vista. Whilst you raise some valid points Raven, there are people that are looking at Vista from different specific points of view. You raise the valid and important point about artists, music corporations etc trying to protect their intellectual property rights, but I believe that they are going about it the completely wrong way. They should be finding other alternatives to stop the distribution of illegal music either by shutting down these networks, or alternatively encouraging people to legally download music, as seen in example with iTunes.

I find the fact that Vista can scan your PC for files that it may deem as being unlicensed intrusive, and ultimately a violation of your personal liberty. I can understand to an extent (but only just) Microsoft scanning for some of their own products, making sure your Windows copy when activated for the first time is valid, or checking its own other software products such as Office. But I don’t agree with allowing them the right to scan or validate for stuff that quite frankly is none of their business or is not part of Microsoft’s software property.

Another gripe I have with this is what if the detection/license validation procedures for some software is incorrect. There are bound to be situations where Vista can’t accurately validate a license, what happens if the product/software is in fact legal but Vista makes an error?

It’s a fact that Software/Game publishers are becoming more intrusive, look at the example recently of Electronic Arts. Their Battlefield 2142 comes with added spyware, which gathers data on you and will display in game ads on the map based on your “surfing habits”.

I will be sticking with XP despite the gripes I have had with it in the past such as asking me to re-activate when I have carried out hardware upgrades, which I find ridiculous.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 04:28:45 pm by Grim »

Offline Javora

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2007, 04:25:00 pm »

Heh chose the wrong dance partner here.


Not really, I have no problem stomping on peoples toes.  CD are in fact sent to the speakers at 16 bit 44.1 kHz stereo but on on two channels one for each speaker in a stereo system.  Even a DVD can do better than that by 96,000 samples per second and 24 bits per sample.  More importantly DVD can record six channels instead of two.  So yes there are limitations of the CD medium.  So the CD is not "KING when it comes to sound reproduction".


Most people may copy songs to MP3 at 128 bit but my MP3 program (Roxio) is set at highest quality 280K so I'm not losing much if any.  WMA is a lossy audio compression format as well, it also suffers from quality problems from low bit rate conversions like MP3 does.  It is certainly not superior to MP3, in fact here is a good site that compares to two formats:  http://ekei.com/audio/

Quotes from the site:  "MP3 is still the top quality standard.  Their emphasis not mine. "Not only does the 64kbps WMA lack in violin detail, but even at 128kbps (which Microsoft touts as "audiophile") suffers from overbrightness".

Another quote from the same site:  "To all my tests, we have been completely unable to separate the original from the compressed".  Which I find interesting from the statement you made:  "However for choral and especially orchestral music I easily notice the difference between the relatively high quality 256 Kbit an PCM audio of the CD".  How is that??!?  Is your ears that vastly superior to everyone else in the world??!?  Or maybe you haven't actually put your ears to the test like the people at MaximumPC did.  I can't find the actual article at MaximumPC but I did find this site that describes what the people at MaximumPC did.  You can read it here:  http://www.latinpulsemusic.com/articles/show/3

Yes Microsoft is limiting our fair use that have been established in the courts.  They are using their market share to cram these over restrictive policies in Vista down our throats much the same way Microsoft tried to force MS Explorer upon us at the expense of Netscape.  Just because you refuse to recognize those rights much like a rabid anti-gun nut refuses to recognize the 2nd amendment doesn't mean those rights don't exist.


Quote
The reason microsoft is capitulating to the music and video industry is that they are indeed worried that lawsuits could be filed if THEIR tools are used to violate someone else's copyright.


That is flat out wrong, if that was the case Microsoft would already have been sued for allowing any and all commercial DVD's that people use now to be copied on Microsoft's WinXP platform.  The reason why Microsoft put all of these over restrictave policies in place is because Microsoft wants the PC in everyone's living room instead of bedrooms and/or den in the form of Media PC.  Microsoft can't achieve that without the ability to play HD-DVD's.  MPAA won't allow Microsoft's Vista to play HD-DVD without those restrictive DRM's in place.




+1 for Grim for that excellent post.

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2007, 12:07:10 pm »

So when Vista decides that some of my non Microsoft software is dangerous it can delete it whether I want to or not?  So my OpenOffice can be deleted with no recourse on my part?


Yes that is exactly what it means  ::) ::) ::)  Come on people!  Quit fear mongering... you know damn well that this would NEVER happen because it is would be the most stupid thing MS could possibly do.  In my experience I have not seen windows defender, in its current incarnation, remove ANYTHING that was of any use to anyone but the makers of spyware looking to rip you off!


So your saying that Microsoft would never do things to make competitors software fail in some way (as they did with DR-DOS on developers versions of Windows) or even by accident like Symantec recently did do?  You may remember another case long ago where PKZip was flagged as a virus?  A new version of PKZip had to be released because the anti virus company didn't respond quickly enough.

I'm sure they'll check to make sure that they don't foul up their own software but how can I trust them not to either accidentally or purposefully do so to competitors software?

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Screw Sun, Crossplatform will never work.  Lets move on and steal the Java language.


That is their philosophy in a nut shell and why I don't trust them not to use their power to delete competing software.
 
Quote
When it does delete that software I'm not even allowed to work around it?

What will a business do when the file deleted by a Windows Defender update is a mission critical file.  Part of your Oracle database or your payroll system or accounts recievablefor example? 

No sale.  I don't see how any serious business can risk putting their software and data on Vista with these "features" and license terms.

A couple of things to remember.  The DR-DOS detection routines used to crash Windows betas in a way that persuaded developers that DR-DOS was incompatible with Windows.  The internal Microsoft memo stating that if needed to compete with Palm they would change Windows to make it less compatible with the Palm software.  Simply put given their history I don't trust Microsoft not to set Windows Defender to delete competing software components with the solution given to customers "Buy our software instead".


Because any serious business knows that it is very much part of MS interests to make sure none of this happens.  Believe it or not companies that wish to make money still need to have happy consumers.  Now the fact of life is that the business PC is a HUGE chunk of profit for MS... therefore it only makes sense to me that satisfying the Network Admin's dreams is a big part of their equation. 

It really is humorous... but I have yet to see one "dire" prediction about Microsoft's abuse of power over the last 10 years come to fruition.  I have never seen a legal activity, a business function, or piece of data, intentionally hindered by an MS product. 

Now I have seen them make several attempts to corner markets, and "incorporate" the "new hot thing" into their OS.  However if I were them, I believe I would do the same thing. 

GE-Raven


How is it in Microsofts best interest to not delete competitors software when they can claim its an accident and blame the other companies programming practices?  When installing Windows it will detect prior versions and you can set to dual boot if you wish but it just destroyes existing multiboot abilities into non Microsoft Operating systems.  How is it any different to Microsoft to blow away an installed OS (and applications) compared to just deleting a single portion of a (competing) application?

Every day a competitors software doesn't run is a day that the customer may become a Microsoft customer instead.

"DOS isn't done until Lotus won't run"  Why did Microsoft never deny this was their DOS development slogan when it was all through the computer media?  It always seemd a new version of DOS broke Lotus.  Coincidence?
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2007, 12:38:29 pm »
Again you are failing to see the difference and reality of the software in question.  It is not checking for illegal software UNLESS YOU RUN the software.  It is merely checking that you indeed have a license for software you are running.  In other words they aren't coming into your home to check your cabinet... they are checking that you actually paid for it at the register, so to speak.

The problem is that its not checking at the register, which is of course in the store at which I bought it.  Microsofts systems now intrude into my home and check over and over whether I bought it.  A totally different situation indeed.  Just how often do the other manufacturers of (non software)products that you legitimately bought and paid for enter your home and stop you to search for proper ownership?  Check often enough and of course you will eventually get a false result. 

They also now claim the right to be the sole judge of whether or not I paid for it and may be allowed to use it.  The right to unilaterally revoke the ownership of that copy without recourse for any or no reason.

Lets clear a few things up that I think people really fail to understand about ownership.  You own a book... that is true... you OWN the book.  You do not however own the words within that book. 

I own that book.  I may sell it.  I may loan it.  I may give it away.  I may burn it or sacrifice it to pagan gods.  I may analyze it.  I may write up a review and sell the review.   The only restriction is copying it and distributing those copies to others. 

Software EULAs (in spite of the store reciepts I recieve) try to claim I don't in fact own software the same way.  Who gave software companies this ability to write laws by corporate act of will? 

You see the words, the thoughts, the communication within that book are the property of the those that wrote, published, and sold the book.  Furthermore it will continue to be that person's property for about 75 years after their death. 

Quote
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Note that limited Times section.  Can you name any work that has come out of copyright in the U.S. by that copyright expiring in your lifetime?  How about your fathers?   Maybe your grandfathers.   

The continual retroactive copyright extensions given by the U.S. government effectively establishes a perpetual copyright and violates the constitution of the U.S..

In honorable societies of days gone past it was held as theirs forever.  Indeed we still credit Charles Dickens for A Christmas Carol despite the fact no one affiliated with him or his family see a dime of money from it.  So until literature enters the public domain... it is owned by the one who wrote it.  The same rules were chosen to apply to Audio and Visual mediums.  You can buy a painting but the image is not yours.  You can buy a copy of the score of West Side Story, but you don't own the music on the page.  You can buy a Victrola record of Louis Armstrong at Preservation Hall in New Orleans.  But you do not own the tones that emanate from it.

What society ever had perpetual copyright?  The only ones I can think of were where printers were given rights to specifics works perpetually, not to all works.  The King James bible I believe was given a perpetual copyright held by the crown.

This is where the Fair use comes into play.  It is a MESS to decipher in todays age.  Once upon a time you could lend a book... but it was way to laborious for someone to physically copy down the words to give to a friend, so there was little problem.  One book read by one person at a time.  Now I won't get into fair use right now, because frankly that is a huge mess with complicated rules that grow by the day.  But the fact remains that ALL pop music, All Hollywood blockbusters, All E-books, are not "owned" by the person that bought them.  What you have purchased is the right to enjoy those works in various ways.  The rights you have are many... but indeed the rights of the creator of them are much greater.  For it is their livelihood that depends on people respecting those rights.  In today's age it is extraordinarily easy to deprive the creator of the art their rights... this is where the problem lies.  The lack of respect for the rights of the artist.

GE-Raven

The copy is owned by the purchaser and in spite of media producers attempts to write new laws on the fly the purchaser does in deed own that copy.  What they don't own is the right to distribute copies of it.

How is it a mess?  Just allow me the right to do with those electronic media as I could with prior media plus what is needed to actually use them. 

A computer program for example needs to be able to be copied to my HD for proper use and into memory as well.  Those acts are required for the use of the media.  Tapes and DVDs need to be transmitted to a display device for example.  None of these should be inhibited or cause the media developers to review my ownership of that copy any more than moving to another city causes book publishers to review my ownership of my private library.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2007, 12:44:51 pm »
Um.. not if the only "activity" being checked is license status.  It ain't sending info to microsoft that says "bob johnson likes porn!"  It would send info to the porn movie license holder (owner of the copyrighted material) and make sure that the license attached is valid. 

GE-Raven


How many times has Microsoft had the "bug" where you click no to sending registration information and the software sends it anyhow?   Fixed in patches of course, which get applied after the data has been sent.

An example of Microsoft collecting data.  They of course claim that the data is not retained but they have produced falsified evidence to the U.S. court system so just how much can you trust that word?
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2007, 10:06:38 pm »
Vista has problems with iTunes

Quote
Some currently known compatibility issues with iTunes 7.0.2 and earlier versions include:

    * iTunes Store purchases may not play when upgrading to Windows Vista from Windows 2000 or XP.
    * iPod models with the "Enable Disk Use" option turned off may be unable to update or restore iPod software, and make changes to iPod settings.
    * iPod models configured to Auto Sync and have the "Enable Disk Use" option turned off may require being ejected and reconnected to resync.
    * Ejecting an iPod from the Windows System Tray using the "Safely Remove Hardware" feature may corrupt your iPod. To always safely eject an iPod, choose Eject iPod from the Controls menu within iTunes.
    * Cover Flow animation may be slower than expected.
    * Contacts and calendars will not sync with iPod.


Is the new Microsoft mantra "Windows isn't done until the iPod doesn't run"?
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2007, 01:25:36 am »
1) its says (in regards to playing) only when upgrading (when has there ever been a perfect upgrade for windows... its much better to just do a clean install)
2) it says may not play, which means there are far more variables then you would like me to believe (ie user oriented variables, variables in which MS and Apple have no control over)
3) it doesn't say that it has crippled Itunes or ipod, but says there are compatability issues.  sounds to me that apple didn't try to make sure their software would work on the new vista.
Rob

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2007, 06:32:34 am »
1) its says (in regards to playing) only when upgrading (when has there ever been a perfect upgrade for windows... its much better to just do a clean install)
2) it says may not play, which means there are far more variables then you would like me to believe (ie user oriented variables, variables in which MS and Apple have no control over)
3) it doesn't say that it has crippled Itunes or ipod, but says there are compatability issues.  sounds to me that apple didn't try to make sure their software would work on the new vista.

Perhaps so.  But pro Microsoft people said that every time upgrades broke Lotus.  Microsofts internal memos stated that they should consider breaking compatiblity with the Palm OS to push Windows CE (written right after they swore in court they didn't do that sort of thing).  The famous "knife the baby" quote from Microsoft comes over trying to kill off Apples media player software.  So is this just another knife and another baby?

What single app out there dominates most strongly over the Microsoft version and would aid Microsofts "competition" if it just doesn't work right for a while?  The iPod is trouncing Zune and Microsoft wants that market.  So the question is was it an accident or is it just another case of Microsoft using their monopoly control of Windows to hurt competitors?
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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2007, 09:09:50 am »
Nem. Can you upgrade a Linux install, any of them, and be sure that every program you have installed on there previously will work with the new OS version?
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2007, 09:51:00 am »
Nem. Can you upgrade a Linux install, any of them, and be sure that every program you have installed on there previously will work with the new OS version?


Can you give one example where the Linux kernel, GCC, X11, Gnome or KDE were deliberately changed to break compatibility with a given program? 

Can you give one example where a Microsoft owned program was broken by a Windows or DOS upgrade without the fix being available before the OS was released?

Microsoft has been proven (Windows - DR-DOS and MS-DOS - Stacker)  to have done that and has at least discussed doing it on other occasions (Window - Palm OS).  Microsoft gave Novell the run around on taking part in the Windows 95 beta (info came from the current Comes vs Microsoft trial in Iowa).  Amont other things they wanted the names of every programmer and every site they sent Novells own beta software to.  Nice to be able to use your monopoly clout to get your competitors lists of major customers and software developers so you can target them for special "attention".  Would you give your competitor the list of your primary customers and developers when they explicitly state that they won't give you the equivalent?  Abusive, illegal monopoly behaviour as judged by multiple courts.

The development system for Linux distributions is different.  The core elements are all available for anyone whether yourself or a major corporation (even Microsoft) to take part in or just test through all phases of development.  The major distributions (such as Redhat and SuSE) do their beta work equally publically.  No one is excluded from being able to fully test their software before it goes gold.  Has a Linux distribution broken compatiblity with old software?  Yes (Redhat using a cutting edge GCC variant with some "issues"), was it publically known before the release?  Also yes.  Was there information available to allow fixes to be generated by the software creators before the final release of the distribution?  Yes again. 

There is the difference, why it is done and how publically its done.  Linux has done so in the open for technical reasons, Microsoft does it in the dark to destroy or damage competitors.

Did Apple have access to each of the many versions of Vista for testing or just a generic beta?  I never heard that the many variations had public betas so I doubt it.  So even if their software worked with the generic beta they couldn't know about the multiple final versions.

You see it isn't that Vista breaks some compatibility with the past it is that once again Microsoft is doing so to a major competitor.  Software that Microsoft itself should have been testing to make sure it worked.  In fact there is every reason to believe that Microsoft employees did test it and should have reported it as a bug.  ([spoiler]source link "About 80 percent of Microsoft employees who have a portable music player have an iPod," said one source, a high-level manager who asked to remain anonymous. "It's pretty staggering."  Done as a spoiler as it is evidence not part of the argument itself.[/spoiler])

What Microsoft has illegally done in the past has happened again.  Could it be an accident?  Yes.  Is it an accident that they should have prevented?  Also yes.  Because of their past behaviour they look guilty, just like any other serial criminal where a crime may have occurred and evidence links to them.  I doubt their innocence because so many times before it has been proven the blood is on their hands.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2007, 01:38:50 pm »
Perhaps so.  But pro Microsoft people said that every time upgrades broke Lotus.  Microsofts internal memos stated that they should consider breaking compatiblity with the Palm OS to push Windows CE (written right after they swore in court they didn't do that sort of thing).  The famous "knife the baby" quote from Microsoft comes over trying to kill off Apples media player software.  So is this just another knife and another baby?

What single app out there dominates most strongly over the Microsoft version and would aid Microsofts "competition" if it just doesn't work right for a while?  The iPod is trouncing Zune and Microsoft wants that market.  So the question is was it an accident or is it just another case of Microsoft using their monopoly control of Windows to hurt competitors?

Possibly, but i'm not going to read into a compatability issue without knowing all the pertanet facts.  Memos and e-mails that take place inside a company are not facts enough to prove that they actually acted upon it, especially since i know from my beta exp that there are more proggies out there that just dont' work w/ vista
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2007, 04:29:56 pm »
Memos and e-mails that take place inside a company are not facts enough to prove that they actually acted upon it,


So how about their prior convictions?  Is that enough to place them on your suspects list when major 3rd party apps that Microsofts competes directly with fail to run on a new OS?

Just remember you can always get the Linux Genuine Advantage™ if your feel the need.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2007, 08:01:24 pm »
i thought it was innocent till proven guilty in this country nem.  They haven't been charged w/ anything concerning this incident to date have they?  is anyone looking to press charges?  Has there been a court case on this incident concerning vista in which they lost?  sorry thos past conviction don't bare any light onto their motives, if any.  They are only brought forward by those who have a grudge that are looking for something as proof that they are still doing said actions.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2007, 08:25:52 pm »
i thought it was innocent till proven guilty in this country nem.  They haven't been charged w/ anything concerning this incident to date have they?  is anyone looking to press charges?  Has there been a court case on this incident concerning vista in which they lost?  sorry thos past conviction don't bare any light onto their motives, if any.  They are only brought forward by those who have a grudge that are looking for something as proof that they are still doing said actions.


I'm judging them by their history.  If they are guilty now as I suspect it will be years before that evidence comes out even if a trial were begun today.  So we only have the past plus their current visible actions to judge by.

Consider that they were ordered as part of their punishment for the actions they were convicted of to publish certain programming APIs.  They were given 5 years.  Those years are past and they haven't complied.  They are now talking of how the 2 year extension they were given may not be enough.  In that time they have written a whole new OS version but can't figure out how to document the APIs that are used in it?  That to me shows that they are not complying with the law and are still continuing their pattern of crimes.  They are also overdue in providing similar material in the EU (the reason for the big fines in the last year).   More of that continuing criminal pattern.

In the last year they decided to make a specification of their new XML format for Office 2007, they have managed to write ~7,000 pages and get it through the ECMA standards group and are now trying to get it fast tracked through ISO.  Yet in over 5 years they couldn't document their APIs?   To me that smacks of defying the court system and they should be harshly punished for willfully disobeying the courts.

As to innocent until proven guilty it is a good principle.   When a career burglar moves next door and acts as if he is casing your house then you have break ins who is the first person investigated?  He may still be legally innocent but he is still the first investigated because of his past.   Microsoft has that past and has never shown public proof of their reforming.  In fact here is a link from Oct 2005 where they tried their illegal exclusive license deal again and had to back off when caught.  Seems to me that it illustrates that all of this shows that they haven't changed since their convictions.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2007, 09:13:18 pm »
I'm judging them by their history.  If they are guilty now as I suspect it will be years before that evidence comes out even if a trial were begun today.  So we only have the past plus their current visible actions to judge by.
Well based upon their current actions concering vista i would say that they are having the same compatability issues they have dealt w/ in every single upgrade.  I know that some software that runs in 98 dont' run on xp, same thing went for vista.  I have had expiernce with installing stuff onto vista, most of it works.  Some of it however acts up a good deal.  It could be that microsoft is doing it on purpose or it could be that the company just took to many programing short cuts and now their proggy won't run on vista as those same shortcuts don't work anymore. 

Consider that they were ordered as part of their punishment for the actions they were convicted of to publish certain programming APIs.  They were given 5 years.  Those years are past and they haven't complied.  They are now talking of how the 2 year extension they were given may not be enough.  In that time they have written a whole new OS version but can't figure out how to document the APIs that are used in it?  That to me shows that they are not complying with the law and are still continuing their pattern of crimes.  They are also overdue in providing similar material in the EU (the reason for the big fines in the last year).   More of that continuing criminal pattern.

Patterns that don't neccesarily coralate to vista, releasing an api is not the same thing as a compatability issue w/ a program, an issue that i do believe apple has patched already.

In the last year they decided to make a specification of their new XML format for Office 2007, they have managed to write ~7,000 pages and get it through the ECMA standards group and are now trying to get it fast tracked through ISO.  Yet in over 5 years they couldn't document their APIs?   To me that smacks of defying the court system and they should be harshly punished for willfully disobeying the courts.
again how does this correlate to vista and to compatability issues.  All i see is you trying to justify your position that microsoft must be doing something, because look, they did this, when that item doesn't deal with an issue that has plaqued windows in every upgrade, maintaing backwards compatability.


The reason i've been posting the way i have is because frankly all you do is post the same old retoric about microsoft.  Nothing new, just the same rants.  Frankly its tiring and just slightly hyporcritial when all you bash is one or two companies, but then won't take the same time and effort into finding flaws in the ones you place on the petistal (ie for you thus far it seems if it ain't open source, it must be bad or the company making said software must have some malicous intent behind it(this is a broad analogy)).  I can understand you hating microsoft.  But i personally think you are letting this hatred go to far and letting it bias you opinions and your research to an extent where they begin to loose crediability.  for example, that last post you made was probably the first one i've read all the way through in a while, as most of the time i can pick up what you are saying by the first sentence or two, because what you are saying is the same stuff you have been repeating for months.

I'm sorry if i'm being harsh, but i felt you needed a bit of an explanation to why i've been singling you out in this thread and in the other thread.
Rob

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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2007, 02:48:36 pm »
Nem. Can you upgrade a Linux install, any of them, and be sure that every program you have installed on there previously will work with the new OS version?


Can you give one example where the Linux kernel, GCC, X11, Gnome or KDE were deliberately changed to break compatibility with a given program? 

Can you give one example where a Microsoft owned program was broken by a Windows or DOS upgrade without the fix being available before the OS was released?

Microsoft has been proven (Windows - DR-DOS and MS-DOS - Stacker)  to have done that and has at least discussed doing it on other occasions (Window - Palm OS).  Microsoft gave Novell the run around on taking part in the Windows 95 beta (info came from the current Comes vs Microsoft trial in Iowa).  Amont other things they wanted the names of every programmer and every site they sent Novells own beta software to.  Nice to be able to use your monopoly clout to get your competitors lists of major customers and software developers so you can target them for special "attention".  Would you give your competitor the list of your primary customers and developers when they explicitly state that they won't give you the equivalent?  Abusive, illegal monopoly behaviour as judged by multiple courts.

The development system for Linux distributions is different.  The core elements are all available for anyone whether yourself or a major corporation (even Microsoft) to take part in or just test through all phases of development.  The major distributions (such as Redhat and SuSE) do their beta work equally publically.  No one is excluded from being able to fully test their software before it goes gold.  Has a Linux distribution broken compatiblity with old software?  Yes (Redhat using a cutting edge GCC variant with some "issues"), was it publically known before the release?  Also yes.  Was there information available to allow fixes to be generated by the software creators before the final release of the distribution?  Yes again. 

There is the difference, why it is done and how publically its done.  Linux has done so in the open for technical reasons, Microsoft does it in the dark to destroy or damage competitors.

Did Apple have access to each of the many versions of Vista for testing or just a generic beta?  I never heard that the many variations had public betas so I doubt it.  So even if their software worked with the generic beta they couldn't know about the multiple final versions.

You see it isn't that Vista breaks some compatibility with the past it is that once again Microsoft is doing so to a major competitor.  Software that Microsoft itself should have been testing to make sure it worked.  In fact there is every reason to believe that Microsoft employees did test it and should have reported it as a bug.  ([spoiler]source link "About 80 percent of Microsoft employees who have a portable music player have an iPod," said one source, a high-level manager who asked to remain anonymous. "It's pretty staggering."  Done as a spoiler as it is evidence not part of the argument itself.[/spoiler])

What Microsoft has illegally done in the past has happened again.  Could it be an accident?  Yes.  Is it an accident that they should have prevented?  Also yes.  Because of their past behaviour they look guilty, just like any other serial criminal where a crime may have occurred and evidence links to them.  I doubt their innocence because so many times before it has been proven the blood is on their hands.


Not to be picky, but you never answered my question.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2007, 07:43:26 pm »
In the last year they decided to make a specification of their new XML format for Office 2007, they have managed to write ~7,000 pages and get it through the ECMA standards group and are now trying to get it fast tracked through ISO.  Yet in over 5 years they couldn't document their APIs?   To me that smacks of defying the court system and they should be harshly punished for willfully disobeying the courts.


again how does this correlate to vista and to compatability issues.  All i see is you trying to justify your position that microsoft must be doing something, because look, they did this, when that item doesn't deal with an issue that has plaqued windows in every upgrade, maintaing backwards compatability.


The correlation is quite simple.   If Microsoft had followed the court orders in both the U.S. and E.U. on documenting those APIs then Apple could have been aware of changes to the APIs and corrected the iPod software.  Microsoft however has not complied with either court order in a usable form despite having had over 5 years in the U.S..  in the E.U. they claim to be unable to write the documentation.   When it comes to documenting their office format they can produce the documentation in months.  Why have they not been able to produce usable documentation for any of their APIs as ordered by courts on 2 continents?  Why can they produce reams of documentation that they want to produce and nothing usable as ordered by the courts?

The reason i've been posting the way i have is because frankly all you do is post the same old retoric about microsoft.  Nothing new, just the same rants.  Frankly its tiring and just slightly hyporcritial when all you bash is one or two companies, but then won't take the same time and effort into finding flaws in the ones you place on the petistal (ie for you thus far it seems if it ain't open source, it must be bad or the company making said software must have some malicous intent behind it(this is a broad analogy)).  I can understand you hating microsoft.  But i personally think you are letting this hatred go to far and letting it bias you opinions and your research to an extent where they begin to loose crediability.  for example, that last post you made was probably the first one i've read all the way through in a while, as most of the time i can pick up what you are saying by the first sentence or two, because what you are saying is the same stuff you have been repeating for months.


When Microsoft complies with the law and stops illegally destroying competition then I will have nothing to complain about on that topic and won't. 

When they stop forcing DRM into the system and claiming more and more rights over my computer and stop trying to write new laws for themselves by changing their EULA on the fly then I will stop complaining about that.

Notice I complain about specific actions and back them up.  You'll also notice that I have defended and yes even complimented Microsoft on occasion.  If you look back through the forums you will see me use the phrase "Kudos to Microsoft" when they did something right.  You'll also see me insisting that a poster who claimed Microsoft had stolen code back it up with evidence or state it as opinion.  So if you look you'll see I don't just "bash" Microsoft, I also compliment them when they earn it and defend them when accused without evidence.

You'll also notice if you reread my postings here that I point out that the iPod incident is suspicous and seems to carry on the pattern of changing Windows to hurt competitor.  I acknowledged repeatedly that it could be inadvertant.  Is it wrong to report suspicious behaviour in a serial criminal that continues to ignore court orders?  Is it wrong to consider that they are likely continuing that illegal behaviour when there has been no sign of remorse, repentence or reformation in them?

I'm sorry if i'm being harsh, but i felt you needed a bit of an explanation to why i've been singling you out in this thread and in the other thread.


I also wonder why so many are willing to just ignore the fact that Microsoft is not in compliance with the law on the documentation of APIs.  Remember that this is supposed to be the "fix" for Microsofts illegal behaviour.  So long as they don't comply with the court orders they are still continuing that behaviour and continuing to profit from it. 

I like to see competition in the market place.  Microsoft has (illegally) destroyed many of their competitors and have not done as ordered by the courts to allow that competition to rebuild. 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 07:54:46 pm by IKV Nemesis »
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2007, 07:52:38 pm »
Nem. Can you upgrade a Linux install, any of them, and be sure that every program you have installed on there previously will work with the new OS version?

Acutually I did and you quoted it.

Quote
Has a Linux distribution broken compatiblity with old software?  Yes (Redhat using a cutting edge GCC variant with some "issues"), was it publically known before the release?  Also yes.  Was there information available to allow fixes to be generated by the software creators before the final release of the distribution?  Yes again. 

That acknowledged that compatibility can be broken between Linux versions.  It also pointed out ways it is different from how Microsoft does it.

I also pointed out how it was different for Linux to break compatibility with the past because everyone can see that break happening if they wish to.  They can also take part in deciding if and how it happens.  Finally they have full information as it is developed to make their software compliant with the changes in Linux. 

When Windows compatiblity is broken can competitors of Microsoft rely on being able to do any of those things?  Know the break is coming, take part is the decisions and be fully informed as it occurs so they can be ready with a new version when it does?  I don't believe so.

Open and transparent VS a closed, proprietary,  abusive monopoly.

Note that the U.S. courts defined Microsoft as "an abusive monopoly" not me.  I merely agree.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2007, 07:20:26 am »
So, what about all the music I have on one computer with all my iTunes music downloaded from CDs?  If I decided I just wanted to do a file transfer over to another computer that I owned under Vista, rather than load each CD individually, would it tell me I was pirating music?  What about if there is a crash and I try to load my music from a backup DVD?
CK

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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2007, 04:35:05 pm »
So, what about all the music I have on one computer with all my iTunes music downloaded from CDs?  If I decided I just wanted to do a file transfer over to another computer that I owned under Vista, rather than load each CD individually, would it tell me I was pirating music?  What about if there is a crash and I try to load my music from a backup DVD?

You don't know until you try it, and to do that you'll need to risk losing your files.  If your stuff is backed up on a HD, watch the indicator light and if it doesn't go as fast as it should, yank the connection and if possible reload the lost files.  If it's on a DVD, hope you don't have a RW version because otherwise your data's safe.


All this makes me VERY happy I switched to Macintosh.
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Offline RazalYllib

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2007, 07:00:23 pm »
My 2 coppers...

As far as I know, once something has been "digitized" there is zero technical limitation, given the proper motivation, to making a bit for bit copy. That is the very nature of digital medium makes this possible...perfect reproduction bit for bit no error possible by design. Easy pickings for those who make their day to day living from pirated material are motivators for individuals to crack something. In the due course of time, the problem will still remain because the battle between copyright holders and pirates is tit for tat and in some ways unwinable on either side, just continuous back and forth wasting resources that could be used elsewhere.

There is no real protection from a dvd pirate going down to wally world, picking up the first day release of a feature, placing in the tray of commercially available dvd player and taking the digital output signal and re-encoding on the fly with zero loss of signal. Takes a bit of doing and the right tools all available right now off the shelf as it were; plus a working knowledge of electronics to disassemble a dvd player and solder the connectors, it can be done...no license needed when u bundle it back up and encode. Furthermore, Vista will be unable to stop the playing or reproduction of said copied media due to fact that it is encoded in an open standard where there is no DRM for backwards compatibility.

As for the mp3 thing...any lossy compression of music is evil...any promotion of any codec that is inherantly lossy is a clear sign of mental abberition of a most severe sort and if you really feel that way, I would suggest you urgently seek proffessional help.

What they need to do is make 500gig players and you load your whole collection as wav and you never have to sacrifice sonic perfection for space ever again.

The DRM process is bothersome ...if you can kill it to optimize cpu resources that you as the end user want to use for other tasks, such as high end gaming, or say CAD or home rendering if that is your thing, I really see no impact, but if you cannot kill, disable such garbage as needed it is bad for the end user due to the fact that it limits their choices by sucking up cpu cycles on garbage.

Thats my take on it. With XP I can trim the total commit charge down really small on my low end boxes and it makes a big difference when gaming on them. If Vista will not let me do that, I want no part of it. The DRM is non issue for me, I dont pirate and the only music I dl is free deadstuff in open circulation. Occassionally I will watch a DvD but usually just for the features on DvDs and the like, but not as a matter of routine.

 
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Offline Just plain old Punisher

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2007, 07:34:35 pm »
So, what about all the music I have on one computer with all my iTunes music downloaded from CDs?  If I decided I just wanted to do a file transfer over to another computer that I owned under Vista, rather than load each CD individually, would it tell me I was pirating music?  What about if there is a crash and I try to load my music from a backup DVD?

You don't know until you try it, and to do that you'll need to risk losing your files.  If your stuff is backed up on a HD, watch the indicator light and if it doesn't go as fast as it should, yank the connection and if possible reload the lost files.  If it's on a DVD, hope you don't have a RW version because otherwise your data's safe.


All this makes me VERY happy I switched to Macintosh.

Bah! I hope you enjoy your tofu in hell you dirty mac hippy!!!

j/k

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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2007, 11:25:06 am »
So, what about all the music I have on one computer with all my iTunes music downloaded from CDs?  If I decided I just wanted to do a file transfer over to another computer that I owned under Vista, rather than load each CD individually, would it tell me I was pirating music?  What about if there is a crash and I try to load my music from a backup DVD?

You don't know until you try it, and to do that you'll need to risk losing your files.  If your stuff is backed up on a HD, watch the indicator light and if it doesn't go as fast as it should, yank the connection and if possible reload the lost files.  If it's on a DVD, hope you don't have a RW version because otherwise your data's safe.


All this makes me VERY happy I switched to Macintosh.

You keep saying things like this that make me wonder- you do remember that I run two macs at home, and one of them is my primary machine, don't you? 
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2007, 08:09:33 pm »
An example of Microsoft finally doing the right thing.  As the Texans say "he needed killing "

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« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 09:15:46 am by IKV Nemesis »
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2007, 01:29:54 pm »
I think that hardlocks are the answer. Make a hardlock fit into a USB drive, make the modular so that they can connect to each other. Have the software saved and able to run off of the hardlock and have a hardware component in the hardlock that has to match the software. The software might be able to be copied, but the hardlock would be much more difficult. Switch out all CD, DVD, HD-DVD drives for usb banks and convert all movies, music, and software to hardlock cartridges . . . JUST STAY OUT OF MY COMPUTER!

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2007, 11:33:20 am »
If it's a hardlock how would that impact the ability to upgrade a computer instead of having to buy a whole new one?
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2007, 07:15:57 pm »
I think that hardlocks are the answer. Make a hardlock fit into a USB drive, make the modular so that they can connect to each other. Have the software saved and able to run off of the hardlock and have a hardware component in the hardlock that has to match the software. The software might be able to be copied, but the hardlock would be much more difficult. Switch out all CD, DVD, HD-DVD drives for usb banks and convert all movies, music, and software to hardlock cartridges . . . JUST STAY OUT OF MY COMPUTER!

Cartridges can be copied too. 

The MAME emulator is an example of that.  It allows playing old video games by running software copies of the old cartridges and machine ROM chips in an emulator that responds as if the programs were in the actual hardware it was designed for.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2007, 03:03:46 am »
As for the mp3 thing...any lossy compression of music is evil...any promotion of any codec that is inherantly lossy is a clear sign of mental abberition of a most severe sort and if you really feel that way, I would suggest you urgently seek proffessional help.

To the true connoisseur, any digitalized music is lossy.  Only analog recordings are acceptable.  Also, solid state amps are no good, true high fidelity requires vacuum tubes.   ;)
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2007, 02:26:20 pm »
The U.S. Department of Transportation view on Vista

Quote
In a memo to his staff, the DOT's CIO Daniel Mintz says he has placed "an indefinite moratorium" on the upgrades as "there appears to be no compelling technical or business case for upgrading to these new Microsoft software products. Furthermore, there appears to be specific reasons not to upgrade."

Among the concerns cited by Mintz are compatibility with software applications currently in use at the department, the cost of an upgrade, and DOT's move to a new headquarters in Washington later this year. "Microsoft Vista, Office 2007, and Internet Explorer [7] may be acquired for testing purposes only, though only on approval by the DOT chief information officer," Mintz writes.


Quote
The DOT's ban on Vista, Internet Explorer 7, and Office 2007 applies to 15,000 computer users at DOT proper who are currently running the Windows XP Professional operating system. The memo indicates that a similar ban is in effect at the Federal Aviation Administration, which has 45,000 desktop users.


I didn't know the FAA had made that decision as well.
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Re: Vista copy protection is defended
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2007, 11:06:24 am »
The U.S. Department of Transportation view on Vista

Quote
In a memo to his staff, the DOT's CIO Daniel Mintz says he has placed "an indefinite moratorium" on the upgrades as "there appears to be no compelling technical or business case for upgrading to these new Microsoft software products. Furthermore, there appears to be specific reasons not to upgrade."

Among the concerns cited by Mintz are compatibility with software applications currently in use at the department, the cost of an upgrade, and DOT's move to a new headquarters in Washington later this year. "Microsoft Vista, Office 2007, and Internet Explorer [7] may be acquired for testing purposes only, though only on approval by the DOT chief information officer," Mintz writes.


Quote
The DOT's ban on Vista, Internet Explorer 7, and Office 2007 applies to 15,000 computer users at DOT proper who are currently running the Windows XP Professional operating system. The memo indicates that a similar ban is in effect at the Federal Aviation Administration, which has 45,000 desktop users.


I didn't know the FAA had made that decision as well.


Standard Operating procedure for any large Business/Org.  We won't be installing it here at our university (which means there is a defacto BAN on it other than student owned machines) until we have evaluated the software ourselves.

I would assume that would be the same for the DOT.  I would be willing to lay a side bet with any takers that by 2008 things will be different.

GE-Raven