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[Vipre]

Doubtful. It probably is a view looking forward on the nacelle. I'd rough estimate the distance between the fins at 45-50 feet. If it were the secondary hull I'd expect that to be doubled.

[Beeblebrox]

Taking another look at the last picture and the first one in the thread I'm forced to say you may be right.  Maybe those fins are the pre-TOS version of the warp nacelle intercoolers. 

I was wondering if the guys making this movie will equip the Enterprise with lasers like it had in The Cage.  Of course given the giant dump that seems to have been taken on Star Trek continuity these days they probably won't.   

[atheorhaven]

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you honestly think after 40+ years a movie set in the TOS era would use the Enterprise from the TV show? The reason the original enterprise wasnt used in TMP was because the model was just too old, clumsy, and lacked the detailing needed for a full blown big screen movie. This new ship is still clearly Matt Jefferies design. With some nice subtle alterations. I grew up watching Kirk, and company trundle through the galaxy, hookng up with green, and blue females, dodging gotho's, giant hands, blobs amoebas, Styrofoam boulders, etc. etc. We all loved it despite the cheese factor. You guys knew how much of a nut i was about modeling the TOS big-E. However looking at this "new" TOS big-E i must say.. i LIKE it! I think JJ Abrams has the right idea. Instead of modifying the old 1960's TOS model to bring it up to speed for todays standard, He "downgraded" the TMP enterprise to TOS specs, and retained the best parts of the TMP ship. Including the hull font. This is a nice blend of the old, and the new, It also make the "new" TOS connie consistent tech wise with all the other series. JJ said he would stay true to trek lore. He said absolutely nothing about not changing the appearance of the technology.
Chris you of all people i would have least expected to mock this ship.
I think most of the TOS purist wont be happy no matter what. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.
To be honest if this Trek is a reboot ala Galactica it may be a good thing. Look at how many old timers protested the new galactica.. Turns out many old school fans. Myself included LIKE the new show. The same could be true with the "new" Trek. We just have to keep an open mind. IDIC.
Now if the Story, Acting, and Plot of the movie sucks. All of this great new artwork will be a waste.

With respect StressPuppy, to each their own..

I think it'd be a lot more of a challenge for them to go with the original ship in the movie.  Then you approach it with the attitude, "How do we make this fresh and exciting?"  "How do we do things with this classic ship that have never been seen before?"

Even looking at the demos over at Chris' site for Nexus Trek and the Legacy mods, plus ST: New Voyages gives the answer.. the original Trek kept everything 2D because of budget problems.  They don't have that problem with this movie.  You can do things with scale and angles that could never been done before, and go for shots that have never been seen.

We have scenes at a planet?  Fantastic.. how many times have we ever seen the TOS Big E drop out of warp and into orbit?  How many times have we seen it go to warp?  Maybe the reason why we never see the Big E fire rear phasers or a rear torpedo tube may be because of problems experienced during this movie.. a rear torpedo misfire taking out part of the superstructure or a phaser coupling overheating and exploding could require a rethink of that part of the design and shutting down and removing those systems in time for TOS for instance..

This is what I'd go for..

And as a sidenote:  the new BSG may be popular with some, but I literally can't watch it.  The "shakycam" thing makes me physically sick to my stomach to watch it.  So the only way I've been even able to think of how to view it would be to run the show through a program like VirtualDub and then run a stability filter on it focused on the ship/ships that are the center of action, cropping out the rest.  Then maybe I can watch it.  If the new movie does the same, I'll have to walk out of it for the same reason.  And not *everything* has to be sex and violence... I see the direction that BSG went to be the same road that Babylon 5: Crusade was asked to walk down, and JMS shut the show down rather than go there.  I *like* not having all that drek in a story.. it means that they have to actually write something, not script:

[i]13:45 [scene]: Dark hallway with female Cylon and human male.  Camera pans, no one is around.  Female Cylon pushes human male against hallway wall and they start to undress.

14:35 [ad lib talking and kissing]

14:55 - 16:59 [scene pushes R rating]

17:00 fade to commercial.[/i]

Now what is actually accomplished in this sort of scene?  You kill three minutes and fifteen seconds of the fourty two or so minutes to tell your story, and you never get that back.  To be honest, if I wanted to see that sort of story, there's adult entertainment shops where I can rent that, and they don't ever have to pretend to be set in space.

I watch science fiction because I want to see a science fiction story, and that means that there has to be a story to watch.  Guess that puts me into the camp that prefers TOS styling, good story telling, and has at least a nodding respect for its fans... as opposed to the beheading and execution of a good story and show in order to make time in the show for soft porn.  And I *hope* that they don't walk down this road..

[Chris Jones]

Yes I do expect JJ Bonehead to pay some attention to how the ship should look - this is TOS - not some (repeating) bastardized (/end repeat) twisted version of it. TMP was moving forward. This is a 're-boot'. How about giving JJ the Boot. The only way I will take this movie seriously is if the ship itself looks, at the very least, like Star Trek Enhanced. Not this freaking absurd abomination with Jet Engines for Warp Nacelles. I am about change, but leave TOS alone, in Star Trek: Enhanced. Gotta Disagree with you Stress, although I love your work.

I don't think I've ever gone off on anything Trek related in all my years of Modding until this crap.

TNG 20.

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you honestly think after 40+ years a movie set in the TOS era would use the Enterprise from the TV show? The reason the original enterprise wasnt used in TMP was because the model was just too old, clumsy, and lacked the detailing needed for a full blown big screen movie. This new ship is still clearly Matt Jefferies design. With some nice subtle alterations. I grew up watching Kirk, and company trundle through the galaxy, hookng up with green, and blue females, dodging gotho's, giant hands, blobs amoebas, Styrofoam boulders, etc. etc. We all loved it despite the cheese factor. You guys knew how much of a nut i was about modeling the TOS big-E. However looking at this "new" TOS big-E i must say.. i LIKE it! I think JJ Abrams has the right idea. Instead of modifying the old 1960's TOS model to bring it up to speed for todays standard, He "downgraded" the TMP enterprise to TOS specs, and retained the best parts of the TMP ship. Including the hull font. This is a nice blend of the old, and the new, It also make the "new" TOS connie consistent tech wise with all the other series. JJ said he would stay true to trek lore. He said absolutely nothing about not changing the appearance of the technology.

Chris you of all people i would have least expected to mock this ship.

I think most of the TOS purist wont be happy no matter what. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.

To be honest if this Trek is a reboot ala Galactica it may be a good thing. Look at how many old timers protested the new galactica.. Turns out many old school fans. Myself included LIKE the new show. The same could be true with the "new" Trek. We just have to keep an open mind. IDIC.

Now if the Story, Acting, and Plot of the movie sucks. All of this great new artwork will be a waste.

[Age]

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you honestly think after 40+ years a movie set in the TOS era would use the Enterprise from the TV show? The reason the original enterprise wasnt used in TMP was because the model was just too old, clumsy, and lacked the detailing needed for a full blown big screen movie. This new ship is still clearly Matt Jefferies design. With some nice subtle alterations. I grew up watching Kirk, and company trundle through the galaxy, hookng up with green, and blue females, dodging gotho's, giant hands, blobs amoebas, Styrofoam boulders, etc. etc. We all loved it despite the cheese factor. You guys knew how much of a nut i was about modeling the TOS big-E. However looking at this "new" TOS big-E i must say.. i LIKE it! I think JJ Abrams has the right idea. Instead of modifying the old 1960's TOS model to bring it up to speed for todays standard, He "downgraded" the TMP enterprise to TOS specs, and retained the best parts of the TMP ship. Including the hull font. This is a nice blend of the old, and the new, It also make the "new" TOS connie consistent tech wise with all the other series. JJ said he would stay true to trek lore. He said absolutely nothing about not changing the appearance of the technology.
Chris you of all people i would have least expected to mock this ship.
I think most of the TOS purist wont be happy no matter what. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.
To be honest if this Trek is a reboot ala Galactica it may be a good thing. Look at how many old timers protested the new galactica.. Turns out many old school fans. Myself included LIKE the new show. The same could be true with the "new" Trek. We just have to keep an open mind. IDIC.
Now if the Story, Acting, and Plot of the movie sucks. All of this great new artwork will be a waste.

With respect StressPuppy, to each their own..

I think it'd be a lot more of a challenge for them to go with the original ship in the movie.  Then you approach it with the attitude, "How do we make this fresh and exciting?"  "How do we do things with this classic ship that have never been seen before?"

Even looking at the demos over at Chris' site for Nexus Trek and the Legacy mods, plus ST: New Voyages gives the answer.. the original Trek kept everything 2D because of budget problems.  They don't have that problem with this movie.  You can do things with scale and angles that could never been done before, and go for shots that have never been seen.

We have scenes at a planet?  Fantastic.. how many times have we ever seen the TOS Big E drop out of warp and into orbit?  How many times have we seen it go to warp?  Maybe the reason why we never see the Big E fire rear phasers or a rear torpedo tube may be because of problems experienced during this movie.. a rear torpedo misfire taking out part of the superstructure or a phaser coupling overheating and exploding could require a rethink of that part of the design and shutting down and removing those systems in time for TOS for instance..

This is what I'd go for..

And as a sidenote:  the new BSG may be popular with some, but I literally can't watch it.  The "shakycam" thing makes me physically sick to my stomach to watch it.  So the only way I've been even able to think of how to view it would be to run the show through a program like VirtualDub and then run a stability filter on it focused on the ship/ships that are the center of action, cropping out the rest.  Then maybe I can watch it.  If the new movie does the same, I'll have to walk out of it for the same reason.  And not *everything* has to be sex and violence... I see the direction that BSG went to be the same road that Babylon 5: Crusade was asked to walk down, and JMS shut the show down rather than go there.  I *like* not having all that drek in a story.. it means that they have to actually write something, not script:

[i]13:45 [scene]: Dark hallway with female Cylon and human male.  Camera pans, no one is around.  Female Cylon pushes human male against hallway wall and they start to undress.

14:35 [ad lib talking and kissing]

14:55 - 16:59 [scene pushes R rating]

17:00 fade to commercial.[/i]

Now what is actually accomplished in this sort of scene?  You kill three minutes and fifteen seconds of the fourty two or so minutes to tell your story, and you never get that back.  To be honest, if I wanted to see that sort of story, there's adult entertainment shops where I can rent that, and they don't ever have to pretend to be set in space.

I watch science fiction because I want to see a science fiction story, and that means that there has to be a story to watch.  Guess that puts me into the camp that prefers TOS styling, good story telling, and has at least a nodding respect for its fans... as opposed to the beheading and execution of a good story and show in order to make time in the show for soft porn.  And I *hope* that they don't walk down this road..

There were no rear firing photons on the Original 1701 as well as possibly phasers only TMP version has rear firing phasers.There are no photons as well in 1701-A only -B would have that being based off of the Excelsior.I will say this that JJ is doing a better jop than Bermon and Braga did with the TNG movies.First Cotact was the only movie which did well not great but well compared to all TMP movies.Why JJ is a big screen producer where as Bermon and Braga aren't.

[Cptn_Pestalence_XC]

You guys never cease to amaze me. Do you honestly think after 40+ years a movie set in the TOS era would use the Enterprise from the TV show? The reason the original enterprise wasnt used in TMP was because the model was just too old, clumsy, and lacked the detailing needed for a full blown big screen movie. This new ship is still clearly Matt Jefferies design. With some nice subtle alterations. I grew up watching Kirk, and company trundle through the galaxy, hookng up with green, and blue females, dodging gotho's, giant hands, blobs amoebas, Styrofoam boulders, etc. etc. We all loved it despite the cheese factor. You guys knew how much of a nut i was about modeling the TOS big-E. However looking at this "new" TOS big-E i must say.. i LIKE it! I think JJ Abrams has the right idea. Instead of modifying the old 1960's TOS model to bring it up to speed for todays standard, He "downgraded" the TMP enterprise to TOS specs, and retained the best parts of the TMP ship. Including the hull font. This is a nice blend of the old, and the new, It also make the "new" TOS connie consistent tech wise with all the other series. JJ said he would stay true to trek lore. He said absolutely nothing about not changing the appearance of the technology.
Chris you of all people i would have least expected to mock this ship.
I think most of the TOS purist wont be happy no matter what. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.
To be honest if this Trek is a reboot ala Galactica it may be a good thing. Look at how many old timers protested the new galactica.. Turns out many old school fans. Myself included LIKE the new show. The same could be true with the "new" Trek. We just have to keep an open mind. IDIC.
Now if the Story, Acting, and Plot of the movie sucks. All of this great new artwork will be a waste.

With respect StressPuppy, to each their own..

I think it'd be a lot more of a challenge for them to go with the original ship in the movie. Then you approach it with the attitude, "How do we make this fresh and exciting?" "How do we do things with this classic ship that have never been seen before?"

Even looking at the demos over at Chris' site for Nexus Trek and the Legacy mods, plus ST: New Voyages gives the answer.. the original Trek kept everything 2D because of budget problems. They don't have that problem with this movie. You can do things with scale and angles that could never been done before, and go for shots that have never been seen.

We have scenes at a planet? Fantastic.. how many times have we ever seen the TOS Big E drop out of warp and into orbit? How many times have we seen it go to warp? Maybe the reason why we never see the Big E fire rear phasers or a rear torpedo tube may be because of problems experienced during this movie.. a rear torpedo misfire taking out part of the superstructure or a phaser coupling overheating and exploding could require a rethink of that part of the design and shutting down and removing those systems in time for TOS for instance..

This is what I'd go for..

And as a sidenote: the new BSG may be popular with some, but I literally can't watch it. The "shakycam" thing makes me physically sick to my stomach to watch it. So the only way I've been even able to think of how to view it would be to run the show through a program like VirtualDub and then run a stability filter on it focused on the ship/ships that are the center of action, cropping out the rest. Then maybe I can watch it. If the new movie does the same, I'll have to walk out of it for the same reason. And not *everything* has to be sex and violence... I see the direction that BSG went to be the same road that Babylon 5: Crusade was asked to walk down, and JMS shut the show down rather than go there. I *like* not having all that drek in a story.. it means that they have to actually write something, not script:

[i]13:45 [scene]: Dark hallway with female Cylon and human male. Camera pans, no one is around. Female Cylon pushes human male against hallway wall and they start to undress.

14:35 [ad lib talking and kissing]

14:55 - 16:59 [scene pushes R rating]

17:00 fade to commercial.[/i]

Now what is actually accomplished in this sort of scene? You kill three minutes and fifteen seconds of the fourty two or so minutes to tell your story, and you never get that back. To be honest, if I wanted to see that sort of story, there's adult entertainment shops where I can rent that, and they don't ever have to pretend to be set in space.

I watch science fiction because I want to see a science fiction story, and that means that there has to be a story to watch. Guess that puts me into the camp that prefers TOS styling, good story telling, and has at least a nodding respect for its fans... as opposed to the beheading and execution of a good story and show in order to make time in the show for soft porn. And I *hope* that they don't walk down this road..

There were no rear firing photons on the Original 1701 as well as possibly phasers only TMP version has rear firing phasers.There are no photons as well in 1701-A only -B would have that being based off of the Excelsior.I will say this that JJ is doing a better jop than Bermon and Braga did with the TNG movies.First Cotact was the only movie which did well not great but well compared to all TMP movies.Why JJ is a big screen producer where as Bermon and Braga aren't.

Age, did you not see Enterprise when the Defiant broke out of the Tholian compound? she fired rear torps and phasers..

In TOS, the effects budget did not allow for those effects.. however I agree in the TOS series, Enterprise did not have rear firing torps.. but phasers were quite possible (though never shown).. I just take it as Kirk liking to face his opponent instead of hit and run tactics.

[Panzergranate]

Interestingly enough, planets were done better and more realistically on Gerry Anderson's Space 1999 than in the original TOS.

Also the film techniques for ship movements and explosions were developed here and later used for Star Wars. Seeings as Space 1999 (1974) was only a few years after Star Trek TOS ended in 1971, it was 500% better in special effects and the portrayal of space at that time. It also had a more 3D feel to it compared to TOS's 2D feel of space and planets.

OK I know that the budget was higher and it was British, so had two huge advantages over TOS's special effects, but TOS people did the best with what they had available to them at the time.

Perhaps if Gerry Anderson had been in charge of the special effects on TOS then it would have been a lot better, as even the hand laser projected better beams that TOS's hand phasers.

Actually, perhaps they should ask Gerry to do the next ST movie special effects.

Also did anyone out there spot that some of the TNG episodes nicked story lines from SPace 1999??

[Vipre]

In TOS, the effects budget did not allow for those effects.. however I agree in the TOS series, Enterprise did not have rear firing torps.. but phasers were quite possible (though never shown).. I just take it as Kirk liking to face his opponent instead of hit and run tactics.

One shot of rear phasers and one of a torpedo, then replay over and over as needed. I don't buy for a second that they didn't have the money for two shots. The new BSG repeats the same shot of Vipers landing over and over as well for the same reason. The ship didn't have rear phasers or torpedoes because they didn't want it to simple as that. The writers of "In a Mirror Darkly" needed the ship to fire in the rear arc so it did again simple as that. It's one thing to take a ship from one episode of TOS and show things that weren't in TOS, it'd be another to retcon rear arc weapons to the original series E because of IaMD.

As for the movie RA phasers are almost a certainty torpedoes would be pushing it.

[Chris Jones]

One would have to assume that TOS ships in Kirk's time had rear firing weapons. In the original series we never saw such a thing because of effects budgets, etc. IF ST:XI is to be TOS, which unfortunately is the case, then I would want to see weapon arcs such as 'In a Mirror Darkly' had. The Enterprise had them as well, just not shown in the 60s, but to some degree they were seen in Enhanced. The TOS Enterprise should have the arcs shown in the one Ent episode - but the ship itself should not look like JJ has depicted it - no way no how - it should look like Enhanced. Period.

TNG 20

[Panzergranate]

As the torpedoes always fired from either side of the under saucer dome, in TOS, and in the ENT episode the Defiant fires the aft torpedoes from somewhere well forward of the neck, if you look closely, as they pass either sade of it when fired rearwards. I checled and measured the scale models of the Enterprise and the torpedoes would clear the neck if fired from the TOS lower dome position.

Also is the Defiant one of the 12 Constitution Class starships or another class buult on the same hull?? If so, ths would explain hy the Enterprise never fires aft torpedoes in TOS.

As for the aft phaser.... how many times doe you here the disjoined voice report, "Aft Phaser ready!!" everytme the Enterprise went to red alert.

Also the Constellation actually fires from the upper right Phaser bank at the Doomsday Machine, not the normal lower front always depicted with the Enterprise.

Just because they never have cause to fire the aft torpedoes or some other weaponry, it doesn't mean that it isn't supposed to be on the ship. Using the priciple that because it wasn't seen used in TOS the Enterprise didn;t have it, could mean that the ship also has no toilets, as nobdy is seen taking a dump!!

The Enterprse also carries 4 shuttle craft (number stated in "The Omega Glory") with the other four craft being presumably work pods. We only ever see two of the shuttle craft, but assume that the others must also be present.

There are possible way in which continuity can be maintained with TOS by maybe describing the "weird" Enterprise as failed refit experiment that was abandoned by the time TOS came about.

The ship was launched in 2245, the cage in 2252 and TOS was set in 2266, so a lot could have happened to the ship between these periods.

[Vipre]

Lets not go through the whole retcon thing again, there's already a thread out there on the topic where it's all been said already.

To repeat...

One shot of rear phasers and one of a torpedo, then replay over and over as needed. I don't buy for a second that they didn't have the money for two shots.

The TOS ship didn't have rear phasers or torpedoes because they didn't want it to simple as that. The writers of "In a Mirror Darkly" needed the Defiant to fire in the rear arc so it did again simple as that.

"They must have always been there because they were there in that one episode of a completely different series on a different ship." is weak. Not enough cash for two shots in 79 episodes is weaker still.

[Cptn_Pestalence_XC]

OK.. going back to canon..

the NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise was not a "Constitution Class" starship.. It was a "Starship Class" Space Ship as cited in TOS The Cage and by the registration plaque located next to the turbolift door.

the only Enterprise listed as a "Constitution Class" was the NCC-1701-A as seen on the ships blueprints in Scotty's hand.

The NCC-1701 U.S.S. Enterprise after the initial refit for TMP was christened "Enterprise Class" as shown on the Kobiashi Maru test simulator door which used the Enterprise and the base design.

Going by what Gene Roddenberry stated about Trek.. Each ship was designed to fill a specific duty roll.. as such, the "Starship Class" could fill many Duty rolls.. Defiant may have been on the Romulan front lines, thus needing more firepower. Enterprise was designed for deep exploration, thus more labs, shields and fewer weapons.

Both ships are of the same hull design, but different duty rolls..

First of line ship designations did not come about until Enterprise was refit from Starship Class to Enterprise Class.

the NCC-1700 Constitution was not the First of Line ship for the Starship Class.. there are hull registries older than NCC-1700.. there were 12 NCC-17xx ships launched on 5 year missions, the Enterprise was the only one to come home relatively intact.

as such, going back to topic, the Enterprise not showing weapons does not mean she did not have them, however, according to Gene Roddenberry, what is shown on screen is canon, in books it's fan made.

If Kirk did not have the ability to use Rear Arc Torpedos, then most likely the ship was not built with them.. however the phaser banks are Omni Directional turrents.. thus RA phasers is reasonable to assume accurate.

[Panzergranate]

The thing is that the aft Phaser is canon as it is heard reporting as ready in TOS episodes, though it is never seen firing, usually because the plot usually has the Enterprise standing down from red alert.

Remeber that we seem to be assuming that the armament of the Enterprise is as in the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph apparently, which had the torpedoes firing form under the bridge and not from where they fired in TOS episodes, which was from either side of the under saucer dome.
 
From where the torpedoes fire in TOS they could have also fired aft past the neck, which is what the Defiant is seen to do.

I've never been blind enough to see the problem with this.

If you take the Star Fleet Technical Manual's line, the Defiant was an "Achanar" Class warship variant of the Constitution Class, going by the registry number.

Also, taking the registry number into account, the Defiant was several decades younger than the Enterprise, so is more likely not of the same class, or build to a different specification.

[Cptn_Pestalence_XC]

The thing is that the aft Phaser is canon as it is heard reporting as ready in TOS episodes, though it is never seen firing, usually because the plot usually has the Enterprise standing down from red alert.

Remeber that we seem to be assuming that the armament of the Enterprise is as in the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph apparently, which had the torpedoes firing form under the bridge and not from where they fired in TOS episodes, which was from either side of the under saucer dome.
 
From where the torpedoes fire in TOS they could have also fired aft past the neck, which is what the Defiant is seen to do.

I've never been blind enough to see the problem with this.

If you take the Star Fleet Technical Manual's line, the Defiant was an "Achanar" Class warship variant of the Constitution Class, going by the registry number.

Also, taking the registry number into account, the Defiant was several decades younger than the Enterprise, so is more likely not of the same class, or build to a different specification.

The point you are missing is that Gene Roddenberry, the Creator of Trek, stated Franz Joseph's work is NOT canon for Trek, only what is seen on screen. The book did not follow what Gene stated the properties for Federation Tech should be.

On screen, the Torpedos fire only forward, and going by what Gene stated, that means the Torpedo Launchers on the Enterprise only fired in the FA, not the RA... by Gene's definition, Enterprise did not have RA torpedos.. however that does not mean all the Starship Class did not have RA Torpedos...

There were no Name Class ships in TOS, there were only Duty ships.. Achanar and Constitution Class did not exist in Kirk's era.. The first Constitution Class ship is a Refit from the Enterprise Class to incorporate new Trans Warp Drive engines as Scotty stated in ST V and ST VI...

TNG made an error or an adjustment to canon at the Dysonsphere when Scotty ws in the Holodeck and Piccard referred to it as a Constitution Class ship.. however, Gene stated in an interview, confirmed by his wife Majel Barrett before he died, that it was to comemorate the 11 Deep Space Starship Class Ships that were lost, not to change Canon. Basically the Constitution Class designation was technically a footnote that supposedly stuck to the hull design in the Starfleet Academy (to appease RW the fan base)...

Everyone now calls the hull Constitution Class, when in fact the Dedication plaque, "The Cage", and "The Magerie" (sp) clearly showed that the ship was not a "Constitution Class" but a "Starship Class" Space Ship  .. watch an Enhanced DVD of TOS and pause, take a screen shot when the Plaque is visable, section out the plaque in Photoshop or Paintshop, zoom in and read it.. it is right there in bold text letters.

The Movie has not yet broke canon concerning the Enterprise from what is available.. the ship shown is still at least 9 to 11 years before Kirk gets her per canon.. First Captain Robert April, then Captain Christopher Pike, then Captain James T. Kirk...

There is pleanty of timeline there to show the early stage of the Enterprise's life before TOS takes place at the end of Pikes career as Captain and the beginning of Kirk's as Captain.. There is no mention of how many refits the ship underwent before TOS occurred.. and you have to remember, the Movie is suppose to have Old Spock talking to Young Spock at the Starfleet Academy, as such, Spock has not yet been qualified for a command post, nor is he assigned to a ship, and from the movie preview, the Enterprise is not yet built and Robert April has not yet taken command..

Anyhow, there are too many variables to consider before anyone condems the ship.. as as stated earlier in this thread, maybe some design flaws necessitated the ships refits / retrofits to make her into the TOS Enterprise we all love.

[Panzergranate]

That is what I was pointing out.... that folks take the Star Fleet Technical Manual as the spec for the Enterprise.

Also the Defiant isn't the Enterprise but a different ship.... so when folks say the Enterprise diesn't have aft torpedoes, then it doesn't.

The Defiant, however, is a different ship and maybe a different class. It is llost after being sent to investigate the previous loses of other vessels. I would think that Star Fleet would send a warship to investigate such events.

The Enterprrise, being the next nearest ship, is sent o investigate both the Defiant and the other loses.

The ship could be the original ship that Robert April takes command of for a 5 year mission. The ship would need refitting after this and perhaps new technology has come into existance by the time April returns, requiring a refit.

The ship is refitted when Pike completes one of his five year missions as the crew capacity is boosted from 203 to 428.

The TMP Enterprise had standard Warp Drive, though of a slightly improved type. Only the Excelsior is stated to have Trans Warp Drive, as it is the "Great Experiment" which subsiquently fails to deliver.

The assumption that the Enterprise is armed with lasers is because of the suggestion, in the cage episode, that they use one of the ship's lasers to blast a way into the mountain.

The laser could have been simply a point defence weapon and the ship carry phaser banks as main armament. As it appears to be an artillery sized weapon and not the size of the massive Phaser banks expected on the ship, this is most likely.

It is like saying that is a US Navy destroyer takes one of its 20mm. cannons ashore to blast at something point blank, then that is the only weapon type the ship is armed with.

As the Klingons are shown to use missiles (Drnes) in the episode "Errand Of Mercy" and maybe a few other unseen races supposedly out there, Pike's Eneterprise would have needed light laser type weapons to take them out.

The biggest argument in Trekdom is the SS Valiant and how such a Warp Drive vessel could travel to the edge of the Galaxy?? The simple fact is the Galaxy is not map flat but in 3D and no matter where you are in it, simple travelling a short distance up or down, against the gravitaional plane, will take you to the edge of it, just like heading up or down will take you straight out of our solar system.

The SS Valiant would only have to be swept less than 50 lightyears uup or down to reach the edge of the Galaxy.

If the writers are skillful enough they can keep the new model Enterprise in continuity with TOS without too much difficulty.

Hipefully they've learnt from the ENT experience.

 

[Beeblebrox]

Having recently rewatched a load of TOS I do distinctly remember one of the guys, during a red alert, clearly reporting that "midship phasers" were ready, right after reporting forward phasers as ready.  That puts me in mind of the CAI with the standard three phaser banks on the saucer and one 360 degree bank on the engineering section.  Frankly it doesn't make sense to have a starship with no rear-firing weapons. 

Given that the Enterprise was built sometime before 2245 I don't have a problem with minor differences between the XI ship and the TOS ship.  I'm just hoping they don't try to make it "super-duper" and add a wad of anachronistic technology like they did on the Enterprise series.  I will be very interested to see how they manage to make the military grey and powder blue color scheme of the pre-Kirk bridge look visually tantalising on the big screen.

[Beeblebrox]

The Defiant, however, is a different ship and maybe a different class. It is llost after being sent to investigate the previous loses of other vessels. I would think that Star Fleet would send a warship to investigate such events.

This isn't as outlandish idea as it may sound at first.  Even in today's wet Navy it is extremely common for ships of the same class to be outfitted differently from one another.  This can be due to special mission needs or even being behind or ahead of others of the ship class in the schedule rotation for refits.  It can also come about because of construction time tables--i.e. The 42 Type in the Royal Navy was composed of 14 ships constructed in 3 separate batches, each with differing engines, weapons/defense capabilities and even lengths.

[Czar Mohab]

  Even in today's wet Navy it is extremely common for ships of the same class to be outfitted differently from one another.

Just take a peek at the SSGN/SSBN in the US Navy (Ohio class).

Or 688/688i boats (Los Angeles class).

Its about fitting in new technologies and altering the ships for new missions as the battlefront constantly changes.

Personally, a new view of the big E is fine. The construction techniques kinda bug me, but its ok, too. Really. It shouldn't be about canon and non canon. Its about Trek, plain and simple. If/when JJ F*'s up, I'm pretty sure we'll let him have it.

Probably my favorite Sci-Fi movie of all time said it best, "Things change, they always do".

Czar "Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set" Mohab[/color]

[Cptn_Pestalence_XC]

The TMP Enterprise had standard Warp Drive, though of a slightly improved type. Only the Excelsior is stated to have Trans Warp Drive, as it is the "Great Experiment" which subsiquently fails to deliver.

ST III the Excelcior had Transwarp engines, however, they did not fail, they were sabotaged by Scotty.

ST V and ST VI, if you look at the Warp Power console, you clearly see Trans Warp on the screen, the blue prints if you can magnify and clean up also show Trans Warp..

Trans Warp and the Bridge layout are the only 2 main objects of Refit.. that and rapid fire torpedo tubes (not as rapid as Excelcior's though).. those are the refits from Enterprise Class to Constitution Class.




Beeblebrox

That is what we are both saying... the ships were built for their duty cycle, not for different classes..

all hulls like the Enterprise TOS version is "Starship Class", but their duties may have been very different.. Defiant for the Romulan War, Enterprise for Exploration, Yorktown for First Contact, Lexington for Emergency Response, etc...

they were all Starship Class, but their "Normal" duties may have been quite different, requiring different refits of the hull..

Enterprise with More labs and shielding, thus sacrifacing extra weapons for space for labs and shield regen.

Lexington and Yorktown with more luxury in the quarters, more shielding, simple weapon compliment to accomodate refugees / ambassadors / delegations / meetings, etc..

Defiant with thicker hull, more weapons, fewer labs, sacrificing extra shielding for power for the weapons, a decent war machine..

so i think we are all saying the same thing, just in different ways..

Anyhow, I for one am going to see this movie and reserve bashing it until after it's premier (or trailers) that show a break in canon..

As for the ship itself, it is hard to be critical on it given that the ship is several years away from "The Cage".. anything in that time span could happen..

however, here are some Startrek.com out takes on the captains..

Reference TAS (The Animated Series)

Robert T. April
Played by James Doohan (voice)
Episode: ANI 22023 - The Counter-Clock Incident - 2245


A rugged, heroic-looking human male born in the year 2195, Captain Robert April was the first commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 when it was launched in 2245 for its initial five-year mission. He was succeeded by Captain Christopher Pike.
On stardate 6770.3 (2270), April was a senior Starfleet commodore on his way to the Babel planetoid where his formal retirement ceremonies were to be held, per Starfleet regulations mandating that human officers retire at the age of 75. Because of their already advanced ages, Commodore April and his wife Sarah weren't debilitated by the reversed time-flow of the parallel antimatter universe in which the Enterprise became temporarily trapped during the voyage to Babel; instead, they were returned to the prime of their lives. The heroic manner in which the Aprils took command of the starship to get the vessel safely home after all other personnel aboard had grown too young to handle the controls motivated Starfleet to review its mandatory retirement rules, and to keep Commodore April on as the Federation's ambassador-at-large. Because neither Robert nor Sarah April harbored any regrets over how they had spent their lives, they opted to use the Enterprise's transporter to return them to their normal ages following their return from the antimatter universe.


Reference TOS "The Cage", "The Menagerie"

Captain Christopher Pike
Played by Jeffrey Hunter
Episode: TOS 016 - The Menagerie, Part I- 2266


Best known as commanding officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701, just prior to James Kirk, Pike counted the top-secret first contact with the natives of Talos IV amid his long Starfleet career. Later in life, as a fleet captain aboard the training ship U.S.S. Republic, Pike suffered massive radiation damage after saving several cadets when a baffle plate ruptured in the ship's reactor. Thanks to the unorthodox methods of his former science officer, Spock, in 2266, Pike was returned to Talos IV to live out his life without the debilitating lifestyle he had endured, even with a self-propelled, life-support wheelchair.


Reference TOS the series

James Tiberious Kirk

James T. Kirk
Played by William Shatner
Episode: TOS 002 - Where No Man Has Gone Before


Starfleet Career Summary

2250 — As a first-year Academy student with ensign rank, assigned to U.S.S. Republic NCC-1371 (another Starship Class hull)

2254 — Upon graduation, promoted to lieutenant and posted to U.S.S. Farragut under Capt. Garrovick

2264 — Promoted to captain, in command of U.S.S. Enterprise for five-year mission

2266 — Exonerated in wrongful death charge of Ben Finney, first captain ever to stand trial

2269 — Returned from five-year mission; promoted to admiral in charge of fleet operations at Earth


OK so we have a long time before the Enterprise from movie XI to TOS to change the way she looks..

she was launched under Captain Robert April in 2245 and then Captain Kirk got her in 2264 That is 19 Years for refits and changes.. that is a long time...  So I won't be surprised if the Movie Enterprise looks different from the TOS Enterprise.

Hope this helps

[atheorhaven]

Czar "Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set" Mohab

Raised lettering... welded in place. 

[Age]

I don't remember that episode Pestalence but I could of seen it and I don't own all 3 seasons of ToS only TMP on VHS.I still don't have dvd player yet.This might help out Enterprise StarShip Class look at the Depiction.

[Vipre]

I've always seen the lack of rear arc firing in TOS as part of the E's character. Here was this powerful beauty but she wasn't some super-ship, she had a weak spot. Then comes the refit in TMP and that weakness is fixed and it feels like the character has grown, as if the ship gained experience as well during that five year mission and learned how important covering her pretty little rear was.

The reboot for Trek has pretty much already occurred. If you start with ST: Enterprise and then go straight to ST: XI then go hopefully into a spinoff series from the movie and just look at all three as separate entities from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. Those four comprise "Trek 1.0", Enterprise and XI make up "Trek 2.0". Just ignore the Riker cameo in the last episode of ENT and it should work pretty well as it allows everyone to free themselves of the inconsistencies with ENT and previous shows.

IaMD's Defiant would be from "Trek 2.0" canon and not "1.0" and then all the RA issues vanish.

[Beeblebrox]

"Now if there was a logical explination of why the name's on the hull before the work is done, I'll be set"

How else would the Irish builders know which starship to install the screen doors on?

[Panzergranate]

"Dropping out of Warp Captain and switching to Paddy Power!!"

[Beeblebrox]

"Dropping out of Warp Captain and switching to Paddy Power!!"

"Cap'n, the Gui--<hic>...the Guin--<hic>...the Guiness cryssssssals will never take the load!"