Topic: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser

[Tremok]

 Saw this ship tonight on Enterprise. Tough, mean looking ship. We even saw her in action! Nice treat.

The facts:

*The D5 is capable of warp 6
*The D5 has shields and multiple disruptors
*The D5 has greater combat capability than the NX-01
*The D5 was mentioned on DS9, but we never saw a picture of her.
*The D5, if I recall correctly, was made buy everyones favorite, John Eaves.


I must say, all in all, I like tonights episode. Some great combat scenes.

EDIT: Anyone else catch the Duras easter egg? Nice    

[ChamadaIV]

What's sad is that the D5's disruptors couldn't even disable Enterprise in the first few shots. Sometimes I think the writers should play SFC 1 or 2 for a bit and see just how long a Fed ship can last against a Klingon battlecrusier without its shields up.

They are treating polarized hull plating like its a viable alternative to shields when it shouldn't be. I'm sorry, Archer and Co. should've died tonight before any Klingon tribunal took place.    

[Tremok]

SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.    

I learned never to underestimate Romulan engineering. How you guys create artificial sigularities that toys with the theories of quantum physics is beyond me.

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise. Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  

[Tremok]

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:


But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

 



Ok, ok. I can understand the intention that the K'Tingas should've looked more primative, but that's merely an artistic impression of visual appearance. A purely cosmetic issue as far as post-production is concerned. The real beef of the topic is the technical aspect of the D5's weaponry. I no longer have any of my old source materials. If I did, I'd have better insight to how effective Klingon disruptors should be against exposed hull, even in an earlier era (you simply scale down the power output levels to a reasonable point). But even those books couldn't tell me squat about "polarized hull plating."

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 

[Tremok]

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

[Tremok]

 Remember it is said that "He would be conisder a hero of the Empire if he killed those refugees", I doubt bringing them back alive was a concern for Duras.

As for how they got Archer, I don't know. Best I can think of is that Duras beamed him off while the NX was running away.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

[Maxillius]

Quote:

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.      

and make that a FF with 2 phaser 3's and one A rack with slow drones

[Tremok]

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

For your first point, I had assumed you were sure about the K'tinga being a DD. I wasn't aware if your unitentional mistake.

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Acknowledged, your example was good and it wasn't my place judge it "flawed" like I did. My apologies.

Quote:
Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.  

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:

 If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic.

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Quote:
This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.

2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

Quote:
As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

Quote:
It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...



   

[FPF_TraceyG]

Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...

[Tremok]

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 The actual designations of ship types really doesn't mean all that much. Everything the Klingons have is a battlecruiser. Also, Starfleet has a precedent of naming its largest, most powerful vessels "explorers". The Excelsior, Galaxy, and Sovereign are all "expkorer" type vessels.  




No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Because they haven't thought of Enterprise or poloraized hull plating when they where making previous Trek shows.    Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Evolution of weapons.    Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? The Defiant had ablative armor which could be blasted away percent by percent. Perhaps the NX uses a more primitve form of that armor, or simply could be that weapon hits drain the energy reserves, and once drain the polarizing goes away, leaving the ship vurnable.  That's the flawed logic IMO.


2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

 Huh, yes, polarized hull plating saved the ship. Good conclusion.  


Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

 The Raptor overall is probably the best ship in the game, but on a un-modded server, I generally rather have a Warbird. I always have been a follower of the Battleship/Tank philosophy, and the Warbird does the Battleship/Tank better than the Raptor.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...


 Killing him would of an act of honor and respect in the Klingon culture.    

[Jwest]

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Simply put, the same reason there's no mention of wood hulls and rigging in todays navy. They're Obsolete by today's standards. But although wooden hulls and rigging are weaker than todays ships, there was a period when the most powerful wooden ships could be threat to the early ironclads. By the same token, just because polarized hull plating is weaker and/or less energy efficient than shields doesn't mean it's not a useful defense against an early disruptor, capable of protecting the ship against a few shots.

Remember, the half-power disruptors of SFC *fighter* is probably more powerful than the big guns of this battlecruiser.

Mind you - there are a lot of problems with this episode, I just can't say the fact that NX-01 can survive the first shots is one of them.

JW  

[Tremok]

Quote:
Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...  

 The D5 in the show is much better anyway. Besides, I wouldn't want every new ship to come from an older Trek game. I like seeing completely new ships.  

Also, speaking on the subject of game ship designs, who designed the SFC1&2 Romulan ships and the SFC3 Romulan ships? I must say, I would be discourage  to have anyone that designed/approved SFC3 Romulan ships  make ships for the Romulans on TV (shiver).    

[FPF_TraceyG]

New ship designs are good, yes. It does )for me anyway) become a bit disconverting to have all these different 'versions' of a Trek Universe though, ones where a D5 is a light cruiser and now one where its a Battlecruiser in the 22nd century.
I can see the point about inconsistency in a timeline where technology that exists before a point in time doesnt exists after it. Of course, its Star Trek, so perhaps this explainable, but its not something that TNG ever had to deal with. Gene Rodenberryvery cleverly placed TNG, what was it, 70, 80 100 years after the Original Series? Which gave a lot of breathing space for new technology and gave the script writers the room they needed to be creative.
Enterprise is now set in a historical context, and doesnt (or shouldnt) have that luxury.

[Tremok]

 I don't think the SFC D5 was ever canon.    

[FPF_TraceyG]

The D5 wasnt... no, you are correct.
However, the term D7 was never canon either, but is treated as such.
The question then of what is canon and what isnt is, I'm sure, an arguable question and strictly speaking, whatever appears officially in the TV series or movies is canon (even with all of its inconsistencies). A certain degree of fan-based non-canon material has worked its way into what is now canon, but even still, I wasnt actually saying calling the Enterprise D5 an inconsistency. However, for me personally, I've come to think of a D5 as the Light Cruiser created by ADB, and there is a wealth of non-canon material which the fan base has gone to great lengths to ensure not only is it consistent with canon material but also with itself as well. This adds much more depth, realism, believability and cohesion to the entire Star Trek Universe and I for one welcome it. It would be nice if Paramount acknowledged the efforts of its fan base and went along with that as well, instead of creating not just inconsistencies with non-canon material, which is neither here nor there, really, but inconsistencies with its own material.

[Apocolypse]

  Thinking that this would actually be a worthwhile topic, i read it. All i have to say is blah blah blah blah blah. A Klingon D5 should NOT be able to disable nor destroy  Enterprise with a few shots. Why you might ask? Simply the same reason that the Excelsior is in SFC3. Ships get refitted, they arent doomed to their original design, the ship that is the D5 in Enterprise is NOT the same ship that is in SFC. Thought that would be apparant, guess not.  

[Maxillius]

The K'tinga in SFC3 is a CL, a heavy DD at least, but in SFC1,2 and OP it is a full-grown Battlecruiser.  So, by such logic, considering the Klingons use their hulls a LOT longer than anyone else, the brand-new D5 battlecruiser in Enterprise would very likely be a CL or more approprately, CW, by the time of the SFC series.

I'm curious as to why the K'tinga in SFC3 is a D8 in the description screen... perhaps because there was no D8 before?  Anyhow, that D5 looked more like an F5 to me (with a few differences), and they possibly just switched designations on later refits.

[sjvessey]

Oh noooo... sorry but it just makes me laugh... all this talk of weapons and their effectiveness against bare hulls.  You know, a late 20th century hydrogen bomb containing a few kilos of the relevant matter (various hydrogen compounds, some tritium and a plutonium initiator) creates a 50 megaton explosion that utterly destroys anything within a few miles of the epicentre of the explosion.  A nuclear-tipped missile detonating against the bare hull of a starship would literally vaporise it instantaneously.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but 'photon torpedoes' are supposed to contain antimatter.  Your typical everyday fusion explosion converts 4 percent of the available matter to energy, whereas with antimatter the efficiency is 100 percent.  In simple terms this means that an antimatter explosion is approximately 25 times more powerful.

So how come when photon torpedoes detonate you get an explosion that looks about the same intensity as a 2000lb JDAM bomb full of C4 going off, instead of a gigaton blast wave that destroys everything within 100 miles?

Utterly ridiculous.



 

[Alidar Jarok]

Anybody have a screenshot of the ship (I missed the episode   )

The K't'inga is a CL

It goes:

B'rel (FF)
K'vort (DD)
K't'inga (CL)
Fehk'lrh (CA)
Vor'cha (BCH)
Negh'var (DN)

The K't'inga was a CA (or, more specifically, the D6 or 7 was a CA the D7W K't'inga class was more advanced)
Now it is a CL (A complete drop in class)

The D-5 is probably the same class as the D7W
It was dropped to a CL

The reason a D5 isn't in SFC3 is because the K'Vort is much more manuverable (something deperatly needed for a DD)

[Tremok]

Quote:
The K'tinga in SFC3 is a CL, a heavy DD at least, but in SFC1,2 and OP it is a full-grown Battlecruiser.  So, by such logic, considering the Klingons use their hulls a LOT longer than anyone else, the brand-new D5 battlecruiser in Enterprise would very likely be a CL or more approprately, CW, by the time of the SFC series.

I'm curious as to why the K'tinga in SFC3 is a D8 in the description screen... perhaps because there was no D8 before?  Anyhow, that D5 looked more like an F5 to me (with a few differences), and they possibly just switched designations on later refits.  

 In Enterprise the K'tinga is suppose to be a brand new ship, while the the D5 is old and worn out.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Images of D5

[JOLLYROGER]

I usually don't post on this forum, but I must answer to this RE:

It's called future technology. Technology this strong because it SCIFI.

   

[Captain KoraH]

I just have to say how rediculous it is for anyone to gauge Trek episodes off of a game. The two are light years appart from each other. To the writers of Enterprise, SFB, SFC and this little forum don't matter, heck they don't even exist. The line of reason goes the OTHER way folks. The game is based on the SHOW, not the other way around. Any analogy between this game and the latest episode of Trek are totally coincidental. In canon Trek, there is no such thing as a "Phaser 3" on a starship, or a "Gattling Phaser" or even "Hydrans".

The D-5 was mentioned in DS9, but I don't think it's the same D-5 class from Enterprise.


Easter Eggs in last night's episode:

Weapons Officer Duras. Obviously an ancestor of the warrior Duras, and the Duras sisters, Lursa and Be'tor. Will reprise his role in season finale 'The Expanse' in late May.

Klingon arbitrator Kolos played by J.G. Hertzler (best Klingon actor of all time, see poll below) He has played the Hirogen Hunter in Voyager, Vulcan Captain in TNG "Emissary: Part 1" and  "Laas" in DS9 "Chimera" as well as playing Martok in 17 episodes of Trek. An incredible actor, he has also been on "Everybody Loves Raymond", "Touched by an Angel", "Roswell", "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch", "Charmed", "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman", "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman", "Diagnosis Murder", "Adventures of Brisco County Jr.", "Highlander" and "Quantum Leap". There is none higher...

D-5 ship named  "BortaS" (same as Gowron's flagship. Word "BortaS" in Klingon means "revenge" Worf served as weapons officer aboard the BortaS for a time)

Entire courtroom set, complete with judges gavel, Klingon wall banner and lifetime sentence to Rura Penthe. Straight out of Star Trek VI. Very poor work, lack of imagination.

John Vickery, who plays Orak the Klingon prosecutor, appeared as a Cardassian Gul in DS9

Raw Targ served nightly in Klingon prison... I thought that was a delicasy?

Klingon Blood Wine... I've tasted it, have you? Great stuff!


This episode wins my personal award for...

WORST PLOT HOLE IN HISTORY

It's not how Archer was apprehended...

It's not why Starfleet has no say in what happens to him, or why nobody even contacts them...

It's not that the Klingons pay more attention to Archer's career than Starfleet...

It's not Those things... Ok, yes it is.


J.G. Hertzler = Greatest Klingon actor ever to grace the screen.... here's proof:

Poll at StarTRek.com:

Who is your favorite Klingon actor?

Kor - 4.60% (41)    <-------------John Colicos, RIP.... My favorite until Martok.
Koloth - 1.91% (17)
Kang - 5.16% (46)
Mara - 2.13% (19) <------------------WTF?
Kahless - 6.73% (60) <--------------------------Little kids vote here.
Kruge - 2.13% (19) <-----------Should have been more.
Gorkon - 2.80% (25)
Chang - 8.86% (79) <-------------Should have been less.
Korris - 0.34% (3)
Kurn - 2.13% (19) <--------- Great Klingon, not enough screen time. Sorry Kurn...
K'mpec - 1.57% (14)
Duras - 1.46% (13)
Gowron - 9.75% (87)  <--------Fools and traitors of the Empire vote here.
Lursa & B'Etor - 9.42% (84)
Martok - 38.34% (342)   <--------------------- J.G Hertzler. The numbers speak for themselves.
Klaang - 2.69% (24)


 

[Scipio_66]

Quote:
Originally posted by Korah

Poll at StarTRek.com:

Who is your favorite Klingon actor?

Kahless - 6.73% (60) <--------------------------Little kids vote here.
 

Who are they voting for here?  The *real* Kahless from ST:TOS  (With the dark complexion and the smooth forehead)?  Or the Kahless clone with the turtle-head from STTNG?

<pointless banter>  Oh yes, and this thread proves how we were "saved" by the move from SFC2 to SFC3;  since no one will ever argue about ST canon but everyone argues about SFB.  <snicker>

-S'Cipio  

[Lieutenant_Q]

Quote:


Kruge - 2.13% (19) <-----------Should have been more.

 

I agree with ya here, Christopher Lloyd Defined the new Klingons!  

[Apocolypse]

  Yeah, i third that one.  

[Cozbo]

Didn't see the show but  posting to your thoughts on why a D5 didn't blow up the NX-01

Well, I guess the reason the NX-01 was able to survive is the same reason I win many battles against superior ships and fleets in D3: Captain Error.

 When I play a player that is 1)Inexperienced or 2)Unfamiliar with the capablities of his ship or 3)Over confident or 4) Using the wrong tactics or 5) Timid or 6) Too aggressive or 7)A combination of all,  it doesn't matter if they have 2 class sizes better than me they will lose.

Incompentence comes in all sizes and shapes.

 

[Tulmahk]

Why didn't the D5's shots destroy Enterprise right away?

#1:  Their AV was too high!
#2:  Mayweather can Evasive Maneuvers like nobody's business!  

[Maxillius]

BortaS wasn't trying to destroy Enterprise, she was trying to disable her enough to board and take the refugees, possibly even scout/take the ship.

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Why didn't the D5's shots destroy Enterprise right away?

#1:  Their AV was too high!
#2:  Mayweather can Evasive Maneuvers like nobody's business!  

Heh, but #2 is invalid as it was clearly shown that Enterprise was hit several times. So much for EM tactics...

I guess those disruptors were half the power of the weakest disruptors available in SFC. Or it was distance factor (the power from the shots dissapated as they traveled towards NX-01), OR it was the writers who cared more about the story and less about the technology and decided it was prudent to show that the ship survived the incident so that they could rescue Archer and still have a ship to carry the show on with (it's no good to destroy your starring ship and cast...hey wait, didn't NBC destroy the seaQuest a couple of times and still had a show going?).

Heh, that's what they should do: destroy the ship. The NCC-1701 went down in ST III, the 1701-C was blown away by Romulans, 1701-D went down after the Nexus incident, and the 1701-E got beat up real bad in ST Nemesis. It's a tradition of mayhem and destruction on the BigE. But just because you kill the ship doesn't mean the crew has to die either. At least this will give Paramount an excuse to give Archer a better ship that could withstand shots from a D5 more believably.  

[La'ra]

Quote:
 In Enterprise the K'tinga is suppose to be a brand new ship, while the the D5 is old and worn out.    

Assuming that the battlecruiser in 'Unexpected' was a K'tinga class is rather silly.  We've seen that the Klingons tend to stick with the same hull designs, so it's likely an older, smaller, ancestor of the D7's and the K'tinga-class.  

[Tremok]

Assuming that the battlecruiser in 'Unexpected' was a K'tinga class is rather silly.  We've seen that the Klingons tend to stick with the same hull designs, so it's likely an older, smaller, ancestor of the D7's and the K'tinga-class.  

 Nitpicky aren't you? Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

I'll try to remember to call it the D-7 type for now on.    

[La'ra]

 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.  

[Tulmahk]

Quote:


Heh, but #2 is invalid as it was clearly shown that Enterprise was hit several times. So much for EM tactics...

As you know, EM doesn't only make the ship harder to hit, but reduces the damage done when it does get hit (just like AV).  

[Tremok]

Quote:
 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.    

 Well, rest assured, it was a simple typograpical error. You see, in my mind, the K'tinga is the generic name for all type D7s, and sometimes my hands just type out that name (K'tinga) without actually thinking what D7 type variant it is.      

[jimmi7769]

Quote:

Quote:
 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.    

 Well, rest assured, it was a simple typograpical error. You see, in my mind, the K'tinga is the generic name for all type D7s, and sometimes my hands just type out that name (K'tinga) without actually thinking what D7 type variant it is.      

D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?

RE: Enterprise class

That's debatable

[wanderer]

Quote:

Quote:
D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?

The only place where I have ever seen the 'Klolode Class' is from a non-canon source, "Starship Design" by Starstation Aurora, the same publication that brought us the K'Teremny. There is a picture of a Klingon cruiser from TOS that is labeled a "Klolode Class Battlecruiser". The K'teremny is described as "a further extension of the Raxor/Klolode/K'Tinga warship design."  

[Tremok]

Quote:


D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.  

[Karnak]

I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

[Alidar Jarok]

A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.

[Karnak]

Quote:
A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  

There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.

[jimmi7769]

Quote:

Quote:


D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.  

Actually where I got it from was the FASA Star Trek The Role Playing game.  Klingon Ship Recognition manual.
And not SFB.

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:


6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

That's because they did too good of a job.  Self-destruct was disabled (so no victory like ST3).  It did a better job than the BoP in ST6 did.

Quote:
7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

Some survived and were captured.  Its not my fault that Klingons don't do anything "high-risk"

Here are some

Star Trek 3:
Klingon Bird of Prey captured without a fight

Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.
Chancellor Dead
Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked destroyed

Star Trek 7:
D-12 destroyed due to faulty design

Day of the Dove:
D-7 destroyed because it was emmiting radiation and was a "Hazard"

[Karnak]

Quote:
Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.

??????

I would hardly call a D7W the flagship of the Empire. The ship was also not destoryed.

[Tremok]

I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

 Forget to mention that the Enterprise was stolen, way undermanned, and not at full combat readiness did you?  

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

 End result: BoP dead, the Enterprise and Excelsior find and dandy. And while the Excelsior took a few good hits, it wasn't all that damaged.  

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

 Only because the BoP used Romulan like subterfuge to gets Enterprise's shield frequency. And they still died. And how many torpedoes did it take to kill the BoP? Just one. The Enterprise took several photons and disruptor hits. And then it wouldn't have gone down if not for the lucky last shot plasma manifold hit.  

 

And how convient of you not to mention all the times the Enterprise has whacked Klingon ships upsided they head. DS9 really whooped that Klingon fleet didn't it? Also I must said I was impressed by the way the Defiant went threw Klingon ships like a hot knife through warm butter. Seems to me the Klingons didn't fare to well with the conflict against the Federation in the 2370s.  

4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

 Whatever. Show me a source that the Klingons did the best against the Jem'hadar. We DO know they did take the most casualties of the war.

And yes, they way the Klingons engineered their vessels made them immune to the Breen weapon, and they had hold the line until the Federation and Romulans had a time to refit. And Gowron handle it so poorly they have to overthrow him and get a new Chancellor.

Are you trying to make a point that Klingon engineering is superior to the Federations or Klingons or somesuch?

Edit: Also forgot about that Klingon fleet that went to Breen space and never returned.  

5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

 That is a bit of an arrogant statemnent. We don't know if it was easy or not, since we don't know how they did it.

And you forgot to mention the part where the Enterprise DEFEATED the D5. It is true that the NX is not a match for Klingon ships of this period, and wasn't the equal of the D5. The Enterprise crew used their heads and what they had available to them to beat the D5 fair and square. They could of destroyed her if they wished, it was said so in the episode.    

Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

 Lets see. As you mentioned above,

1. Klingon ships beats up a stolen, undermanned and underpowered Enterprise.

2. Klingons use fire while cloak technology to attack Enterprise and the Excelsior. Klingon looses anyway.

2. Klingon uses subterfuge to find Enterprises shield frequency. Klingons loose anyway. (the Klingons all died, the Enterprise crew didn't).

See, its your very own Klingons that are using the cowardly subterfuge and cloak and daggar!  

6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

 Not because the three DNs bested the Scimitar in combat. Not all all, the Scimitar still had 70 percent shield strength when all the ships where disabled. The Scimitar died because Shinzon was stupid. Lets see,

1. He pulls up right in front of the Enterprise.

2. He keeps his cloak off.

3. He is so kind to even keep his shields off.

4. When the Enterprises starts comming to him, does he open fire with his weapons trying to knock out the impluse engines? No. Does he try to simply blow the ship to pieces when he realized he doesn't have time to disable her? No. Did he even try to lock on a tractor beam to keep the Enterprise away? No. He just stood there and let the Enterprise ram him.

And the two Valdores weren't killed. Severely damaged, yes, like the Enterprise was, but not killed.  

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

 That was the Tal Shiar acting on their own. And it was a trap in the first place. Besides, the Dominion was beating around everyone at that time.

Nice of you  not to mention the Federation/Klingons would of lost the war if not for the Romulan entrance.  

9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

 The BoP probably wasn't as good of a ship as the Constitution. Even so, Kirk respected the Romulans and their ship.  
 

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  

There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.

 Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?  

[Alidar Jarok]

The Qo'onos one wasn't the flag ship?

You might be right about it not being destroyed.

But it was the only ship to loose artificial gravity

[Karnak]

Quote:
Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.  How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  Colonel Luvok changeling and the 4 changelings on Earth got away.;)  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.

[Tremok]

Quote:
Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.

 Good. I don't like the Tal Shiar.  

 How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

 The Dominion was manipulating everyone. Cardassians, Federation, Romulans, Klingon.

I wouldn't say "No wonder they Cardassians where so easily manipulated" when they where manipulating everyone.  

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  

 Thanks to the help of the Federation.  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.  

 Considering it was the Enterprise that defeated Chang. Once that torpedo struck home it was finished. All the Excelsior did was maybe take a few extra hits for the Enterprise and quicken the destruction of the BoP.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Target that explosion and fire  

[Tremok]

  Tremok enjoys the pretty explosion    

[La'ra]

Balance of Terror:  Constitutions-class vessel destroys the pride of the Romulan fleet in a running fight.  Final tally: One Warbird gone, one fatality aboard Enterprise.

The Deadly Years:  An estimated ten Romulan warships don't manage to destroy the same Constitution-class starship despite her being commanded by an officer highly inexperienced in space combat.

The Enterprise Incident:  Three Romulan vessels of a design considered roughly equal to a Constituion-class are outmanuevered by a single Federation ship which steals a cloaking device and gets away clean.

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

I can probably find more, but it makes little difference.  Romulans have never been portrayed as an enemy as difficult to conquer as the Klingons, and judging from their reliance on skullduggery and ridiculous plots they're too weak to sustain a conflict with either the Federation or the Klingon Empire.

The Klingons, by contrast, did rather well against the Federation despite a few 'featured on Deep Space Nine' losses.  Afterward, they still had plenty left to hold the line and were pivotal in several Alliance victories versus the Gamma Quadrant invaders.  Also, in several 'alternate history' episodes we've seen, the Romulan Empire was subjugated by the Klingons....

In any case, it's kind of a silly thing to be arguing about.  Go read some of my fanfic if you like Klingons and some of Jaeih's or Sethans if you like Rommies.  Most of the people on that board are very good at capturing the flavor of their favorite Empires.  

[Tremok]

 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).  Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.

I could comment that I wouldn't confuse the failures of Romulan subterfuge plans (most of the Romulan failures you mentioned) to mean they are weak. Those plans had the potential to bringe great rewards for the Empire, but didn't work out. Well, what did the loose in trying? But when Romulans DO fight, I believe they have shown themselves as formidable.

 But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.  

I personally think that  all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, they just different styles, advantages, and disadvantages.

   

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

Quote:
Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

Quote:
Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.  Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.  Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

Quote:
I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

[Alidar Jarok]

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Another international politics thing.

The Romulans were willing to sacrifice something they wanted for personal gains when they saw it was not worth a war against their allies

Anyway

The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

The Klingons have a weaker economy

The Cardassians have inferior ships and, IMO, a weaker economy (at least after the war)

The Dominion is superior to the Federation in every way.

The Ferengi have ships on par with the Federation and Romulans (or, at least they did at the begining of the series.  The Suliban remind me alot of the Ferengi)
Their economy seems pretty good.
They don't seem as interested in international politics

The Breen are a mystery (very similar to the Gorn of TOS)
Their only advantage appeared to be the energy weapon.
They lack quality shields and have weapons similar to Klingons
Their economy and planet as a whole is unkown

I won't bother mentioning the Borg or 8472

The Kazon are technologically and economically inferior, but they stole some big ships

The Hirogen have made ships that are around the level of the Federation, but they haven't developed infistucture or economy.

[La'ra]

Quote:
You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

You wish that were a feasible argument.  The size of those ships shifted even between shots, and we never saw a similarly sized Bird of Prey before or since.  Therefore, I doubt seriously there are Negh'Var sized BoPs.  You can subscribe to the notion if you wish, naturally.

Quote:
Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Yes.  They didn't want a war, and thus didn't want a fight.  However, if they'd fought, and won, the Klingon Empire just became their ally.  Seems to me that they aren't too happy with the prospect of a war with the Federation even with an ally who can directly compete with the Federation.

Quote:
They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Yes.  They knew they couldn't support a invasion of Vulcan using conventional methods, and abandoned the idea, destroying any evidence that might lead the military action by the Federation.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Quote:
The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

We haven't seen enough of the Romulan military to judge, unless, as I tend to, use this absence itself as data for analysis.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

The Romulans have the resource and Technology of the Federation.  They have a deeply loyal people who know "that they might have to sacrifice their lives for the Empire (Balance of Terror: The commander self-destructed his ship, Defector: A Romulan defector is almost a contradiction in terms", Unification: Their own people were killed to preserve evidence)

What the Romulans don't have is territory (I tend to think they have the smallest empire of the 3.  An empire consisting entirely of Romulans, and now Remens).  They are isolationist, so they haven't expanded as fast as the Klingons and Federation.

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them/

They are very similar.

Goverment, people, intelligence

But I think that the Cardassians were falling behing technologically compared to "The big 3"

Dukat (or mabye Damar) said so himself, when he said that (or said he "thought that", depending on who said it) the Dominion would make Cardassia strong again.

I think Romulan ships were superior - although we only see Romulan DNs.  Cardassia uses CAs, BCHs (maybe, unless the Keldon is another CA), and DDs

[Tremok]

Quote:
 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

 I like all of the Big3, but Romulans are may favorite, and I will defend them, when they are challenged, as I am sure you would when someone challenges the Klingons.  

Quote:
Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

 Icing on cake I say. Well, guess we Romulans can't always have our cake and eat it two.  

Quote:
Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.

 I don't know about that. We saw some rather huge Romulan Warbird fleets in the Dominion War. But yes, I doubt the Romulans had the fleets nessecary for dealing with both the Federation and Klingons. Contesting one or the other, perhaps, but not both.  Again, like Picard said, the only thing that contain the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.  

Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...

  I believe its called effeciency. [/color

 and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.

 Well, the transports where already well inside Federation space, I don't see any reasonable act of getting them home safetly. I am sure they would of if the could.  

 Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

  Oh yes, Romulans love to intimidate. And I will agree with you that the D'deridex looks like it was design to intimidate. I don't see this as a sign that the ship is weak or anything though.  

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

 Well, one got its wing blown off. We don't know what happened after that. Notice how the wing collided with the Enterprise but stayed intact? Made of some strong stuff.

I for myself see the Romulans as highly trained and professional warriors that rely on strategy and and relatively small fleets of highly advance and powerful ships to get the job down.


With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

 We have absolutely no idea how many resources the Romulans have so I can't comment.  

Quote:
I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

 Ah, I view the Romulans as the professionals, the Cardassians are just drunken thugs. The Romulans also have the mnhei'sahe honor code, while the Cardassians don't.  They're stupid too.

When you see Romulans you see a people that are intensely loyal, highly trained, professional, and extremely dedicated to a cause. You seem that they love there Empire and there culture,  and its there dream to see the it (the Empire and culture) advance and progress, and they devote there lifes to that end.

Cardassians are just slobbering fools. Bullies who just abuse and use peple that are weaker than them. They don't appear to be highly trained or discipline. The only things they love and devote their lifes to is the betterment of themselves.

And what could the Cardassains have that would challenge the Romulans? There Galors and Keldons are nothing compared to the D'deridex.

I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.  

[Karnak]

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

[ChamadaIV]

Yeesh. I leave this thread for a few days and look what happens. It goes from a debate over the D5 to a debate over the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant. I guess I'll wait for the final word on Ex Astris Scientia about the D5 then...

Quote:

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

You have to recall the importance of the Enterprise-C and its role at the battle of Khitomer. The Rommies instigated that conflict when they attacked the Klingon colony. The alternate reality started because the Klinks thought the Ent-C left them to die when the ship was pulled into the future by the temporal anomoly. This must've been considered an outrage, a total lack of honor, and sheer heartlessness, thus they declared war on the Feds. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went to war with the Roms as well. How they take on two major powers is beyond me. But you know what happens when you piss off a Klingon warrior, right? Ok, now think what happens when you piss off an entire Empire of warriors. Get the picture?

Of course, like the "Mighty Hood," Garrett and the BigE-C ultimately went off into Death's maw and valiantly fought it off until the end.

"We will never forget...the sacrifice of the brave heroes on the Enterprise-C, the defenders of Khitomer."  

Heh, that ought to be my new sig now...      

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

 IIf you where writing the canon, I am sure they would Mr. Karnak    

[Whiplash]

Does anyone know where I can see some photos and/or schematics of the D5 online?

W.

[Whiplash]

The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

The Dominion, clearly a capable military force that conquered their entire quadrant, also realize that little flying weapons platforms make excellent mainstays of a battle fleet.

W.
 

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

You know what's odd is that you may actually be right about that as far as SFC3 is concerned. Nobody may believe this, but my first time through the Klingon campaign, I went through it all with the B'Rel they started me in. I kid you not. I was amazed how easy it was to exploit the AI in the final battle against the Negh'var. Because I was so maneuverable and the bigger ship wasn't, I simply EM its first few shots (I still took some damage, some minor internals easily repaired) and then I stuck like glue to its port side keeping my guns facing the enemy while he kept turning trying to face me, but couldn't. In essence, the Negh'var was unable to attack me and I kept beating on his port side until it was over. The most pathetic final fight in gaming history (which I'm sure Taldren had hoped it would be something more).

Almost reminded me of the last battle in Final Fantasy VI :

Kefka casts Fallen One

My party HPs all reduced to 1.

I respond with :

Terra casts Quick on herself, then MagicX (gem box), Ultima deals 9999 damage, another Ultima.

Edgar casts Quick, then Illumina sword 9999 damage, then once more.

Sabin does his Bum Rush for mass damage.

Then Cyan steps in with two-sword combo (Murasame and Sky Render), Genji glove and Offering relics, then it was slice,  slice,  slice,  slice, and more slicing and dicing....game over. Roll credits.

Yeah, kinda like that. (Only Final Fantasy fans need apply to the above).  

So yes, the B'rel is an ass kicker, and then some....    

[Alidar Jarok]

It would have been a lot easier if you knew the shield frequencies

[Tremok]

Quote:
The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

W.
 

 For ships so powerful, BoPs seem to have a depressing tendacy to blow up.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Throw in the natural evasivness of the class and the cloaking device, and the tactic gets even harder to counter.  

Should the cloak happen to fail, (ie being detected), then I imagine just how easy it would be to counter said tactic. For wolf-packing, I would actually divide up my shots between two targets if there are three or more. Then I would focus on any weakness I find during the battle. An open shield for example. That is my method if swallowed into such a dire situation.

But often I follow Sun Tzu's advice:

"Weigh the situation, then move."

If the odds are overwhelming in a normal skirmish, I may retreat. Should the enemy be attacking a friendly starbase or a planet and I happen to be there, I will fight to the death.

CIV out.  

[Firestorm]

Well, now Archer is a fugitive from the Klingon prison, so they will milk that for a few opisodes, but at some point, the Federation (namely Archer) and the Klingon High Councel will have to kiss and make up, so they can go on with other story lines for future episodes.

[Whiplash]

How long will it be before the Klingons realize he is gone? It could be a long time. They probably don't expect many of them to escape. They may not take a roll call but once every week or less.

W.
 

[Tremok]

 They probably believe he fell down some fissure or some such.

Or till the NX runs into a another Klingon ship.    

[3dot14]

Quote:
Well, now Archer is a fugitive from the Klingon prison, so they will milk that for a few opisodes, but at some point, the Federation (namely Archer) and the Klingon High Councel will have to kiss and make up, so they can go on with other story lines for future episodes.  

OR,

this could be the start the the (pre)Federation-Klingon First Contact War that we have been waiting for...

(I remember Picard in TNG was mentioning something about a Fed-Klingon war due to botched First Contact)

[Tremok]

 Picard said "A hundred years of conflict", he didn't say war.

How could Starfleet win a war with the Klingons now anyway? Every Klingon ship we have seen, the Raptor, the Battlecruiser, the D5, all have outmatch the Enterprise, and the Klingons supposedly have fleets of them.    

[3dot14]

fine... then CONFLICT(verb)/fight.

So far Klingon and Earth are far too nice to each other... In fact, everyone is nice to (or at least tolerate) Earth.

"starfleet" in its present form (human/earth only) won't win v. Klingons... Maybe that would be the catalyst to band Andor, Vulcan, and Earth (haven't seen Tellar set but I have a felling soon) together as Federation Starfleet? (and get back to "canon" storylines for a change.)

Just as Federation would've lost the Dominion war had the Romulans not joined. (Under Pale Moon Light, one of my favorite episodes)

[Tremok]

Quote:
fine... then CONFLICT(verb)/fight.

So far Klingon and Earth are far too nice to each other... In fact, everyone is nice to (or at least tolerate) Earth.

"starfleet" in its present form (human/earth only) won't win v. Klingons... Maybe that would be the catalyst to band Andor, Vulcan, and Earth (haven't seen Tellar set but I have a felling soon) together as Federation Starfleet? (and get back to "canon" storylines for a change.)

Just as Federation would've lost the Dominion war had the Romulans not joined. (Under Pale Moon Light, one of my favorite episodes)  

 So far, every time the Enterprise has encountered a Klingon vessel, that Klingon vessel has acted aggressively and hostilely towards the Enterprise.  And what happened when the Enterprise acted honorably and helped Klingon subjects? They went from sentencing Archer to a quick death, to a long, drawn out death from hard labor.

If you see this as 'being too nice to each other', so be it.

Also, could you list some races that where nice to the Enterprise? I don't remember all that many.

I remember the random ships have run across the Enterprise and started shooting at her for no reason. We have seen alien ships attach themselves to Enterprise and feed off of her. We have seen evil space stations lure in the Enterprise and kidnap her crew and hooked up the abducted person and use there brain for processing power. We have seen alien races put Archer and Trip into prison because they don't like the look of them. We have seen the Enterprise almost blown into pieces by the Romulans. We have seen several times aliens trying to board and capture the Enterprise.

Seems to me the universe has been all that tolerating so far.    

[Captain KoraH]

 

Quote:
    Not because the three DNs bested the Scimitar in combat. Not all all, the Scimitar still had 70 percent shield strength when all the ships where disabled. The Scimitar died because Shinzon was stupid. Lets see,

1. He pulls up right in front of the Enterprise.

2. He keeps his cloak off.

3. He is so kind to even keep his shields off.

4. When the Enterprises starts comming to him, does he open fire with his weapons trying to knock out the impluse engines? No. Does he try to simply blow the ship to pieces when he realized he doesn't have time to disable her? No. Did he even try to lock on a tractor beam to keep the Enterprise away? No. He just stood there and let the Enterprise ram him.

1. Why not?

2. Why not?

3. Why not?

Lets see... what would I do if I were a "smart Shinzon"?
a) I know I will die in minutes without Picard's body.
b)The Enterprise is without any weapons. She cannot hurt me.  
c)My own ship is virtually unscathed and heavily armored.

So what should I do? According to the above, I should:

a) Stay out of transporter range of Enterprise, preventing me from abducting Picard.
b) Stay cloaked, preventing me from abducting Picard.
c)Keep my shileds up, preventing me from abducting Picard.


Add to this the facts that:
a) Shields have NEVER prevented large, massive, solid objects from penetrating them and striking the ship's hull.
b) The Enterprise is a large, massive, solid object.
c) I need Picard's body in order to continue living more than a couple minutes more.
d) Even if Enterprise ramms me, my ship will only get a little scratched, and Enterprise will be devastated.


It makes perfect sence to me what Shinzon did with his ship. What doesn't make sence to me is why Shinzon didn't just have a henchman kill Picard the moment he materialized aboard Scimitar, and steal his DNA from his dead body. Anyway, it wasn't one of the better movies, and the Scimitar is a joke. I wish the stupid thing had never been invented. Bigger and badder enemies are not better when it comes to storytelling.  

[Tremok]

Lets see... what would I do if I were a "smart Shinzon"?
a) I know I will die in minutes without Picard's body.
b)The Enterprise is without any weapons. She cannot hurt me.  
c)My own ship is virtually unscathed and heavily armored.

So what should I do? According to the above, I should:

a) Stay out of transporter range of Enterprise, preventing me from abducting Picard.
b) Stay cloaked, preventing me from abducting Picard.
c)Keep my shileds up, preventing me from abducting Picard.


Add to this the facts that:
a) Shields have NEVER prevented large, massive, solid objects from penetrating them and striking the ship's hull.
b) The Enterprise is a large, massive, solid object.
c) I need Picard's body in order to continue living more than a couple minutes more.
d) Even if Enterprise ramms me, my ship will only get a little scratched, and Enterprise will be devastated.


 You didn't answer my other questions. Did Shinzon try to shoot out the Enterprises impluse engines when she started her run? Nope. Did he try to lock on a tractor beam? Nope. Considering that the Enterprises shields where all but gone, did he try to beam out Picard and simply destory the ship? Nope.

And didn't the Scimitar transport over troops to the Enterprise while she was still cloaked? Or was this after they lost there cloaked?

Also the Enterprise shields stop a large, massive, metal object (a Valdores blown-off wing). Considering how much bigger and more massive the Scimitar is over the Enterprise, having its shields up would of greatly reduced the impact, it not stopped it completely.  Even if he kept he shields down so he could transport over Picard, why didn't raise them when Enterprise started her ramming run? She had plenty of time.

On a closing comment, the Scimitar was more than a little scratched after the ramming.  

 

[Baker]

Hail to the mighty Fedaration  

[Alidar Jarok]

At the time the Tanker was viewed as a Raptor with its wings down

I've heard a comparison of the D-5 to an "upside-down" Raptor

The fact that these ships look similar isn't really that bad.

[Alidar Jarok]

If you say so

What's wrong with refitting a ship to make it a tanker?

[Tremok]

 The tanker and the D5 look plenty different to my eye.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Are you sure the tanker doesn't look like the Raptor with its wings down?

[Tremok]

It seems to me that they have a different neck, wings, nacelles, and head.

I remember seeing both episodes, and there is enough that I can dell the difference.

Perhaps comparing an episode screen vs. episode screen would be better than comparing episode screen vs. graphic.

[Whiplash]

Hey, Rat Boy,

Really nice profiles of the Klink ships. Where did you get them, or did you make them?

W.
 

[Tremok]

 Saw this ship tonight on Enterprise. Tough, mean looking ship. We even saw her in action! Nice treat.

The facts:

*The D5 is capable of warp 6
*The D5 has shields and multiple disruptors
*The D5 has greater combat capability than the NX-01
*The D5 was mentioned on DS9, but we never saw a picture of her.
*The D5, if I recall correctly, was made buy everyones favorite, John Eaves.


I must say, all in all, I like tonights episode. Some great combat scenes.

EDIT: Anyone else catch the Duras easter egg? Nice    

[ChamadaIV]

What's sad is that the D5's disruptors couldn't even disable Enterprise in the first few shots. Sometimes I think the writers should play SFC 1 or 2 for a bit and see just how long a Fed ship can last against a Klingon battlecrusier without its shields up.

They are treating polarized hull plating like its a viable alternative to shields when it shouldn't be. I'm sorry, Archer and Co. should've died tonight before any Klingon tribunal took place.    

[Tremok]

SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.    

I learned never to underestimate Romulan engineering. How you guys create artificial sigularities that toys with the theories of quantum physics is beyond me.

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise. Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  

[Tremok]

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:


But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

 



Ok, ok. I can understand the intention that the K'Tingas should've looked more primative, but that's merely an artistic impression of visual appearance. A purely cosmetic issue as far as post-production is concerned. The real beef of the topic is the technical aspect of the D5's weaponry. I no longer have any of my old source materials. If I did, I'd have better insight to how effective Klingon disruptors should be against exposed hull, even in an earlier era (you simply scale down the power output levels to a reasonable point). But even those books couldn't tell me squat about "polarized hull plating."

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 

[Tremok]

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

[Tremok]

 Remember it is said that "He would be conisder a hero of the Empire if he killed those refugees", I doubt bringing them back alive was a concern for Duras.

As for how they got Archer, I don't know. Best I can think of is that Duras beamed him off while the NX was running away.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

[Maxillius]

Quote:

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.      

and make that a FF with 2 phaser 3's and one A rack with slow drones

[Tremok]

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

For your first point, I had assumed you were sure about the K'tinga being a DD. I wasn't aware if your unitentional mistake.

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Acknowledged, your example was good and it wasn't my place judge it "flawed" like I did. My apologies.

Quote:
Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.  

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:

 If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic.

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Quote:
This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.

2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

Quote:
As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

Quote:
It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...



   

[FPF_TraceyG]

Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...

[Tremok]

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 The actual designations of ship types really doesn't mean all that much. Everything the Klingons have is a battlecruiser. Also, Starfleet has a precedent of naming its largest, most powerful vessels "explorers". The Excelsior, Galaxy, and Sovereign are all "expkorer" type vessels.  




No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Because they haven't thought of Enterprise or poloraized hull plating when they where making previous Trek shows.    Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Evolution of weapons.    Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? The Defiant had ablative armor which could be blasted away percent by percent. Perhaps the NX uses a more primitve form of that armor, or simply could be that weapon hits drain the energy reserves, and once drain the polarizing goes away, leaving the ship vurnable.  That's the flawed logic IMO.


2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

 Huh, yes, polarized hull plating saved the ship. Good conclusion.  


Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

 The Raptor overall is probably the best ship in the game, but on a un-modded server, I generally rather have a Warbird. I always have been a follower of the Battleship/Tank philosophy, and the Warbird does the Battleship/Tank better than the Raptor.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...


 Killing him would of an act of honor and respect in the Klingon culture.    

[Jwest]

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Simply put, the same reason there's no mention of wood hulls and rigging in todays navy. They're Obsolete by today's standards. But although wooden hulls and rigging are weaker than todays ships, there was a period when the most powerful wooden ships could be threat to the early ironclads. By the same token, just because polarized hull plating is weaker and/or less energy efficient than shields doesn't mean it's not a useful defense against an early disruptor, capable of protecting the ship against a few shots.

Remember, the half-power disruptors of SFC *fighter* is probably more powerful than the big guns of this battlecruiser.

Mind you - there are a lot of problems with this episode, I just can't say the fact that NX-01 can survive the first shots is one of them.

JW  

[Tremok]

Quote:
Interesting... Paramount who hates all things Amarillo Design Bureau, and yet, where was the non-canon D5 ship classification first seen by fans anywhere? Well, Starfleet Battles of course... 20 years ago...
Curious...  

 The D5 in the show is much better anyway. Besides, I wouldn't want every new ship to come from an older Trek game. I like seeing completely new ships.  

Also, speaking on the subject of game ship designs, who designed the SFC1&2 Romulan ships and the SFC3 Romulan ships? I must say, I would be discourage  to have anyone that designed/approved SFC3 Romulan ships  make ships for the Romulans on TV (shiver).    

[FPF_TraceyG]

New ship designs are good, yes. It does )for me anyway) become a bit disconverting to have all these different 'versions' of a Trek Universe though, ones where a D5 is a light cruiser and now one where its a Battlecruiser in the 22nd century.
I can see the point about inconsistency in a timeline where technology that exists before a point in time doesnt exists after it. Of course, its Star Trek, so perhaps this explainable, but its not something that TNG ever had to deal with. Gene Rodenberryvery cleverly placed TNG, what was it, 70, 80 100 years after the Original Series? Which gave a lot of breathing space for new technology and gave the script writers the room they needed to be creative.
Enterprise is now set in a historical context, and doesnt (or shouldnt) have that luxury.

[Tremok]

 I don't think the SFC D5 was ever canon.    

[FPF_TraceyG]

The D5 wasnt... no, you are correct.
However, the term D7 was never canon either, but is treated as such.
The question then of what is canon and what isnt is, I'm sure, an arguable question and strictly speaking, whatever appears officially in the TV series or movies is canon (even with all of its inconsistencies). A certain degree of fan-based non-canon material has worked its way into what is now canon, but even still, I wasnt actually saying calling the Enterprise D5 an inconsistency. However, for me personally, I've come to think of a D5 as the Light Cruiser created by ADB, and there is a wealth of non-canon material which the fan base has gone to great lengths to ensure not only is it consistent with canon material but also with itself as well. This adds much more depth, realism, believability and cohesion to the entire Star Trek Universe and I for one welcome it. It would be nice if Paramount acknowledged the efforts of its fan base and went along with that as well, instead of creating not just inconsistencies with non-canon material, which is neither here nor there, really, but inconsistencies with its own material.

[Apocolypse]

  Thinking that this would actually be a worthwhile topic, i read it. All i have to say is blah blah blah blah blah. A Klingon D5 should NOT be able to disable nor destroy  Enterprise with a few shots. Why you might ask? Simply the same reason that the Excelsior is in SFC3. Ships get refitted, they arent doomed to their original design, the ship that is the D5 in Enterprise is NOT the same ship that is in SFC. Thought that would be apparant, guess not.  

[Maxillius]

The K'tinga in SFC3 is a CL, a heavy DD at least, but in SFC1,2 and OP it is a full-grown Battlecruiser.  So, by such logic, considering the Klingons use their hulls a LOT longer than anyone else, the brand-new D5 battlecruiser in Enterprise would very likely be a CL or more approprately, CW, by the time of the SFC series.

I'm curious as to why the K'tinga in SFC3 is a D8 in the description screen... perhaps because there was no D8 before?  Anyhow, that D5 looked more like an F5 to me (with a few differences), and they possibly just switched designations on later refits.

[sjvessey]

Oh noooo... sorry but it just makes me laugh... all this talk of weapons and their effectiveness against bare hulls.  You know, a late 20th century hydrogen bomb containing a few kilos of the relevant matter (various hydrogen compounds, some tritium and a plutonium initiator) creates a 50 megaton explosion that utterly destroys anything within a few miles of the epicentre of the explosion.  A nuclear-tipped missile detonating against the bare hull of a starship would literally vaporise it instantaneously.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but 'photon torpedoes' are supposed to contain antimatter.  Your typical everyday fusion explosion converts 4 percent of the available matter to energy, whereas with antimatter the efficiency is 100 percent.  In simple terms this means that an antimatter explosion is approximately 25 times more powerful.

So how come when photon torpedoes detonate you get an explosion that looks about the same intensity as a 2000lb JDAM bomb full of C4 going off, instead of a gigaton blast wave that destroys everything within 100 miles?

Utterly ridiculous.



 

[Alidar Jarok]

Anybody have a screenshot of the ship (I missed the episode   )

The K't'inga is a CL

It goes:

B'rel (FF)
K'vort (DD)
K't'inga (CL)
Fehk'lrh (CA)
Vor'cha (BCH)
Negh'var (DN)

The K't'inga was a CA (or, more specifically, the D6 or 7 was a CA the D7W K't'inga class was more advanced)
Now it is a CL (A complete drop in class)

The D-5 is probably the same class as the D7W
It was dropped to a CL

The reason a D5 isn't in SFC3 is because the K'Vort is much more manuverable (something deperatly needed for a DD)

[Tremok]

Quote:
The K'tinga in SFC3 is a CL, a heavy DD at least, but in SFC1,2 and OP it is a full-grown Battlecruiser.  So, by such logic, considering the Klingons use their hulls a LOT longer than anyone else, the brand-new D5 battlecruiser in Enterprise would very likely be a CL or more approprately, CW, by the time of the SFC series.

I'm curious as to why the K'tinga in SFC3 is a D8 in the description screen... perhaps because there was no D8 before?  Anyhow, that D5 looked more like an F5 to me (with a few differences), and they possibly just switched designations on later refits.  

 In Enterprise the K'tinga is suppose to be a brand new ship, while the the D5 is old and worn out.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Images of D5

[JOLLYROGER]

I usually don't post on this forum, but I must answer to this RE:

It's called future technology. Technology this strong because it SCIFI.

   

[Captain KoraH]

I just have to say how rediculous it is for anyone to gauge Trek episodes off of a game. The two are light years appart from each other. To the writers of Enterprise, SFB, SFC and this little forum don't matter, heck they don't even exist. The line of reason goes the OTHER way folks. The game is based on the SHOW, not the other way around. Any analogy between this game and the latest episode of Trek are totally coincidental. In canon Trek, there is no such thing as a "Phaser 3" on a starship, or a "Gattling Phaser" or even "Hydrans".

The D-5 was mentioned in DS9, but I don't think it's the same D-5 class from Enterprise.


Easter Eggs in last night's episode:

Weapons Officer Duras. Obviously an ancestor of the warrior Duras, and the Duras sisters, Lursa and Be'tor. Will reprise his role in season finale 'The Expanse' in late May.

Klingon arbitrator Kolos played by J.G. Hertzler (best Klingon actor of all time, see poll below) He has played the Hirogen Hunter in Voyager, Vulcan Captain in TNG "Emissary: Part 1" and  "Laas" in DS9 "Chimera" as well as playing Martok in 17 episodes of Trek. An incredible actor, he has also been on "Everybody Loves Raymond", "Touched by an Angel", "Roswell", "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch", "Charmed", "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman", "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman", "Diagnosis Murder", "Adventures of Brisco County Jr.", "Highlander" and "Quantum Leap". There is none higher...

D-5 ship named  "BortaS" (same as Gowron's flagship. Word "BortaS" in Klingon means "revenge" Worf served as weapons officer aboard the BortaS for a time)

Entire courtroom set, complete with judges gavel, Klingon wall banner and lifetime sentence to Rura Penthe. Straight out of Star Trek VI. Very poor work, lack of imagination.

John Vickery, who plays Orak the Klingon prosecutor, appeared as a Cardassian Gul in DS9

Raw Targ served nightly in Klingon prison... I thought that was a delicasy?

Klingon Blood Wine... I've tasted it, have you? Great stuff!


This episode wins my personal award for...

WORST PLOT HOLE IN HISTORY

It's not how Archer was apprehended...

It's not why Starfleet has no say in what happens to him, or why nobody even contacts them...

It's not that the Klingons pay more attention to Archer's career than Starfleet...

It's not Those things... Ok, yes it is.


J.G. Hertzler = Greatest Klingon actor ever to grace the screen.... here's proof:

Poll at StarTRek.com:

Who is your favorite Klingon actor?

Kor - 4.60% (41)    <-------------John Colicos, RIP.... My favorite until Martok.
Koloth - 1.91% (17)
Kang - 5.16% (46)
Mara - 2.13% (19) <------------------WTF?
Kahless - 6.73% (60) <--------------------------Little kids vote here.
Kruge - 2.13% (19) <-----------Should have been more.
Gorkon - 2.80% (25)
Chang - 8.86% (79) <-------------Should have been less.
Korris - 0.34% (3)
Kurn - 2.13% (19) <--------- Great Klingon, not enough screen time. Sorry Kurn...
K'mpec - 1.57% (14)
Duras - 1.46% (13)
Gowron - 9.75% (87)  <--------Fools and traitors of the Empire vote here.
Lursa & B'Etor - 9.42% (84)
Martok - 38.34% (342)   <--------------------- J.G Hertzler. The numbers speak for themselves.
Klaang - 2.69% (24)


 

[Scipio_66]

Quote:
Originally posted by Korah

Poll at StarTRek.com:

Who is your favorite Klingon actor?

Kahless - 6.73% (60) <--------------------------Little kids vote here.
 

Who are they voting for here?  The *real* Kahless from ST:TOS  (With the dark complexion and the smooth forehead)?  Or the Kahless clone with the turtle-head from STTNG?

<pointless banter>  Oh yes, and this thread proves how we were "saved" by the move from SFC2 to SFC3;  since no one will ever argue about ST canon but everyone argues about SFB.  <snicker>

-S'Cipio  

[Lieutenant_Q]

Quote:


Kruge - 2.13% (19) <-----------Should have been more.

 

I agree with ya here, Christopher Lloyd Defined the new Klingons!  

[Apocolypse]

  Yeah, i third that one.  

[Cozbo]

Didn't see the show but  posting to your thoughts on why a D5 didn't blow up the NX-01

Well, I guess the reason the NX-01 was able to survive is the same reason I win many battles against superior ships and fleets in D3: Captain Error.

 When I play a player that is 1)Inexperienced or 2)Unfamiliar with the capablities of his ship or 3)Over confident or 4) Using the wrong tactics or 5) Timid or 6) Too aggressive or 7)A combination of all,  it doesn't matter if they have 2 class sizes better than me they will lose.

Incompentence comes in all sizes and shapes.

 

[Tulmahk]

Why didn't the D5's shots destroy Enterprise right away?

#1:  Their AV was too high!
#2:  Mayweather can Evasive Maneuvers like nobody's business!  

[Maxillius]

BortaS wasn't trying to destroy Enterprise, she was trying to disable her enough to board and take the refugees, possibly even scout/take the ship.

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
Why didn't the D5's shots destroy Enterprise right away?

#1:  Their AV was too high!
#2:  Mayweather can Evasive Maneuvers like nobody's business!  

Heh, but #2 is invalid as it was clearly shown that Enterprise was hit several times. So much for EM tactics...

I guess those disruptors were half the power of the weakest disruptors available in SFC. Or it was distance factor (the power from the shots dissapated as they traveled towards NX-01), OR it was the writers who cared more about the story and less about the technology and decided it was prudent to show that the ship survived the incident so that they could rescue Archer and still have a ship to carry the show on with (it's no good to destroy your starring ship and cast...hey wait, didn't NBC destroy the seaQuest a couple of times and still had a show going?).

Heh, that's what they should do: destroy the ship. The NCC-1701 went down in ST III, the 1701-C was blown away by Romulans, 1701-D went down after the Nexus incident, and the 1701-E got beat up real bad in ST Nemesis. It's a tradition of mayhem and destruction on the BigE. But just because you kill the ship doesn't mean the crew has to die either. At least this will give Paramount an excuse to give Archer a better ship that could withstand shots from a D5 more believably.  

[La'ra]

Quote:
 In Enterprise the K'tinga is suppose to be a brand new ship, while the the D5 is old and worn out.    

Assuming that the battlecruiser in 'Unexpected' was a K'tinga class is rather silly.  We've seen that the Klingons tend to stick with the same hull designs, so it's likely an older, smaller, ancestor of the D7's and the K'tinga-class.  

[Tremok]

Assuming that the battlecruiser in 'Unexpected' was a K'tinga class is rather silly.  We've seen that the Klingons tend to stick with the same hull designs, so it's likely an older, smaller, ancestor of the D7's and the K'tinga-class.  

 Nitpicky aren't you? Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

I'll try to remember to call it the D-7 type for now on.    

[La'ra]

 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.  

[Tulmahk]

Quote:


Heh, but #2 is invalid as it was clearly shown that Enterprise was hit several times. So much for EM tactics...

As you know, EM doesn't only make the ship harder to hit, but reduces the damage done when it does get hit (just like AV).  

[Tremok]

Quote:
 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.    

 Well, rest assured, it was a simple typograpical error. You see, in my mind, the K'tinga is the generic name for all type D7s, and sometimes my hands just type out that name (K'tinga) without actually thinking what D7 type variant it is.      

[jimmi7769]

Quote:

Quote:
 

Quote:
 Nitpicky aren't you?

When it comes to ships, RL or sci-fi, I am.  Very much so, in fact.

Quote:
Did you actually believe when I said K'tinga I was talking about the D-7 type seen in The Undiscovered Country? If so, I offer you many my pardons for my typographical errors.

If you had meant that, you certainly wouldn't have been the first.    

 Well, rest assured, it was a simple typograpical error. You see, in my mind, the K'tinga is the generic name for all type D7s, and sometimes my hands just type out that name (K'tinga) without actually thinking what D7 type variant it is.      

D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?

RE: Enterprise class

That's debatable

[wanderer]

Quote:

Quote:
D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?

The only place where I have ever seen the 'Klolode Class' is from a non-canon source, "Starship Design" by Starstation Aurora, the same publication that brought us the K'Teremny. There is a picture of a Klingon cruiser from TOS that is labeled a "Klolode Class Battlecruiser". The K'teremny is described as "a further extension of the Raxor/Klolode/K'Tinga warship design."  

[Tremok]

Quote:


D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.  

[Karnak]

I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

[Alidar Jarok]

A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.

[Karnak]

Quote:
A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  

There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.

[jimmi7769]

Quote:

Quote:


D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  

  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.  

Actually where I got it from was the FASA Star Trek The Role Playing game.  Klingon Ship Recognition manual.
And not SFB.

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:


6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

That's because they did too good of a job.  Self-destruct was disabled (so no victory like ST3).  It did a better job than the BoP in ST6 did.

Quote:
7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

Some survived and were captured.  Its not my fault that Klingons don't do anything "high-risk"

Here are some

Star Trek 3:
Klingon Bird of Prey captured without a fight

Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.
Chancellor Dead
Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked destroyed

Star Trek 7:
D-12 destroyed due to faulty design

Day of the Dove:
D-7 destroyed because it was emmiting radiation and was a "Hazard"

[Karnak]

Quote:
Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.

??????

I would hardly call a D7W the flagship of the Empire. The ship was also not destoryed.

[Tremok]

I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

 Forget to mention that the Enterprise was stolen, way undermanned, and not at full combat readiness did you?  

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

 End result: BoP dead, the Enterprise and Excelsior find and dandy. And while the Excelsior took a few good hits, it wasn't all that damaged.  

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

 Only because the BoP used Romulan like subterfuge to gets Enterprise's shield frequency. And they still died. And how many torpedoes did it take to kill the BoP? Just one. The Enterprise took several photons and disruptor hits. And then it wouldn't have gone down if not for the lucky last shot plasma manifold hit.  

 

And how convient of you not to mention all the times the Enterprise has whacked Klingon ships upsided they head. DS9 really whooped that Klingon fleet didn't it? Also I must said I was impressed by the way the Defiant went threw Klingon ships like a hot knife through warm butter. Seems to me the Klingons didn't fare to well with the conflict against the Federation in the 2370s.  

4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

 Whatever. Show me a source that the Klingons did the best against the Jem'hadar. We DO know they did take the most casualties of the war.

And yes, they way the Klingons engineered their vessels made them immune to the Breen weapon, and they had hold the line until the Federation and Romulans had a time to refit. And Gowron handle it so poorly they have to overthrow him and get a new Chancellor.

Are you trying to make a point that Klingon engineering is superior to the Federations or Klingons or somesuch?

Edit: Also forgot about that Klingon fleet that went to Breen space and never returned.  

5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

 That is a bit of an arrogant statemnent. We don't know if it was easy or not, since we don't know how they did it.

And you forgot to mention the part where the Enterprise DEFEATED the D5. It is true that the NX is not a match for Klingon ships of this period, and wasn't the equal of the D5. The Enterprise crew used their heads and what they had available to them to beat the D5 fair and square. They could of destroyed her if they wished, it was said so in the episode.    

Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

 Lets see. As you mentioned above,

1. Klingon ships beats up a stolen, undermanned and underpowered Enterprise.

2. Klingons use fire while cloak technology to attack Enterprise and the Excelsior. Klingon looses anyway.

2. Klingon uses subterfuge to find Enterprises shield frequency. Klingons loose anyway. (the Klingons all died, the Enterprise crew didn't).

See, its your very own Klingons that are using the cowardly subterfuge and cloak and daggar!  

6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

 Not because the three DNs bested the Scimitar in combat. Not all all, the Scimitar still had 70 percent shield strength when all the ships where disabled. The Scimitar died because Shinzon was stupid. Lets see,

1. He pulls up right in front of the Enterprise.

2. He keeps his cloak off.

3. He is so kind to even keep his shields off.

4. When the Enterprises starts comming to him, does he open fire with his weapons trying to knock out the impluse engines? No. Does he try to simply blow the ship to pieces when he realized he doesn't have time to disable her? No. Did he even try to lock on a tractor beam to keep the Enterprise away? No. He just stood there and let the Enterprise ram him.

And the two Valdores weren't killed. Severely damaged, yes, like the Enterprise was, but not killed.  

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

 That was the Tal Shiar acting on their own. And it was a trap in the first place. Besides, the Dominion was beating around everyone at that time.

Nice of you  not to mention the Federation/Klingons would of lost the war if not for the Romulan entrance.  

9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

 The BoP probably wasn't as good of a ship as the Constitution. Even so, Kirk respected the Romulans and their ship.  
 

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  

There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.

 Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?  

[Alidar Jarok]

The Qo'onos one wasn't the flag ship?

You might be right about it not being destroyed.

But it was the only ship to loose artificial gravity

[Karnak]

Quote:
Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.  How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  Colonel Luvok changeling and the 4 changelings on Earth got away.;)  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.

[Tremok]

Quote:
Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?

Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.

 Good. I don't like the Tal Shiar.  

 How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

 The Dominion was manipulating everyone. Cardassians, Federation, Romulans, Klingon.

I wouldn't say "No wonder they Cardassians where so easily manipulated" when they where manipulating everyone.  

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  

 Thanks to the help of the Federation.  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.  

 Considering it was the Enterprise that defeated Chang. Once that torpedo struck home it was finished. All the Excelsior did was maybe take a few extra hits for the Enterprise and quicken the destruction of the BoP.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Target that explosion and fire  

[Tremok]

  Tremok enjoys the pretty explosion    

[La'ra]

Balance of Terror:  Constitutions-class vessel destroys the pride of the Romulan fleet in a running fight.  Final tally: One Warbird gone, one fatality aboard Enterprise.

The Deadly Years:  An estimated ten Romulan warships don't manage to destroy the same Constitution-class starship despite her being commanded by an officer highly inexperienced in space combat.

The Enterprise Incident:  Three Romulan vessels of a design considered roughly equal to a Constituion-class are outmanuevered by a single Federation ship which steals a cloaking device and gets away clean.

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

I can probably find more, but it makes little difference.  Romulans have never been portrayed as an enemy as difficult to conquer as the Klingons, and judging from their reliance on skullduggery and ridiculous plots they're too weak to sustain a conflict with either the Federation or the Klingon Empire.

The Klingons, by contrast, did rather well against the Federation despite a few 'featured on Deep Space Nine' losses.  Afterward, they still had plenty left to hold the line and were pivotal in several Alliance victories versus the Gamma Quadrant invaders.  Also, in several 'alternate history' episodes we've seen, the Romulan Empire was subjugated by the Klingons....

In any case, it's kind of a silly thing to be arguing about.  Go read some of my fanfic if you like Klingons and some of Jaeih's or Sethans if you like Rommies.  Most of the people on that board are very good at capturing the flavor of their favorite Empires.  

[Tremok]

 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).  Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.

I could comment that I wouldn't confuse the failures of Romulan subterfuge plans (most of the Romulan failures you mentioned) to mean they are weak. Those plans had the potential to bringe great rewards for the Empire, but didn't work out. Well, what did the loose in trying? But when Romulans DO fight, I believe they have shown themselves as formidable.

 But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.  

I personally think that  all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, they just different styles, advantages, and disadvantages.

   

[La'ra]

Quote:
 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

Quote:
Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

Quote:
Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.  Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.  Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

Quote:
I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

[Alidar Jarok]

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Another international politics thing.

The Romulans were willing to sacrifice something they wanted for personal gains when they saw it was not worth a war against their allies

Anyway

The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

The Klingons have a weaker economy

The Cardassians have inferior ships and, IMO, a weaker economy (at least after the war)

The Dominion is superior to the Federation in every way.

The Ferengi have ships on par with the Federation and Romulans (or, at least they did at the begining of the series.  The Suliban remind me alot of the Ferengi)
Their economy seems pretty good.
They don't seem as interested in international politics

The Breen are a mystery (very similar to the Gorn of TOS)
Their only advantage appeared to be the energy weapon.
They lack quality shields and have weapons similar to Klingons
Their economy and planet as a whole is unkown

I won't bother mentioning the Borg or 8472

The Kazon are technologically and economically inferior, but they stole some big ships

The Hirogen have made ships that are around the level of the Federation, but they haven't developed infistucture or economy.

[La'ra]

Quote:
You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird

You wish that were a feasible argument.  The size of those ships shifted even between shots, and we never saw a similarly sized Bird of Prey before or since.  Therefore, I doubt seriously there are Negh'Var sized BoPs.  You can subscribe to the notion if you wish, naturally.

Quote:
Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted

Yes.  They didn't want a war, and thus didn't want a fight.  However, if they'd fought, and won, the Klingon Empire just became their ally.  Seems to me that they aren't too happy with the prospect of a war with the Federation even with an ally who can directly compete with the Federation.

Quote:
They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion

Yes.  They knew they couldn't support a invasion of Vulcan using conventional methods, and abandoned the idea, destroying any evidence that might lead the military action by the Federation.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Quote:
The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

We haven't seen enough of the Romulan military to judge, unless, as I tend to, use this absence itself as data for analysis.  

[Alidar Jarok]

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

The Romulans have the resource and Technology of the Federation.  They have a deeply loyal people who know "that they might have to sacrifice their lives for the Empire (Balance of Terror: The commander self-destructed his ship, Defector: A Romulan defector is almost a contradiction in terms", Unification: Their own people were killed to preserve evidence)

What the Romulans don't have is territory (I tend to think they have the smallest empire of the 3.  An empire consisting entirely of Romulans, and now Remens).  They are isolationist, so they haven't expanded as fast as the Klingons and Federation.

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them/

They are very similar.

Goverment, people, intelligence

But I think that the Cardassians were falling behing technologically compared to "The big 3"

Dukat (or mabye Damar) said so himself, when he said that (or said he "thought that", depending on who said it) the Dominion would make Cardassia strong again.

I think Romulan ships were superior - although we only see Romulan DNs.  Cardassia uses CAs, BCHs (maybe, unless the Keldon is another CA), and DDs

[Tremok]

Quote:
 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

 I like all of the Big3, but Romulans are may favorite, and I will defend them, when they are challenged, as I am sure you would when someone challenges the Klingons.  

Quote:
Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).

Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

 Icing on cake I say. Well, guess we Romulans can't always have our cake and eat it two.  

Quote:
Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance

I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.

 I don't know about that. We saw some rather huge Romulan Warbird fleets in the Dominion War. But yes, I doubt the Romulans had the fleets nessecary for dealing with both the Federation and Klingons. Contesting one or the other, perhaps, but not both.  Again, like Picard said, the only thing that contain the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.  

Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...

  I believe its called effeciency. [/color

 and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.

 Well, the transports where already well inside Federation space, I don't see any reasonable act of getting them home safetly. I am sure they would of if the could.  

 Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

  Oh yes, Romulans love to intimidate. And I will agree with you that the D'deridex looks like it was design to intimidate. I don't see this as a sign that the ship is weak or anything though.  

Quote:
But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.

Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

 Well, one got its wing blown off. We don't know what happened after that. Notice how the wing collided with the Enterprise but stayed intact? Made of some strong stuff.

I for myself see the Romulans as highly trained and professional warriors that rely on strategy and and relatively small fleets of highly advance and powerful ships to get the job down.


With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

 We have absolutely no idea how many resources the Romulans have so I can't comment.  

Quote:
I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    

Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

 Ah, I view the Romulans as the professionals, the Cardassians are just drunken thugs. The Romulans also have the mnhei'sahe honor code, while the Cardassians don't.  They're stupid too.

When you see Romulans you see a people that are intensely loyal, highly trained, professional, and extremely dedicated to a cause. You seem that they love there Empire and there culture,  and its there dream to see the it (the Empire and culture) advance and progress, and they devote there lifes to that end.

Cardassians are just slobbering fools. Bullies who just abuse and use peple that are weaker than them. They don't appear to be highly trained or discipline. The only things they love and devote their lifes to is the betterment of themselves.

And what could the Cardassains have that would challenge the Romulans? There Galors and Keldons are nothing compared to the D'deridex.

I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.  

[Karnak]

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

[ChamadaIV]

Yeesh. I leave this thread for a few days and look what happens. It goes from a debate over the D5 to a debate over the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant. I guess I'll wait for the final word on Ex Astris Scientia about the D5 then...

Quote:

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

You have to recall the importance of the Enterprise-C and its role at the battle of Khitomer. The Rommies instigated that conflict when they attacked the Klingon colony. The alternate reality started because the Klinks thought the Ent-C left them to die when the ship was pulled into the future by the temporal anomoly. This must've been considered an outrage, a total lack of honor, and sheer heartlessness, thus they declared war on the Feds. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went to war with the Roms as well. How they take on two major powers is beyond me. But you know what happens when you piss off a Klingon warrior, right? Ok, now think what happens when you piss off an entire Empire of warriors. Get the picture?

Of course, like the "Mighty Hood," Garrett and the BigE-C ultimately went off into Death's maw and valiantly fought it off until the end.

"We will never forget...the sacrifice of the brave heroes on the Enterprise-C, the defenders of Khitomer."  

Heh, that ought to be my new sig now...      

[Tremok]

Quote:

Quote:
I would much rather see a full blown conflict between the Klingons and the Romulans. Love to see how that turns out.

Probably pretty bad for the Romulans.  The Klingons were blood enemies for 80+ years with the Romulans before the Dominion War and still could fend off the Feds during this time when necessary.  In fact, in an alternate timeline where Garrett's Enterprise 1701-C fails in its mission, the Klingons goto war with the Feds and win.  Picard said that Starfleet had maybe 6 months left before they would have to surrender to the Klingons.  If the Klingons can beat the Feds they are in good shape to beat any race in the Alpha Quadrant.

Now, I know you are gonna say that the Klingons must have allied with the Rommies in this alternate timeline.  Well, you just don't know that....

The Rommies were more likely crapping their pants and went neutral just like they did in the early part of the Dominion War.

 IIf you where writing the canon, I am sure they would Mr. Karnak    

[Whiplash]

Does anyone know where I can see some photos and/or schematics of the D5 online?

W.

[Whiplash]

The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

The Dominion, clearly a capable military force that conquered their entire quadrant, also realize that little flying weapons platforms make excellent mainstays of a battle fleet.

W.
 

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

You know what's odd is that you may actually be right about that as far as SFC3 is concerned. Nobody may believe this, but my first time through the Klingon campaign, I went through it all with the B'Rel they started me in. I kid you not. I was amazed how easy it was to exploit the AI in the final battle against the Negh'var. Because I was so maneuverable and the bigger ship wasn't, I simply EM its first few shots (I still took some damage, some minor internals easily repaired) and then I stuck like glue to its port side keeping my guns facing the enemy while he kept turning trying to face me, but couldn't. In essence, the Negh'var was unable to attack me and I kept beating on his port side until it was over. The most pathetic final fight in gaming history (which I'm sure Taldren had hoped it would be something more).

Almost reminded me of the last battle in Final Fantasy VI :

Kefka casts Fallen One

My party HPs all reduced to 1.

I respond with :

Terra casts Quick on herself, then MagicX (gem box), Ultima deals 9999 damage, another Ultima.

Edgar casts Quick, then Illumina sword 9999 damage, then once more.

Sabin does his Bum Rush for mass damage.

Then Cyan steps in with two-sword combo (Murasame and Sky Render), Genji glove and Offering relics, then it was slice,  slice,  slice,  slice, and more slicing and dicing....game over. Roll credits.

Yeah, kinda like that. (Only Final Fantasy fans need apply to the above).  

So yes, the B'rel is an ass kicker, and then some....    

[Alidar Jarok]

It would have been a lot easier if you knew the shield frequencies

[Tremok]

Quote:
The thing about the Bird of Prey is that it is so small. When you take the weapons and shields of a big ship and put them on a flying, cloakable power core, you get a ship that, pound for pound, outstrips nearly every other ship out there. The Defiant is the only exception I can think of that might be superior. The Jem'hadar ships were equal or inferior. I bet 3 B'rels (inStar Trek) can take out just about any one ship out there, and be built for 1/5 the price of that ship.

W.
 

 For ships so powerful, BoPs seem to have a depressing tendacy to blow up.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Throw in the natural evasivness of the class and the cloaking device, and the tactic gets even harder to counter.  

Should the cloak happen to fail, (ie being detected), then I imagine just how easy it would be to counter said tactic. For wolf-packing, I would actually divide up my shots between two targets if there are three or more. Then I would focus on any weakness I find during the battle. An open shield for example. That is my method if swallowed into such a dire situation.

But often I follow Sun Tzu's advice:

"Weigh the situation, then move."

If the odds are overwhelming in a normal skirmish, I may retreat. Should the enemy be attacking a friendly starbase or a planet and I happen to be there, I will fight to the death.

CIV out.  

[Firestorm]

Well, now Archer is a fugitive from the Klingon prison, so they will milk that for a few opisodes, but at some point, the Federation (namely Archer) and the Klingon High Councel will have to kiss and make up, so they can go on with other story lines for future episodes.

[Whiplash]

How long will it be before the Klingons realize he is gone? It could be a long time. They probably don't expect many of them to escape. They may not take a roll call but once every week or less.

W.
 

[Tremok]

 They probably believe he fell down some fissure or some such.

Or till the NX runs into a another Klingon ship.    

[3dot14]

Quote:
Well, now Archer is a fugitive from the Klingon prison, so they will milk that for a few opisodes, but at some point, the Federation (namely Archer) and the Klingon High Councel will have to kiss and make up, so they can go on with other story lines for future episodes.  

OR,

this could be the start the the (pre)Federation-Klingon First Contact War that we have been waiting for...

(I remember Picard in TNG was mentioning something about a Fed-Klingon war due to botched First Contact)

[Tremok]

 Picard said "A hundred years of conflict", he didn't say war.

How could Starfleet win a war with the Klingons now anyway? Every Klingon ship we have seen, the Raptor, the Battlecruiser, the D5, all have outmatch the Enterprise, and the Klingons supposedly have fleets of them.    

[3dot14]

fine... then CONFLICT(verb)/fight.

So far Klingon and Earth are far too nice to each other... In fact, everyone is nice to (or at least tolerate) Earth.

"starfleet" in its present form (human/earth only) won't win v. Klingons... Maybe that would be the catalyst to band Andor, Vulcan, and Earth (haven't seen Tellar set but I have a felling soon) together as Federation Starfleet? (and get back to "canon" storylines for a change.)

Just as Federation would've lost the Dominion war had the Romulans not joined. (Under Pale Moon Light, one of my favorite episodes)

[Tremok]

Quote:
fine... then CONFLICT(verb)/fight.

So far Klingon and Earth are far too nice to each other... In fact, everyone is nice to (or at least tolerate) Earth.

"starfleet" in its present form (human/earth only) won't win v. Klingons... Maybe that would be the catalyst to band Andor, Vulcan, and Earth (haven't seen Tellar set but I have a felling soon) together as Federation Starfleet? (and get back to "canon" storylines for a change.)

Just as Federation would've lost the Dominion war had the Romulans not joined. (Under Pale Moon Light, one of my favorite episodes)  

 So far, every time the Enterprise has encountered a Klingon vessel, that Klingon vessel has acted aggressively and hostilely towards the Enterprise.  And what happened when the Enterprise acted honorably and helped Klingon subjects? They went from sentencing Archer to a quick death, to a long, drawn out death from hard labor.

If you see this as 'being too nice to each other', so be it.

Also, could you list some races that where nice to the Enterprise? I don't remember all that many.

I remember the random ships have run across the Enterprise and started shooting at her for no reason. We have seen alien ships attach themselves to Enterprise and feed off of her. We have seen evil space stations lure in the Enterprise and kidnap her crew and hooked up the abducted person and use there brain for processing power. We have seen alien races put Archer and Trip into prison because they don't like the look of them. We have seen the Enterprise almost blown into pieces by the Romulans. We have seen several times aliens trying to board and capture the Enterprise.

Seems to me the universe has been all that tolerating so far.    

[Captain KoraH]

 

Quote:
    Not because the three DNs bested the Scimitar in combat. Not all all, the Scimitar still had 70 percent shield strength when all the ships where disabled. The Scimitar died because Shinzon was stupid. Lets see,

1. He pulls up right in front of the Enterprise.

2. He keeps his cloak off.

3. He is so kind to even keep his shields off.

4. When the Enterprises starts comming to him, does he open fire with his weapons trying to knock out the impluse engines? No. Does he try to simply blow the ship to pieces when he realized he doesn't have time to disable her? No. Did he even try to lock on a tractor beam to keep the Enterprise away? No. He just stood there and let the Enterprise ram him.

1. Why not?

2. Why not?

3. Why not?

Lets see... what would I do if I were a "smart Shinzon"?
a) I know I will die in minutes without Picard's body.
b)The Enterprise is without any weapons. She cannot hurt me.  
c)My own ship is virtually unscathed and heavily armored.

So what should I do? According to the above, I should:

a) Stay out of transporter range of Enterprise, preventing me from abducting Picard.
b) Stay cloaked, preventing me from abducting Picard.
c)Keep my shileds up, preventing me from abducting Picard.


Add to this the facts that:
a) Shields have NEVER prevented large, massive, solid objects from penetrating them and striking the ship's hull.
b) The Enterprise is a large, massive, solid object.
c) I need Picard's body in order to continue living more than a couple minutes more.
d) Even if Enterprise ramms me, my ship will only get a little scratched, and Enterprise will be devastated.


It makes perfect sence to me what Shinzon did with his ship. What doesn't make sence to me is why Shinzon didn't just have a henchman kill Picard the moment he materialized aboard Scimitar, and steal his DNA from his dead body. Anyway, it wasn't one of the better movies, and the Scimitar is a joke. I wish the stupid thing had never been invented. Bigger and badder enemies are not better when it comes to storytelling.  

[Tremok]

Lets see... what would I do if I were a "smart Shinzon"?
a) I know I will die in minutes without Picard's body.
b)The Enterprise is without any weapons. She cannot hurt me.  
c)My own ship is virtually unscathed and heavily armored.

So what should I do? According to the above, I should:

a) Stay out of transporter range of Enterprise, preventing me from abducting Picard.
b) Stay cloaked, preventing me from abducting Picard.
c)Keep my shileds up, preventing me from abducting Picard.


Add to this the facts that:
a) Shields have NEVER prevented large, massive, solid objects from penetrating them and striking the ship's hull.
b) The Enterprise is a large, massive, solid object.
c) I need Picard's body in order to continue living more than a couple minutes more.
d) Even if Enterprise ramms me, my ship will only get a little scratched, and Enterprise will be devastated.


 You didn't answer my other questions. Did Shinzon try to shoot out the Enterprises impluse engines when she started her run? Nope. Did he try to lock on a tractor beam? Nope. Considering that the Enterprises shields where all but gone, did he try to beam out Picard and simply destory the ship? Nope.

And didn't the Scimitar transport over troops to the Enterprise while she was still cloaked? Or was this after they lost there cloaked?

Also the Enterprise shields stop a large, massive, metal object (a Valdores blown-off wing). Considering how much bigger and more massive the Scimitar is over the Enterprise, having its shields up would of greatly reduced the impact, it not stopped it completely.  Even if he kept he shields down so he could transport over Picard, why didn't raise them when Enterprise started her ramming run? She had plenty of time.

On a closing comment, the Scimitar was more than a little scratched after the ramming.  

 

[Baker]

Hail to the mighty Fedaration  

[Alidar Jarok]

At the time the Tanker was viewed as a Raptor with its wings down

I've heard a comparison of the D-5 to an "upside-down" Raptor

The fact that these ships look similar isn't really that bad.

[Alidar Jarok]

If you say so

What's wrong with refitting a ship to make it a tanker?

[Tremok]

 The tanker and the D5 look plenty different to my eye.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Are you sure the tanker doesn't look like the Raptor with its wings down?

[Tremok]

It seems to me that they have a different neck, wings, nacelles, and head.

I remember seeing both episodes, and there is enough that I can dell the difference.

Perhaps comparing an episode screen vs. episode screen would be better than comparing episode screen vs. graphic.

[Whiplash]

Hey, Rat Boy,

Really nice profiles of the Klink ships. Where did you get them, or did you make them?

W.