Topic: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser  (Read 28902 times)

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Alidar Jarok

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Re: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2003, 09:38:52 am »
Quote:

D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  




Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?

RE: Enterprise class

That's debatable

wanderer

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Re: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2003, 10:30:55 am »
Quote:

Quote:

D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  



Where'd you hear of a Klodode class?




The only place where I have ever seen the 'Klolode Class' is from a non-canon source, "Starship Design" by Starstation Aurora, the same publication that brought us the K'Teremny. There is a picture of a Klingon cruiser from TOS that is labeled a "Klolode Class Battlecruiser". The K'teremny is described as "a further extension of the Raxor/Klolode/K'Tinga warship design."  

Tremok

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Re: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2003, 11:57:04 am »
Quote:



D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  




  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.
 

Karnak

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Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2003, 12:26:56 pm »
I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Karnak »

Alidar Jarok

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Klingon Evil
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2003, 12:39:31 pm »
A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.

Karnak

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Re: Klingon Evil
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2003, 12:44:03 pm »
Quote:

A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  




There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Karnak »

jimmi7769

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Re: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2003, 12:57:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



D7 is Klodode class.  K'tinga is not a D7.  Just like an Enterprise class is not a Constitution class, though they look similar.  




  Tremok says,"interesting" and pulls up favorite search engine.

 Tremok types Klodode class and hits search.

 Tremok gets all of nine hits, all having to do with SFB.

 Tremok thinks 'hmm'.
 




Actually where I got it from was the FASA Star Trek The Role Playing game.  Klingon Ship Recognition manual.
And not SFB.

Alidar Jarok

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2003, 01:23:36 pm »
Quote:



6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.




That's because they did too good of a job.  Self-destruct was disabled (so no victory like ST3).  It did a better job than the BoP in ST6 did.

Quote:

7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.




Some survived and were captured.  Its not my fault that Klingons don't do anything "high-risk"

Here are some

Star Trek 3:
Klingon Bird of Prey captured without a fight

Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.
Chancellor Dead
Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked destroyed

Star Trek 7:
D-12 destroyed due to faulty design

Day of the Dove:
D-7 destroyed because it was emmiting radiation and was a "Hazard"

Karnak

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2003, 01:31:40 pm »
Quote:

Star Trek 6:
Flagship of the Klingon Empire destroyed.




??????

I would hardly call a D7W the flagship of the Empire. The ship was also not destoryed.

Tremok

  • Guest
Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2003, 01:44:32 pm »
I never really pay too much detail to consistent ship references in Trek but more to consistent racial traits.  Notice how whenever an TNG, DS9, ST-movie involve the Klingons there is a lot of damage inflicted on the Feds.

For example:

1)  Star Trek 3:   Klingons lose a BoP and the Feds loses the Enterprise.  The one ship no one could destroy for the last 20 years.

 Forget to mention that the Enterprise was stolen, way undermanned, and not at full combat readiness did you?  

2) Star Trek 6:  Klingon BoP knocks the new Enterprise around really good while fighting both the Enterprise and the Excalibur.

 End result: BoP dead, the Enterprise and Excelsior find and dandy. And while the Excelsior took a few good hits, it wasn't all that damaged.  

3)  Star Trek 9:  Klingons lose another BoP but the Enterprise-D makes a crash landing on Veridian.

 Only because the BoP used Romulan like subterfuge to gets Enterprise's shield frequency. And they still died. And how many torpedoes did it take to kill the BoP? Just one. The Enterprise took several photons and disruptor hits. And then it wouldn't have gone down if not for the lucky last shot plasma manifold hit.  

 

And how convient of you not to mention all the times the Enterprise has whacked Klingon ships upsided they head. DS9 really whooped that Klingon fleet didn't it? Also I must said I was impressed by the way the Defiant went threw Klingon ships like a hot knife through warm butter. Seems to me the Klingons didn't fare to well with the conflict against the Federation in the 2370s.  


4)  In the Dominion War, the Klingons do probably the most damage to the Jem'hdar and at one time had to protect the whole Federation cuz only their ships could repel Breen weaponry.

 Whatever. Show me a source that the Klingons did the best against the Jem'hadar. We DO know they did take the most casualties of the war.

And yes, they way the Klingons engineered their vessels made them immune to the Breen weapon, and they had hold the line until the Federation and Romulans had a time to refit. And Gowron handle it so poorly they have to overthrow him and get a new Chancellor.

Are you trying to make a point that Klingon engineering is superior to the Federations or Klingons or somesuch?

Edit: Also forgot about that Klingon fleet that went to Breen space and never returned.  


5) Klingons easily capture Captain Archer and put him on trial even if the D5 was blinded.

 That is a bit of an arrogant statemnent. We don't know if it was easy or not, since we don't know how they did it.

And you forgot to mention the part where the Enterprise DEFEATED the D5. It is true that the NX is not a match for Klingon ships of this period, and wasn't the equal of the D5. The Enterprise crew used their heads and what they had available to them to beat the D5 fair and square. They could of destroyed her if they wished, it was said so in the episode.    


Basically, the Klingons don't have a vaunted warrior tradition for nothing. Any race that fights them will get knocked around real good.  Trading BoPs for Fed CAs and DNs sounds like a good trade to me.  

Oh yeah, let's not forget the poor Rommie weasels that are too afraid to fight in the open.  When they do it's a disaster:

 Lets see. As you mentioned above,

1. Klingon ships beats up a stolen, undermanned and underpowered Enterprise.

2. Klingons use fire while cloak technology to attack Enterprise and the Excelsior. Klingon looses anyway.

2. Klingon uses subterfuge to find Enterprises shield frequency. Klingons loose anyway. (the Klingons all died, the Enterprise crew didn't).

See, its your very own Klingons that are using the cowardly subterfuge and cloak and daggar!  


6)  Star Trek 10:  Scimitar dead, 2xValdores dead, Fed DN still lives.

 Not because the three DNs bested the Scimitar in combat. Not all all, the Scimitar still had 70 percent shield strength when all the ships where disabled. The Scimitar died because Shinzon was stupid. Lets see,

1. He pulls up right in front of the Enterprise.

2. He keeps his cloak off.

3. He is so kind to even keep his shields off.

4. When the Enterprises starts comming to him, does he open fire with his weapons trying to knock out the impluse engines? No. Does he try to simply blow the ship to pieces when he realized he doesn't have time to disable her? No. Did he even try to lock on a tractor beam to keep the Enterprise away? No. He just stood there and let the Enterprise ram him.

And the two Valdores weren't killed. Severely damaged, yes, like the Enterprise was, but not killed.  


7)  D9 Episode where Roms/Cardies attack Dominion homeworld:  All Roms are dead.

 That was the Tal Shiar acting on their own. And it was a trap in the first place. Besides, the Dominion was beating around everyone at that time.

Nice of you  not to mention the Federation/Klingons would of lost the war if not for the Romulan entrance.  


9)  TOS "Balance of Terror":  Scratch one war-bird.

 The BoP probably wasn't as good of a ship as the Constitution. Even so, Kirk respected the Romulans and their ship.  
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tremok »

Tremok

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Re: Klingon Evil
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2003, 01:53:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

A cloaked ship destroys a Klingon ship and they assume it had to be a Klingon who killed his own people, instead of assuming the Romulans were behind it.

Some honorable people.

Kill their own and nobody doubts it.  




There are good Klingons and there are bad Klingons. Just like there are good Feds and bad Feds who collaborated with General Chang in Star Trek 6.

Adding to Klingon power list:

DS9 Way of the Warrior episodes:  Klingon Empire only needs to use 1/3 of their military, including lotsa vor'cha BCHs,  on an extended supply line to single-handedly put the Cardies back in the stone-age.  No wonder the Dominion so easiy manipulatied the spoon-heads.




 Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tremok »

Alidar Jarok

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2003, 02:12:58 pm »
The Qo'onos one wasn't the flag ship?

You might be right about it not being destroyed.

But it was the only ship to loose artificial gravity

Karnak

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2003, 02:23:48 pm »
Quote:

Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?




Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.  How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  Colonel Luvok changeling and the 4 changelings on Earth got away.;)  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.

Tremok

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2003, 02:32:55 pm »
Quote:

Almost as easily as the they did the Klingons huh (capturing Martok and replacing him with a changeling)?




Oooh, you are on very shaky ground here.  You mean like how the Tal Shiar Colonel Luvok was replaced by a changeling and sent the vaunted Tal Shiar to its doom.

 Good. I don't like the Tal Shiar.  

 How about the 4 changelings that held Earth hostage with sabatoge strikes?

 The Dominion was manipulating everyone. Cardassians, Federation, Romulans, Klingon.

I wouldn't say "No wonder they Cardassians where so easily manipulated" when they where manipulating everyone.  


Klingons fried their changeling imposter, BTW.  

 Thanks to the help of the Federation.  

As for the amazement that Chang's BoP got beaten by the Enterprise and the Excalibur in Star Trek 6.  Yeah, I agree. If the Feds had used only a couple of regular CAs they would have been trashed big time, LOL.  I guess those BoPs are real trouble makers, hehe.  

 Considering it was the Enterprise that defeated Chang. Once that torpedo struck home it was finished. All the Excelsior did was maybe take a few extra hits for the Enterprise and quicken the destruction of the BoP.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tremok »

Alidar Jarok

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2003, 02:40:33 pm »
Target that explosion and fire  

Tremok

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2003, 02:46:42 pm »
  Tremok enjoys the pretty explosion    

La'ra

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2003, 03:31:12 pm »
Balance of Terror:  Constitutions-class vessel destroys the pride of the Romulan fleet in a running fight.  Final tally: One Warbird gone, one fatality aboard Enterprise.

The Deadly Years:  An estimated ten Romulan warships don't manage to destroy the same Constitution-class starship despite her being commanded by an officer highly inexperienced in space combat.

The Enterprise Incident:  Three Romulan vessels of a design considered roughly equal to a Constituion-class are outmanuevered by a single Federation ship which steals a cloaking device and gets away clean.

The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

I can probably find more, but it makes little difference.  Romulans have never been portrayed as an enemy as difficult to conquer as the Klingons, and judging from their reliance on skullduggery and ridiculous plots they're too weak to sustain a conflict with either the Federation or the Klingon Empire.

The Klingons, by contrast, did rather well against the Federation despite a few 'featured on Deep Space Nine' losses.  Afterward, they still had plenty left to hold the line and were pivotal in several Alliance victories versus the Gamma Quadrant invaders.  Also, in several 'alternate history' episodes we've seen, the Romulan Empire was subjugated by the Klingons....

In any case, it's kind of a silly thing to be arguing about.  Go read some of my fanfic if you like Klingons and some of Jaeih's or Sethans if you like Rommies.  Most of the people on that board are very good at capturing the flavor of their favorite Empires.  

Tremok

  • Guest
Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2003, 03:57:16 pm »
 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.

Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).  Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance.

I could comment that I wouldn't confuse the failures of Romulan subterfuge plans (most of the Romulan failures you mentioned) to mean they are weak. Those plans had the potential to bringe great rewards for the Empire, but didn't work out. Well, what did the loose in trying? But when Romulans DO fight, I believe they have shown themselves as formidable.

 But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.  

I personally think that  all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, they just different styles, advantages, and disadvantages.

 
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Tremok »

La'ra

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Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2003, 04:32:17 pm »
Quote:

 Now now, La'ra, I never made any claims that the Romulans where overtly superior to either than the Federation or Klingons.




I realize that, though you do seem to be fond of trumpeting the Rommies praises.  I don't mind.  I love Klingons, after all.

Quote:

Now, I could point out that in The Defector the BoPs where the size of the Enterprise, and the Romulans did manage to flush out the traitors (the orginal plan).




Well, that may've been the overall plan, but Tomalk's ambition to haul the Big E back home as a trophy certaintly didn't, and that did actually seem to be part of the plot.

Quote:

Or the Romulan subterfuge tactics, while rarely work, they very rarely take any losses whatsoever. Passing comments about Romulan fleets beating around Klingon fleets (episode when Troi was playing Tal Shiar officer), that the Romulans couldn't contest Bajor because Bajor was on one side of the Federation and Romulan Empire on the other,  the comment Picard made that the only thing that contained the Romulans was the Klingon-Federation alliance




I've always found it logical that the reason they rely on subterfuge and such is simply because they don't have the resources to do anything else.  Despite their aggression, they seem loathe to waste ships or manpower...and yet they're cold-blooded enough to destroy three shiploads of their own people to prevent the Federation from having solid evidence of a hostile Romulan act, so I doubt it's concerns for their own soldiers that motivates them.  Romulans seem determined to get their bluff in early...they even build ships made to look bigger by using lots of empty space.

Quote:

But the fact this, all of the Big3 (Fed, Rom, and Kling) is they all have had there shares of successes and failures. The all have there Strengths and weaknesses.




Definitley.  The Federation seems to have a terrifyingly strong economy, lots of high-tech ships, and a large amount of exploitable resources.  The Klingons have an intensley disciplined military force, technology equal to the Feds in some areas and exceeding it in others, and a large fleet composed almost entirley of combat-effective vessels (loved watching Martok's ships scythe through Dominion fighters).  The question is...what exactly do the Romulans have?  Their tech doesn't seem any better than their usual adversaries.  Their intelligence organization was equalled by the Obsidian Order and is no longer as powerful as it was.  They don't seem to have as many ships as either the Klingons or the Federation, and their ships don't seem that much better (excepting the Scimitar, but then I try to pretend Nemesis is non-canon save for the Valdore-class (one WAS destroyed, incidentally) and Dina Meyer in a tight uniform.

I personally think the Romulans are kind of a 'middle ground' Empire.  They don't have the greatest of anything, but their weaknesser, save perhaps for their arrogance which we've routinley seen exploited, are also minor.  With the exception of a lack of resources, perhaps, which would explain their tactics and their desire to expand.

Quote:

I personally think, more or less, all of the Big 3 empires are more less equal to one another, just different styles.    




Guess that's why they're the big three.  Know what I'd have loved to see?  A conflict between the Cardassians and the Romulans.  In some ways they're very similar, though the Cardies seem to have a meaner edge to them.    

Alidar Jarok

  • Guest
Re: Klingons Rule :D
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2003, 04:54:54 pm »
The Defector:  Two Romulan D'deridex-class vessels back down in the face of one Galaxy-class and three unidentified Bird of Prey types (Probably K'vort-class, much smaller than the D'Deridex.

You wish

They were the size of a Negh'Var, minimum.  They could have as big as a Warbird


Klingon Civil War episodes (titled unremembered): Romulan task force refuses to fight Federation battle group when detected, despite the possibility of a Klingon Empire friendly to Romulan interests if the mission succeeds.

Redemtion

This is because of international politics.  The Romulans didn't want war, just to do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted


Unification Parts 1 & 2:  Klingon vessel penetrates Romulan space as far as their capital without being detected.  Romulans attempt quick take over of Vulcan, but destroy their own assault force when confronted with a single Galaxy-class starship.

They destoyed their evidence.

That evidence would have been an international embarassment (just like the forged evidence of a Dominion invasion


Deep Space Nine (episode unknown):  Faced with the prospect of fighting the Federation fleet, Romulans remove weapons stockpile on Bajoran moon.

Another international politics thing.

The Romulans were willing to sacrifice something they wanted for personal gains when they saw it was not worth a war against their allies

Anyway

The United Federation of Planets, The Romulan Star Empire, and the Klingon Empire have been shown to have relatively equal militaries

The Klingons have a weaker economy

The Cardassians have inferior ships and, IMO, a weaker economy (at least after the war)

The Dominion is superior to the Federation in every way.

The Ferengi have ships on par with the Federation and Romulans (or, at least they did at the begining of the series.  The Suliban remind me alot of the Ferengi)
Their economy seems pretty good.
They don't seem as interested in international politics

The Breen are a mystery (very similar to the Gorn of TOS)
Their only advantage appeared to be the energy weapon.
They lack quality shields and have weapons similar to Klingons
Their economy and planet as a whole is unkown

I won't bother mentioning the Borg or 8472

The Kazon are technologically and economically inferior, but they stole some big ships

The Hirogen have made ships that are around the level of the Federation, but they haven't developed infistucture or economy.