Topic: New Klingon ship: The D5 Battlecruiser

[Tremok]

Lets see... what would I do if I were a "smart Shinzon"?
a) I know I will die in minutes without Picard's body.
b)The Enterprise is without any weapons. She cannot hurt me.  
c)My own ship is virtually unscathed and heavily armored.

So what should I do? According to the above, I should:

a) Stay out of transporter range of Enterprise, preventing me from abducting Picard.
b) Stay cloaked, preventing me from abducting Picard.
c)Keep my shileds up, preventing me from abducting Picard.


Add to this the facts that:
a) Shields have NEVER prevented large, massive, solid objects from penetrating them and striking the ship's hull.
b) The Enterprise is a large, massive, solid object.
c) I need Picard's body in order to continue living more than a couple minutes more.
d) Even if Enterprise ramms me, my ship will only get a little scratched, and Enterprise will be devastated.


 You didn't answer my other questions. Did Shinzon try to shoot out the Enterprises impluse engines when she started her run? Nope. Did he try to lock on a tractor beam? Nope. Considering that the Enterprises shields where all but gone, did he try to beam out Picard and simply destory the ship? Nope.

And didn't the Scimitar transport over troops to the Enterprise while she was still cloaked? Or was this after they lost there cloaked?

Also the Enterprise shields stop a large, massive, metal object (a Valdores blown-off wing). Considering how much bigger and more massive the Scimitar is over the Enterprise, having its shields up would of greatly reduced the impact, it not stopped it completely.  Even if he kept he shields down so he could transport over Picard, why didn't raise them when Enterprise started her ramming run? She had plenty of time.

On a closing comment, the Scimitar was more than a little scratched after the ramming.  

 

[Baker]

Hail to the mighty Fedaration  

[Alidar Jarok]

At the time the Tanker was viewed as a Raptor with its wings down

I've heard a comparison of the D-5 to an "upside-down" Raptor

The fact that these ships look similar isn't really that bad.

[Alidar Jarok]

If you say so

What's wrong with refitting a ship to make it a tanker?

[Tremok]

 The tanker and the D5 look plenty different to my eye.    

[Alidar Jarok]

Are you sure the tanker doesn't look like the Raptor with its wings down?

[Tremok]

It seems to me that they have a different neck, wings, nacelles, and head.

I remember seeing both episodes, and there is enough that I can dell the difference.

Perhaps comparing an episode screen vs. episode screen would be better than comparing episode screen vs. graphic.

[Whiplash]

Hey, Rat Boy,

Really nice profiles of the Klink ships. Where did you get them, or did you make them?

W.
 

[Tremok]

 Saw this ship tonight on Enterprise. Tough, mean looking ship. We even saw her in action! Nice treat.

The facts:

*The D5 is capable of warp 6
*The D5 has shields and multiple disruptors
*The D5 has greater combat capability than the NX-01
*The D5 was mentioned on DS9, but we never saw a picture of her.
*The D5, if I recall correctly, was made buy everyones favorite, John Eaves.


I must say, all in all, I like tonights episode. Some great combat scenes.

EDIT: Anyone else catch the Duras easter egg? Nice    

[ChamadaIV]

What's sad is that the D5's disruptors couldn't even disable Enterprise in the first few shots. Sometimes I think the writers should play SFC 1 or 2 for a bit and see just how long a Fed ship can last against a Klingon battlecrusier without its shields up.

They are treating polarized hull plating like its a viable alternative to shields when it shouldn't be. I'm sorry, Archer and Co. should've died tonight before any Klingon tribunal took place.    

[Tremok]

SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
SFC 1&2 had very little to do with Star Trek.

Come now, this is the 2150s, not the 2370s.  Shields might have been something only the big or advance ships during that day. The NX-01 is supposed to be a primitve ship, it be silly to see it running around using transporters, photon torpedoes, or shields.

Saying that the NX-01 couldn't survive a few disruptor hits because it doesn't have shields is like saying a WWII destroyer couldn't survive a Tomahawk hit because it doesn't have CIWS.

Your just unhappy that the Romulan Early BoP is more powerful than your Klingon ships.    

I learned never to underestimate Romulan engineering. How you guys create artificial sigularities that toys with the theories of quantum physics is beyond me.

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise. Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  

[Tremok]

But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:


But the issue isn't with Rom BoPs (Klingon disruptors still rock your world   ), its with Earth's first explorer class starship. Remember the operative word "explorer." With phasers that hardly compare to phaser3s from SFC and (I assume they are antimatter) torpedos that don't come close to photon yields, a D5 should have absolutely no problem with Enterprise.

 Whys that? We know next to nothing about the D5. The NX hull armor has taken many hits from many different types of weapons before. Hull armor might not stop weapons very well in the centuries to come, but in the 2150s it does the job well enough.    

 Do you recall seeing the K'tinga cruisers from earlier in the series? Yeah, disabled NX-01 in a shot if I recall correctly. It wasn't even a fight. Why a D5 couldn't do the same is all I'm asking.  Well, the K'tinga is a bigger,  more advance ship than the D5.

An interesting article about the K'tinga in Enterprise....  Star Trek: The Magazine clears up the issue: "As Rob (Bonchune) explains, John Eaves had designed a new Klingon ship specifically for this scene. 'It was kind of the same shape as the original Klingon battle cruiser; just a little more primitive. [...] They decided it could only be used with major changes, but after their work on Broken Bow the team was simply too exhausted to work through the night in a desperate attempt to get the shots ready. Instead, the producers made the decision to use an old model. 'We wound up going back to a version of the Klingon ship that had been built for DEEP SPACE NINE,' Mitch (Suskin) says. 'But that particular type of Klingon ship will not be used again, because they decided that it just didn't fit into their vision for this universe.' Rob admits that, he for one, is sorry the old ship was used, but acknowledges there was no alternative. 'As a fan I really regret that that ship is in there, but people were just working too much. After Broken Bow, everyone had already worked so much overtime'." - In other words, the K't'inga was not the model we were supposed to see in the episode.        

 



Ok, ok. I can understand the intention that the K'Tingas should've looked more primative, but that's merely an artistic impression of visual appearance. A purely cosmetic issue as far as post-production is concerned. The real beef of the topic is the technical aspect of the D5's weaponry. I no longer have any of my old source materials. If I did, I'd have better insight to how effective Klingon disruptors should be against exposed hull, even in an earlier era (you simply scale down the power output levels to a reasonable point). But even those books couldn't tell me squat about "polarized hull plating."

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 

[Tremok]

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

[Tremok]

 Remember it is said that "He would be conisder a hero of the Empire if he killed those refugees", I doubt bringing them back alive was a concern for Duras.

As for how they got Archer, I don't know. Best I can think of is that Duras beamed him off while the NX was running away.    

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

[Maxillius]

Quote:

Quote:

Besides, Duras' tactical officer noted before the battle that their weapons and defenses were superior to Enterprise's. You don't falsify a sensor reading to your commanding officer, especially when it involves tactical data on a potential enemy.

 You seem to be found of SFC analogies, so lets use one here.

It is true that the D5 had greater combat capabilites, enough so that they didn't consider the NX a real threat.

Lets say you are flying around in a Hawk, and you come across a angry Klingon K'tinga. You in your Hawk will have significantly greater combat capabilites, but you will have to duke it out for awhile before you had the pesky DD beat. To destroy it in a single alpha your going to need something in the area of a Warbird.

So yes, the D5 is a level above the NX in terms of combat capability, but not THAT many levels.    

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL. If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF. If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability and see how long this scenario lasts. This is submitted for your approval (thanks Rod Sterling  ).

As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.      

and make that a FF with 2 phaser 3's and one A rack with slow drones

[Tremok]

A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

[ChamadaIV]

Quote:
A slightly flawed analogy to SFC. Lemme note that the K'tinga in SFC3 is not a DD, more like a CL.

 Excuse me, I had a B'rel at first, but then put in a K'tinga on second thought.  I forgot to change the DD into a CL. However, I do not realise how this typographical error makes my analogy "flawed".  

 If i'm wrong, then I'll shut up and never bring it up again. Oh, and secondly, I'd never touch a Hawk with a ten-foot pole, let alone take on a K'tinga in one, especially one flown by a skilled pilot. I feel much better in a Shirke thank you very much, despite it being a supposedly inferior ship to the Hawk.  

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.     If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic. This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.



As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

EDIT:

Quote:

And am I the only one wondering how they captured Archer?

Simple. The BigE was in Klingon territory and was subsequently surrounded by Klingon cruisers after Duras was beaten, who most likely sent out a distress call of his own after NX-01 made a break for it.

 It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

For your first point, I had assumed you were sure about the K'tinga being a DD. I wasn't aware if your unitentional mistake.

 Alright, though which ship we like best or think better really doesn't matter. I just threw up a quick analogy to give an example.  

Acknowledged, your example was good and it wasn't my place judge it "flawed" like I did. My apologies.

Quote:
Let's go with straight-up SFC2 EAW, shall we? The way I saw the incident in tonight's episode would equate better along the lines of a regular Klingon CL vs. a normal Fed FF.  The isn't that big of a difference. Both the ships are about the same size, and the NX, though outclass, did put up a reasonable defence.  

Sure there's a big difference. An explorer class vs. a battlecruiser. Hmmm...let me see. One is built for science and exploration, the other made to kick ass in combat. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Quote:

 If you think there's no contest there, let's have the FF fight with no shield capability  Huh, why would you do that? Assuming that one ship should go threw another shieldless ship like tissue paper simple because ships hundreds of years in the future crack like eggs without shields is flawed logic.

No, the flawed logic rests in the show itself. How come there is never a mentioning of polarized hulls in any previous Trek series? Why do ships go down so easily in the future when the shields are compromised? Why should hull reinforcement technology degrade over time? That's the flawed logic IMO.

Quote:
This isn't hundreds of years into the future, this is now, in 2152. The NX-01 has taken plenty of weapons fire, and it has held up well enough. Today it just took a few more disruptor blast without folding. Like it or not, polarized hull plating protects the ship well enough in this time period.     and see how long this scenario lasts.

2152. Exactly. No Federation. Earth is barely 100 years post WW III and Warp 5 is new to humans. Whereas the Klinks are a primarily warrior race well aware of the Roms and their dangerous technologies and have tinkered with starships and warp drives longer than Earth has. I stand by my conclusion: the fact that the NX-01 survived that battle against Duras was because of the pathetic deus ex machina know as polarized hull plating. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.  

Quote:
As for your point about the Warbird alpha strike, I think a Raptor would do just as well if not better, imo.    

 Uh, ok...

Don't deny it, you know its true. You be a fool to underestimate the Raptor. Pre-patch, warbirds were trash in comparison. Even now, Raptors still kick mighty butt. Or do you doubt the power of the mighty Romulan Empire?   You do bear its insignia after all.

Quote:
It is stated in the episode that they where already at the edge of Klingon territory if not outside it, and the Klingons would of boarded the ship and taken everyone prisoner if not destorying the ship outright. They wouldn't just take the captain and let the rest if the ship (plus the refugees) run free.  

A good point. You just have to accept the outcome as they gave it to us tonight. The transporter thing is a viable conclusion; while the NX-01 made off with the refugees, Archer was beamed over by Duras. Amazing Duras didn't kill him on the spot...