Topic: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab  (Read 19034 times)

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Online Nemesis

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Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« on: June 10, 2008, 09:57:00 pm »
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Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski of Michigan State University in East Lansing, US, took a single Escherichia coli bacterium and used its descendants to found 12 laboratory populations.

The 12 have been growing ever since, gradually accumulating mutations and evolving for more than 44,000 generations, while Lenski watches what happens.


Quote
But sometime around the 31,500th generation, something dramatic happened in just one of the populations – the bacteria suddenly acquired the ability to metabolise citrate, a second nutrient in their culture medium that E. coli normally cannot use.


Quote
To find out which, Lenski turned to his freezer, where he had saved samples of each population every 500 generations. These allowed him to replay history from any starting point he chose, by reviving the bacteria and letting evolution "replay" again.


Quote
The replays showed that even when he looked at trillions of cells, only the original population re-evolved Cit+ – and only when he started the replay from generation 20,000 or greater. Something, he concluded, must have happened around generation 20,000 that laid the groundwork for Cit+ to later evolve.


Quote
Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists, notes Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago. "The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events," he says. "That's just what creationists say can't happen."


It will be interesting to see what the mutations were that ended with this effect. 
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 10:14:29 pm »
I wonder if within another 30 or 40 thousand generations, they'll be able to play basic poker.

But seriously, this is one huge step in understanding the evolutionary process.  And who knows, it could even provide insight into making some treatments or vaccines for certain illnesses and diseases.

Just a thought.
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 10:19:21 pm »
Get one to develop into a multi-celled orgnanism and you'll have something.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 10:24:53 pm »
Get one to develop into a multi-celled orgnanism and you'll have something.

 Well If the time line is roughly the same,check back again, in about 500,000,000 years or so. ;D

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 10:42:02 pm »
Get one to develop into a multi-celled orgnanism and you'll have something.

 Well If the time line is roughly the same,check back again, in about 500,000,000 years or so. ;D

Unfortunately, I'll still be around by then, and I still wouldn't have gotten any.  Oh well.
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 06:48:20 am »
Three words:

Nevada Road Trip
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 07:59:57 am »
In time, when I finally have the budget (;)) with ultra-high-resolution-spectroscopic-magnetic-resonance-imaging I could show you movies of it at the molecular scale in real time. We have the processing power available now, we did not when I conceived of the idea fourteen years ago. Storage capacities are getting there too. Evolutionary biology always comes down to chemistry for me, because it is.

To truly understand this, we need to SEE it. What proteins? What RNA/DNA? Mechanisms of the actual mutations? I have no doubts about evolution, I live it. I'd like to visualise molecular biology with modern instrumentation of my own design. THen we could build a base of knowledge for a better understanding of the molecular mechanisms of evolution.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 08:08:55 am »
Bonk, the university I work at is suppose to be selling an electron microscope in the surplus sale today, would you need one?
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 08:20:16 am »
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Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski of Michigan State University in East Lansing, US, took a single Escherichia coli bacterium and used its descendants to found 12 laboratory populations.

The 12 have been growing ever since, gradually accumulating mutations and evolving for more than 44,000 generations, while Lenski watches what happens.

 


I would never have the patience to do something like that.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 08:39:57 am »
Bonk, the university I work at is suppose to be selling an electron microscope in the surplus sale today, would you need one?

Interesting, but no. I just need about 2.5Mil to get started, lol! Actually, 250K would get me started...

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 11:13:00 am »
Three words:

Nevada Road Trip

Does that mean you'll give me a non-recourse loan for about 10 grand?   :)
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2008, 09:14:44 pm »
Get one to develop into a multi-celled orgnanism and you'll have something.

 Well If the time line is roughly the same,check back again, in about 500,000,000 years or so. ;D

That has always been my beef with macro evolution... lets say that the average "major" mutation (that would move it after a while to a new species) was 1/4 as many generations...  In animals that have 20 year generations (or even 10) how do you get major changes?  The earth just isn't old enough to get all the changes in needed, especially when you work in all the Near extinction events that often reset the clock.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 09:46:58 pm »
Get one to develop into a multi-celled orgnanism and you'll have something.

 Well If the time line is roughly the same,check back again, in about 500,000,000 years or so. ;D

That has always been my beef with macro evolution... lets say that the average "major" mutation (that would move it after a while to a new species) was 1/4 as many generations...  In animals that have 20 year generations (or even 10) how do you get major changes?  The earth just isn't old enough to get all the changes in needed, especially when you work in all the Near extinction events that often reset the clock.

GE-Raven


 I have wondered the same myself.

Offline Dracho

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2008, 10:53:21 pm »
If you notice, evolution seems to explode after mass extinction events.  I personally think open niches in the food chain is what turns evolution's accelerated mode on and off.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 08:18:15 am »
If you notice, evolution seems to explode after mass extinction events. I personally think open niches in the food chain is what turns evolution's accelerated mode on and off.

From the bottleneck evolutionary type.  Seriously, it's called the bottleneck, it's when a mutation comes from a small group, or there's a huge death amongst the group and the smaller group that survives has some mutative quality that allows it to survive when all the others die off.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 04:07:46 pm »
E. Coli.... isn't that the bacteria that normally resides in everyones butts, causes fart gas, and also causes food poisoning outbreaks when some git can't be arsed to wash their hands after using the toilets.

So.... this means that someone's butt is hosting what could be the progenators of an advanced civillisation that will rule the universe in a few million year's time.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 05:06:36 pm »
E. Coli.... isn't that the bacteria that normally resides in everyones butts, causes fart gas, and also causes food poisoning outbreaks when some git can't be arsed to wash their hands after using the toilets.

So.... this means that someone's butt is hosting what could be the progenators of an advanced civillisation that will rule the universe in a few million year's time.



Actually E.Coli isn't the one that lives in your butt.  But is mostly everywhere but not in much quantity, 'til it finds some good food.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 05:37:50 pm »
I'm no evolutionary scientist but as I understand it evolution tends to occur fastest in populations that are under stress.  In other words in an environment with a relatively high mortality rate or low rate of reproduction. 

These bacteria are kept in an idealized environment, nothing to stress them and drive evolution. 

It would be interesting if someone were to reproduce the experiment but with double the number of samples and then have 1/2 of the samples meet temperature changes, varying food types and quantities over time and perhaps a predatory species.  Would it evolve more as evolutionary theories would seem to predict than the "control" colonies or not?
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 04:57:27 pm »
So with the stress caused by the cost of oil and gas.... is the human race about to evolve.... ::)

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 06:39:15 pm »
So with the stress caused by the cost of oil and gas.... is the human race about to evolve.... ::)



Look at George W.  That should be a prime example that in some cases, the human race is de-evolving.

 ;D
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 09:05:08 pm »
!!  HINT  !!
[/color]

I would rather not have this thread be moved to Hot and Spicy.  Be nice guys.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 02:02:23 pm »
There is "Mellanistic" change, where a species rapdily changes over a limited number of generations, to adapt to an evioronment.

This was observed by a Mr. Mellan a decade or so before Darwin started work on his theories and it was observed how in Glasgow the normally grey Pepper Moth had evolved in just over 100 years into a black feather version that exactly matched the sot covered dirty stonework in the city.

Darwin used Mellan's work as part of his arguments in his "Origins of the Species" as a prime example of adaptaion.

Perhaps the bacteria adapted to utilise the netrient in a Mellanistic way.

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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 07:38:57 pm »
!!  HINT  !!
[/color]

I would rather not have this thread be moved to Hot and Spicy.  Be nice guys.

We're being nice.  *plugs Nemesis into a morphine drip*   ;D
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Offline Dracho

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 01:20:48 am »
So with the stress caused by the cost of oil and gas.... is the human race about to evolve.... ::)



What's to evolve?  ever hear of horses?  I knew that buggy whip manufacturer stock would a long-term hold.. I just knew it.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2008, 03:21:28 pm »
So with the stress caused by the cost of oil and gas.... is the human race about to evolve.... ::)



What's to evolve?  ever hear of horses?  I knew that buggy whip manufacturer stock would a long-term hold.. I just knew it.

Ooooo, whips.  *gets ideas*
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2008, 05:56:05 pm »
I don't think you need ideas, from what I've read, you probably need a straight jacket, not ideas.  ;)  No offense. Beshides, all this evolution crap is false, unless it's micro evolution, then it's true.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2008, 08:12:40 pm »
Beshides, all this evolution crap is false, unless it's micro evolution, then it's true.

You base this on what scientific facts precisely? 

How do you define micro vs macro evolution?
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2008, 05:38:18 am »
I don't think you need ideas, from what I've read, you probably need a straight jacket, not ideas.  ;)  No offense. Beshides, all this evolution crap is false, unless it's micro evolution, then it's true.

And what makes you think that everyone else here on D.net hasn't already tried a straight jacket on me?  I've got several walk in closets full of straight jackets from practically everyone here on these boards.  Those that really like me tend to get me 3 or 4. 

What can I say, I'm probably the only human being banned from mental institutions.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2008, 09:34:28 am »
Macro is a change of one species to another, do you see that happenening now a days? THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MONKEYS IF IT WAS TRUE! Micro is changes in one species to suit it to current lifestyle and threats, example, the six-linned skinks in my backyard have long legs while the ones in my frontyard have shorter ones, there are more trees up front, which means they have those legs because they don't need to run far to get to cover, while the ones in the back run very fast to get away from predators (and collectors). Also, why didn't I think of this yesterday, we should create a mental hospital just for people like you Centurus. WE really don't need you loose and causing mayham in the world. ;)
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2008, 09:41:20 am »
Macro is a change of one species to another, do you see that happenening now a days? THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MONKEYS IF IT WAS TRUE! Micro is changes in one species to suit it to current lifestyle and threats, example, the six-linned skinks in my backyard have long legs while the ones in my frontyard have shorter ones, there are more trees up front, which means they have those legs because they don't need to run far to get to cover, while the ones in the back run very fast to get away from predators (and collectors). Also, why didn't I think of this yesterday, we should create a mental hospital just for people like you Centurus. WE really don't need you loose and causing mayham in the world. ;)

My God, I should have known smacking someone so young with my rubber chickens would have caused serious brain damage.  But, you're new to this place, so I'll give ya a break.

*puts his arm around the young spartan, then points over to a building in the far corner*  See that building?  She's got 15 floors, state of the art facilities, and the best of the best of the best doctors and staff in the universe.  Everyone here on D.net dug deep into their pockets till it hurt, then they dug further, just to have that facility built.  They all then ganged up on me and dragged me into it.  I was to be the first, and sole patient that mental institution would have.

In under one day, half the staff quit (or were vaporized when they had to do my laundry, who knows), and the other half committed themselves to the asylum the next day.  But only after they kicked me out and banned me.

Since then, they just let me roam free as nature intended.  I think they feel I'm less of a threat being a free ranged nutcase rather than a caged nutcase.

*smacks Spartan-039 with a rubber chicken and turns him into Screech from Saved By The Bell*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2008, 09:47:58 am »
NO!!!!!!!! Stop smacking me with rubber chickens! *starts running laround like a scared little girl, then gets an axe*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2008, 09:51:28 am »
NO!!!!!!!! Stop smacking me with rubber chickens! *starts running laround like a scared little girl, then gets an axe*

*grabs the axe and has Hugh Jackman put curlers in Spartan's hair*  Thanks for the axe.  I've had something stuck between my molars since last night, and my usual toothpicking devices such as my most jagged piece of hull plating or my sharpest letter opener didn't get it out.  Maybe the axe will help.

Mental note.  Buy new letter opener.

*uses the axe to pick his teeth and finally picks out the piece of food from between his upper left molars*  Damn popcorn.

*sends Hugh Jackman away, uses the powers of his rubber chickens to turn Spartan back to normal, then hangs upside down in mid air and swings back and forth as he looks around*

Ummm...you want the axe back?
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2008, 09:54:01 am »
*takes the axe back, looks at it* Gross, it'xs got slobber all over it, oh well, I didn't like it anyway. I got twenty more where that came from.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2008, 09:58:14 am »
*takes the axe back, looks at it* Gross, it'xs got slobber all over it, oh well, I didn't like it anyway. I got twenty more where that came from.

Ummm....you had twenty more.  My rubber chickens like to have a morning snack.  Makes them less grumpy.  Especially since it's a couple months before Borg harvesting season.  They love Borg.  Their favorite dish.

I can replace the axes for you, but it'll be a couple months.  But I do have 20 cases of those little plastic gavels that make a noise when you slam it down.  They come in various colors.

If the plastic gavels aren't your thing, I've got a box of spoons.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2008, 10:00:03 am »
Well, to be fair to Nemesis, and because the Fonz says it's the right thing to do, I believe we should get this thread back on track.

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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2008, 10:06:19 am »
Can I join on the Borg hunt? I want to blow tthe Borg into little itty-biity peices, that's why I'm holding a combat shotgun in my lap. Now at least I have one guin that the chickens of doom can't eat.*picks up the barrel drum for the shotgun and puts it in with a satisfying clank* Now, where was I...............Oh yes, Nemesis, you wanted the difference between micro evolution and macro evoluotion, I had posted before, but here it is, micro are minor changes in a species while macro is the change of one species to another.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2008, 10:08:47 am »
Can I join on the Borg hunt? I want to blow tthe Borg into little itty-biity peices, that's why I'm holding a combat shotgun in my lap. Now at least I have one guin that the chickens of doom can't eat.*picks up the barrel drum for the shotgun and puts it in with a satisfying clank* Now, where was I...............Oh yes, Nemesis, you wanted the difference between micro evolution and macro evoluotion, I had posted before, but here it is, micro are minor changes in a species while macro is the change of one species to another.

*grabs the shotgun and cooks it and puts A-1 sauce on it*  Oh, there are no more Borg to hunt.  I have to breed them these days cause my rubber chickens ate them all.  So I breed free range Borg, so they have a continuous supply.

The pen is truly mightier than the sword.  And considerably easier to write with.


Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2008, 10:17:58 am »
I still got the shotgun, you can never have it!!!! * takes the gun and runs for the hills* Beshides, you grabbed the rubber gun, and, frre-range Borg? Perhaps we should let some run rampant and start the hunt again.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2008, 10:32:45 am »
I still got the shotgun, you can never have it!!!! * takes the gun and runs for the hills* Beshides, you grabbed the rubber gun, and, frre-range Borg? Perhaps we should let some run rampant and start the hunt again.

Actually, I ate your shotgun.  Not very tasty, nor was it of good quality.  The shotgun you are running away with I bought at that Pirates of the Caribbean store at Disneyland.

And I can't let my Borg loose.  Farming them is the only way I can make sure my rubber chickens don't eat them all.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2008, 10:36:40 am »
*lookks at his shotgun, test fires, and sees it's a fake. Spartan becomes annoyed* Ok, don't let em loose, just let me shoot at one, just keep those rubber chickens in line.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2008, 11:01:34 am »
Macro is a change of one species to another, do you see that happenening now a days?

Just checking the definitions you are useing.

Considering that speciation takes many generation in most circumstances such an event is only likely to be directly observed in fast reproducing species.

THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY MONKEYS IF IT WAS TRUE!

This demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge of the Theory of Evolution.

1/ Humans are not evolved from monkeys but share a common ancestor with monkeys and apes according to evolutionary theory. (See 2/ below).

2/ When one species evolves from another that does not mean the orignal species goes extinct.  (See 3/ below)

Micro is changes in one species to suit it to current lifestyle and threats, example, the six-linned skinks in my backyard have long legs while the ones in my frontyard have shorter ones, there are more trees up front, which means they have those legs because they don't need to run far to get to cover, while the ones in the back run very fast to get away from predators (and collectors).

3/ The bacteria in the experiment that led to this thread have evolved into a new species.  They can be put into an environment where the original species would die of starvation and still thrive as they can digest food that none of the original species can. This separates them from the original species and the 11 other populations maintained in the experiment.  Note that their having evolved into a new species did not cause the original species elsewhere to go extinct.  (See 2/ above)

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2008, 11:04:30 am »
I still doubt it, perhaps it's just a new variety of the species that's sutied to the new enviornment.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2008, 11:13:08 am »
I still doubt it, perhaps it's just a new variety of the species that's sutied to the new enviornment.

Which is one way that species is defined. 
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2008, 12:06:40 pm »
A species is like the only one of it's kind, an example would be a tiger, but there are different variations in the species that differ from regions. There are Bengal tigers, Caspian tigers, so on, so forth. Another example would be anoles, there's one main species, but there are many diffrenent variations of that anole that may include size, color, and perhaps the body structure.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2008, 06:21:24 pm »
The "fight or flight" instict may have some effect on the human race's evoulution, in some parts of the world.

For instance, the Gauls and Franks were a warrior race, thousands of years ago, who fought a lot with each other or other tribal races.

Now those with big balls would be more inclined to fight, and run the probable risk of death in battle, where as those who were less well endowed would chose to run away as fast as their legs would carry them, probally aided by the lack of sizable gonads.

This is why the most likely survivors of ancient Gaul and Frankish battles were the only ones around to pass on their genes, hence why their decendants, the modern Frenchman, are the genitalia empoverished rifle dropping surrender bunnies that we know them as today. ::)

A prime example of how the "coward" gene propgates and spreads over the generations.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2008, 07:47:10 pm »
Too bad the race of Spartans that were in the world have died out, we could use them now a days, I consider myself a Spartan, I'm desended from a Spartan king.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2008, 11:14:40 pm »
Too bad the race of Spartans that were in the world have died out, we could use them now a days, I consider myself a Spartan, I'm desended from a Spartan king.

RPG doesn't count.  ::)
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2008, 11:42:52 pm »
Too bad the race of Spartans that were in the world have died out, we could use them now a days

The Spartans had a policy of state sponsored pedophilia.  At the age of 12 a Spartan boy would be paired off with a man in his mid 20s.  This man would serve as a combination mentor and lover.  Because of this, Spartan men had a hard time getting it up when they entered into their arranged marriages, so it became tradition for the bride to shave her head, and dress like a young boy on her wedding night.  Sparta declined because it was unable to maintain its population.  Do you really want our society to be like that?  Also, Sparta was a police state that was based on a massive population of slaves known as Helots.  There are a lot of unsavory aspects to Spartan society that were not featured in the film 300.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2008, 11:51:23 pm »
Don't forget that Sparta had one of the earliest eugenics practices in history.  Spartans were expressly forbidden to ever marry outsiders.  Spartan women could only marry Spartan men, and vice versa.

In addition, only the healthiest babies were allowed to survive.  If a baby was born with any defects, including being small I believe, they were left in the mountains to die of the elements, and predators.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2008, 11:52:22 pm »
Too bad the race of Spartans that were in the world have died out, we could use them now a days, I consider myself a Spartan, I'm desended from a Spartan king.

The Spartans had a policy of state sponsored pedophilia.  At the age of 12 a Spartan boy would be paired off with a man in his mid 20s.  This man would serve as a combination mentor and lover.  Because of this, Spartan men had a hard time getting it up when they entered into their arranged marriages, so it became tradition for the bride to shave her head, and dress like a young boy on her wedding night.  Sparta declined because it was unable to maintain its population.  Do you really want our society to be like that?

Actually, Thebes kicked the crap out of them at the battle of Leuctra.  Sparta never recovered.  Unfortunately for Thebes, their victory was short-lived as this guy named Philip of Macedon came down and kicked their a$$es.  He was providing a little on-the-job-training for his son Alexander.

About 200 years later these guys from Italy showed up at place called Pydna and taught the Macedonians about combat engineering and the merits of a small sword & a big shield.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2008, 11:55:42 pm »

Actually, Thebes kicked the crap out of them at the battle of Leuctra.  Sparta never recovered.

The Spartans had been suffering from a declining birth rate long before that, which is one of the factors that made the defeat possible.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2008, 11:58:10 pm »

In addition, only the healthiest babies were allowed to survive.  If a baby was born with any defects, including being small I believe, they were left in the mountains to die of the elements, and predators.

I wouldn't really criticize the Spartans for this because that was a common practice for dealing with unwanted children in ancient Greece.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2008, 12:03:48 am »

Actually, Thebes kicked the crap out of them at the battle of Leuctra.  Sparta never recovered.

The Spartans had been suffering from a declining birth rate long before that.

That could well be, but they outnumbered the Thebians at Leuctra, but were flat out-generaled.  the Thebians broke from Greek tradition and deployed an oblique infantry attack against the Spartan front and smashed their flank with a 50-deep line of infantry, which had never been done before (Greek Phalanx's were typically 12 deep).
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2008, 12:12:00 am »

Actually, Thebes kicked the crap out of them at the battle of Leuctra.  Sparta never recovered.

The Spartans had been suffering from a declining birth rate long before that.

That could well be, but they outnumbered the Thebians at Leuctra, but were flat out-generaled.  the Thebians broke from Greek tradition and deployed an oblique infantry attack against the Spartan front and smashed their flank with a 50-deep line of infantry, which had never been done before (Greek Phalanx's were typically 12 deep).

As I understand it, as the Spartan population declined the army was forced to rely more heavily on slaves so while they could still field armies, they overall training quality was not as high.  So the declining birthrate was a factor in Sparta's downfall.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 12:27:42 am by knightstorm »

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2008, 05:46:30 am »

In addition, only the healthiest babies were allowed to survive.  If a baby was born with any defects, including being small I believe, they were left in the mountains to die of the elements, and predators.

I wouldn't really criticize the Spartans for this because that was a common practice for dealing with unwanted children in ancient Greece.

Actually, that is the least likely reason they had for the practice.  They believed in the strongest and fittest, and felt that any child that was short of those expectations weren't strong or suitable for survival.  That's why for a great deal of time in their history, they were known as probably the strongest and most fierce warriors of their time. 
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2008, 08:17:29 am »
You're right about that. When the 300 Spartans held off the Persian army at Thermopyle, they thought they had trouble with only 300, try 10,000 later on, not so good. Also, Spartan boys weere taken at age 7, not 12. I also  kinda of favor what the Spartans did to those children to small or physically unfit, they would severly hamper the population with a burden of useless people, such as mentally retarded children, they can do nothing to help, so they would be "discarded" . But still, Spartans were the fiersest warriors the world has ever seen. Period.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2008, 09:01:48 am »
The "fight or flight" instict may have some effect on the human race's evoulution, in some parts of the world.

For instance, the Gauls and Franks were a warrior race, thousands of years ago, who fought a lot with each other or other tribal races.

Now those with big balls would be more inclined to fight, and run the probable risk of death in battle, where as those who were less well endowed would chose to run away as fast as their legs would carry them, probally aided by the lack of sizable gonads.

I don't think that this is plausible as every race in the world today is descended from warring tribes.  Would  you say the Scots, Irish or English don't have fighting genes?  They have been on the recieving end of invasions since before the Romans and still they are fighters when they need to be.  As are their descendents in other parts of the world such as North America. 
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2008, 11:09:09 am »
Is it mean to ask someone to not be "on my side?"

To answer Nem's previous question.  I have no doubt that species often evolve in a manner to help them get an edge in their environment.  However it is the "leaps" that seperate "micro" from "macro" evolution.

You know adding an eye, or other organs.  Vast changes in body structure.  That kind of thing.  All the "missing links" in the artifact record that would clear things up. 

In short micro evolution has often been found in the world and in labs.  However it also tends to outline (showing the number of generations needed for it to occur and become dominant) a timescale for large changes to be so incredibly long that movement at the Genus/Species (Not to mention Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family) level would take so long as to preclude functional "macro" evolution.

To my knowledge this has long been one of the BIG questions in evolution.

We have no evidence that any animal has ever "jumped" at the upper levels, and without evidence... well all you have is faith.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2008, 11:21:31 am »
In short micro evolution has often been found in the world and in labs.  However it also tends to outline (showing the number of generations needed for it to occur and become dominant) a timescale for large changes to be so incredibly long that movement at the Genus/Species (Not to mention Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family) level would take so long as to preclude functional "macro" evolution.

To my knowledge this has long been one of the BIG questions in evolution.

We have no evidence that any animal has ever "jumped" at the upper levels, and without evidence... well all you have is faith.

GE-Raven


There is a bit more than "faith".  Evolutionary theory has been used to make predictions of fossils that would be found.  Then combined with geological theories predicted where those fossils would be found and went there and dug them up.  In this case for example they did exactly that.  It wasn't faith that led them to find that fossil it was a valid test of the "Theory of Evolution", a test that it passed.  In doing so evidence for what you are defining as macro evolution was found.  Evidence of that "jump" that you deny there being evidence of.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2008, 12:07:06 pm »
You're right about that. When the 300 Spartans held off the Persian army at Thermopyle, they thought they had trouble with only 300, try 10,000 later on, not so good. Also, Spartan boys weere taken at age 7, not 12. I also  kinda of favor what the Spartans did to those children to small or physically unfit, they would severly hamper the population with a burden of useless people, such as mentally retarded children, they can do nothing to help, so they would be "discarded" . But still, Spartans were the fiersest warriors the world has ever seen. Period.

They had to be.  They were the only Greeks to hold other Greeks as slaves (the Helots).  Spartans spent a good deal of their time keeping the Helots "in line" and they had to be fierce.  If they weren't, they'd likely wake up dead.

As for Spartan slaves fighting in their armies?  Never happen.  A Spartan would kill any slave that even thought about touching a weapon.  What you probably are thinking of as "slaves" were the Spartan "allies" and tributaries.  They were something like Auxiliaries in a Roman Legion.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2008, 12:20:16 pm »
In the time of Leonidas, there were over 10,000 Spartan males.  By the time of the Macedonians, there were less than 1000.  Slaves did do a portion of the fighting with the Spartans serving as an officer corp.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2008, 12:24:06 pm »
I WAS an evolutionist, but I found that if I looked at the theory of eviloution.......er I mean evolution from a diffrent perspective, I found that it sounded so..................idiotic. There are over 110 ways to age the Earth and most say the Earth is no older then 10,000 years old, Carbon 14 is one of the 7 or so ways that say it's older than that. Which is supporting the Scientific Method? The majority or minority? I'm no longer a eviloutionist and I will never be one again, I also think that your "evidence" is not convincing enough.  Also, wow, the Spartan population became that low, but I bet that went out with a bang though.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2008, 12:38:44 pm »
In the time of Leonidas, there were over 10,000 Spartan males.  By the time of the Macedonians, there were less than 1000.  Slaves did do a portion of the fighting with the Spartans serving as an officer corp.

One could argue that wasn't a Spartan army.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2008, 12:40:27 pm »
You're right about that. When the 300 Spartans held off the Persian army at Thermopyle, they thought they had trouble with only 300, try 10,000 later on, not so good. Also, Spartan boys weere taken at age 7, not 12.

1.  The children were sent to the Sparta's military academy, agoge, at the age of 7.  At the age of 12 they were paired with a mentor, who was also their lover. 

2.  At Thermopolae, it was not 300 Spartans.  It was 300 Spartans, 700 Thesbians, and 6,000 Greeks from other city states.

I WAS an evolutionist, but I found that if I looked at the theory of eviloution.......er I mean evolution from a diffrent perspective, I found that it sounded so..................idiotic. There are over 110 ways to age the Earth and most say the Earth is no older then 10,000 years old, Carbon 14 is one of the 7 or so ways that say it's older than that. Which is supporting the Scientific Method? The majority or minority? I'm no longer a eviloutionist and I will never be one again, I also think that your "evidence" is not convincing enough.  Also, wow, the Spartan population became that low, but I bet that went out with a bang though.

What methods say the earth is no older than 10,000 years.

One reason for their declining birth rate may have been the fact that Spartan males preferred young boys to their wives, and were not fulfilling their duty to maintain the population.  After they lost the Corinthian wars, they kind of faded into obscurity.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2008, 12:41:27 pm »
I knew, about a battialion I think. But still, a formidable foe. Also, thanks for that bit off info.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2008, 12:43:05 pm »
In the time of Leonidas, there were over 10,000 Spartan males.  By the time of the Macedonians, there were less than 1000.  Slaves did do a portion of the fighting with the Spartans serving as an officer corp.

One could argue that wasn't a Spartan army.

Yet that's the army that would have been fighting at Leuctra.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2008, 12:47:40 pm »
I guess I still have much to learn from them.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2008, 12:56:27 pm »
I WAS an evolutionist, but I found that if I looked at the theory of eviloution.......er I mean evolution from a diffrent perspective, I found that it sounded so..................idiotic.

LOL... 'eviloution' [sic] is idiotic? I've never heard of any reputable scientific source claiming the Earth is anything less than a billion years old. Sounds like you've got a bad case of ID poisoning...
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2008, 01:01:13 pm »
Look it up online. I will not be fooled again by things like eviloution, and what is ID poisining?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2008, 01:10:25 pm »
Heh. I've studied it at both the high school and college levels. Not only is it a highly plausible and probable theory, but there's plenty of evidence in the world to support it. I've found the only people that reject evolution as vehemently as you have a preexisting bias against it, for whatever reason...

ID = the so-called intelligent design 'theory'. Take it from there.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2008, 01:29:53 pm »
So, you think life is one big mistake? I sided with ID'ers because many teachers who sided with ID got crucified by you eviloutionists,  evoloution is also the founding stone of nazism and communism, and I HATE both nazis and commies.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2008, 01:51:02 pm »
And no wonder, considering that ID is not science. It has no place in the classroom, and any teacher foolish enough to try and throw out an established cornerstone of scientific knowledge in order to teach what is basically religious propaganda should have been canned.

Your last comment proves that you know nothing about fascism or communism. They are political ideologies, not scientific schools of thought. Yes, they rejected religious thought, but that doesn't mean evolution is a cornerstone of that fascist/communist belief system. You're linking the two not because an actual connection between them exists, but because you find them both objectionable, and therefore they MUST be connected to each other. Which is not the case.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2008, 01:57:44 pm »
*shakes head because of your ignorance* . Hitler was an evoloutionist, look what he did to those "inferior" races. Karl Marx was a Christian then was taught evoloution, not long afterwords, he founded communism. What does that say? Beshides, ID is a person's views, what happened to the freedom to teach freely? Don't answer that. Beshides, give me a really solid piece of evidence that will stand up to me? I know things that you'll probably never learn in an evoloution supporting school.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2008, 02:16:26 pm »
*shakes head because of your ignorance* . Hitler was an evoloutionist, look what he did to those "inferior" races. Karl Marx was a Christian then was taught evoloution, not long afterwords, he founded communism. What does that say? Beshides, ID is a person's views, what happened to the freedom to teach freely? Don't answer that. Beshides, give me a really solid piece of evidence that will stand up to me? I know things that you'll probably never learn in an evoloution supporting school.

Hitler and his cronies took basic language from evolution, and genetics, and twisted them for their own use.  Also, find me evidence that Marx formulated communism because of the theory of evolution.  We could give you evidence, but you would just dismiss without looking at it objectively.  Why don't you give me evidence for intelligent design.

Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2008, 02:23:48 pm »
got a DvD on it, but I loaned it to someone, I'm getting it back Wensday. It tells all about flaws in your theory, or should I say religion. Ya'll take so dang seriously I can't help but compare your eagerness to defend it to the Muslims, we say one bad word about it and the DSTs (Darwin Shock Troopers)  are on the march. I was a victim of your kinds eagerness to defend it, I was publicly shamed and almost got knifed in the back thank you very much.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2008, 02:30:53 pm »
got a DvD on it, but I loaned it to someone, I'm getting it back Wensday. It tells all about flaws in your theory, or should I say religion. Ya'll take so dang seriously I can't help but compare your eagerness to defend it to the Muslims, we say one bad word about it and the DSTs (Darwin Shock Troopers)  are on the march. I was a victim of your kinds eagerness to defend it, I was publicly shamed and almost got knifed in the back thank you very much.

My religion is Christianity.  I however do not take the book of Genesis literally, and recognize that God in his greatness can create a universe that is governed by natural laws.  Evolution is one of those laws.  It is only theoretical in the sense that we are still trying to learn how it works.  Also, your DVD probably doesn't shoot down the flaws in evolution, but in its false interpretation of evolution.  Give me the name of it, so I can look it up.  I'll try to see if I can find a transcript of it.

Offline KOTH-KieranXC, Ret.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2008, 02:31:50 pm »
*shakes head because of your ignorance* . Hitler was an evoloutionist, look what he did to those "inferior" races. Karl Marx was a Christian then was taught evoloution, not long afterwords, he founded communism. What does that say? Beshides, ID is a person's views, what happened to the freedom to teach freely? Don't answer that. Beshides, give me a really solid piece of evidence that will stand up to me? I know things that you'll probably never learn in an evoloution supporting school.

Hitler and his cronies took basic language from evolution, and genetics, and twisted them for their own use.  Also, find me evidence that Marx formulated communism because of the theory of evolution.  We could give you evidence, but you would just dismiss without looking at it objectively.  Why don't you give me evidence for intelligent design.

Knightstorm, ya took the words right out of my mouth...

Hitler's practices came out of a twisted amalgamation of nationalism, genetics, and the need for a scapegoat. He needed someone to blame Germany's problems, and the 'inferior' were as good a target as any. Hitler was a racial supremacist, not a hardcore 'evolutionist'.

There's plenty of evidence out there to support evolution if you can approach it with an open mind. Have you ever even read On the Origin of Species? Heard of Darwin's finches? The color shift of peppered moths in England during the Industrial Revolution? There's plenty out there.

And you 'shake your head from *my* ignorance'... Dude, you're 15. You've got what, two-three years of high school left? Then college? There's a lot for you to learn yet still.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2008, 02:35:59 pm »
got a DvD on it, but I loaned it to someone, I'm getting it back Wensday. It tells all about flaws in your theory, or should I say religion. Ya'll take so dang seriously I can't help but compare your eagerness to defend it to the Muslims, we say one bad word about it and the DSTs (Darwin Shock Troopers)  are on the march. I was a victim of your kinds eagerness to defend it, I was publicly shamed and almost got knifed in the back thank you very much.

The people that peddle ID and try to push unscientific 'theories' into our schools are just as bad. You compare people who believe in evolution to Muslims? LOL... we're not the ones that are trying to create a society governed and controlled by religion.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2008, 02:46:19 pm »
The "fight or flight" instict may have some effect on the human race's evoulution, in some parts of the world.

For instance, the Gauls and Franks were a warrior race, thousands of years ago, who fought a lot with each other or other tribal races.

Now those with big balls would be more inclined to fight, and run the probable risk of death in battle, where as those who were less well endowed would chose to run away as fast as their legs would carry them, probally aided by the lack of sizable gonads.

I don't think that this is plausible as every race in the world today is descended from warring tribes.  Would  you say the Scots, Irish or English don't have fighting genes?  They have been on the recieving end of invasions since before the Romans and still they are fighters when they need to be.  As are their descendents in other parts of the world such as North America. 

Let us not forget those of us of Spanish descent.  And by that I mean any group such as Puerto Ricans, Equadorians, Mexicans, Cubans, those areas of the world that were once held and colonized by Spain.

We're normally 1 of 2 kinds of people.  Fighters, or lovers.  If we couldn't win in bed, we'd get drunk and gang up on everyone. 

Granted, Spain isn't exactly a power anymore in most respects, but Latinos around the world are too hot headed, and in some cases too stupid, to run from a fight until they realize well into the fight that they aren't gonna win.  And even then, those of us that are truly stupid will still fight.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2008, 02:49:38 pm »
The fighting gene is still alive and kicking in the UK population.... Brits and Paddies are both well known the world over for violence especially after excess drinking.... :(

Currently, we have an epidemic of drunken street brawling, fights that end in serious bodily harm or death, etc..... and that even includes women as perpetrators!!

It is a shame that we don't have the US system of bar room fighting where no actual punches are thrown, just to guys standing nose to nose throwing more and more medically impossible threats at each other until the original reason for the dispute is lost, drinks are bought and both end up drinking together.

In the UK, nobody ever stands "in someone's face" as the nose breaking and instantly concussing "Glaswegian Kiss" is a notorious result.

The Roman historian and biographer to Julius Caeser wrote of the Britons, "All they, the Britons, like to do is drink to excess and fight amongst themselves"..... how little has changed in 2,000 years.

However, it was this gentic trait of always spoiling for a good fight that allowed Britain to own 48% of the world's land mass and have the planet's biggest undefeated empire in history. Name a nation on this planet and at sometime in history, Britain has been at war with it.

Violence outside bars and clubs is a huge problem for the government over here, at the moment.

The Spartan practice of "Rogering" new recruits ensured that the possibilty of giving away a sneak attack on unsuspecting Persians with a loud fart was impossible.

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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2008, 02:51:04 pm »
Not college, military. And I've got three years of high school left. Plus, I've spent alot reading up on evoloution before I went back, I did read all about the finches and such, I also have read about Neaderthal and Java man, Neanderthal was a really, really old man and Java man was actually a pigs tooth.Along with bones found over a few miles. I also am not suggesting that I want a theocracy, but I only want the hardcore facts to be taught, or opinoion to be taught. Science is, after all, what the facts say, and what I've done research on has lead me to belive in ID. You're saying that life happened by accident, I say that it was made by another being. You can believe what you want, but don't try to say that ID is not a possibiblity. Also, I agree with you Nemesis, some Latinos are very quick to pull the trigger. There's also the matter of that God invented whiskey to prevent the Irish from ruling the world.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2008, 02:57:31 pm »
I WAS an evolutionist, but I found that if I looked at the theory of eviloution.......er I mean evolution from a diffrent perspective, I found that it sounded so..................idiotic. There are over 110 ways to age the Earth and most say the Earth is no older then 10,000 years old, Carbon 14 is one of the 7 or so ways that say it's older than that. Which is supporting the Scientific Method? The majority or minority? I'm no longer a eviloutionist and I will never be one again, I also think that your "evidence" is not convincing enough.  Also, wow, the Spartan population became that low, but I bet that went out with a bang though.

From a certain point of view, you're right, they did go out with a bang.  Since they had practiced selective breeding in their society, eventually you severely restrict your gene pool, which then begins to promote birth defects and various other ailments relating to eventual inbreeding, because if you only allow people to mate within your specific group, and only allow certain children to survive, after a while, you create the concept of "Nothing spells lovin' like marryin' your cousin".

So you're right, they banged themselves out of existence.

 ;D
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2008, 03:03:52 pm »
Not college, military. And I've got three years of high school left. Plus, I've spent alot reading up on evoloution before I went back, I did read all about the finches and such, I also have read about Neaderthal and Java man, Neanderthal was a really, really old man and Java man was actually a pigs tooth.Along with bones found over a few miles. I also am not suggesting that I want a theocracy, but I only want the hardcore facts to be taught, or opinoion to be taught. Science is, after all, what the facts say, and what I've done research on has lead me to belive in ID. You're saying that life happened by accident, I say that it was made by another being. You can believe what you want, but don't try to say that ID is not a possibiblity. Also, I agree with you Nemesis, some Latinos are very quick to pull the trigger. There's also the matter of that God invented whiskey to prevent the Irish from ruling the world.

Now your confused.  While the first Neanderthal was an old man, it was still a separate species.   When Neanderthal was first discovered, the scientist who described the bones used improper scientific method.  At the time it was believed that humans had evolved from an ape-like ancestor, but there had been no fossil finds.  Neanderthal was the first hominid discovered, and he wanted to believe that it was a missing link.  So he ignored evidence of arthritis, and described him as a quadruped.  Also, the pigs tooth was Nebraska man.

Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2008, 03:08:58 pm »
*shakes head because of your ignorance* . Hitler was an evoloutionist, look what he did to those "inferior" races. Karl Marx was a Christian then was taught evoloution, not long afterwords, he founded communism. What does that say? Beshides, ID is a person's views, what happened to the freedom to teach freely? Don't answer that. Beshides, give me a really solid piece of evidence that will stand up to me? I know things that you'll probably never learn in an evoloution supporting school.

Did you know that Karl Marx rejected everything that the adopters of Communism believed, because they had twisted and corrupted the very concept of what he originally created?  If you read, or were older and studied more objectively, you would have known that what eventually became known as Communism in this world is far from what Karl Marx had originally conceived.  And because they had twisted it, he rejected them all.

Hitler was a sociopathic ideologist that blamed the Jews for Germany's shortcomings and poverty after WWI, yet he was Jewish himself.  Perhaps by your reasoning, the Jewish religion is also evil because Hitler was Jewish, and he, according to you, believed in evolution theory.

But seriously, if you're gonna make allegations such as these, you gotta take them to H&S, where you can be torn apart properly.  That's what H&S is for.

I may display my insanity throughout the forums, but when it comes to such political statements, I rarely make them such as this outside H&S because even I have a boundary.  Although I am also a firm believer in the concept of an exception to every rule.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2008, 03:14:56 pm »
The fighting gene is still alive and kicking in the UK population.... Brits and Paddies are both well known the world over for violence especially after excess drinking.... :(



During the last world cup, an Italian neo-nazi group threatened to beat up the Arab spectators.  They stated that "none but the English are to be feared."

Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2008, 03:17:02 pm »
*chuckels while shaking his head* Wow, Centurus. You are a pervert. But I meant that their last stand was a very violent end but left their mark on history. Also, Hitler rejected Judiasm, but I didn't know about Karl Marx rejected what he made. I really didn't know that. Going back to what I was talking about earlier, ya'll can believe evoloution if you want, just don't try to kill ID because it's just another possiblity in this world. Thanks for that bit of news knightstorm, the nazis are on the move again. Great. >:(
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2008, 03:17:44 pm »
Not college, military. And I've got three years of high school left. Plus, I've spent alot reading up on evoloution before I went back, I did read all about the finches and such, I also have read about Neaderthal and Java man, Neanderthal was a really, really old man and Java man was actually a pigs tooth.Along with bones found over a few miles. I also am not suggesting that I want a theocracy, but I only want the hardcore facts to be taught, or opinoion to be taught. Science is, after all, what the facts say, and what I've done research on has lead me to belive in ID. You're saying that life happened by accident, I say that it was made by another being. You can believe what you want, but don't try to say that ID is not a possibiblity. Also, I agree with you Nemesis, some Latinos are very quick to pull the trigger. There's also the matter of that God invented whiskey to prevent the Irish from ruling the world.

Young, and unobservant.  Why am I not surprised?  Nemesis didn't say that Latinos are quick to pull the trigger.  I did.  But, I'm not gonna get into any trouble for it for one important reason.  I am Latino.  However, to be fair, there are many Latinos that aren't hot headed.  There are many that are very reasonable and calm.  Just that when we blow up, you know it.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2008, 03:22:39 pm »
*chuckels while shaking his head* Wow, Centurus. You are a pervert. But I meant that their last stand was a very violent end but left their mark on history. Also, Hitler rejected Judiasm, but I didn't know about Karl Marx rejected what he made. I really didn't know that. Going back to what I was talking about earlier, ya'll can believe evoloution if you want, just don't try to kill ID because it's just another possiblity in this world. Thanks for that bit of news knightstorm, the nazis are on the move again. Great. >:(

I may be a pervert, but I'm not ignorant.  Insane, yes.  Criminally insane, probably.  Completely nuts, doesn't begin to describe me.

I know what you meant though, about their last great battle.  And even though history has come to favor the story of the brave 300 Spartans that faced off an army of thousands alone, even the Spartans needed help, and they didn't fight that last battle alone.  And also, the battles at sea helped a great deal.  Didn't help the 300 Spartans and, what was it, a thousand other Greek soldiers, in their final battle, but those enemy reinforcements never really made it to shore in time.

But, in my ever trusty insanity, you left yourself wide open for the bang comment.  I couldn't help myself.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2008, 03:25:04 pm »
My next door neighboors are Latino as well, as well as a few other people in the area. Some are trigger-happy, some are calm and coordinanted. Usually, the illegals are trigger-happy, Immigration has come by at least three times this week.Also, I respect your insanity, no matter how much  say I don't.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2008, 03:25:19 pm »
Look at any piece of technology and you'll be able to draw up a evolutionbary tree.

Take the Armoured Fighting Vehicle (tanks to the layman) and the development into various directions during the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, etc.

The principle driving forces pushing the evolution was the continuing counter development of the anti-tank shell and guns to shoot them from.

Various forms of suspension were developed, as were various tank concepts from machine gun only armed light tanks to multi-turreted landbattleships.

However, WW2 soon showed that some tank designs were evolutionary dead ends, whilst others proved more worthy of continued development.

The same goes for aircraft, locomotives, ships, buildings, etc.

Evolution works with technology as well.

That computer you're reading this on didn't just "happen" out of thin air, it is part of an evolutionary tree and not even the pinacle at that.

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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2008, 03:30:58 pm »
That's technology, not a living organism, beshides, evoloutionists keep forgeting this, what are the odds that everylife form was made by an accident. The odds are astronomical. While I say that the were made to be exactly like we are. Beshides, if we're so smart, why aren't we out of the solar system by now?
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2008, 03:42:56 pm »
MEETINGS, that's why.... >:(

Meetings are how those who can't do anything usefull but manage other who can, can hold up human progress by wasting the time of engineers and scientists.

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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2008, 03:49:53 pm »
Plus things called environmentalists, they limit our progression into space. >:(
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Offline Just plain old Punisher

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2008, 04:55:56 pm »
That's technology, not a living organism, beshides, evoloutionists keep forgeting this, what are the odds that everylife form was made by an accident. The odds are astronomical. While I say that the were made to be exactly like we are. Beshides, if we're so smart, why aren't we out of the solar system by now?

Life wasn't created by accident.

Keeping in mind, life has had billions of years to develop on earth.

Do you know the law of large numbers? It states, basically, that with enough time even the astronomical becomes possible -- or even likley.

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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2008, 05:02:20 pm »
Perhaps, there's only one way to find out, one needs to die then send a message back from the dead.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2008, 05:07:17 pm »
Perhaps, there's only one way to find out, one needs to die then send a message back from the dead.

I've been dead before.  The only message I brought back was the following:

1.) Even Heaven hates reality TV.

2.) Neither Heaven nor Hell wants me.  That's why they sent me back.  And the worst part, I didn't even get frequent flyer miles or a bag of peanuts.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2008, 05:18:00 pm »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2008, 05:19:30 pm »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?

I did it.  I'm still not sure how because my parents were still in elementary school.

Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2008, 05:24:46 pm »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?

I did it.  I'm still not sure how because my parents were still in elementary school.

I can provide some insight.  You see, in a couple years, you would have said something deserving of being smacked by a rubber chicken, however I smack you a bit too hard and send you back in time.

While in the past, you decide to try and prevent JFK's assassination, but because I sent you back only with a Polka music CD, and not a very good one by the way, you accidentally shoot JFK, and then are sent back to the present with the timeline unchanged. 

However, you managed to earn an enormous amount of frequent flyer miles and you take a trip around the world.

You sent me a postcard about it. 

 :angel:
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2008, 05:31:43 pm »
Ok.................................Getting back to reality, JFK died because Johnson basically put money on his head and wanted to be president, so you didn't know that,  to think , is Area 51 real?
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2008, 05:45:49 pm »
Ok.................................Getting back to reality, JFK died because Johnson basically put money on his head and wanted to be president, so you didn't know that,  to think , is Area 51 real?

Actually, the theory that LBJ was behind Kennedy's assassination is one of the most common, and personally, more credible ones.  However, there's no proof.  Granted, it makes sense in some areas, but there's no proof as of yet that it's true.

Also, there are other theories that state Kennedy was assassinated because certain people, in some theories those people were in Washington, in others just some radical nutjobs, simply didn't want a Catholic as president.  However, I don't think those particular theories are very well known.  I can't remember where I had heard the theory to be perfectly honest.

But, it's also very possible that members of both parties had him assassinated, for whatever political or personal reasons they had at the time.  It's also possible that the Russians could have had him assassinated, or some other enemy nation at the time.

Many things are possible.  Unfortunately, we don't have concrete evidence of what's actually true.  Although there are some that believe that there was a lone gunman acting on his own as history has recorded, and there's nothing wrong with that to be perfectly honest. 

But there will always be many who doubt it was so simple as that.

As for Area 51, I do believe it exists.  But that's a belief rather than a hardcore fact, unless of course you know someone who currently is assigned to Area 51.  But if you do, and you state you do, you run the risk of government involvement in the most negative ways cause they'd want to keep that covered up as much as possible.  Why else would they go through so much effort to make alot of Area 51 believers seem like screwballs that speak to God on a ham radio that doesn't work.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2008, 05:53:27 pm »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?

I did it.  I'm still not sure how because my parents were still in elementary school.

I can provide some insight.  You see, in a couple years, you would have said something deserving of being smacked by a rubber chicken, however I smack you a bit too hard and send you back in time.

While in the past, you decide to try and prevent JFK's assassination, but because I sent you back only with a Polka music CD, and not a very good one by the way, you accidentally shoot JFK, and then are sent back to the present with the timeline unchanged. 

However, you managed to earn an enormous amount of frequent flyer miles and you take a trip around the world.

You sent me a postcard about it. 

 :angel:

Flaws in your theory

1. I have faced the terror of Manbearpig and lived.  Your rubber chicken does not have power over me.

2. While this statement is on the edge of H&S, I do not consider Kennedy to be a good president, and blame him for almost starting a nuclear war with Russia.  If I was in the past, I would not have tried to stop the assassination because that would give him another chance to almost get my parents killed, and erase me from existence.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2008, 05:58:42 pm »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?

I did it.  I'm still not sure how because my parents were still in elementary school.

I can provide some insight.  You see, in a couple years, you would have said something deserving of being smacked by a rubber chicken, however I smack you a bit too hard and send you back in time.

While in the past, you decide to try and prevent JFK's assassination, but because I sent you back only with a Polka music CD, and not a very good one by the way, you accidentally shoot JFK, and then are sent back to the present with the timeline unchanged. 

However, you managed to earn an enormous amount of frequent flyer miles and you take a trip around the world.

You sent me a postcard about it. 

 :angel:

Flaws in your theory

1. I have faced the terror of Manbearpig and lived.  Your rubber chicken does not have power over me.

2. While this statement is on the edge of H&S, I do not consider Kennedy to be a good president, and blame him for almost starting a nuclear war with Russia.  If I was in the past, I would not have tried to stop the assassination because that would give him another chance to almost get my parents killed, and erase me from existence.

Manbearpig?  Must be related to Lisa Lampinelli.

I've seen worse posts in H&S, so trust me, you're alright for the most part.

But hey, you gotta admit, it was a nice storyline.  I particularly liked the polka CD part.  It was so stupid, it was right.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2008, 05:59:31 pm »
Still, Kenndy's assination is one of the biggest mysteries of our country. Next, Area 51, anything funny to say Centurus?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2008, 06:01:07 pm »
Still, Kenndy's assination is one of the biggest mysteries of our country. Next, Area 51, anything funny to say Centurus?

Yeah.  Ever since the failed experiments with the Tribble Torpedo, I'll never outsource our R&D work to Area 51 ever again.  I should have listened to Punisher and outsourced to his Area 52.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2008, 06:04:21 pm »
I am the Punisher. * gets out a mningun and readys the armored Mustang*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2008, 06:06:06 pm »
I am the Punisher. * gets out a mningun and readys the armored Mustang*

No, Punisher is the Punisher.  You're more like mini-Punisher with the Hot Wheels bike.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2008, 06:11:48 pm »
I got a rocket launcher in the trunk as well. It's a Jackhammer, gotta love Halo.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2008, 06:14:38 pm »
I got a rocket launcher in the trunk as well. It's a Jackhammer, gotta love Halo.

*looks at the rocket launcher and notices the label*  Fisher Price.  Hmmm......
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2008, 06:24:01 pm »
* takes back the launcher pulls the trigger and two rockets launch, Spartna looks back at the spent canister and sees a label that says, heat-seeking* Aw crap............Run. *Spartan and CEnturus take off running*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2008, 06:27:04 pm »
* takes back the launcher pulls the trigger and two rockets launch, Spartna looks back at the spent canister and sees a label that says, heat-seeking* Aw crap............Run. *Spartan and CEnturus take off running*

*wonders why Spartan is running, and who he's running with, shrugs, looks at the rockets, grabs them in mid air, and walks back to his quarters and brings along some white wine and A-1*
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2008, 06:30:52 pm »
*Spartan stops running, looks at Centurus in his quarters and is weirded out*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2008, 06:31:41 pm »
Quote
As for Area 51, I do believe it exists.  But that's a belief rather than a hardcore fact, unless of course you know someone who currently is assigned to Area 51.  But if you do, and you state you do, you run the risk of government involvement in the most negative ways cause they'd want to keep that covered up as much as possible.  Why else would they go through so much effort to make alot of Area 51 believers seem like screwballs that speak to God on a ham radio that doesn't work.

It does exist. It's just called something else...Groom Lake.

We test most of our new aircraft there. B-2 , F-117, stuff like that.

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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2008, 06:33:00 pm »
*Spartan stops running, looks at Centurus in his quarters and is weirded out*

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a grown man liking Barry White and pouring A-1 over live rockets*
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2008, 06:34:40 pm »
Quote
As for Area 51, I do believe it exists.  But that's a belief rather than a hardcore fact, unless of course you know someone who currently is assigned to Area 51.  But if you do, and you state you do, you run the risk of government involvement in the most negative ways cause they'd want to keep that covered up as much as possible.  Why else would they go through so much effort to make alot of Area 51 believers seem like screwballs that speak to God on a ham radio that doesn't work.

It does exist. It's just called something else...Groom Lake.

We test most of our new aircraft there. B-2 , F-117, stuff like that.

Groom Lake.....isn't that where Dick Clark gets his replacement parts made?
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2008, 06:37:10 pm »
Sometimes I worry about you Centurus.......... What about the wine, care to share?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2008, 06:39:49 pm »
Sometimes I worry about you Centurus.......... What about the wine, care to share?

Everyone worries about me.  But these days everyone worries that I'll actually become sane.  Trust me, it's not a pleasant thought.

And you've never heard of having white wine with explosive munitions?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2008, 06:49:08 pm »
No...........why? I just want to use it to drink my worries away. O'Mally and his universal domination quest is one of them.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2008, 06:50:31 pm »
No...........why? I just want to use it to drink my worries away. O'Mally and his universal domination quest is one of them.

*shows Spartan a picture of Kathy Bates and walks away, and hears Spartan's eyes scream in pain and explode*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #119 on: July 07, 2008, 06:55:25 pm »
*Spartan pops up again behind Centurus, taps him on the shoulder and shows him his friend, the evil robotic carrots of doom.*
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #120 on: July 07, 2008, 06:57:17 pm »
*Spartan pops up again behind Centurus, taps him on the shoulder and shows him his friend, the evil robotic carrots of doom.*

*whispers in the ears of the robotic carrots, then sees them run away screaming*
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #121 on: July 07, 2008, 07:02:53 pm »
What'd you say to make my carrot army run?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #122 on: July 07, 2008, 07:04:07 pm »
What'd you say to make my carrot army run?

I reminded them of the last time they went up against me.  They were all forced to take turns giving me a sponge bath.  But, I told them that next time, I wouldn't be wearing swim trunks.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #123 on: July 07, 2008, 07:05:27 pm »
*Spartan turns green and starts throwing up outside the door*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2008, 09:26:37 pm »
mmmkkk, I'm going to say this once here.. THIS IS A BACTERIA DISCUSSION, nothing else, so please revert back on to the topic at hand, or else this thread will need to be moved.
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Offline Centurus

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2008, 09:32:47 pm »
mmmkkk, I'm going to say this once here.. THIS IS A BACTERIA DISCUSSION, nothing else, so please revert back on to the topic at hand, or else this thread will need to be moved.

You're about an hour or so late.  The comotion died down a while ago.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2008, 05:06:41 am »
So what's the truth of the JFK assaination?

:police: KEEP THIS FORUM TO SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY :police:

No one here does not know this and you Spartan have been directly told this about the JFK assassination already.  Don't make me escalate this by repeating this rules violation again. 

The JFK assassination is a Hot and Spicy topic not an Engineering one.  So keep it there.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2008, 05:29:47 am »
I also have read about Neaderthal and Java man, Neanderthal was a really, really old man and Java man was actually a pigs tooth.

That claim was made about the 1st Neanderthal skeleton found.  They claimed it was an old arthritic man with rickets.  Of course that doesn't explain the other skeletons with the same characteristics.  Some of those skeletons were of children and didn't match the symptoms claimed for them.  It also doesn't explain the DNA extracted from Neanderthal teeth which is NOT human.  Closer than chimp DNA but definitely not human.

Though there really is scientific controversy over Java man it has nothing to do with pigs.  The "pigs tooth" controversy was Nebraska man.  While it isn't considered a hoax it was a mistake made and revealed by scientists.

You can believe what you want, but don't try to say that ID is not a possibiblity.

Read up on Pastafarianism.  Why it was created and why by the definition used by ID of what constitutes a scientific theory it would have to be taught alongside ID as "science".

Also, I agree with you Nemesis, some Latinos are very quick to pull the trigger.

Which I never said.

By nature I myself am a berserker with a hair trigger temper.  I however spent a lot of my life learning to controll it. There are people of all ethnic backgrounds with such tempers and I would not single out any one this way.

There's also the matter of that God invented whiskey to prevent the Irish from ruling the world.

A very inappropriate comment as is the Latino comment (falsely) attributed to me.  Don't repeat this behaviour.  Racist comments are not acceptable here.

As you have been told stick to science and technology.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #128 on: July 08, 2008, 06:35:56 am »
Look it up online. I will not be fooled again by things like eviloution, and what is ID poisining?


When someone makes a claim it is up to them to back it up not those who dispute it. 

You made the claim that there were over a 100 methods of dating the age of the earth that resulted in no more than 10,000 years it is up to you to back that up.  If you don't then you can blame anyone for assuming that it is because you can't.  Its a "put up or shut up" stituation.  Can you back up your claims of over 100 scientific methods to determine the age of the Earth that result in less than 10,000 years or not?

got a DvD on it,


Would that be Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed?

If so you might want to read what one of the people who was in it had to say about the lies and deceptions that went into filming it?  Or the way one of those in it was EXPELLED from the preview when normally some one in a movie is allowed at the preview, indeed is normally EXPECTED to be there?
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #129 on: July 08, 2008, 10:03:20 am »
Ok Nemesis, I've been reasearching those methods to back up my story, I'm in the third page of google search results, give me a few days or a week and I'll have what I need to back me up. And no, I have not gotten that DvD yet, it's a debate between evoloutionists and creationists, the evoloutionist gotten steamrolled into the floor. I've watched Explelled but I've seen it out on DvD and probably never will.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #130 on: July 08, 2008, 10:40:00 am »
Pastafarianism. 

Is that by any chance like whole wheat pasta served with eggplant parmesian?

*drools*   :drool: :drool:
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #131 on: July 08, 2008, 11:28:08 am »
Is that by any chance like whole wheat pasta served with eggplant parmesian?

*drools*   :drool: :drool:


Afraid not though the FSM is something like that,.
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #132 on: July 08, 2008, 11:38:51 am »
Is that by any chance like whole wheat pasta served with eggplant parmesian?

*drools*   :drool: :drool:


Afraid not though the FSM is something like that,.


Flying spaghetti monster......hmmmm.......*grabs a large, clean, nylon net, a big bowl, a fork, some salt, and 3 jars of Preggo, and begins hunting*
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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2008, 04:20:01 am »

Manbearpig?  Must be related to Lisa Lampinelli.



I don't know who that is, is there a resemblance?


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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2008, 06:46:23 am »

Manbearpig?  Must be related to Lisa Lampinelli.



I don't know who that is, is there a resemblance?






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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2008, 08:29:43 am »
surprisingly I can see a resemblance.  Especially with the top picture.

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Re: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2008, 09:30:51 pm »
surprisingly I can see a resemblance.  Especially with the top picture.

Yep.
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