Topic: What ever Happened to the Consitution and what is the difference between the Con  (Read 53933 times)

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Offline Vipre

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but seriously a Connie into the depths of the Beta Quadrant.

Confusing the Beta Q with Delta or Gamma perhaps? Beta is Fed/Klink backyard. Besides 8 years doesn't mean one way, they were probably never out of contact.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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The Saratoga was apparently a line ship.  There wasn't any mention of Sisko being assigned to it in an emergency, and if he was... why was his wife and child aboard?  The Miranda seems to be a modular cruiser when it was debuted near the end of the Constitution's service life.  It was probably in the range of the New Heavy, or New Light Cruiser.  I really wouldn't call it a war cruiser as the Federation really didn't have any war to be fighting at the time.  By the time of DS9, the Miranda was an aging Frigate, but its ability to be modified to different roles made it still useful.

That said, anyone think the Olympia could have been a Constellation?  Seems strange to use something as big as an Ambassador for a deep space probe.  The Constellation seems to be about the right size, and remember it wasn't eight years from the episode, she had been dead for a while when the Defiant finally found her, it may have been the Olympia's last planned mission before her retirement.
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Offline Corbomite

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I don't see the Connie as a pure science vessel so far fetched. Those hulls have a lot of room and if you reduce the crew size to, say around 100, all those quarters and rec facilities refitted for science and storage, not to mention less life support and food needs, it seems the perfect hull for long range exploration with minimal weapons, heavy defense and a good top speed. Remember the problems the Equinox faced in the Delta Quadrant since it was a short range science vessel and well out of its range of operation? We know that they were sending Ambassador class to the Beta Quadrant since isn't that where Sulu was returning from in the beginning of STVI?

Offline Vipre

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Confusing the Beta Q with Delta or Gamma perhaps? Beta is Fed/Klink backyard. Besides 8 years doesn't mean one way, they were probably never out of contact.

It was far enough that no one noticed it disappeared otherwise once contact would have been made with Defiant, the computers would have had a side note stating, "missing" and  sure the crew would have briefed Sisko on that.

Good point.

 I'm liking that Constellation theory, hadn't even occurred as an option but it fits so nicely.

The onscreen shot was clearly Contitution-esque (yeah, same model parts and all but still) and surely you don't lose track and forget about one of the biggest ships in the fleet. A small nearly outdated exploration craft on the other hand...
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Offline knightstorm

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The Constellation class was considered unsuccessful.  Picard described them as being "underpowered and overworked."

Offline Vipre

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Unsuccessful designs don't spend 70 years in service.  Picard himself commanded the Stargazer for 22 years.
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Offline TAnimaL

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Yes, we saw too many Constellations for them to be considered "failure", and Picard only described Stargazer not as a failure but as "underpowered and overworked." Sounds like my 75 Jeep, but it still gets around just fine. :)

The Beta quadrant is, um, one-quarter of the galaxy, remember? something like 120 million cubic lightyears there. Plenty of room to wander and be far from home. That said, the reuse of some minatures hardly really means Olympia was a Connie...

(edit-posted too early, stoopid doorbell)

IIRC, we don't actually see much of Olympia in that ep, do we? I'm not seeing any on Trekcore screencaps
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 01:19:34 pm by TAnimaL »

Offline Corbomite

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Well Sulu's ship was an Excelsior Class not Ambassador Class.


I never remember what they call those ugly ass things.

Offline TAnimaL

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uh, yeah, if this is Olympia



good luck telling what is used to be

Offline Corbomite

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Looks more like Grissom than Enterprise. Or maybe the freighter.

Offline TAnimaL

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Another thing that's always bugged me is the notion that ships like the Connie hull seen in "BOBW" as being "ships pulled out of mothballs for emergencies." I live nearby a US navy yard where many ships are mothballed, and I'm sure it would take weeks to get those ships back into active service. Maybe Starfleet is more efficient in the 24th century, but still, it's not like they're sitting there gassed and ready to go.

As far as the "mystery BOBW Connie" being a museum ship, it just so happens I also live very nearby the USS Olympia, a museum ship of Commodore Dewey's flagship. Trust me, if the Navy is ever so desperate to try to use that in an emergency, it's time to throw in the towel. :D

Maybe there are a few Connies still on active duty? Or maybe there's another starship that shares a similar secondary hull. Maybe another Franz Joseph cut-and-paste job...

Again, we'll never really know...

Offline Corbomite

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Well Admrial Hanson did say they were getting ready for the Borg and that they showed up early. Maybe part of that was unmothballing older ships to to allow for newer ships to be brought in and refitted with better weapons and such. When the Borg showed up prematurely they just threw what they had at them.

Offline knightstorm

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Unsuccessful designs don't spend 70 years in service.  Picard himself commanded the Stargazer for 22 years.

Midway class aircraft carriers never had ideal handling characteristics, but they served in the USN for 47 years.

Another thing that's always bugged me is the notion that ships like the Connie hull seen in "BOBW" as being "ships pulled out of mothballs for emergencies." I live nearby a US navy yard where many ships are mothballed, and I'm sure it would take weeks to get those ships back into active service. Maybe Starfleet is more efficient in the 24th century, but still, it's not like they're sitting there gassed and ready to go.



I think the turn around time for reactivating a reserve ship is supposed to be six months.  Whether or not it can be done in six months is another story.

Offline knightstorm

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Our current military.

Offline Tulwar

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First, I have no use for the "Enterprise Class."  Artistically, it makes the hero starship of the story too self-important, and thus bad fiction.  Calling the differences a "refit."  It's just a convention to prepare the audience for a bigger, prettier model of the hero ship.  While it would be nice to give the completely different class would be nice, but properly, it's a refit.  The name "Enterprise Class" simply comes from some dialog about a training bridge simulator that looked like a Constitution refit bridge, which would have been exactly like the bridge of the USS Enterprise.  While I would chalk this up as a bit of piece lazy dialog
or flubbed lines going into production, it seems that anything that makes it to film is cannon.  Even so, that could still be taken as the "Enterprise Class" only exists as a holodeck simulation.  The Enterprise itself is not an "Enterprise Class" starship.

In TOS, starships were very few and very far between.  I'm not talking about the ST Universe as fleshed out from many decades of the franchise, but what was presented in the late 1960's.  The Constitution Class starship might have been the backbone of Starfleet, but Starfleet wasn't that big.  When you watch the movies, ships were so scarce they were forced to take the new Enterprises out of stardock, before they were fully operational.  In the case of TMP, STV, and Generations, they severely strained credibility.  As ST advanced to TNG, there were a lot more starships.  This would be natural, as the Federation grew, and more and more starships were made from an ever increasing industrial base.  This would mean an exponential growth in the number of starships.

Constitution class cruisers were in service before Kirk ever commanded one.  As a matter of fact, if you follow the SFB description of the development of the Fed CA, the entire engineering hull with its warp engine nacelles is an add-on.was built in under an existing sub-light "flying saucer."  This makes the "Connie" appear to be a very old design.  As there were fewer shipyards in the olden days, fewer ships were made, so the older the design means the more rare the design.

The Miranda class makes it debut in ST2 WoK.  If one examines the model, one finds that it isn't a "light cruiser," but an advanced adaptation of the Enterprise's design with more phasers, a significantly larger torpedo bay, and twice the shuttle bays, using similar power plants in a far more efficient layout.  While the descendants of Constitution design must have had some advantage allowing the 1701-A to be produced, one could easily see this design supplanting the older design.  In fact, the readiness of Starfleet's to simply scrap fairly new, if battle damaged Constitution refits, shows that this design was getting long in the tooth back in Kirk's day.

In my humble opinion, the Constitutions were rare in TOS timeline, and were being produced in very limited numbers since then, with the 1701-A being the very last.  By the time of TNG, most of the old Constitution Class cruisers would have been lost or scrapped.  I would only expect to see one as a training ship.

That being said, I still think the Constitution Refit is the finest model ever created for ST.  Every other Federation ship is a dog by comparison.  The Klingon K'Tinga despite having too many gimblies is a fitting beauty.  Aside from those, except a few fan-made designs, very few ST models come up to the level of "ok."  I would so much appreciate if any new "Kirk and Spock" ST's would use these models.  The JJ-prizes actually hurt my eyes.
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Offline TAnimaL

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The irony being that Constitutions were the only ships we ever saw in the TOS run, so if they're "rare," they do tend to flock together ;)

Offline knightstorm

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The Miranda class makes it debut in ST2 WoK.  If one examines the model, one finds that it isn't a "light cruiser," but an advanced adaptation of the Enterprise's design with more phasers, a significantly larger torpedo bay, and twice the shuttle bays, using similar power plants in a far more efficient layout.

I would argue that the reliant is a CL.   Actually, the refit Constitution has more phasers than the Miranda.  The emitters are visible on the model, but we never saw them fired.  We also don't know how the phasers compare qualitatively.  The only side by side comparison we have of the ships firing phasers is after the Enterprise had its power systems severely damaged.  That might have affected the phaser output.  Likewise, we don't know how the Enterprise's shields compared to the Reliant's.  The Reliant's torpedo bays were not larger, although, they were more numerous.  As for their power plants, just because they looked similar doesn't mean they were.  They were designed around the same time so of course they would look similar.  I don't get how you find the layout more efficient either.  As for the shuttle bays, we really don't know the internal volume of the Miranda's two bays compared to the Constitution's single.

Or as Tulwar stated, maybe the Federation wasn't as big as we thought it was. Hence the smaller area and more reappearances of the Constitutions. Plus, id keep my 12 CAs close to the Klingon/Federation/Romulan border. Clearly these empires can not be trusted. I'll send the rest of the smaller ships we never saw to other more hospitable areas of the Federation ;)

Or, AMT only mass produced one federation Starship model kit.

Offline Tulwar

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I would argue that the reliant is a CL.   Actually, the refit Constitution has more phasers than the Miranda.  The emitters are visible on the model, but we never saw them fired.  We also don't know how the phasers compare qualitatively.  The only side by side comparison we have of the ships firing phasers is after the Enterprise had its power systems severely damaged.  That might have affected the phaser output.  Likewise, we don't know how the Enterprise's shields compared to the Reliant's.  The Reliant's torpedo bays were not larger, although, they were more numerous.  As for their power plants, just because they looked similar doesn't mean they were.  They were designed around the same time so of course they would look similar.  I don't get how you find the layout more efficient either.  As for the shuttle bays, we really don't know the internal volume of the Miranda's two bays compared to the Constitution's single.

I always wanted the Miranda class to be a CL, but looking at it compared to the Constitution Class, it was just too big.  I see all the ST ships through the prism of SFB, so a CL has to have 5/6 the power, so I can't work it that way.  In real life, a CL and CA are the same size, except the CA has heavier guns and armor, while the CL, floating higher on the water, is faster.  Considering the Enterprise and Reliant have similar volumes, the Big-E has an enormous deflector dish to clear the space ahead, while Khan's ship displays more firepower, I'm having an easier time arguing the reverse.

The reason I say the Miranda is a more efficient design is simply because a bigger, single hull is more efficient than two smaller hulls.  You have fewer exterior walls to worry about.  That reduces mass and expense.  What more do you want?

The shuttle bays on the two designs are very different animals.  The Enterprise appears to have a huge bay, designed to temporarily accommodate a fairly large spacecraft, where the Reliant appears unable to accommodate much more than standard shuttles.  This points to wasted space on the Constitution Class, not the Miranda Class.  Simply having two bays gives the Miranda greater flexiblity in conducting shuttle operations. 

Often, militaries will retire a beloved, beautiful, safe design with something unpopular, ugly, and dangerous, like during WWII, the USAAF procured more B-24's than B-17's.  Having Starfleet replace Constitution Class ships with cheaper, less attractive vessels makes sense to me.

The intent of the director who specified what the Reliant needed to look like was that it looked like a fairly even match for the Big-E, and that the audience could easily tell the difference.  That's why the Miranda doesn't appear to have a deflector dish.  The Enterprise can't travel through space without this huge headlight, yet the Reliant doesn't need one at all.  WTF?  You can only make so much sense out of this.  The fact is, ST is a stew with so many cooks that you can't tell weather it's gumbo or curry.  Take what you want and leave the rest.
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Offline TAnimaL

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mmmm had curry last night...

But half (+) the fun we fans have is trying to make sense of the "jigsaw puzzle that doesn't fit." Ultimately you're right Tulwar, too many cooks trying to make TV & movies, not a history of the future, but there's a thrill when you can make some of it fit, IMHO when it's from "canon," the better.

There must be something about the Miranda that's more durable (because we see them from TWOK thru DS9), just like there's a reason that Constitutions were such a workhorse in TOS and not after. Maybe as Miranda came along, the Connies (that were left) could be sent back out to explore, like they were supposed to?

Two things about Miranda-class. IMO, they seem to be just the right size for a CL to a Constitution CA (see below image). As an old-tyme SFB player, to me they seem to be awfully darn close to the SFB Kearsage-class NCL (see other image below). In terms of shuttlebays, and without ever seeing much inside of a Miranda onscreen, the Constitution shuttlebay actually seems small compared to the shuttlebay doors on a Miranda, and they have two of them.

Offline Tulwar

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Your illustration makes it pretty clear that the Miranda has a whole lot more shuttle bay than the Constitution.  The thing that struck me when examining a model of the Reliant was that the addition to the rear of the saucer was so massive that it approximates the volume of the Big-E's engineering hull.  I'm not just about to build a couple of AMT's models, fill them with clay, drop them in buckets, and measure the amount of water they displace, just to see which one is really bigger.  The Miranda isn't so much smaller as it is significantly more compact.

Now, if I accept the creator's notion that starships require a big deflector dish to clear a path ahead of the ship in order to travel at high speed, then I have to disregard the Miranda as an invalid design.
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