Topic: What ever Happened to the Consitution and what is the difference between the Con  (Read 54599 times)

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Offline Age

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What ever happened to the Constitution classes I read everything there is on alphawikia and it really doesn't say except they were in service 20 more years after there major refit?

What really is the Enterprise A a new class or is it the renamed Yorkown alphawikia doesn't say much on this.It does seem different than all the other refits?

What is the difference between these ships and the Constellation class?What do you believe or your thoughts or interpretet?

The first two are more conjucture questions.I am just missing that old stlye of Trek these days.

Offline knightstorm

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Constitution class ships remained in production until the 2280s.  Following the TMP refit, new ships were built to the updated configuration.  The A was a newly built constitution class ship which was renamed Enterprise following Kirk's trial.  The TNG technical manual assigned the name Yorktown to it.  Being a later build, it incorporated the fifteen years worth of technological improvements.  There were still a few constitution class ships in service as late as the 2360s as evidenced by the wreckage seen in the Best of Both Worlds and the DS9 episode The Sound of Her Voice.  The constellation class is a completely different class as represented by the Stargazer.

Offline Panzergranate

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According to the Franz Joseph - Starfleet Techincal Manual (one which SFB and SFC has its core based) there were 12 x Constitution Class cruisers originally.

10 were actually new builds and two were rebuilds of previous similar classes (1017 Constellation (formally Horizon Class) and 1371 Republic (Republic Class))

In TOS the Republic is hinted at being a cadet training ship for final year academy students.

A series of command cruiser versions (Endeavour Class) followed and also the more combat orientated Achenar and Tikopai classes. In TOS and ENT the 1764 Defiance is an Achenar Class cruiser.

The Enterprise A is listed as of the Enterprise Class, which defines the rebuilt Constitution / Achenar / Tikopai Classes. The Enterprise A was formally the USS Levant (Achenar Class)
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Offline knightstorm

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Franz Joseph's technical manual isn't canon.

Offline Czar Mohab

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Franz Joseph's technical manual isn't canon.


Agreed. Though, it is a "good fun" read that is more fun than anything else. Portions were used as screen and/or audio filler in ST1 through 6, making those portions, and only those portions, canonical.

That confused the hell out of me. I definitely need pictures of all these classes to be able to understand the differences.


Go here. Its all the same ship because, well, its all the same ship. Even in the (non-canonical) tech manual they are just sub-class variants of the parent, Constitution.

A series of command cruiser versions (Endeavour Class) followed and also the more combat orientated Achenar and Tikopai classes. In TOS and ENT the 1764 Defiance is an Achenar Class cruiser.


First its Defiant not Defiance. Second, it is Constitution Class.



The Enterprise A is listed as of the Enterprise Class, which defines the rebuilt Constitution / Achenar / Tikopai Classes. The Enterprise A was formally the USS Levant (Achenar Class)


Enterprise class refers to the bridge simulator only. No starship existed ever under this class designation. It is an admitted studio goof and this is the compromise. Please read this and this and finally this. There really isn't anything to support what the Ent-A used-to-was, if anything, prior to ST4. Except this:

Quote from: Memory Alpha
According to Gene Roddenberry, the NCC-1701-A was not a newly-constructed ship, but instead was the renamed USS Yorktown, a nod to the name of the starship in his original pitch for Star Trek. This was based on the fact that it was difficult to believe that Starfleet would build a whole new ship in such a short time, and then decommission it a short while after, and the early retirement of the Enterprise-A could be justified if the ship had been in service for many years under another name.


While not "on screen evidence", variations on this statement have floated around for decades, and I find anything coming from GR automatically more accurate and reliable than anything from Franz.

there were 12 x Constitution Class cruisers originally.

10 were actually new builds and two were rebuilds of previous similar classes (1017 Constellation (formally Horizon Class) and 1371 Republic (Republic Class))


There exists enough on screen evidence to support the 12 Constitution theory. While the Republic and Constellation may be old there is no evidence of either being of a prior class; however, this does not mean that a vessel of the same name could not have been of a different class.

In TOS the Republic is hinted at being a cadet training ship for final year academy students.


...and remained as such until at least 2374. See also DS9:"Valiant".

What ever happened to the Constitution classes I read everything there is on alphawikia and it really doesn't say except they were in service 20 more years after there major refit?

What really is the Enterprise A a new class or is it the renamed Yorkown alphawikia doesn't say much on this.It does seem different than all the other refits?

What is the difference between these ships and the Constellation class?What do you believe or your thoughts or interpretet?

The first two are more conjucture questions.I am just missing that old stlye of Trek these days.


Constitution production ended, but the ships still hung around. Republic was a trainer vessel at Earth as late as 2374. An unknown Connie was lost at Wolf 359 to the Borg. Tough little ships.

*image removed due to EAS douche-baggery*

Enterprise's sets were refurbished into things such as alien vessels, the Ent-D, etc. and new parts needed to be built, notably the bridge (the engine room in ST6 is VERY obviously a redress of the Ent-D engine room). However, The Ent-A was just a refit Constitution just like the Enterprise it replaced.

Constellation class vessels only exist because Gene wanted something non-Constitution to have been what Picard once had served on as Captain... Constellations are newer but just old enough for a "young" Captain Picard to have had some serious fun in "back in the day". Stargazer originally was Constitution but Gene changed it in mid-stride to Constellation (even re-dubbing the line Geordi spoke from one to the other).

Constellations are literally new heavy cruisers - they fill the role left by the aged and retiring Connies.

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Offline knightstorm

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A few things, The memory alpha post on the A is not completely accurate.  The A was obviously a new ship as evidenced by the issues it was having in STV.  Roddenbery's statement was that a new ship could not have been built between Kirk's trial and the scene where they were ferried to the Enterprise.  Furthermore, contrary to what that idiot wrote on memory alpha Starfleet was not initially planning to decommission the A until it received battle damage.  The dialogue in the film clearly indicates that the A was originally supposed to continue in service with a new command crew.  In particular there's a scene where Spock offers to recommend Valaris for the spot as first officer.  The ship would have presumably had decades of service left, although I imagine Starfleet would have changed the name again to free up Enterprise for a more advanced ship.  Finally, most of the A's sets were originally TMP sets that got converted into TNG sets when the series went into production.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 02:29:06 pm by knightstorm »

Offline Czar Mohab

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A few things, The memory alpha post on the A is not completely accurate.  The A was obviously a new ship as evidenced by the issues it was having in STV.


That statement makes the refit Ent also a new construction, which it is not. The refit Ent had just as many "new ship" problems as the Ent-A. It is theoretical the Ent-A is new construction, and the argument can easily be supported for both sides, however, it is in no way obvious one way or the other.

Roddenbery's statement was that a new ship could not have been built between Kirk's trial and the scene where they were ferried to the Enterprise. 


New or used is irrelevant. I agree that it isn't a "*poof* here's your new ship fresh off the presses!" ship, but the next hull of the class that was available to have the name slapped on the hull. Also, read this and see also this thread that is exactly the same argument.


Furthermore, contrary to what that idiot wrote on memory alpha Starfleet was not initially planning to decommission the A until it received battle damage.  The dialogue in the film clearly indicates that the A was originally supposed to continue in service with a new command crew.  In particular there's a scene where Spock offers to recommend Valaris for the spot as first officer.  The ship would have presumably had decades of service left, although I imagine Starfleet would have changed the name again to free up Enterprise for a more advanced ship.


I am neither sober nor coherent enough to argue or agree with this adequately at this time.

Finally, most of the A's sets were originally TMP sets that got converted into TNG sets when the series went into production.


Agreed. The sets from ST1-3ish went to TNG... TNG was the new thing around ST4. ST4ish-6 needed everything redone, redressed from their TNG versions back to ST5-6 time frame. TNG was the set redress king, imo. Watch seasons 1-4 and count how many times you see the battle bridge, but not as the battle bridge.

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Offline knightstorm

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Roddenbery's statement was that a new ship could not have been built between Kirk's trial and the scene where they were ferried to the Enterprise. 


New or used is irrelevant. I agree that it isn't a "*poof* here's your new ship fresh off the presses!" ship, but the next hull of the class that was available to have the name slapped on the hull. Also, read this and see also this thread that is exactly the same argument.




Even if the A was the Yorktown featured in STIV, it doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't a new ship.  Starfleet would have deployed everything they had in an effort to protect earth, even a ship that just left the shipyard.

Offline Age

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Thanks kinghtstrom and all.I do want the canon facts to it all.I rewatched Wolf 359 and did see a Const. hull in there.

It sure would of been nice if they continued using A past ST6 with different crew even though it was damaged.

I am just a little tired of seeing TNG ships atm.

Offline Age

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According to the Franz Joseph - Starfleet Techincal Manual (one which SFB and SFC has its core based) there were 12 x Constitution Class cruisers originally.

10 were actually new builds and two were rebuilds of previous similar classes (1017 Constellation (formally Horizon Class) and 1371 Republic (Republic Class))

In TOS the Republic is hinted at being a cadet training ship for final year academy students.

A series of command cruiser versions (Endeavour Class) followed and also the more combat orientated Achenar and Tikopai classes. In TOS and ENT the 1764 Defiance is an Achenar Class cruiser.

The Enterprise A is listed as of the Enterprise Class, which defines the rebuilt Constitution / Achenar / Tikopai Classes. The Enterprise A was formally the USS Levant (Achenar Class)

That confused the hell out of me. I definitely need pictures of all these classes to be able to understand the differences.
According to the Franz Joseph - Starfleet Techincal Manual (one which SFB and SFC has its core based) there were 12 x Constitution Class cruisers originally.

10 were actually new builds and two were rebuilds of previous similar classes (1017 Constellation (formally Horizon Class) and 1371 Republic (Republic Class))

In TOS the Republic is hinted at being a cadet training ship for final year academy students.

A series of command cruiser versions (Endeavour Class) followed and also the more combat orientated Achenar and Tikopai classes. In TOS and ENT the 1764 Defiance is an Achenar Class cruiser.

The Enterprise A is listed as of the Enterprise Class, which defines the rebuilt Constitution / Achenar / Tikopai Classes. The Enterprise A was formally the USS Levant (Achenar Class)

That confused the hell out of me. I definitely need pictures of all these classes to be able to understand the differences.
There are lots of videos on youtube that show these and google the ones you want and check images.

Offline Age

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Sorry for the Necro but I don't want to make samll thread.

I just want to say I got them as to the reference of the name being a D2 player.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Lafayette_%28NCC-1720%29

Quote
he Lafayette was refit to the Enterprise-subclass specifications, outfitted as a command cruiser (CC), by the 2280s decade. The ship was easily modifiable with additional technology to become the advanced command cruiser (CC+). (ST video game: Starfleet Command)


Which is actually Warrior.

Offline Don Karnage

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Constitution class came from TNG when Picard go to the holodeck and see the bridge of the Enterprise NCC 1701. Its call a starship class. So why did he sais that it was a Constitution class?

As for the Enterprise A I think that the assembling was maybe more of a refit of a "Constitution class" or that they repair of the Yorktown that was damage? by the probe. It might be that they where building another one, but why would the decommission it just after 5 years? So the theory of a repair ship seem more probable. But if they use the Yorktown and re name it Enterprise, its kinda sad for the captain and crew of that ship to lose it so they can rename it and give it to Kirk.

But for the registry number of ship before 1700, there is the Constellation, the Defiant, the other ship that crew die from a virus and maybe other one.

We don't know what happen to the other 12 "Constitution" Well the Intrepid I think that was use by Vulcan, the Defiant, well maybe not since its number was not part of the 12 originals. Same thing for the Constellation. There was one who was destroyed by the M5.

Offline knightstorm

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Constitution class came from TNG when Picard go to the holodeck and see the bridge of the Enterprise NCC 1701. Its call a starship class. So why did he sais that it was a Constitution class?

As for the Enterprise A I think that the assembling was maybe more of a refit of a "Constitution class" or that they repair of the Yorktown that was damage? by the probe. It might be that they where building another one, but why would the decommission it just after 5 years? So the theory of a repair ship seem more probable. But if they use the Yorktown and re name it Enterprise, its kinda sad for the captain and crew of that ship to lose it so they can rename it and give it to Kirk.

But for the registry number of ship before 1700, there is the Constellation, the Defiant, the other ship that crew die from a virus and maybe other one.

We don't know what happen to the other 12 "Constitution" Well the Intrepid I think that was use by Vulcan, the Defiant, well maybe not since its number was not part of the 12 originals. Same thing for the Constellation. There was one who was destroyed by the M5.

Constitution class was a behind the scenes name that was used during the production of TOS.  It was written on the schematics that Franz Joseph looked at when he was writing his manual, and popularized the name to the fans.  The first canon reference was in the TNG season one episode "The Naked Now."  As for the Yorktown in ST IV, my feeling is that if it was the A, it was a newly built ship that wasn't ready, but was pressed into service with a temporary crew due to the probe.

Offline Don Karnage

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Well its the name class show here.


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Starship class can be taken as being at a higher level to indicate any warship designed for interstellar capability.  That idea can be taken further with Enterprise class being a subset of Constitution class.  The Enterprise A is at the top level a Starship class, then Constitution then specifically an Enterprise class.  Just as Humans are also primates, mammals and vertebrates.  Depending which level you are indicating you can use any of them accurately. 
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Offline knightstorm

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During the production of TOS, Roddenbery had to constantly battle the network which wanted the show to be campier.  As a result, he made a series of compromises.  Referring to the Enterprise as a Starship class space cruiser was one of them.  The first season of TNG made it clear that the ship was a Constitution class starship.

Offline Don Karnage

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We still have to post a list of the 13 original ship and what happen to them (as far as we know it)

The Exeter I think whit the virus that kill its crew, the Defiant, the Constellation (if its part of the 13 original) and so on.

But since there are no (official data) on what happen to the fleet, beside what we have see in TOS.

Still its interesting to find info on the fleet. Speculation on the Constellation that was a Asia class and refit as a Constitution class due to his registry number, or that they just keep a old registry number and name to stick it to a Constitution class.

So we just have to swallow the pill and get on with our life  :crazy2: 

Offline knightstorm

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Speculation on the Constellation that was a Asia class and refit as a Constitution class due to his registry number, or that they just keep a old registry number and name to stick it to a Constitution class.

So we just have to swallow the pill and get on with our life  :crazy2:

The Constellation was an AMT model kit Enterprise that had its numbers re-arranged because they didn't even have the budget to create a custom decal.  The registry numbers don't make any sense.  Don't try to assign any sort of order or numbering method to them, it won't work.

Offline TAnimaL

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Way back, in the day as they said, some fan was pushing the idea that "NCC" stood for "Navigational Contact Code," for communications purposes, and not a "construction build order." Makes tons more sense to me. I know "naval construction contract" has become the accepted interpretation, but, if no one's ever said that in a ep/film, technically it's not canon yet...

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Typically I tend to take Franz Joseph's manual as the "Source" for the real ships and their Hull Numbers.  Everyone wants to use the "Court-Martial" wall graphic as "The Fleet"  And make them all Constitutions.  Makes NO SENSE at all.  All of those ships were listed as damaged in some way.  To me... that's the ships that are at the Starbase, or nearby.  If that's every Constitution in the fleet, then this Starbase better be pretty near the Core of the Federation otherwise someone could take a huge chunk of Federation Real Estate before the fleet could respond.

We really only know the fates of a few ships.

Intrepid: destroyed by the space amoeba.
Constellation: destroyed by Planet Killer.
Exeter: Crew killed by dehydration/crystallization virus.  I would assume that the ship could be purged and returned to duty.
Defiant: Lost in Disputed Territory with the Tholian Assembly.  Presumed intact, although pulled through some space time rift through which it would be unlikely to be recovered. (Space time rift turned out to be a dimensional and time rift that transported the Defiant into the Mirror Universe)
Excalibur: Heavily Damaged, script mentions destroyed, but is possibly salvageable from on-screen evidence.  (Given that this was the first CC assigned to me in SFC1, I've kinda taken it as my personal ship, and said that it was recovered and rebuilt)

Other ships that were not lost and mentioned.
Constitution:  Seen in Court Martial (remastered)
Lexington: Seen in The Ultimate Computer
Hood: Seen in The Ultimate Computer
Potemkin: Seen in The Ultimate Computer
Republic: Mentioned in Court Martial (Not confirmed to be Constitution, but hull number 1371, even the DS9 episode Valiant mentions the Republic, but does not mention it's class, it is ASSUMED to be Constitution Class)
Antares: Seen in Charlie X. (remastered)  I don't know if this one was ever assumed to be a Constitution or not, but the remastered episode shows that it was not.
Yorktown: Disabled by Whale Probe in STIV. (mentioned only)  Fate of crew unknown.  Given that they were making heavy use of Franz Josephs Material in the movies and the first couple of seasons of TNG, I believe it is safe to assume that it is a Constitution.  This MAY be the ship that is re-commissioned as the 1701-A, should the crew have been killed by the probe.

*Edit, originally stated Valiant for the Space Amoeba, it is actually the Intrepid, the Valiant was the 200 year old ship that was destroyed by coming in contact with the Galactic Barrier.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 02:46:46 pm by Lieutenant_Q »
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Offline TAnimaL

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Personally I've come to loath the FJ manual over the years and think it's about "canon" as that chart in "Court Martial" - too much can be inferred/assumed from the glimpses we see. The Yorktown in STIV could have been anything, and while the hypothesis that it was re-commisioned as 1701-A is popular, there's nothing on-screen about it ever. Like Don Karnage sez, we'll just have to move on with our lives.

There's anecdotal evidence from STV that 1701-A was a new ship, with "fine engines but the ship must have been put together by monkeys! Half the doors won't work!", as Scotty puts it. It's always possible that it was a recommission that got new engines though.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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It is inferred that it is a new ship, with a boat load of shakedown glitches that need to be resolved, but its also possible that the Whale Probe did serious damage to it's systems (and possibly the chief engineer's attempts at saving the crew helped in that regard) which gave it a bunch of glitches.  I am really of the opinion that it is not the Yorktown, to me it makes little sense to re-commission an active ship with a history of it's own just to give an insubordinate Captain and crew a ship that bore the name of their previous ship (even if his insubordination ultimately led to the saving of a planet that was rapidly becoming one of the most important in the Federation).  If it was a ship that was just about to be commissioned, fine.

It's just real hard to overlook the fact that so much of FJ's work was used in the movies, and TNG, I have to go with his work on the fleet.
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Offline knightstorm

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I think it is the Yorktown, but not the same Yorktown as TOS.  If the crisis is pressing enough, they could have pressed a newly completed ship with glitches into service.  There is real world precedent.  The HMS Prince of Wales still had civillian contractors onboard, and was experiencing teething problems with its main battery when it confronted Bismark.

Offline TAnimaL

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A "recommission an existing ship as 1701A" does also makes sense for why Enterprise-A was "retired" (along with it's crew) a few years later after STVI (about 5 according to the official timeline). Yorktown or not, a ship undergoing recent refit or upgrade could be ready much quicker than a new build, and then be used for a few years and still reach it's end of life after STVI.

Then again, we don't know enough about Fleet Ops, build schedules, phase out of equipment types - there might be plenty of reasons to replace the Constitution+ ships with the Excelsior types. I know! Maybe the Connies were Windows XXP and MS had discontinued support! We know after the disastrous MacOSX/Excelsior interface failure in STIII that they switched them to something else. Maybe Linux  :D

Don't give the credit to FJ, Q, you did a great job back there squaring ship names to actual canon appearances.

Offline knightstorm

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The A was decommissioned due to battle damage and a pending arms limitations treaty.  The dialogue from earlier in the film indicated that it was originally planned for the ship to remain in service with a different crew.  Unless Spock was going senile when he offered to recommend Valaris for the role as first officer upon his retirement.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Wow... Something I just realized... When Kirk mentioned to Captain Christopher in Tommorow is Yesterday that there's 12 like her in the fleet.  I had just listed 11 Constitution Ships (if I we count the Yorktown and the Republic as Constitutions)  Coincidence?  Add Enterprise and that makes 12.  Is it possible that that's all the Constitutions that they built?
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Offline TAnimaL

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At the time that ep was written, yes, as per what's mentioned in "The Making of Star Trek," from the TOS writer's guide, p. 203. That was the intent of the producer's at the time but can (too easily) drawn into question, hence this thread. I'm surprised this hasn't been linked to yet, but the best "facts" we can collect are listed here:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Constitution_class

Since "twelve like her in the fleet" can be read to exclude any variants and/or missing & destroyed, and that on-screen lists like seen in "Court Martial" chart don't assign ship names to classes, it's really open to interpretation. As you can read in the article linked above, there was a definite intent to include "historic" names from different nationalities. Heck, 1701 and her sisters were never even called "Consitution-class" on-screen until TNG's "The Naked Now." So I'm sure this is topic without any real end.

I can see the point about the battle-damage in ST6 but no such arms limitation treaty is ever mentioned. An interesting idea but with the scores of Excelsiors about to be uilt, I don't see it.

Offline knightstorm

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The arms limitation treaty was the whole point of the film.  Gorkon was being transported to earth for peace talks which would have involved dismantling of space stations and starbases along the neutralzone along the neutral zone.  The people at the meeting also seemed to believe that such reductions would also likely involve mothballing part of the fleet

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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That part of the dialog made no sense at all... I know they were trying to draw a lot of Cold War references there.  Soviets (Klingons) vs. NATO (Federation)  But there is a different situational reality.  What about the Romulans?  I'm sure their grand plans for a universe dominated by them would be bolstered by a peace treaty between the two other powers that included a significant reduction in both nation's navy.  Gorn, Tholians, even if there had been no contact with the Cardassians or the Ferengi at that point in time, who is to say that the Klingons are the ONLY threat to the Federation?
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yeah, the dialog there isn't the best. "Bill, are talking about mothballing Starfleet??" No you idiot, you remeber that exploration thing we used to do? The plot of the film was to relax the tensions between the Klingons and Fed, and starbases along the neutral zone must mean a different thing than starships, making the whole thing an (painfully) obvious Cold War analogy. Much like the U.S. initiative in the 80s to stop matching the Soviets in building nukes and concentrate on "strategic defense" made the Soviets feel like they could relax their posture.

Offline knightstorm

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That part of the dialog made no sense at all... I know they were trying to draw a lot of Cold War references there.  Soviets (Klingons) vs. NATO (Federation)  But there is a different situational reality.  What about the Romulans?  I'm sure their grand plans for a universe dominated by them would be bolstered by a peace treaty between the two other powers that included a significant reduction in both nation's navy.  Gorn, Tholians, even if there had been no contact with the Cardassians or the Ferengi at that point in time, who is to say that the Klingons are the ONLY threat to the Federation?

I think the idea is that they're diverting forces away from their mutual border.  Remember, even with the other powers a large portion of Starfleet would have had to be stationed at the Klingon border at all times.  They could have also included escalator clauses in the treaty to allow them to increase their fleets to deal with any precieved foreign threats.

yeah, the dialog there isn't the best. "Bill, are talking about mothballing Starfleet??" No you idiot, you remeber that exploration thing we used to do? The plot of the film was to relax the tensions between the Klingons and Fed, and starbases along the neutral zone must mean a different thing than starships, making the whole thing an (painfully) obvious Cold War analogy. Much like the U.S. initiative in the 80s to stop matching the Soviets in building nukes and concentrate on "strategic defense" made the Soviets feel like they could relax their posture.

I'm thinking that while the film was analogous to the end of the cold war, agreements that they might have reached would have been more analogous to the naval arms limitations treaties of the 1920s and 1930s.

Offline TAnimaL

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Fair point, and this brings it back to what I was saying - there's no line saying "the Connies are being retired because they're old, or being dismantled because of an arms treaty, etc" or any other on-screen mention, they just stop. It'll remain another unsolved TOS mystery, open to interpretation forever.

I don't play ST Online but apparently there's a 2400s-era "refit" of some Constitution-class. An interesting notion to see them still flying, although I completely agree with why the producers chose to avoid seeing Connies throughout TNG et. al.

Offline Corbomite

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Fair point, and this brings it back to what I was saying - there's no line saying "the Connies are being retired because they're old, or being dismantled because of an arms treaty, etc" or any other on-screen mention, they just stop. It'll remain another unsolved TOS mystery, open to interpretation forever.


The nearest reference to that on-screen is in STIII when Kirk is first pressing the commander of Starfleet to allow him to take the Enterprise back to Genesis and the commander orders Scotty to the Excelsior stating that there will be no refit of Enterprise due to her age. Whether that means that they were phasing out the design entirely or replacing it with a newer version is unclear, but it is entirely possible that 1701-A was the last of her kind to be built. Those newer versions could have been refit and used as training ships and auxiliaries well into the next century.

Offline TAnimaL

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yeah, it's always about Enterprise, isn't it? The refit 1701 was definitely 40 years old (despite the dialog in the movie that sez 20), so we can infer that, if 1701A is a renamed older Connie "Yorktown," it's up there in years too and ready to be retired, as opposed to a recent (ST4 era) build that's being phased out.

Offline knightstorm

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Fair point, and this brings it back to what I was saying - there's no line saying "the Connies are being retired because they're old, or being dismantled because of an arms treaty, etc" or any other on-screen mention, they just stop. It'll remain another unsolved TOS mystery, open to interpretation forever.

I don't play ST Online but apparently there's a 2400s-era "refit" of some Constitution-class. An interesting notion to see them still flying, although I completely agree with why the producers chose to avoid seeing Connies throughout TNG et. al.

I said pending treaty.  They never said anything explicitly but, Its likely that if negotiations went forward, the federation would have ended up signing a treaty which would have required them to scrap a bunch of Constitutions.  The Enterprise would probably have remained mothballed until negotiations were concluded, and the treaty was signed.

That said, some Constitution class ships apparently survived the treaties and were still in service in the late 24th century as is evidenced by the wreckage in The Best of Both Worlds and The Sound of Her Voice.

Offline TAnimaL

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again, all supposition on your part. We'll never really know, will we?

Offline knightstorm

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Well, I remember reading that Berman confirmed that the wreckage seen in The Sound of Her Voice had been from a Constitution class ship.

Offline Corbomite

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They were so hurting for ships that that was the one in the fleet museum that Picard referred to in Relics. ;)  Heck, you saw what they had to do to get 23 ships to make a blockade in the Klingon Civil War, it wouldn't surprise me.

Offline knightstorm

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According to the episode, the USS Olympia was on an 8 year long exploratory mission of the Beta Quadrant. I very much doubt that a Constitution Class even refitted would be sent out that far with the current level of technology the Federation has at its disposal. It was more likely even if we had Constitution vessels in service; they were either transports or training vessels. But to take a long mission like that. Hmmm. Sounds fishy to me.

Why not, modern Miranda class ships were still seeing front line action in the Dominion war.  The Constitutions had the range, and with modernization would have had the space to accommodate improved labs and sensors.

They were so hurting for ships that that was the one in the fleet museum that Picard referred to in Relics. ;)  Heck, you saw what they had to do to get 23 ships to make a blockade in the Klingon Civil War, it wouldn't surprise me.

Since he recognized it from the TOS bridge, its possible the ship he was referring to never received a TMP rebuild.

Offline knightstorm

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I guess its a difference of opinion about the theoretical defensive capabilities of a modernized Constitution class.  I think they would be similar to the Interpid class, but I don't really have any evidence to prove that claim.

Offline Vipre

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Quote
but seriously a Connie into the depths of the Beta Quadrant.

Confusing the Beta Q with Delta or Gamma perhaps? Beta is Fed/Klink backyard. Besides 8 years doesn't mean one way, they were probably never out of contact.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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The Saratoga was apparently a line ship.  There wasn't any mention of Sisko being assigned to it in an emergency, and if he was... why was his wife and child aboard?  The Miranda seems to be a modular cruiser when it was debuted near the end of the Constitution's service life.  It was probably in the range of the New Heavy, or New Light Cruiser.  I really wouldn't call it a war cruiser as the Federation really didn't have any war to be fighting at the time.  By the time of DS9, the Miranda was an aging Frigate, but its ability to be modified to different roles made it still useful.

That said, anyone think the Olympia could have been a Constellation?  Seems strange to use something as big as an Ambassador for a deep space probe.  The Constellation seems to be about the right size, and remember it wasn't eight years from the episode, she had been dead for a while when the Defiant finally found her, it may have been the Olympia's last planned mission before her retirement.
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Offline Corbomite

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I don't see the Connie as a pure science vessel so far fetched. Those hulls have a lot of room and if you reduce the crew size to, say around 100, all those quarters and rec facilities refitted for science and storage, not to mention less life support and food needs, it seems the perfect hull for long range exploration with minimal weapons, heavy defense and a good top speed. Remember the problems the Equinox faced in the Delta Quadrant since it was a short range science vessel and well out of its range of operation? We know that they were sending Ambassador class to the Beta Quadrant since isn't that where Sulu was returning from in the beginning of STVI?

Offline Vipre

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Confusing the Beta Q with Delta or Gamma perhaps? Beta is Fed/Klink backyard. Besides 8 years doesn't mean one way, they were probably never out of contact.

It was far enough that no one noticed it disappeared otherwise once contact would have been made with Defiant, the computers would have had a side note stating, "missing" and  sure the crew would have briefed Sisko on that.

Good point.

 I'm liking that Constellation theory, hadn't even occurred as an option but it fits so nicely.

The onscreen shot was clearly Contitution-esque (yeah, same model parts and all but still) and surely you don't lose track and forget about one of the biggest ships in the fleet. A small nearly outdated exploration craft on the other hand...
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Offline knightstorm

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The Constellation class was considered unsuccessful.  Picard described them as being "underpowered and overworked."

Offline Vipre

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Unsuccessful designs don't spend 70 years in service.  Picard himself commanded the Stargazer for 22 years.
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Offline TAnimaL

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Yes, we saw too many Constellations for them to be considered "failure", and Picard only described Stargazer not as a failure but as "underpowered and overworked." Sounds like my 75 Jeep, but it still gets around just fine. :)

The Beta quadrant is, um, one-quarter of the galaxy, remember? something like 120 million cubic lightyears there. Plenty of room to wander and be far from home. That said, the reuse of some minatures hardly really means Olympia was a Connie...

(edit-posted too early, stoopid doorbell)

IIRC, we don't actually see much of Olympia in that ep, do we? I'm not seeing any on Trekcore screencaps
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 01:19:34 pm by TAnimaL »

Offline Corbomite

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Well Sulu's ship was an Excelsior Class not Ambassador Class.


I never remember what they call those ugly ass things.

Offline TAnimaL

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uh, yeah, if this is Olympia



good luck telling what is used to be

Offline Corbomite

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Looks more like Grissom than Enterprise. Or maybe the freighter.

Offline TAnimaL

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Another thing that's always bugged me is the notion that ships like the Connie hull seen in "BOBW" as being "ships pulled out of mothballs for emergencies." I live nearby a US navy yard where many ships are mothballed, and I'm sure it would take weeks to get those ships back into active service. Maybe Starfleet is more efficient in the 24th century, but still, it's not like they're sitting there gassed and ready to go.

As far as the "mystery BOBW Connie" being a museum ship, it just so happens I also live very nearby the USS Olympia, a museum ship of Commodore Dewey's flagship. Trust me, if the Navy is ever so desperate to try to use that in an emergency, it's time to throw in the towel. :D

Maybe there are a few Connies still on active duty? Or maybe there's another starship that shares a similar secondary hull. Maybe another Franz Joseph cut-and-paste job...

Again, we'll never really know...

Offline Corbomite

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Well Admrial Hanson did say they were getting ready for the Borg and that they showed up early. Maybe part of that was unmothballing older ships to to allow for newer ships to be brought in and refitted with better weapons and such. When the Borg showed up prematurely they just threw what they had at them.

Offline knightstorm

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Unsuccessful designs don't spend 70 years in service.  Picard himself commanded the Stargazer for 22 years.

Midway class aircraft carriers never had ideal handling characteristics, but they served in the USN for 47 years.

Another thing that's always bugged me is the notion that ships like the Connie hull seen in "BOBW" as being "ships pulled out of mothballs for emergencies." I live nearby a US navy yard where many ships are mothballed, and I'm sure it would take weeks to get those ships back into active service. Maybe Starfleet is more efficient in the 24th century, but still, it's not like they're sitting there gassed and ready to go.



I think the turn around time for reactivating a reserve ship is supposed to be six months.  Whether or not it can be done in six months is another story.

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Our current military.

Offline Tulwar

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First, I have no use for the "Enterprise Class."  Artistically, it makes the hero starship of the story too self-important, and thus bad fiction.  Calling the differences a "refit."  It's just a convention to prepare the audience for a bigger, prettier model of the hero ship.  While it would be nice to give the completely different class would be nice, but properly, it's a refit.  The name "Enterprise Class" simply comes from some dialog about a training bridge simulator that looked like a Constitution refit bridge, which would have been exactly like the bridge of the USS Enterprise.  While I would chalk this up as a bit of piece lazy dialog
or flubbed lines going into production, it seems that anything that makes it to film is cannon.  Even so, that could still be taken as the "Enterprise Class" only exists as a holodeck simulation.  The Enterprise itself is not an "Enterprise Class" starship.

In TOS, starships were very few and very far between.  I'm not talking about the ST Universe as fleshed out from many decades of the franchise, but what was presented in the late 1960's.  The Constitution Class starship might have been the backbone of Starfleet, but Starfleet wasn't that big.  When you watch the movies, ships were so scarce they were forced to take the new Enterprises out of stardock, before they were fully operational.  In the case of TMP, STV, and Generations, they severely strained credibility.  As ST advanced to TNG, there were a lot more starships.  This would be natural, as the Federation grew, and more and more starships were made from an ever increasing industrial base.  This would mean an exponential growth in the number of starships.

Constitution class cruisers were in service before Kirk ever commanded one.  As a matter of fact, if you follow the SFB description of the development of the Fed CA, the entire engineering hull with its warp engine nacelles is an add-on.was built in under an existing sub-light "flying saucer."  This makes the "Connie" appear to be a very old design.  As there were fewer shipyards in the olden days, fewer ships were made, so the older the design means the more rare the design.

The Miranda class makes it debut in ST2 WoK.  If one examines the model, one finds that it isn't a "light cruiser," but an advanced adaptation of the Enterprise's design with more phasers, a significantly larger torpedo bay, and twice the shuttle bays, using similar power plants in a far more efficient layout.  While the descendants of Constitution design must have had some advantage allowing the 1701-A to be produced, one could easily see this design supplanting the older design.  In fact, the readiness of Starfleet's to simply scrap fairly new, if battle damaged Constitution refits, shows that this design was getting long in the tooth back in Kirk's day.

In my humble opinion, the Constitutions were rare in TOS timeline, and were being produced in very limited numbers since then, with the 1701-A being the very last.  By the time of TNG, most of the old Constitution Class cruisers would have been lost or scrapped.  I would only expect to see one as a training ship.

That being said, I still think the Constitution Refit is the finest model ever created for ST.  Every other Federation ship is a dog by comparison.  The Klingon K'Tinga despite having too many gimblies is a fitting beauty.  Aside from those, except a few fan-made designs, very few ST models come up to the level of "ok."  I would so much appreciate if any new "Kirk and Spock" ST's would use these models.  The JJ-prizes actually hurt my eyes.
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Offline TAnimaL

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The irony being that Constitutions were the only ships we ever saw in the TOS run, so if they're "rare," they do tend to flock together ;)

Offline knightstorm

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The Miranda class makes it debut in ST2 WoK.  If one examines the model, one finds that it isn't a "light cruiser," but an advanced adaptation of the Enterprise's design with more phasers, a significantly larger torpedo bay, and twice the shuttle bays, using similar power plants in a far more efficient layout.

I would argue that the reliant is a CL.   Actually, the refit Constitution has more phasers than the Miranda.  The emitters are visible on the model, but we never saw them fired.  We also don't know how the phasers compare qualitatively.  The only side by side comparison we have of the ships firing phasers is after the Enterprise had its power systems severely damaged.  That might have affected the phaser output.  Likewise, we don't know how the Enterprise's shields compared to the Reliant's.  The Reliant's torpedo bays were not larger, although, they were more numerous.  As for their power plants, just because they looked similar doesn't mean they were.  They were designed around the same time so of course they would look similar.  I don't get how you find the layout more efficient either.  As for the shuttle bays, we really don't know the internal volume of the Miranda's two bays compared to the Constitution's single.

Or as Tulwar stated, maybe the Federation wasn't as big as we thought it was. Hence the smaller area and more reappearances of the Constitutions. Plus, id keep my 12 CAs close to the Klingon/Federation/Romulan border. Clearly these empires can not be trusted. I'll send the rest of the smaller ships we never saw to other more hospitable areas of the Federation ;)

Or, AMT only mass produced one federation Starship model kit.

Offline Tulwar

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I would argue that the reliant is a CL.   Actually, the refit Constitution has more phasers than the Miranda.  The emitters are visible on the model, but we never saw them fired.  We also don't know how the phasers compare qualitatively.  The only side by side comparison we have of the ships firing phasers is after the Enterprise had its power systems severely damaged.  That might have affected the phaser output.  Likewise, we don't know how the Enterprise's shields compared to the Reliant's.  The Reliant's torpedo bays were not larger, although, they were more numerous.  As for their power plants, just because they looked similar doesn't mean they were.  They were designed around the same time so of course they would look similar.  I don't get how you find the layout more efficient either.  As for the shuttle bays, we really don't know the internal volume of the Miranda's two bays compared to the Constitution's single.

I always wanted the Miranda class to be a CL, but looking at it compared to the Constitution Class, it was just too big.  I see all the ST ships through the prism of SFB, so a CL has to have 5/6 the power, so I can't work it that way.  In real life, a CL and CA are the same size, except the CA has heavier guns and armor, while the CL, floating higher on the water, is faster.  Considering the Enterprise and Reliant have similar volumes, the Big-E has an enormous deflector dish to clear the space ahead, while Khan's ship displays more firepower, I'm having an easier time arguing the reverse.

The reason I say the Miranda is a more efficient design is simply because a bigger, single hull is more efficient than two smaller hulls.  You have fewer exterior walls to worry about.  That reduces mass and expense.  What more do you want?

The shuttle bays on the two designs are very different animals.  The Enterprise appears to have a huge bay, designed to temporarily accommodate a fairly large spacecraft, where the Reliant appears unable to accommodate much more than standard shuttles.  This points to wasted space on the Constitution Class, not the Miranda Class.  Simply having two bays gives the Miranda greater flexiblity in conducting shuttle operations. 

Often, militaries will retire a beloved, beautiful, safe design with something unpopular, ugly, and dangerous, like during WWII, the USAAF procured more B-24's than B-17's.  Having Starfleet replace Constitution Class ships with cheaper, less attractive vessels makes sense to me.

The intent of the director who specified what the Reliant needed to look like was that it looked like a fairly even match for the Big-E, and that the audience could easily tell the difference.  That's why the Miranda doesn't appear to have a deflector dish.  The Enterprise can't travel through space without this huge headlight, yet the Reliant doesn't need one at all.  WTF?  You can only make so much sense out of this.  The fact is, ST is a stew with so many cooks that you can't tell weather it's gumbo or curry.  Take what you want and leave the rest.
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Offline TAnimaL

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mmmm had curry last night...

But half (+) the fun we fans have is trying to make sense of the "jigsaw puzzle that doesn't fit." Ultimately you're right Tulwar, too many cooks trying to make TV & movies, not a history of the future, but there's a thrill when you can make some of it fit, IMHO when it's from "canon," the better.

There must be something about the Miranda that's more durable (because we see them from TWOK thru DS9), just like there's a reason that Constitutions were such a workhorse in TOS and not after. Maybe as Miranda came along, the Connies (that were left) could be sent back out to explore, like they were supposed to?

Two things about Miranda-class. IMO, they seem to be just the right size for a CL to a Constitution CA (see below image). As an old-tyme SFB player, to me they seem to be awfully darn close to the SFB Kearsage-class NCL (see other image below). In terms of shuttlebays, and without ever seeing much inside of a Miranda onscreen, the Constitution shuttlebay actually seems small compared to the shuttlebay doors on a Miranda, and they have two of them.

Offline Tulwar

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Your illustration makes it pretty clear that the Miranda has a whole lot more shuttle bay than the Constitution.  The thing that struck me when examining a model of the Reliant was that the addition to the rear of the saucer was so massive that it approximates the volume of the Big-E's engineering hull.  I'm not just about to build a couple of AMT's models, fill them with clay, drop them in buckets, and measure the amount of water they displace, just to see which one is really bigger.  The Miranda isn't so much smaller as it is significantly more compact.

Now, if I accept the creator's notion that starships require a big deflector dish to clear a path ahead of the ship in order to travel at high speed, then I have to disregard the Miranda as an invalid design.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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We had a theory here on dynaverse that the giant "Flash Light" on the Connie was either not required, or redundant, a lean machine like the Miranda or a Constellation didn't need them.  There was assemblies on the side of the deflector dish for the Constitution, that was duplicated on the upper hull of the Miranda and it is possible that those assemblies are, in fact, the Miranda's navigational deflectors.

A Link to the Model thread where we were discussing the "Mini-Deflectors".

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163390616.0.html
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Offline Age

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The Miranda class is a Medium class cruiser not a cl or ca.It is definely smaller than the Constie.



StarTrek Online makes it a Frigate which it not.I can see a Hermes or Saladin but those are DDs.


Quote
Often, militaries will retire a beloved, beautiful, safe design with something unpopular, ugly, and dangerous, like during WWII, the USAAF procured more B-24's than B-17's.  Having Starfleet replace Constitution Class ships with cheaper, less attractive vessels makes sense to me.

The intent of the director who specified what the Reliant needed to look like was that it looked like a fairly even match for the Big-E, and that the audience could easily tell the difference.  That's why the Miranda doesn't appear to have a deflector dish.  The Enterprise can't travel through space without this huge headlight, yet the Reliant doesn't need one at all.  WTF?  You can only make so much sense out of this.  The fact is, ST is a stew with so many cooks that you can't tell weather it's gumbo or curry.  Take what you want and leave the rest.

Starfleet were starting to bring the Excelsior class into commissioning.The Mirandas were cheaper/faster to build.It didn't take that as much of a crew like Constie.It is more economical despite what is said by Picard in First Contact.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 06:12:02 pm by Age »

Offline Tulwar

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The great value of scale models is that they help you imagine the engineering of the ship.  The thing you really notice about the Reliant is that it is a lot bigger than it appears.  The actual difference in volume between a Miranda and Constitution is not enough to put them in different weight categories, so you can lace up their gloves and put them in the same ring!

Apparently, STO gets its notion of a frigate from the FASA role playing game.  The term "frigate" in that game always caused me a lot of confusion.  In historical naval terms, a frigate is a ship that lacks the armor and firepower to be a ship of the line.  I think we can agree that the Miranda Class has sufficient weapons and defenses to be a front line combat vessel.  The next definition that I'm used to is from SFB, where a frigate is the next size down from a destroyer.  This definition goes pretty well with the modern British definition of the frigate.  If I remember correctly, in FASA, a "frigate" seems to be a cruiser sized vessel that is heavily armed and outfitted for ground assault.  Considering the two shuttle bays, this designation fits extremely well.

Since I'm into SFB and not FASA, this is another strike against the Miranda.
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Offline Tulwar

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I prefer the style of TMP myself.  The quality difference between mid-1960's television and late 1970's cinema is night and day.  I personally wonder why producers can't bridge the notion that the original Enterprise should have looked very similar to the TMP starship all along.  For that matter, why did they have to make up the story about the Klingon's appearance?  This is theater.  We have to swallow all sorts of conventions, and all these explanations of why the modern versions don't look like 1960's TV simply draw attention to these conventions, rather than let them lie.  While I considder the TMP Enterprise the most beautiful startship model created, the JJ-prize is the absolute ugliest.
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The only reason Mirandas (and other ships  like the Constellation and Nebula) don't have deflector dishes is because they look terrible on them and there is no place to paste it on and make it look good. Anything based on the original Constitution design (Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy) has one. The Defiant (DS9) didn't have one and no other race in the galaxy seems to need one. If they hadn't made such a big deal of naming and using it it in BOBW you could almost write it off as a localized scanner/sensor suite, which on other vessels is distributed around the hull, but on those vessels with a secondary hull is beefed up some and conveniently placed at the front end and hence their good science/patrol usage role. The "sweeping" deflector could be placed anywhere near the front and doesn't necessarily have to be huge. In fact, the whole notion of a forward facing deflector is opposed by onscreen scenes of ships traveling at high speeds backwards.

Offline knightstorm

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The term "frigate" in that game always caused me a lot of confusion.  In historical naval terms, a frigate is a ship that lacks the armor and firepower to be a ship of the line.  I think we can agree that the Miranda Class has sufficient weapons and defenses to be a front line combat vessel.  The next definition that I'm used to is from SFB, where a frigate is the next size down from a destroyer.  This definition goes pretty well with the modern British definition of the frigate.  If I remember correctly, in FASA, a "frigate" seems to be a cruiser sized vessel that is heavily armed and outfitted for ground assault.  Considering the two shuttle bays, this designation fits extremely well.


The term frigate has constantly changed.  During the age of sail, a frigate had a single gun-deck and was the equivalent of a cruiser while the multi-decker ships of the line were the equivalent of battleships.  During the cold war, the USN used the term for large destroyer type ships which were between destroyers and cruisers in size, while other navys used the term for destroyer escort type ships.  Most of the cold war era "frigates" were eventually reclassified as cruisers, while American destroyer escorts were reclassified as frigates.

Offline knightstorm

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I think the idea of the deflector dish is that in addition to potentially posing a threat to the ships, the particles can cause sensor interference.  A ship with more powerful sensors needs to sweep away a wider area of space so it needs a dish.

Offline TAnimaL

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It stands to reason that in "real" starships there's no "one-size-fits-all" and those "mini-deflectors" do fit the bill. When you come down to what we see on screen, it's really only Miranda that's missing a deflector (Defiant has a small one, and Nebula clearly has one). Since we know the Connies are explorers, it's easy to assume that the dish has multiple functions, and they often used it for many other purposes on 1701D.

Whether how you split that hair between "light/medium/new heavy," Mirandas must be cruisers, and since they're smaller than a Constitution heavy cruiser, light is a easier catch-all.

Offline Corbomite

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You're right, I forgot about the small secondary hull on Nebulas. I've never seen schematics of Defiant and I never got the idea it had a deflector dish, just a funny looking nose. I don't know what that thing is on the front of the Stargazer. It looks like a shuttle bay, but I suppose it could be a wide deflector array.

Better examples: Both USS Grissom and USS Pasteur have no visible deflector dish or anything that could be mistaken for one. The Grissom model was used for science ships ever since its introduction.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:56:16 pm by Corbomite »

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Nebulas and Defiants both have Nav Deflectors.  The Defiant is in the nose, it's puny, but so's the ship...  The Nebula's is mounted in the same place as the Galaxy Class.  Just the Nebula didn't have a "Neck" so the deflector is basically squashed right up next to the saucer.  The only two Fed Ships that I recall that do not have deflectors are the Constellation and the Miranda.  Runabouts, I don't remember, but they are also just glorified shuttlecraft, even though Sisko did call them "Starships" in Emissary.

The Oberth, I thought there was a spot on the underside of the Secondary Hull that could be a Nav Deflector, but I can't find a good picture of that part of the ship online... maybe I'll scan through TSFS and see if I can find it or not.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Corbomite

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http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/miranda-class-starship-uss-reliant-ncc-1864.php

I don't know how accurate these are, but this schematic shows several aux navigation deflectors (but curiously no primary that I can find) on the Miranda.

Offline Corbomite

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The only thing on that that looks anything deflector-like is that blue swath at the bottom of the sphere, but that is no more a "dish" than what the Stargazer has. All ships must have some kind of nav deflector, the question is does it need to be a big part of the hull.

Offline Tulwar

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One note about the Constitution's deflector dish:  During TOS, there was only one other fully fleshed out starship capable of high warp, and that was the Klingon battle cruiser.  That ship sported an antenna in the nose, much like the dish on the Enterprises engineering hull.  Just about everything that has been generated since ST TMP redefined this opening as a "torpedo tube."  I think I saw some old material defining the Enterprise's dish as the "deflector dish," but so much old material has been reworked that it's hard to tell which is which.  I do remember seeing diagrams pointing out the dishes as being "sensors" on both ships.

The problem I have with ST starship architecture is that half background information points out this dish as absolutely necessary for basic interstellar navigation, and it carries over on redesigns of the Federation CA for hundreds of years, consuming an enormous portion of the hull, but it only seems necessary for the hero ship.  Well the Cardasians have something like it, and then it gets used as a beam emitter, but then, they don't have proper warp engine nacelles either, do they?  The dish becomes an anachronism, just to connect the ST series together.  The Enterprise 1701-Z should not have to conform to this layout.  What this shows is that the ST franchise has spanned such a long period of time, and has had so many alien spacecraft that the strands continuity become senseless in themselves.


Whether how you split that hair between "light/medium/new heavy," Mirandas must be cruisers, and since they're smaller than a Constitution heavy cruiser, light is a easier catch-all.

A lot of use have fairly fixed ideas and have even built models of what a CL contemporary of a Constitution CA should look like, and it isn't necessarily a Miranda.
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Offline TAnimaL

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No one is saying that there aren't other light cruisers, medium cruisers, etc. It's just that Miranda fits in there someplace instead of destroyer or frigates (unless you go with that USN Cold War definition of "frigate", which just confuses things).

Below is a pic I just snapped of my Stargazer model; it seems painfuly obvious that the front section is a deflector, similar to what they put on NX-01. Considering there are 6 other "garage doors" on the port/starboard side of Stargazer, another shuttlebay up front makes no sense at all.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Well, one thing about classifying a Miranda as a Frigate, is you have to remember that by the time of DS9, the design is over 80 years old.  It may have debuted as a Cruiser, but the ship was apparently designed to be easily refitted.  Which is why it would still be in service maybe 100 years after it first launched.  How many WWI era ships (even if they could be refitted with modern technology) would retain their previous classification?  Would a WWI era Cruiser still be able to keep up with even a Cold War era Cruiser?  Probably not, there's only so much refitting you can do to older ships.  Federation designs got bigger, and even the Excelsior, a behemoth at the time of its launch, is itself dwarfed by the Ambassador and Galaxy Classes.  Over time the Miranda, like all Starships, would eventually see a degradation in their classifications.  From Cruiser, to Light Cruiser, to eventually Destroyer or Frigate, the versatility of the Miranda to still be a somewhat effective ship even a century after it's initial launching is a testament to the ship's design and foresight of the engineers. (And the cost consciousness of the Show's producers, who spent all that money on building and designing the Reliant, and didn't want it to be a one time showing)
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Tulwar

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No one is saying that there aren't other light cruisers, medium cruisers, etc. It's just that Miranda fits in there someplace instead of destroyer or frigates (unless you go with that USN Cold War definition of "frigate", which just confuses things).

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?
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Offline Age

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I would say the Miranda is a medium criuser set out to do medium type of assignments as does come with an aux. deflector dish.I did say in my other post that they were cheaper to build and crew than the Constie.

When it comes to SFC it even refers to it as medium cruiser NCM.

The size this might help you out if you look at real models of them.

Unboxing and Review of the Miranda Class USS Reliant by Konami

Offline Tulwar

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I would say the Miranda is a medium criuser set out to do medium type of assignments as does come with an aux. deflector dish.I did say in my other post that they were cheaper to build and crew than the Constie.

When it comes to SFC it even refers to it as medium cruiser NCM.

The size this might help you out if you look at real models of them.



I get my impressions from the big AMT models.  I grew up with SFB, and always thought of the NCL as being a Miranda.  I was expecting the Reliant to have the exact same engines as the Enterprise, but I didn't expect the Miranda to have so many more weapons.  It has 16 phaser emitters compaired to the Constitution's 12, along with a double sized torpedo bay that also fires to the rear.  With all the all gimblies, one could suspect the ship was also equipped with additional auxiliery power.  After looking it over, calling the thing a "light" or "medium" seems just wrong.  The Miranda appears to be a Constitution reworked into a dedicated warship.   When two ships are close in displacement, it is unusual to call the more heavily armed vessel "light" or "medium."  Maybe, we should call the Miranda a "battle cruiser."

This is giving me an idea to through on my personal shiplist:  A Federation battle cruiser.  It will be comparable to the F-CA, eliminating the rear hull.  I'll have to cut the phasers in 2, so I'll give it 6 P-1's and 4 P-3's.  Even as I'm putting in 2 additional APR's 8 photons are too many to charge, so the thing will have 4 photons and 4 Drn-Gs.  It'll need 2 more shuttles and a launch rate of 2.  I'll take out 4 lab, 1 tractor, 1 transporter, and 2 hull.  That is, 2 hull in addition to removing all the rear hull.  Man, this is cheesy!  Even if I don't bump up the shields, I think this might be able to take on a K-C7 by itself.  Romulans definitely don't want a taste of this bad-boy!  Now, what would the Klingons do to answer this nightmare?

In ST, the ships keep getting bigger with every director, so the military notions of destroyers and cruisers is completely meaningless.  Firesoul's shiplist also has a NCA.  SFC uses the weapon schemes from SFB and these do not mesh well with anything after TOS.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Don Karnage

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I don't know if there any info on the firepower of the Miranda class or Reliant class or what ever you think is.

Since in ST2 the Reliant fire only the phaser on the roll bar at the Enterprise. So what are those phaser on the (saucer) for? Those on the roll bar fire forward and back, well the ship don't see that have rear phaser emitter.

In the Fasa book, they consider it to be mega phaser or like cannon phaser. Kinda weird for a small ship to be caring more firepower that a Constitution class. Regular phaser, mega phaser of cannon phaser. Well its more like regular one and still the question is "what are the one on the saucer for?" Sure the do heavy damage to the Enterprise, but it was at close range and shield down. So the Enterprise did get a kick from the Reliant.

Does that mean the Reliant is more powerful that the Enterprise? Newer ship by his number, well the number don't really see to mean its newer.

So what "official" "canon" info is there on this ship?  I will look into my link and see if I can find any info on that ship.

Now about the Defiant (tos) the explanation that the ship was send into the past of the mirror universe seem unlikely.

The Empires would have study and copy the design to make more of its kind, but that happen 100 years before kirk, during that time don't you think they would "improve the design?" Remember that in tos the mirror universe Kirk' Hurura, Scoty and Bones where send in the mirror universe aboard the ISS Enterprise and it was the same tech level with a few differences. But why would the Empires keep its level of technology at the same level during 100 years? Giving time to his enemy to arrive at the same level and able to resit him? To control you must be  stronger. So  during all that time, the enemy could "scan" the ship and "copy" that tech and able to match them. A spy could get info or someone inside the Empires sold tech info to like the Romulan empires.

Offline Don Karnage

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Offline TAnimaL

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Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

No Tulwar, nothing obtuse there, just trying to avoid the flamewars that begin with someone whose name starts with "A" stating flatly that Miranda "IS A MEDIUM CRUISER," or someone else starts in with "I decided it's a frigate." Fanboys do get their panties in a wad over nothing sometimes and I was just trying to sum up that it appears everyone here agrees Miranda is some type of cruiser, not a destroyer. The only canon is what is on screen, not in any manual/book, and even if a non-JJ Trek were to ever come along, I doubt they'll leap to address this "issue." We will never know, and no one will ever be "right" or "wrong" on this.

While the Reliant model might have a bunch of bits on the surface, we never see them used as phasers, so they might not be, or maybe just low powered point defense. Khan seems to have rather use a sneak attack rather than a straight up fight with E, so they at least have to be closely matched. Capt Adam, I always took the code "NCM" just being a contraction of "New Cruiser - Light; Miranda variant" for SFC purposes. Many have imagined what's going on with Miranda (nee Avenger) phasers; below is some data from "Starship Designs" from 1984. Doesn't really answer much ultimately.

Offline TAnimaL

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Don Karange, thanks for those. At least the Ex Astris site stays with the on-screen stuff; as interesting as the ditl.org site is, it becomes a recursive argument using non-canon support to justify more non-canon suppositions. And Cynus X1 is always a good source of the variety of fan-produced schematics & blueprints.

One line of thought on "Enterprise" and "In A Mirror Darkly" Defiant is that the mirror timeline changes after the events of that ep, and the future is changed and not the same one visited by Kirk et. al. in "Mirror Mirror." For me, I rather think that right after "In A Mirror.." ended, "something" happened to Defiant and it was destroyed. The Empire had an idea of what a Connie was but didn't have the ship to duplicate anymore.

Offline Tulwar

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Sorry TAnimal, it's just that you can't call any of this stuff anything.  Whatever you call it is whatever it is for your particular application.  To me, the Miranda is a wild card that doesn't seem to fit in anywhere.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Someone pointed out years ago, when the debate of just what those Phasers on the Miranda are was raging back then,  (It's always amusing when the same debates are had repeatedly) that if you removed the Phaser Banks from the Constitution's or the Miranda's Saucer, they would match exactly the dimensions of the "Mega-Phaser" mounts on the roll-bar.

The Miranda IS better armed than the Constitution.  But not by much.  The Miranda and the Constitution have the same number of saucer Phasers pointing in the same directions.  The Miranda has the two "Roll Bar" Phasers that fire forward and back, for a total of 4 more phasers.  The Constitution has those 4 phasers mounted on the Ventral side of the Engineering hull, presumably covering 360 degrees of the Ventral Arc.  The Miranda has two forward torpedo tubes, and two aft torpedo tubes, while the Constitution only has 2 forward tubes.  Now, a question remains as to whether the Miranda could fire the forward and aft tubes simultaneously, I would say no, but the versatility of being able to fire torpedoes behind you, which the Constitution, lacks gives it an edge in that category.  Also the Constitution has 2 Phaser Banks covering the rear arc (above the shuttle bay) which I do not see any similar mounts on the Miranda.  (understandable, the roll bar covers that arc nicely)  Based on armament, even though the extra versatility of the aft firing torpedoes helps, I can't justify calling the Miranda a Battle Cruiser.  Medium or Heavy Cruiser is what I would say it's initial designation was.  There is also a question of how durable the ship is, while it's hard to determine from TWOK, it does seem that the Enterprise was able to take more damage than the Reliant was.  If it is indeed less durable than the Constitution, then the Miranda has to be designated a Medium Cruiser, it certainly cannot be designated a Battle Cruiser.
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Offline knightstorm

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I get my impressions from the big AMT models.  I grew up with SFB, and always thought of the NCL as being a Miranda.  I was expecting the Reliant to have the exact same engines as the Enterprise, but I didn't expect the Miranda to have so many more weapons.  It has 16 phaser emitters compaired to the Constitution's 12, along with a double sized torpedo bay that also fires to the rear.  With all the all gimblies, one could suspect the ship was also equipped with additional auxiliery power.  After looking it over, calling the thing a "light" or "medium" seems just wrong.  The Miranda appears to be a Constitution reworked into a dedicated warship.   When two ships are close in displacement, it is unusual to call the more heavily armed vessel "light" or "medium."  Maybe, we should call the Miranda a "battle cruiser."


The Enterprise has 18 phaser emitters.  There are six on the secondary hull which were never fired on screen.  And like I said, the only times we've seen the refit Enterprise fire phasers was after its power systems had been severely damaged.  So its very possible that if the ship was undamaged, those phasers would have been significantly more powerful.  Likewise, we have no idea how the ships shields compare.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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I do remember in the first drafts of the scripts it was intended that the Reliant was supposed to be a Constitution Class similar to the Enterprise, but it was later changed so that there was no confusion as to what ship was what.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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That's not exactly what I take from that.  Looking at the On-screen stuff:  The Reliant looks good, right up to the point when the Enterprise blows it to hell.  The Enterprise on the other hand, SHE is the one that looks aged and battered.  Look at her after they stop re-using the TMP footage.  There's clearly rust forming on the ship's engineering hull. (Don't ask me how... rust needs oxygen to form, and that's a little scarce in space... maybe when it was in V'ger's Oxygen/Gravity envelope that allowed them to walk up to V'ger?)
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Tulwar

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When they started writing the script, they were trying to make a believable story behind the Reliant.  It was supposed to of the "Enterprise Class" but a different configuration.  Translated into naval terms, that means that if the Enterprise was a CA, then the Reliant was a CA as well.

The thing is, it was a movie!  The model of the Reliant had to meet the demands of the drama.  The bad guy never shows up on the course with an inferior set of clubs!  The ship couldn't be as pretty as the Big-E, but it had to look like it could hold it's own.  As a matter of fact, they went ahead and made it down right scary with all the weapons on that roll bar.  I mean, when does the bad guy ever show up on the course with a hand-me-down set of clubs?  They had two competing notions going on when they designed it: 1.) A mildly inferior Enterprise.  2.) A really scary ship.  What emerged was a schizoid model which doesn't quite fit anywhere.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 06:57:35 pm by Tulwar »
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Offline Age

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Someone pointed out years ago, when the debate of just what those Phasers on the Miranda are was raging back then,  (It's always amusing when the same debates are had repeatedly) that if you removed the Phaser Banks from the Constitution's or the Miranda's Saucer, they would match exactly the dimensions of the "Mega-Phaser" mounts on the roll-bar.

The Miranda IS better armed than the Constitution.  But not by much.  The Miranda and the Constitution have the same number of saucer Phasers pointing in the same directions.  The Miranda has the two "Roll Bar" Phasers that fire forward and back, for a total of 4 more phasers.  The Constitution has those 4 phasers mounted on the Ventral side of the Engineering hull, presumably covering 360 degrees of the Ventral Arc.  The Miranda has two forward torpedo tubes, and two aft torpedo tubes, while the Constitution only has 2 forward tubes.  Now, a question remains as to whether the Miranda could fire the forward and aft tubes simultaneously, I would say no, but the versatility of being able to fire torpedoes behind you, which the Constitution, lacks gives it an edge in that category.  Also the Constitution has 2 Phaser Banks covering the rear arc (above the shuttle bay) which I do not see any similar mounts on the Miranda.  (understandable, the roll bar covers that arc nicely)  Based on armament, even though the extra versatility of the aft firing torpedoes helps, I can't justify calling the Miranda a Battle Cruiser.  Medium or Heavy Cruiser is what I would say it's initial designation was.  There is also a question of how durable the ship is, while it's hard to determine from TWOK, it does seem that the Enterprise was able to take more damage than the Reliant was.  If it is indeed less durable than the Constitution, then the Miranda has to be designated a Medium Cruiser, it certainly cannot be designated a Battle Cruiser.

You are right in when it comes to the Const. phaser layout and both ships use the same type 7 as well as Miranda phaser cannons.The one thing the Const. has going for it can carry more torpedos.

That is why it is medium cruiser set out for medium types of missions.

This may help
http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/entamain.html as well as this

Quote
Constitution Class Refit-
TMP: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701refitbridge.jpg
TWOK: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-refit-bridge-twok.jpg
Voyage Home: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge-tvh.jpg
Final Frontier: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge-finalfrontier.jpg
Undiscovered Country: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/enterprise-a-bridge.jpg
Shuttle Bay: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701ashuttlebay.jpg
Main Engineering: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/interiors/Original%20Files/1701aenginepic.gif
Master Systems Display: http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/entamain.html
Others to add: The TOS Constitution could have a crew of 430, not 100 as you have it in the game. TOS ship also has a total of 12 phaser banks and at least 6 photon torpedo launchers. It has a rear torpedo launcher as well as rear phasers (use the USS Defiant for reference). The refit has a crew of 432 and has 18 phaser emitters, 2 photon torpedo launchers (and get rid of those red dots at the front of the saucer section, you have no clue how annoying they are and they serve NO purpose). The Refit also used phaser banks, not phaser strips that ships such as the Galaxy Class use: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Constitution_class_refit_configuration_phaser s.jpg. The length of the TOS Constitution is 289 meters.


Quote
Miranda Class-
USS Reliant: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/reliant-bridge.jpg
USS Saratoga NCC-1887: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/saratoga-bridge.jpg
USS Saratoga NCC-31911: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/bridges/saratoga-ds9-bridge.jpg
Corridor:alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Reliant_corridor.jpg[/url]
Crew: Approx. 26-35
Should have phaser banks, not strips: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:USS_Reliant.jpg
Should have an additional weapons slot for aft torpedos.


http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedconstitution&ShipID=6015&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Offline Tulwar

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Sorry Age, but I can't define a "medium type of mission."  All I can glean from this is that the studios attempted to make an older CA, but to build up the drama, they hung more weapons on it.  They overdid it.  They ended up hanging more weapons on the model of the Reliant than they hung on model of the Enterprise.  The Miranda isn't a medium cruiser; it's a screw-up.  The model wasn't designed to fit any role in Starfleet, but purely as a plot device for a specific movie.  It was made to fit one particular role in one particular movie, and then it got recycled over and over again.

This is why I hate the ST canon.  Once something makes it into film or television, it's permanent, no matter how bad it is.  The Miranda is ugly, but the model was used over and over again, because it was something the studio had to put in front of the camera.  With computer animation, the studios are able to create whole fleets ahead of time, and can choose logical models.  Unfortunately, JJ-Trek is in production, and those models are just incredibly ugly.  Hopefully, after JJ-trek, the studios will do something with cool models and interesting plots.  I'm not holding my breath.

The only thing enjoyable about a JJ-Trek is hearing McCoy call Spock "a pointy-eared hobgoblin."
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Offline Corbomite

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Using an original script as a "factual document" is about as useful as trying to carry water in a sieve. A first script is like a battle plan: its perfect until the boots hit the ground, and then everything goes to hell. No script has ever made it to the completion of the film without changes (well, maybe Ed Wood shot what was originally on the page) and they even have a color coded system of pages that tells everyone what has been changed and in what order, so by the end of the shoot the script looks like a rainbow of colored pages. Screen writers never worry about time, money, practicality or manpower needed. They are selling an idea.

Yes it is silly that fans try to turn a haphazard series of events and scenes into a pastiche of sense, but the creators always give you enough to get the story told with enough of a thread of familiarity to make people want to make these connections. Besides, it's fun. SFB managed to make an entire game that made some pretty good sense of those events and scenes, but since they too had to fill in the blanks, it became its own animal, much like these conversations and debates.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 09:16:11 am by Corbomite »

Offline knightstorm

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they hung more weapons on it.

No they didn't.  The Reliant has 2 extra photon tubes, but The Enterprise has 2 extra phaser emitters.


Offline Corbomite

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Yeah, all we really know is that the Miranda has a smaller bowling alley and that they have to use the #2 shuttle bay for crew barbeques.  ;D

Offline Age

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Sorry Age, but I can't define a "medium type of mission."  All I can glean from this is that the studios attempted to make an older CA, but to build up the drama, they hung more weapons on it.  They overdid it.  They ended up hanging more weapons on the model of the Reliant than they hung on model of the Enterprise.  The Miranda isn't a medium cruiser; it's a screw-up.  The model wasn't designed to fit any role in Starfleet, but purely as a plot device for a specific movie.  It was made to fit one particular role in one particular movie, and then it got recycled over and over again.
The medium means it can't stay out of space dock for to long.It is not over done.The Enterprise has just as good of armament or better then the Miranda.Take for eg. the amount of torpedos it can carry 40 compared to the E 120 as wel it has less transporters.It is designed to fit say role of say where a DD would used today.It was designed to replace the old Const. as it is less costly to build and crew.

Miranda Armament : 6 x Type VII phaser bank, total output 3,000 TeraWatts
2 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube with 40 rounds

Const. Refit Armament :18 x Type VII phasers, total output 6,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube with 120 rounds

I wouldn't say it is ugly but that is your opinion it is not up there as one of my favs but then again I am Trek fan.   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 05:18:44 pm by Age »

Offline Tulwar

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I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about how the movie models relate to one another.  You can't say that one has the loner range or carries more torpedoes, because that wasn't told in the stories.  You can say the Enterprise looks faster, but that's about.  There is nothing in the movies that defines the relative rolls of these ships.  Nothing, zip, zero.  In the script, it's called an "Enterprise Class."  That means whatever the Big-E is, heavy cruiser, dreadnought, or fishing trawler, the Reliant was the same thing.

The Miranda is what anybody wants it to be.  For me, the Enterprise is the big, beautiful ship you use for first contact and diplomatic missions, and the Reliant looks like a nasty piece of work you keep in the closet, just in case the Klingons or Romulans come knocking.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Tulwar

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Speaking of Mirandas. I just received the Miranda and Borg Sphere models in the mail. The have a picture in the magazines that clearly shows her aft phaser bank under the impulse drive. Very cool. But the model lacked the wings on the phaser roll bars. Not so cool. FAIL!!!
That's what we get for outsourcing everything. Crap! Ehhh

Adam

What scale are these things?  You remember how AMT screwed up the top of the command hull on the K'tinga.  I've just got back to work on my 1/537 D-5p.  I hope to start getting the hull together soon.  I'm working on Plan C for the gunboat maintenance facilities.  That has to be done first.  There's just not that much room to work with.  Maybe I should have started this in 1/350th scale.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Tulwar

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These look like pretty small scale models.  I think they're being sold at the right price, even if they aren't that accurate.  The problem is that I'm only interested in scale models that are the same scale, and I think most of the ST designs are crap.  I'm not buying dozens of models just to buy the few that are cool, then If the Enterprise refit isn't the same scale as the K'tinga, well....  Need I say more?
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Age

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I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?

Offline knightstorm

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I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?


None of this information is canon.

Offline Age

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I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes and Miranda says 2 but visually we see the reverse.

Adam

What that means is that the refit Con. can fire up to 8 torpedos at one compared to the unrefit Miranda which can only fire 4.The redfit Con. 4 per each tube as the unrefit Miranda 2 per each tube.

This is the refitted Miranda
Armament :18 x Type VII phaser bank12, total output 8,000 TeraWatts
4 x 2nd class photon torpedo tube4 with 150 rounds
source http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Read here for what its purpose is
http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6040&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6041&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

It says it is more of Destroyer than anything else.Itis like the Hermes or Saladin.
http://www.ditl.org/ship-sizecomp.php?ClassID=fedmiranda&ShipID=6099&ListID=Ships&ListOption=fed

Klingon B'rel class http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibrel&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :24 x Mark 10 pulse disrupter cannon4
6 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 14,250 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube
4 x Emergency photon torpedo tube with 385 rounds
Klingon bird of Prey http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=klibirdofprey&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament :21 x Mark 6 pulse disrupter cannon1, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
111 x Basic photon torpedo tube with 35 rounds

Klingon K'tinga  http://www.ditl.org/ship-page.php?ClassID=kliktinga&ShipID=9009&ListID=Ships&ListOption=otherak
Armament : 2 x Mark 10 disrupter cannon
12 x Mark 8 disrupter cannon, total output 8,500 TeraWatts
2 x High Power photon torpedo tube with 230 rounds

This video does it some justice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqzPdLLc1c

I would say this says a lot and Tulwar read that site for more info.What would your other ship be other than the Constitution class?


None of this information is canon.

Yes it is.

Offline knightstorm

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I never quite understood why the Constitution says 4 torpedo tubes

I think people are assuming that the Constitution retained the invisible TOS type torpedo tubes post rebuild.  I'm not one of those people.

As for the Miranda being a frigate, classification seems to be more fluid in starfleet, where often times the heavy cruisers of today, were last years battle cruisers.  In TNG and DS9, the Miranda seemed to be serving as DD, so in the supposed 25th century of STO, the Miranda would be a frigate.

Offline Age

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That is what I was trying to say Adam.TY.It says here it is a medium cruiser maybe at the time of TNG

Quote
The following information of specifications and defenses comes exclusively from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual:

    Production Base: ASDB Integration Facility, Starbase 134 Integration Facility, Rigel VI.
    Type: Medium Cruiser.
    Accommodation: 220 officers and crew; 500 personal evacuation limit.
    Power Plant: One 1500 plus Cochrane warp core feeding two nacelles; one impulse system.
    Dimensions: Length, 277.76 meters; beam, 173.98 meters; height: 65.23 meters.
    Mass: 655,000 metric tons.
    Performance: Warp 9.2 for 12 hours.
    Armament: Six type-7 phaser emitters; two pulse phaser cannons; two photon torpedo launchers.


http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Miranda_class        source

I was mostly started this thread because of the ship I use.I wanted to see how long it would of stayed in service in some what canon role other than STFC.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:18:55 pm by Age »

Offline Tulwar

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Going back to the original reason the Miranda was brought up, how many of them would have been included in the original 12 starships?  I mean, if the WoK script called the Miranda an older "Enterprise Class," then for the purpose of this conversation, the Constitution Class might even be more rare than we would have guessed.  At least two Constitution Class ships were taken out during TOS.  We saw 4 together at one time, so there could have been as many as 6 Mirandas.  Man, those must be some tough ships, because they reappeared in so many episodes!
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Don Karnage

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They might have only 12 Constitution class, but I don't think that Starfleet would only have those 12 ships. Mostly after loosing the Constellation, the Defiant , the Intrepid (I think, the one with the Vulcan) and the one during the Ultimate computer. So they lost like 3 ships and they will need to replace them.

They must have other smaller ship for other purposes? Well the Fasa book and SFB have other ship, the cargo Ptolemy class and destroyer Saladin class NCC 500? They must also have some transport ship for colonizing other planet?

I know about the robot ship that the ultimate computer destroyed (well it was a old dy 500 like) before they change it for another model.

Offline Tulwar

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They might have only 12 Constitution class, but I don't think that Starfleet would only have those 12 ships. Mostly after loosing the Constellation, the Defiant , the Intrepid (I think, the one with the Vulcan) and the one during the Ultimate computer. So they lost like 3 ships and they will need to replace them.

They must have other smaller ship for other purposes? Well the Fasa book and SFB have other ship, the cargo Ptolemy class and destroyer Saladin class NCC 500? They must also have some transport ship for colonizing other planet?

I know about the robot ship that the ultimate computer destroyed (well it was a old dy 500 like) before they change it for another model.

Understand, I am assuming by the WoK script that the Riliant was no kind of inferior class to the Constitution, just an older version.  That means that ships of these classes are the exact same thing for command purposes.  Once you go with information compiled from games, novels, or any other fan-made database, we are having a completely different discussion.  The Saladin is a non-canon design, so it does not exist for purposes of this discussion; however, the Oberth class did appear as a contemporary of the Big E, so mentioning that ship would be kosher.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Age

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I really think that star Trek needs to go back to 2250s or 60s and but out couple of episodes of that era of Trek.We really don't know much about Trek of the TOS/TMP era.We know more about TNG era even more about the Ent. D say than the TOS era of Ent. Pike/Kirk.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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The Saladin class did appear on screen in an Episode of TNG, as a technical diagram that Data was looking at (straight out of FJ's manual, no less)  So the Saladin does exist... as to whether or not it exists in the role that Franz Joseph envisioned, who knows.

Obviously the expense of building a thorough bred cruiser like the Constitution would make it difficult to simply churn out all Constitutions, there would have to be some diversity in the fleet, otherwise the Federation Treasury would be bankrupt.  There's also the question of manpower.  400 trained crewmen per Constitution doesn't seem like a whole lot, but multiply that by several hundred, and suddenly your talking about a lot of people.  Smaller ships that can do the same peace-keeping jobs, (A F-DD) is only logical.

I agree that I would love to see another TOS/TMP era series to help flesh out that time frame.  I really feel that a TMP era series was needed, there was so much of the Refitted Enterprise that we DIDN'T get to see.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Tulwar

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I think JJ Abrams deliberately broke canon, so CBS will have license to reboot the series.  If the execs have any sense, they'll get a good set of writers together under a good director,  write a completely new ST bible, and disregard everything done before.  That ought to make for a good series.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Tulwar

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There have been 2 JJ F#k's already, and I think he's making a 3rd.  Spiderman got so weird and stupid, because they kept making movies, and movies keep getting weirder and stupider, because they have to out-do the one before.  A television series is designed from the beginning to be a continuous operation.  The writers, and set-builders, and prop makers don't want to come up with everything at the last moment.  That mean consistency.  When an episode calls for the Enterprise to be attacked by a D7, they don't want to have to make-up the weapons and tactics.  They'd like to go over the pre-made material so they can get everything set up for the shot, then go home for the evening.  The original blueprints for the Enterprise and the D7 were not created for the fans.  They were made the writers and set builders, and prop-makers.  Heck, the D7, movie prop and model-master were built by AMT from those blueprints.

Do any of the JJ Treks show the slightest hint that the set designers and model makers had any concept of blueprints?  Movies are projects.  They are not only one-off things for the makers, but the audience is only expected to watch them once.  You can distract the audience with a little razzel-dazzel, while you do some completely impossible BS in the next frame.  By the time the audience figures it out, they've already left the theater.  Moreover, movies aren't even made for America audiences.  They compete directly with Bollywood on the international level.  While Bollywood has music and dancing, Hollywood has glitzy special effects and violence.  Personally, I'd rather see what Bollywood could do with ST than see another JJ Abrams movie.

I'm not looking forward to a new movie.  I'm looking forward to a new series.  A series has to make sense.  A movie doesn't.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Don Karnage

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I have seen the new Spiderman vomit and its bad.

Re inventing a know story is like saying "I don't like it like that, I want to see a alternative version of it"

Its just bad.

For the Constitution class, 12 ships mean 4800 peoples. But where do you get 12 captains? From previous ships?

Also on the Constellation it was a commodore "Decker" who was in command. I'm not sure if there was other commodore or admiral who where in command of a Constitution class? Also why a commodore would be in command of a ship? Maybe like the flag ship, but the Constellation was not the flag ship.

A new Star Trek series base on the 2 new vomit might be interesting, but for me its more like a alternate universe of what we know.

I was wondering what the old Spoke will do with his life? Don't think he can go to Romulus and try to join them with the Vulcan since little Vulcan survived the destruction of their planet. He can't really return to Star Fleet command and get a new job. With his knowledge of the future, spoke might contaminated this time line. But then again maybe he did. The time line was already change after the destruction of Vulcan. He could make sure that the fed get new weapons and shield to be prepare for anything that might or will happen in this future. Like the planet killer, the giant amoeba, Vger, etc.

I said vomit instead of movie because its make me sick of re making what was know from previous movies.

Offline Corbomite

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A commodore used to be a somewhat temporary rank in the navy. Essentially it is the same rank as a rear admrial lower half, but was usually assigned to a captain in temporary charge of a small fleet or flotilla for a mission so there was no question of who is in charge. The navy doesn't use the rank anymore. I'm not sure it was even still in use during TOS. TOS used commodores exclusively until I think the third season when an actual admiral showed up or was mentioned. I assumed that they had several senior captains that either they didn't want to promote to admirals or weren't interested in desk jobs (like Commodore Mendez in "The Menagerie" or Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years"), so they promoted them to commodore. There was a commodore heading up the flotilla that took on M5 in "The Ultimate Computer".



EDIT: Mistyped "rear" as "real"
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 10:36:13 am by Corbomite »

Offline Don Karnage

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So is the "Federation class dreadnought" is in the Fasa book and I think in the Star Fleet battle. I know that the Mars class Battleship is in the Star Fleet battle game and book. But since TOS only last 3 years and they never mention those ship or class. Well the board game was created after the series, so those kind of ship would serve for a potential war?

Since the Constitution class is a Heavy Cruiser, they must have some scout ship or do they use a Constitution class for exploring?

Offline Bernard Guignard

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  • Trek Canon!!! I NO believe in TreK Canon!!!.
The Federation Class Dreadnought to the best of my knowledge is not part of the official FASA canon it was added in by fans later on.

Offline Age

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This explains about what a Commodore is Rank

Don there were more than 12 Const. at the time Kirk said that that is all there were.That is what the Constitution is designed for exploring as said in opening credits of the show.

Offline Don Karnage

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Well since the number on the hull have nothing to do with the order the ship was build, how do we know in what order those ship go?

Offline Age

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Actually. It is the Starfleet Command community who make this up.When you look at one of my posts with ship names on it it shows the Warrior as 1736 which is not right as that is Pestalence's reg number.It was assigned to me be Wanderer.

Don you wonder about the Saladin well it is canon.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saladin_class

might find this interesting.
http://www.trekplace.com/article09.html

Offline Tulwar

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Re inventing a know story is like saying "I don't like it like that, I want to see a alternative version of it"


TOS was great, back in the 1960's.  By the mid-1970's, Space 1999 came out with more models and better sets.  In the mid 1990's the folks making SG-1 showed us what good acting, direction, and writing could do with a goofy sci-fy premise.  Today, the old ST series and movies just don't hold up to 21th Century production standards.  On top of that, with the medical science advancements I expect to see over the next few centuries, I wouldn't expect to tell the difference between 90 year old woman and a girl who just about to have her first legal serving of liquor.  Seeing old people in the time of ST TNG, just isn't realistic.  Moreover, plots have to be recycled, over and over.  I just can't see how to go on writing more ST movies and episodes without simply redoing everything with a more modern production team.

JJ Abrams understood this when he made his films.  Unfortunately, his story-lines more cannibalize the franchise than reinvigorate it.  You can't have any more episodes go to Vulcan, and Kahn had been good for one episode and one movie, but JJ supplanted both those stories.  What did Abrams add?  A really ugly version of the Big-E, a Spock/Uhura romance, and some really crumby sets.  This is not a reboot.  This is vandalism.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Tulwar

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An atrocity. Between all the alternate timelines, Uhura has been passed around like fracking biscuits at a table. Now there's no one on that ship she hasn't screwed. I'm done! Whose next, Uhura and Kolos. Smh.

Adam

Uhura and Nurse Chapel might be interesting, but those of us who watched TOS know she only has eyes for Spock.  Oops....  Cat fight!
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Offline Javora

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An atrocity. Between all the alternate timelines, Uhura has been passed around like fracking biscuits at a table. Now there's no one on that ship she hasn't screwed. I'm done! Whose next, Uhura and Kolos. Smh.

Adam

Uhura and Nurse Chapel might be interesting, but those of us who watched TOS know she only has eyes for Spock.  Oops....  Cat fight!

Or a threesome...

Just say'en.

Offline Don Karnage

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When did Nurse Chapel was "attracted" to Spock in TOS? Is it after the episode where they meet his future wife?

I the last vomit, Doc Mccoy was playing Doctor Frankenstein with the tribles, its like Kirk going into Romulan territory and go nag them.

Its not who they are, stop changing their personality !


Offline Corbomite

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When did Nurse Chapel was "attracted" to Spock in TOS?

She first expressed her feelings in the episode "The Naked Time".

Offline Age

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Don can keep it on topic.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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After reading much of this thread . . . I gotta say I don't think you can say Star Trek "cannon" with the  " ..."

Just follow SFB, it makes more sense :)
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Offline knightstorm

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After reading much of this thread . . . I gotta say I don't think you can say Star Trek "cannon" with the  " ..."

Just follow SFB, it makes more sense :)

Yeah, the feds name ships after the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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After reading much of this thread . . . I gotta say I don't think you can say Star Trek "cannon" with the  " ..."

Just follow SFB, it makes more sense :)

Yeah, the feds name ships after the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

LOLz . . . us naming the Federation Flagship (a BB) the USS Strom Trumond had nothing to do with SFB, the strategy behind picking a repugnant name is to make people want to kill you and be overly aggressive.  Why else would I fly the USS Bill Clinton?

Anywhoo . . . the SFB explanation as to what happened to the Constitution class . . .  Keeping in mind that this is my own retarded way of reconciling SFB and Trek history (NOT cannon regarding ships, just events).  This isn't tough to do as there really isn't much that conflict.   

The Early TOS stuff lines up fine.  First contact with the Gorns, Organian treaty, etc . . .

ST TMP takes place in 2271 . . . right before the start of the General War . . . right before the Organians disappear . . . also helps explain why the Feds got the sh*t kicked out of them for a few years in the General War.

Late 2271 . . . Organians disappear, Klingons invade the Federation.

TWOK takes place in 2285 . . . After the GW was concluded.  It's never explained on screen what happened during those years (books smooks, they hold as much "cannon" weight as one of my bowel movements).  It makes total sense that Kirk and the Enterprise fought in that war, on the Klingon front, the ship being refited a few times and by TWOK was a CX.

ST3, 4, and 5, and concluded by like 2287?   Giving time for one more 5 year mission before ST6 in 2292.

ISC "conquest" was like 2285ish to 2292ish . . . but really didn't really involve the Federation.  At that point they'd probably be happy to sit back, f*ck holo-hookers, drink root beer, and like some Frogs patrol their borders for them.

ST:6 took place 2292 and ends with formal peace and a pseudo alliance with the Federation and Klingons.

The Andro wars happen after that, at that time though Kirk is out of the picture.

So . . . back on topic . . . WTF happened to the Constitution class? 

The Federation has X number of Shipyards capable of cranking out Heavy Cruiser hulls.  As per F&E they could crank out 4 Heavy Cruiser hulls per year at full production.  The Constitution hull (F-CA through F-CX) would have been standard in thous shipyards until something better came along.  Once we get into the 2290s and the bugs are kicked out of the Excelsior class (doesn't really jive with SFC/SFB but I've taken so many liberties already so what's a few more?) that class would be built in those shipyards.

So simply it was replaced.  The ones in service would stay in service for a long time as these ships were meant to last forever.  There would be refits, etc . . . but no new Connies would have been built after the 2290s.

TL:DR:  Just make sh*t up, there is no ST "cannon" as none of the writers bothered to keep track of this mess.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Corbomite

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That makes no sense DH. If TWOK happened in 2285, then Space Seed had to happen in 2270 since Kirk specifically stated "There's a man out there who I haven't seen in fifteen years who is trying to kill me." TMP couldn't have happened in 2271 if the Enterprise was still on its five year mission.

Offline knightstorm

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SFB lists one of the BCFs as being named USS Nathan Bedford Forrest.  Forrest was a confederate general during the civil war.  When black soldiers surrendered at Fort Pillow, he had them massacred.  After the war, he became the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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That makes no sense DH.

Very little in Trek Makes sense.  It's all over the place.

If TWOK happened in 2285, then Space Seed had to happen in 2270 since Kirk specifically stated "There's a man out there who I haven't seen in fifteen years who is trying to kill me." TMP couldn't have happened in 2271 if the Enterprise was still on its five year mission.

TMP did take place in 2271.  TWOK did take place in 2285.

Space seed was more like 25 years before TWOK.  Just let that 15 years thing slide, this is Trek there are far bigger inconsistencies you need to accept.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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SFB lists one of the BCFs as being named USS Nathan Bedford Forrest.  Forrest was a confederate general during the civil war.  When black soldiers surrendered at Fort Pillow, he had them massacred.  After the war, he became the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Nice, I'm sure you can find some more horrible people if you check the full OoB on ADB's site.
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Offline Corbomite

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LOL!! DH the bible thumper!   :laugh:

Offline FPF-DieHard

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What I did find as yet another Trek bit of retardation . . . you do not see a Connie after ST6 anywhere in the shows or movies.  Even in those insane thousand ship battles in DS9.

Star Trek Online, which is supposed to take place 30 years after Nemesis still has Constitution class ships available.  Is this pandering to fanbois?  Probably.

Off topic:  I just started messing around in STO . . . what a stupid game yet it's SO pretty.  The Sector navigation is great though, in my "dream" game that's how moving around at warp would work.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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There's a lot I like. I loved designing my uniforms. I wish I could do more on the bridge :-/
The planets seem cool, if they'd open up a place to mod; we would be able to create more sceneries.
What I despise is the ship action. Do I really need all those glows and lights flashing for ever button I press. Ehh. Annoying.

There's far more wrong than their is right with STO.  If Trek wasn't in the title there's now way it'd be alive.

But Sector navigation is wonderful.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline knightstorm

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SFB lists one of the BCFs as being named USS Nathan Bedford Forrest.  Forrest was a confederate general during the civil war.  When black soldiers surrendered at Fort Pillow, he had them massacred.  After the war, he became the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Nice, I'm sure you can find some more horrible people if you check the full OoB on ADB's site.

There's also a USS Regis Philban.

Offline Age

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What I did find as yet another Trek bit of retardation . . . you do not see a Connie after ST6 anywhere in the shows or movies.  Even in those insane thousand ship battles in DS9.

Star Trek Online, which is supposed to take place 30 years after Nemesis still has Constitution class ships available.  Is this pandering to fanbois?  Probably.

Off topic:  I just started messing around in STO . . . what a stupid game yet it's SO pretty.  The Sector navigation is great though, in my "dream" game that's how moving around at warp would work.

Yeah the Constitutions went on to serve much past 2365 if you look at this
 http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starships_at_Wolf_359?file=USS_Melbourne_wreckage%252C_BoBW.jpg#Starships_at_Wolf_359   check the bottom.

The General War has nothing to do with the real world of Trek.That is ADB soo the dates are as they are for the real Trek world.you know I ma more of true Trek fan but have respect for SFB more SFC tho.I like the way Chris Jones does it for Legacey shiplist.

I would say that most Const. which no one knows the exact number that were built as the Defiant is 1764.This would indicate that more were produced before the original 12.

When it comes to the names I take SFC over all else.When it comes to Uniforms I like TOS,ST 2/6 and the Black and Grey as shown in first Contact.

When it comes to STO they do what is limited within the license agreement and appeal the game towards a much younger fan base.It is why they won't make some of the older ship up to T5 spec.

I already talked about the names as to where they came from.It is all on SFC.net.

But please lets stick more of the canon as if it hasn't been butchered enough.

Offline Javora

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The only things I think of as Cannon in Star Trek beyond the cast/crew is Red Shirts and Mini Skirts...

Offline FPF-DieHard

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LOLz . . .

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CANNON TREK.

Each writer on each show made stuff up as they went along and the inconsistencies are all over the place.
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Offline Corbomite

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You know I was going to correct you since you keep using "cannon" instead of the proper "canon", but I realized that they actually are one in the same thing when it comes to ST. Both have flaws and inconsistancies that cause them to blow apart and destroy everything around them when filled with too much hot expanding gas after being stuffed too full of explosive things.

Offline knightstorm

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LOLz . . .

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CANNON TREK.

Each writer on each show made stuff up as they went along and the inconsistencies are all over the place.

Writers have generally tried to stay faithful to what came before.  Trek has relatively few inconsistencies for something that was in almost continuous production for over 30 years.

Offline Don Karnage

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ST1 the Enterprise was refit. In star trek 2 the enterprise was a school ship because it was "old". So how much time past between 1 and 2 that the refit is consider "old" to be use to train cadet in 2? Between 2 and 3 a few days past since the enterprise return to the star base and was told that the enterprise was 20 years old? But the ship should be more no?

We will have to bring back G.R. to make thing strait so we can make sense of the history of the Constitution class.

The 12 originals where created when? When and how many more where build?

Do they still have original (none TMP) ship somewhere or did they refit them all. Well those who where not lost?

In Star Trek 3 when the return to space dock, the Excelsior was ready for its try out. So the new class of ship was introduce. Is the Excelsior a prototype since it was the only ship of its class? In Star Trek 4 at the end, they give Kirk a new ship, the Enterprise A. A refit constitution. Just before we see the Enterprise A, the flew in front of the Excelsior. So that mean the fix what Scotty did to it and was ready to replace the Constitution class?

How much time have pass between Star Trek 6 and Star Trek Generation with the Enterprise B Excelsior class refit?

Why not give command of a Excelsior class to Kirk after decommissioning the Enterprise A?

What happen to the crew of the Enterprise? Sulu is a captain, but the rest? Chekof is what now a commander? Scotty was retiring ? Hurrura, Mc coy, ?

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Kirk was ready for retirement, there's no doubt about that from dialogue in ST:VI.  The same seems to be the case for Scotty.  Chekov, in the books (not canon, but little of the "Lost Era" is) transfers to the Excelsior and serve's as Sulu's First Officer. Spock retires from Starfleet and joins the diplomatic corp.  McCoy apparently accepts a position in Starfleet Medical, I would probably put him as the Surgeon General of Starfleet at sometime prior to the events in Encounter at Farpoint.  The great mystery is what happens to Uhura, books place her in Starfleet Intelligence, but not much is mentioned of her, even in the books.

As for Constitutions, we do not know if the Republic is a Constitution, if it is, though I would imagine that it would have been refitted at some point in time, it's a training vessel, and if the equipment is a century old, it serves no purpose in that regard.  So I would imagine that every effort is made to keep the Republic up to at least early 24th century standard, but probably not as modern as the newest ships.
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Offline Don Karnage

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Kirk was ready for retirement, there's no doubt about that from dialogue in ST:VI.  The same seems to be the case for Scotty.  Chekov, in the books (not canon, but little of the "Lost Era" is) transfers to the Excelsior and serve's as Sulu's First Officer. Spock retires from Starfleet and joins the diplomatic corp.  McCoy apparently accepts a position in Starfleet Medical, I would probably put him as the Surgeon General of Starfleet at sometime prior to the events in Encounter at Farpoint.  The great mystery is what happens to Uhura, books place her in Starfleet Intelligence, but not much is mentioned of her, even in the books.

As for Constitutions, we do not know if the Republic is a Constitution, if it is, though I would imagine that it would have been refitted at some point in time, it's a training vessel, and if the equipment is a century old, it serves no purpose in that regard.  So I would imagine that every effort is made to keep the Republic up to at least early 24th century standard, but probably not as modern as the newest ships.

According the the Star Trek encyclopedia, the following ship are Constitution class :

Constellation  NCC-1017

Constitution   NCC-1700

Defiant          NCC-1764

Eagle            NCC-956

Endeavour    NCC-1895

Enterprise    NCC-1701

Essex          NCC-1672

Hood           NCC-1703

Intrepid       NCC-1831

Lexington     NCC-1709

Potemkin     NCC-1657

Republic      NCC-1371

Yorktown     NCC-1717

"The registry number of the Constitution (NCC-1700) is from one of Scotty's technical manual screen in "Space Seed" (TOS). Since the class ship has a 1700 number, it would seem only reasonable that other ships of the class would have higher, possibly even sequential numbers. Unfortunately, the U.S.S. Constellation ("The Doomsday Machine" (TOS), bore a much lower number, NCC-1017, (obliviously because it was a simple rearrangement of the decal sheet from the AMT Enterprise model kit) and the Republic was designated as NCC-1371. These data points suggest the Constitution-Class ship had registry numbers that only varied widely in range, but also could not be sequential. Modelmaker Greg Jein (through an amazingly complex and admittedly only barely logical means) manage up the various Constitution ships with the starship status chart in Commodore Stone's office in Starbase 11, seen in "Court Martial" (TOS).

Most of these registry numbers are from Greg's conjectural list, although several are from various Starfleet charts and readouts in Star Trek VI. Several of the Constitution-class ship listed above are not from any episode or movie, but are from the original Star Trek production office's starship list in Steven Whitfield's book, The Marking of Star Trek.


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Don't forget the most "infamous" Constitution class of all time . . .
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Corbomite

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Quote
(obliviously because it was a simple rearrangement of the decal sheet from the AMT Enterprise model kit)


I think that fact was oblivious to everyone...   

I'm sorry, but that was unintentionally very funny in that context.  :angel:

Offline Don Karnage

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The Enterprise  was launched in 2245 and was under the command of Captain Robert April, then by Captain Christofer Pike. From 2264 to 2269 the ship was under the command of Kirk. In 2270 it was refit TMP. In 2285 Kirk destroyed it to prevent Klingon for taking Pike would have command two five years mission before Kirk get command of it and that April have the first five years mission.

2250 Kirk was an ensign aboard the Republic. lather he serve aboard the Uss Faragut NCC-1647, Kirk was a lieutenant aboard in 2257. What happen after that we don't know. Seven years between have past, he was a lieutenant in 2257 and was a captain in 2264. So was he promoted captain, skipping the rank lieutenant commander and commander?

Offline Vipre

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Quote
How much time have pass between Star Trek 6 and Star Trek Generation with the Enterprise B Excelsior class refit?

Hardly any. VI happens during 2293, the B is launched the same year.

Quote
So how much time past between 1 and 2 that the refit is consider "old" to be use to train cadet in 2?

Roughly 12 years, closer to 14 in my opinion. The ship is 40 and her frame has had a rough life. It's not really age that's the issue it's the beating the frame takes during the life of the ship that determines how long it's serviceable...and in E's case she got beat to hell on a near "weekly" basis.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Wasn't the Enterprise-A destroyed in the "The Ashes of Eden" book?  I know books aren't really canon, but it was written by Shatner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashes_of_Eden
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Offline Age

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Don't forget the most "infamous" Constitution class of all time . . .


How did you do that DieHard?

When it comes to names.I go by this

Sorry for the Necro but I don't want to make samll thread.

I just want to say I got them as to the reference of the name being a D2 player.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Lafayette_%28NCC-1720%29

Quote

    he Lafayette was refit to the Enterprise-subclass specifications, outfitted as a command cruiser (CC), by the 2280s decade. The ship was easily modifiable with additional technology to become the advanced command cruiser (CC+). (ST video game: Starfleet Command)



Which is actually Warrior.

Offline Panzergranate

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Some of the Comstitution Class were rebuilds of earlier Horizon, Republic and other preceeding classes of cruisers to heavy cruiser specification (Constitution Class).

This is pretty much evident from the NCC numbers as anything preceeding the original prototype and class ship (CA 1700 Constitution) would have been constructed many years before. Any other explaination to this generates a causality issue with some ships being constructed years before the prototype and class ship left the shipyard.

McCoy mentions a long war betwen the Federation and the Klingon Empire that occured years before ST TOS. It is conceivable that many cruisers badly damaged during this war were rebuilt as Constitution Class heavy cruisers because (A) they needed serious rebuilding and (B) it saved Star Fleet a lot of money and (C) kept the accountants happy.

One more point is that the 1701-A Enterprise was rebuilt from the USS Levant (from another different heavy cruiser class), not the 1717 Yorktown.





 
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Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Panz,
Where's your source? 
I'd love to read up on this, I've always thought it was the Yorktown.


http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-A)
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Offline Panzergranate

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It was in a books I read (without buying) at a convention and I've seen it mentioned on a few websites.

Unfortunately non-canon also contradicts itself.

The general theme that Starfleet recycles a lot of starship hulls (Remember the ex-Miranda class heavy frigate USS Lantree being used as a supply ship (technically a sloop in naval terms because of the role) in TNG??) and the modular build some of the out of sequence NCC number could reasonably indictate that some ships were converted up to Constition class just as later in TMP some Constitution class ships were being upgraded to Enterprose class.

As the class ship USS Constitution would have first undergone space trials as NX-1700 before naval commisioning for active service as NCC-1700, the USS Eagle (listed above in a post) could not have originally been laid down as a Constitution class starship before the class ship..... so it must have been a previous Laurence Marvik design with so similar atributes that it could be converted and rebuilt to Constitution class specification. The same would go for the NCC 1017 Constellation, NCC 1371 Republic and any other Constitution class starship registered before the original class ship.

Its the only explaination that can cover for number irregularities that covers all the bases in non-canon to cover the NCC 1017 Constellation number cock up in canon.

The previous converted ships could have originally been cruisers converted to heavy cruiser status by the addition on more modern weaponry, sensors, engines, crew capacity, other technology, etc. to re-classify them as Constitution class.

It happens in navies around the world today..... change the rec room games consol from X-Box 360 to X-Box One and the ship may have to be reclassified because of the upgrade.

 
The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline knightstorm

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It was in a books I read (without buying) at a convention and I've seen it mentioned on a few websites.

Unfortunately non-canon also contradicts itself.

The general theme that Starfleet recycles a lot of starship hulls (Remember the ex-Miranda class heavy frigate USS Lantree being used as a supply ship (technically a sloop in naval terms because of the role) in TNG??) and the modular build some of the out of sequence NCC number could reasonably indictate that some ships were converted up to Constition class just as later in TMP some Constitution class ships were being upgraded to Enterprose class.

As the class ship USS Constitution would have first undergone space trials as NX-1700 before naval commisioning for active service as NCC-1700, the USS Eagle (listed above in a post) could not have originally been laid down as a Constitution class starship before the class ship..... so it must have been a previous Laurence Marvik design with so similar atributes that it could be converted and rebuilt to Constitution class specification. The same would go for the NCC 1017 Constellation, NCC 1371 Republic and any other Constitution class starship registered before the original class ship.

Its the only explaination that can cover for number irregularities that covers all the bases in non-canon to cover the NCC 1017 Constellation number cock up in canon.

The previous converted ships could have originally been cruisers converted to heavy cruiser status by the addition on more modern weaponry, sensors, engines, crew capacity, other technology, etc. to re-classify them as Constitution class.

It happens in navies around the world today..... change the rec room games consol from X-Box 360 to X-Box One and the ship may have to be reclassified because of the upgrade.

The Constitution class was not a rebuild of a previous class.  Starfleet registry numbers have neither ryme nor reason.  The Constellation was numbered 1017 because they used an amt Enterprise model kit, and were too cheap to fabricate new decals, so they rearranged the numbers.

Offline TAnimaL

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if this was facebook I'd give knightstorm's comment a big thumbs-up, although I'd quibble that it wasn't being "too cheap" but rather under pressure to deliver a TV show on budget and on time. As much fun as it is to speculate about the ships and their background, if it wasn't said in an episode, it's "fanon" opinion.

Offline Corbomite

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The Constitution class was not a rebuild of a previous class.  Starfleet registry numbers have neither ryme nor reason.  The Constellation was numbered 1017 because they used an amt Enterprise model kit, and were too cheap to fabricate new decals, so they rearranged the numbers.

If only they'd had the prescience to use 1710 they would have saved a lot of fanbois a lot of consternation.  ::) ;)

Offline Tulwar

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If only they'd had the prescience to use 1710 they would have saved a lot of fanbois a lot of consternation.  ::) ;)

At this point, I'd like to see every ST fan go off making their own ST universes, with their own sets of rules and histories.  Trying to explain whatever the continuity directors missed has been too much for a long time.  Since JJ Abrams made his films, ST has simply been broken.

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Offline Nemesis

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In Greek mythology, Zeus' lightningbolts were made by Hephaestus.  Another legend, has them being made by Cyclopes.  The stories are mutually exclusive, yet both were true to the Ancient Greeks.  So be it with Star Trek.

It was just capitalism.  Hephaestus couldn't keep his profit up so he subcontracted to the low bidder (Cyclopes).

The NCC numbers could be different based on what shipyard makes them.  Shipyard A is making them starting at 1700 Shipyard B has had fewer contracts and starts at 1017 Shipyard C could be up in the 12000 range. 
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Honestly, There's precedent for the ship just being rededicated.  (although it happened well after the fact and due to budget issues in the CGI department)  The Defiant NX-74205 was destroyed, and a couple episodes later a new Defiant class, the Sao-Paulo, was rededicated to be the Defiant, even gave the ship the Defiant's registry.   No reason that one of the first couple of Constitutions couldn't have been rededicated Constellation, with the Registry NCC-1071.  If the previous Constellation did something spectacular, like maybe sacrifice itself at Axanar to save the ship that would later become the Constellation while it was being built, would that be worthy of a re-dedication?

The whole thing with the Defiant's registry was of course, they were just about out of money in the CGI department and just used old stock photos of the old Defiant whenever they had to show her on the screen.
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Offline Corbomite

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The whole thing with the Defiant's registry was of course, they were just about out of money in the CGI department and just used old stock photos of the old Defiant whenever they had to show her on the screen.

That and the fact that they had what, two episodes left in the series? I can see why they wouldn't sport for a whole new model and computer time.

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Honestly, There's precedent for the ship just being rededicated.  (although it happened well after the fact and due to budget issues in the CGI department)  The Defiant NX-74205 was destroyed, and a couple episodes later a new Defiant class, the Sao-Paulo, was rededicated to be the Defiant, even gave the ship the Defiant's registry.   No reason that one of the first couple of Constitutions couldn't have been rededicated Constellation, with the Registry NCC-1071.  If the previous Constellation did something spectacular, like maybe sacrifice itself at Axanar to save the ship that would later become the Constellation while it was being built, would that be worthy of a re-dedication?

The whole thing with the Defiant's registry was of course, they were just about out of money in the CGI department and just used old stock photos of the old Defiant whenever they had to show her on the screen.
This what happened with the Ent. A as it is originally the USS Yorktown 1717.

It would be realy a time for a whole new show and no more use of the name Enterprise time to retire the name.

Offline Tulwar

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TOS was never supposed to make complete sense.  They came up with "stardates" just to make sure that no one could pin down the actual time of the series.  How could ship serial numbers be any better?
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Offline Czar Mohab

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I'd forgotten that this thread was in existence until now. So much passion behind each posting in this thread. Such conviction.

I missed you guys.  :smitten:

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Offline Nemesis

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Were Stardates intended to be "confusing" or were they the result of warping time? 

The original Pilot has Pike ordering "Time Warp factor" not Warp factor".  One of the landing party explains to the (fictitious) castaways that "they have broken the time barrier" to explain the speed of the Enterprise.    So the stardate system could be because where you were in time varied depending on where in space you were.  So you might have an earlier Stardate be later in your personal experience. 
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Offline TAnimaL

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According to "The Making Of Star Trek" (Whifield 1969)  and other sources, stardates were intended to avoid using dates and years and to sound "futuristic," but certainly became confusing. Sometimes they'll talk as tho the 20th Century was "two centuries ago" and some times "300 yrs ago". They certainly weren't intended to hold up to fannish scrutiny! And the tech in "The Cage" was still very unfixed in terms of the ST that came later, borrowing more from "Forbidden Planet" than anything else. It was only later that the stardates really became linear, especially TNG onward.

It's a bit of a fudge, but one could imagine warp technology evolving over the years, and in Pike's time there had been a breakthrough to Warp 7 or 8 (like the Warp 5 barrier ENT talked about) that made the ride different until the tech got better. Remember, in the full pilot (not aired as part of "The Menagerie," so therefore not "canon"), when Pike orders the time warp the bridge gets translucent and Kelso signals with his fingers that they hit warp 7, as if they couldn't speak.

I'm sure that later in life Kirk would have quoted the esteemed Dr. Henry Jones Jr.  - "It's not the years, but the mileage." All that warp travel, plus occasional time-travel, not to mention alien posession, body transfers, mugato poisoining, etc., must have aged a person. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but Kirk's age is never mentioned in the movie era. After all that travel, who knows.

Just found this interesting page on Stardates:
http://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.ca/2013/07/captains-log-stardate-unknown.html

Offline Corbomite

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Part of the problem was that they were broadcasting them out of production sequence. Fans noticed immediately that the star dates seemed to jump around a lot and wrote letters asking what was going on. They came up with some flim-flam to explain it. I think that is in The Making of ST too IIRC.

Offline Corbomite

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I'd always assumed they'd used some kind of galactic measure as that would apply to the whole galaxy and make conversions from local time easier. That article TAnimaL linked seems to indicate that as well, but not in the way I imagined it.

They never got into it much, but forcing species that have to work together onto the same schedule would cause havoc with circadian rhythms and have certain health and other biological issues. Capt. Sisko alludes to that a bit when he complains about getting used to a twenty-six hour day. Since Bajor wasn't part of the Federation, they were forced into their time schedule, not the Fed one they were used to.

Of course they have a show to write and sometimes little details get in the way and it's just easier to ignore them or assume science has come up with a way to offset that particular problem.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 11:11:33 am by Corbomite »