Topic: Canon Clarification  (Read 16540 times)

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Offline Captain Adam

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Canon Clarification
« on: May 20, 2014, 11:15:05 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:49:13 pm by Captain Adam »
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 01:37:20 am »
I understand that the Romulans gave up on Plasma Torpedoes when everybody simply ran away and came back tossing dozens of Photon Torpedos at them.  Then FASA has weapons like "Plasma Mortars and other non-canon weapons, but kept up pretty good with the post TOS content.

I gave up on the canon back when I first was a Klingon cruiser fire a torpedo out of its nose.  Mind you, they didn't have it all together when they filmed TOS, but, with the movies, they created so much temporary stuff that just got dumped into the canon that it's rather confusing.  Now add four more series!

JJ Trek doesn't count.  I just saw Into the Darkness or whatever.  The Enterprise not only looks 10x bigger, but then, it gets even bigger on the inside!  I guess the warp drive so extra-dimensional properties that were never explained in anything previous.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Don Karnage

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 08:34:58 am »
They Romulans did use plasma, but when the exchange tech with the Klingon they must have use disruptors and torpedo.

The first Romulan ship have a cloaking device on it to hide and do a sneak attack on the fed asteroid base. later Kirk send his ship into Romulan territory to get his hand on a Romulan cloaking device.

StarFleet hear that the Romulans have a (new) cloaking device and it was a threat to the security of Star Fleet. But they seem to have only disruptor, no plasma weapons like on the warbird.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 10:56:01 am »
I simply gave up on the whole thing long ago and assumed that any of the major powers could replicate the weaponry of another race if they wanted to. What it came down to was resources and the power sources available. Some weapons are obviously more costly, so some empires/races can't really compete and don't try in those types and sometimes it's a matter of choice, as with the Feds who have vast resources.

The other thing I assumed was that the Romulans were in a constant state of aquiring and trying out new tech, hence the switch from plasma to (ostensibly) photons during the time of 1701-C, but that causes a snag in historical logic since to use photons you need a matter/anti-matter power source and we know that by the time of 1701-D that the Romulans are using a small singularity as their power source and have again switched to (ostensibly) disruptors, so they must have been trying out new drive systems as well.

During a time of war I'd expect the powers to pull out all the stops and create/use whatever they could. I was just glad to hear the words "plasma torpedo" in DS9, but was very disapointed that it was portrayed as just any other DF weapon. Did they ever directly state or show a Cardy ship firing HW? I can't remember.

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 04:30:28 pm »
Well.In Star Trek Online anything goes most don't stick to traditional weaponry of their empire.Cryptic has done most of this allowing certain ship to use certain weapons.It is anything goes in STO which is why pvp is dead or a joke.I despite the tier system.

I know Roms use plasma torps and plasma disruptors.I will have to rewatch yesterdays Enterprise again

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 05:31:35 pm »
Birth of the Federation has the Cardassians using Photon and Quantum Torpedoes.

But it also has Klingons using Ion Torpedoes instead of Photon Torpedoes.

Romulans use Plasma Torpedoes, as they should.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 05:59:49 pm »
One time in TNG they fired a Pink/Rosy colored disruptor burst, dont really know if it was a torpedo or what not.

What ep.? I think we can assume that the Cardys don't use disruptors since everytime they stated that disruptors were the weapon used they also stated that pointed to Klingons, Romulans or Breen.

Offline Javora

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 05:51:03 am »
Plasma bolt of some kind IMHO.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 07:29:35 am »
Plasma bolt of some kind IMHO.

Could be since we know that they do have plasma capabilities at least. It definitely isn't a photon, at least not like the Feds use. I can see where one might get the idea it was a disruptor since it is very TOS disruptor blobbish, but we know what disruptors look like (at least Klingon ones) from the attack on Gowron's ship at the start of the Klingon Civil War.

Since it wasn't named it could be anything. Game developers will use what they can to save money, so they aren't going to invent new things when they can just say thay the Cardys use photons or whatever, especially if there was an onscreen reference to them using those types of weapons (quantums or whatnot).

Offline Javora

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 09:29:26 am »
The firing ark seems odd for some reason.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 10:10:56 am »
I always cut the crew slack. They had about two weeks to design and build all the sets and do the effects for each episode. I assume lots of sleep loss and coffee are to blame for most gaffs.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 10:24:13 am »
Oh, well, that's easy. What side of the map do they come from? And don't assume that the red square is a deflector. It may be their main weapons array and the gold dots on the wings are the deflectors.

Offline Javora

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 10:59:33 am »
I think I'd go with plasma and/or missiles.  Probably both.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 11:15:51 am »
Cardys don't impress me as the run you down and anchor you type. Having all HW that can be WW is a liability at times, as the Gorn know too well. The Roms get away with it by having a cloak and a NSM on (nearly) every ship.

If I were outfitting for TNG specs with what we have in OP I think a probable Gala class outfitting would look something like this:

1xPPD FA

2xPlasX FH

2xPlasF LP/RP

12-14 PhX various arcs

2xPhG LS/RS

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 01:14:48 pm »
This is my Borg cube. I've seen it ruin an ISC BB in one shot.

140 total power, 900 hull, 100 armor, only 20 shields all around, but with 140 power and reinforcement...

3xPhoH FARA   

3xPhoH LR   

3xDisH FARA   

3xDisH LR   

2xHB FARA   

2xHB LR                     

3xADD12      

3xADD12   

2xPh4 FARA   

2xPh4 LR   

4xPhX FARA   

4xPhX LR   

4xPhX FARA   

4xPhX LR   

2xPhG FARA   

2xPhG LR


The Tactical Cube is a little lighter on weapons and power, but has 28 shields all around and eight nasty, nasty fighters (I found a use for that life pod model we never get to see).


The PPD isn't too bad as long as you restrict the numbers per ship to:

0 on anything sized smaller than a CM/CS.

1 on anything sized CM/CS to BCH.

2 on a DN.

3 on a DNH.

4 on a BB.


EDITED: PPD part for clarity.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:21:30 pm by Corbomite »

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 01:24:13 pm »
I'll just put in my 2 cents.  I guess that it might have been some FASA material that was put on the internet, but it left an impression on me.  The page described the Cardies as using photons and disruptors as primary weapons, but having obtained some kind of plasma defense or plasma mortar from the Romulans.

Back, years ago, I made up SFB SSD's of TOS Cardasians, arming them as a P2 race with disruptors in the front and light plasmas in the rear, as "drone" weapons.  I tested them in SFC, but wasn't real impressed.  I thought that was pretty accurate for their depiction in ST.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Javora

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 03:00:02 pm »
Looking at those pictures again, that energy bolt could pass as a off color Hellborn.  Food for thought.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 03:10:59 pm »
If your just going to go by looks it looks like a PlasE.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 07:18:39 pm »
Wow, that seems kind of weak for a 24th century ship, but as long as everyone else is comparable it really doesn't matter.

As far a the B-Cube goes, it was designed for a fleet to battle and since I replaced the neutral pirates with them (as well as other "new" encounters) they end up in the dozen or so pirate missions I have and since everyone hates them more, both sides try to kill the Borg before engaging everyone else. It ends up the survivors trying to kill each other with what's left. Oh, did I forget to mention that it has a 100 explosion strength? You don't want to be on top of it when it goes!  :D The Shadow vessel is just as bad, but cloaks constantly (cost of 1). It actually behaves like they did in B5: hit hard and cloak out, then reappear to finish you.


The other fun ones I added were the robotic probes. I think I have almost ten models. The minelayer probe is hilarious to fight. I gave it 2 PPD's, 50 T-Bombs and 10 Transporters (plus some PD) and 4 tough little robot fighters. It has no shields, but has some armor and a cloak. If you try to range it you get PPD'd, if you try to tractor it it T-Bombs you to death.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 08:42:59 pm »
What do your early era ships look like? Stuck out tongues and nasty looks? What do you graduate to in mid era? Spitballs and slingshots?  :P ;)

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 08:10:36 am »
It's easy to balance systems and hull, but weaponry always has to be viewed through the lenses of time and power consumption vs range and effective damage. It is the hardest thing to balance in the game.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 10:18:07 am »
I went a different route and banned all Ph-2 from combat ships (except for fighters) which meant an instant upgrade to many older Klingon, Hydran and Lyran ships. Only civilians, freighters and an occasional pirate have Ph-2's now.

I also redefined drone control to be a factor of not only whether the ship is a drone boat, but how many racks you have on the ship, with Mirak having an advantage (i.e. able to control more drones per rack than other races) to make up for the loss of all the drone types that didn't make it into the game. I've also given Klingon carriers drone racks.

I need three shiplists because I have outfitted all the carriers and other fighter bearing ships with era current fighters right out of space dock. If you'll notice, fighters are classed into four types: Patrol, Interceptor, Heavy and Assault. Based on the role of the ship and the number of squadrons, I choose appropriate classed fighters for the ship. For example, as a human player I'm likely to fill my fighter bays with all Heavy or Assault fighters, but an AI ship (say a true carrier with 4 squads) will have 1 Patrol squad, 1 Interceptor squad, 1 Heavy squad and 1 Assault squad. It makes fighting the AI about 100% more interesting. At the right times I swap out the shiplist and all the carriers a have new toys.

I decided to use the Phaser-A as a scout channel. It is the only thing in the game that even resembles the jamming capability of scout channels (by having that "stun" effect on bare hull). It gives scouts an actual role and I have a whole strategic layer devoted to them (out of five). The number of "scout channels" a ship can have is severely limited.

I've improved Def-Sats, given Klingon command ships better dizzy firing arcs, improved asteroid bases, reworked release dates for tech, redid the fighter weapons loadouts, added monsters (and pregnant monsters) and am in the process of reworking many power curves on some of the real dog ships, reevaluating the power curve needed to use the cloak effectively, restricting Taldrens X2 ships and using their tech more effectively. I'm also going through and deleting all the extra junk in the shiplist we don't need and reworking others to use the right UI (I like my Tac-Intel correct).



Your Breen idea is unconventional. You're trading out a fast firing, free holding range of effect weapon for a slower, constant power draw to hit/damage weapon, that does less damage overall. And they seem to have no PD.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 11:16:51 am »
Well, the main reason dizzys are "slower" than phasers even though they have the same charge rate is because of two main things: firing arc and power priority. Power priority you are stuck with. Phasers are the top dog in the weapons suite when it comes to charging and the only way to affect that is to slide the phaser capacitor down (or off). Firing arc you can manipulate, but only the Klingons seemed to have really messed with improving the dizzy. Other races (like the Lyran and Kzin) seemed to have viewed it as their secondary HW and don't have a lot of ships with wide firing arcs. That is, of course, SFB history, but you can do what you like. I would never get rid of phasers for any race. They are just too basic a weapon. Now, if you want to make them phaser weak (by using only Ph-2 for them or something) I could see that if you are compensating in some other area.

I think dizzys are too power hungry to be considered a light weapon, unless your power curves are set to make up for it. Also, you can miss too easily at close range unless you want to get right on top and take feedback damage. EW may diminish phaser fire, but something will always hit given enough proximity. Given all that, if you want to use dizzys instead of, say heavy phasers maybe because of firing rate, then you will need liberal firing arcs and more opportunities to fire, which means a larger power curve to hold all those weapons.

What you really need to do is work out the Breen "philosophy". What makes a Breen tick? Once you do that you can fashion your weapons suite to reflect that. We don't have much to go on since they never even showed a Breen face.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 03:42:55 pm »
You know, the other versatile thing about dizzys is their range breaks without the loss of effectivness. If you do go with more power to hold, say eight dizzys, you could stagger their ranges to get those multiple firing opportunties I spoke of. Close up it wouldn't matter, but at medium range it could be interesting. You'd have to scrap that plan you have for dizzys though, at least for the Breen. I would still use Ph-3/G for PD though.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 07:22:19 pm »
I get ya. Except that the only difference between a Dis-I and a Dis-IV has nothing to do with the weapon. It's the same weapon. The difference is the targeting scanners. By the 24th century it seems hard to believe they'd have anything but type IV dizzys. Are you completely axing out all the other eras? If so, then all the weapons revert to a neutral stance and you are not bound by what came before.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2014, 08:51:04 pm »
Hmmm, phasers to heavies. That's difficult.

Given that you are giving up range (even though most people don't shoot phasers past range 15ish), a greater chance to hit at close range and incuring a greater power cost, but gaining the ability to OL them, I'd try a 4 to 3 trade off as my first test and then adjust as needed.


Photons to Plasma is easier: You map the damage over six turns and you find that 3xPhot ~ 2xPlasF at range 8, which is optimum for both. Chance to hit is lower for the Phots, but they can be OL'd.


Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2014, 08:49:19 am »
You're welcome. You can compare plasma to plasma after you convert from another type, but just for reference and the fact it works out as well as Phot to PlasF: 6xPhot ~ 1xPlasR.

You know, I'm going to revise my earlier estimate. I gave too much weight to one consideration. 2xPhot ~ 1xPlasF.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 09:00:06 am by Corbomite »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2014, 01:39:08 pm »
Sounds cool.

There is another HW in the game you can use, but it was never finished. Do you know if anyone ever did a retexture of the Tractor/Repulsor beam? Stock it's just a plain blue line. I've always wanted to use those on something. I'd even be happy with overlaying the Mauler or Ph-B beam on it. Is that possible?

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2014, 03:33:08 pm »
Well the interface is screwed up too. They show as a PPD, but only have an interface if you put two or more together.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2014, 09:38:12 pm »
2xPhot~1xPlaF~1.5xHB~4x(1-1.33)Drones - In general, you can always assume that 2/3 to 3/4 of your drones will not do a thing besides waste some resources given a competent opponent.

Drone Type = Type 1 Med

Per Turn = 1


Realistically if 4:3 works for regular dizzys, then changing to heavies should be 8:3.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 10:29:17 pm by Corbomite »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2014, 02:30:52 pm »
Hey Adam, what are you doing with MIRV's? For some reason they are striking me as a Breenish weapon.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014, 10:12:37 pm »
It was nothing really thought out. Just the swarming nature of them seemed to strike me as Breen. They were secretive and liked to have a good advantage before commiting to anything. Since you were changing the textures of the drones you were sort of making your own weapon and I figured you could trun the MIRV munitions into something else too. They might work too as a swarming insectoid Xindi weapon for the Enterprise era or for Species 8472, they like to swarm.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014, 10:38:09 pm »
The ESG Lance and Ph-G2 are abominations. I restrict the ESGL to certain Monsters (Close-In Defense System) or added non-player races like the Shadows.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 10:53:40 pm »
Again, you're free to do as you like, but from where I sit, anything that does great damage while ignoring ECM and has a decent range and firing arc is too good for human use.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014, 11:30:31 pm »
Is there a suicidal race in TNG?  ;) No weapon has been more aptly named as the Suicide Fusion Beam.

Weapons Officer: "Captain we've powered up the Suicide Fusion Cannons, but they use up so much power we can't move!"

Captain: "Wait for it. They'll come to us!"

Seriously, Fusion Beams seem like something your ship purges out of some exhaust vent rather than a real weapon. IDK, seems like somthing the Jem Hadar would use; get in your face and F you up, and you already have them in the Hydran slot. Don't be adverse to only using certain weapons in certain class/size ships.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014, 11:46:46 pm »
I'm not talking about races cross using tech, I'm talking about the philosophy that the ISC use where PPD's are only on a certain size ship and higher or how PlasR are only used on a certain sized ship or the ship has to be built around it because of the shock of firing it. It allows you to change the flavor of your fleets at different class levels. Some races use a few weapons and stick with them. Some you are staying to canon based on what you know. Some, like the Breen, are open books and others, like the Dominion, will probably use whatever they want to to get the job done. Again, it all falls down to what the philosphy of the empire is.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2014, 01:32:16 am »
I just realized something. We have at least two examples of stated disruptor fire onscreen. One was Gowron's ship firing a ball of energy and one was the Romulans in Unification part 2 destroying the Vulcan ships with a green beam weapon. What are you assuming the green pulse weapon the Klingons use is and are you assuming it is the same green pulse weapon seen used by the Romulans in Face of the Enemy?

EDIT: I just remembered that the Roms used the same green pulse weapon in The Defector.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 09:14:12 am by Corbomite »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2014, 11:34:56 am »
Oh sure they fired all kinds of things, but how many times did they state what weapon it was? The BOP did fire some sort of a torp that kind of looks like the same thing Gowron's ship fired, but different. Was it a disruptor? IDK, they never said. That torp from Generations and those other shots looks like a green photon, but is it? I don't recall them ever naming the green pulse weapons.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2014, 12:33:49 pm »
You know, since you are changing textures anyway why don't you just overlay your light disruptor graphic onto the Ph-X? It solves all of your conversion issues and they can be OL'd. You now have a fast weapon to replace phasers with that mimics a HW.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2014, 01:27:54 pm »
Hmm, I always thought Ph-X was a slightly different texture.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2014, 02:19:51 pm »
Quote
To me it's identical other than a) It's fired from the Torpedo Launcher, b) it's entirely green with no blue hues like the Vor'Cha and c) it behaved differently than the usual disruptor impacts we have seen onscreen. Never the less we only saw the BOP fire it once with the Vor'Cha shields up and when the Vor'Cha used hers the BOP had it's shield down for transport.



The Vor'Cha fired again at the second ship after destroying the first and hit their shields. The effect was similar to what happened to the Vor'Cha's shields when it was hit by the BOP. I'd definitely say the the BOP fired a disruptor and the difference in color from the Vor'Cha's was to note a difference in power level of the weapon, all I was saying is there is little canon dialogue to match effects to particular weapons fire. Most of the time they just say that they are firing.


And I'm not sure that using the secret Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet as a reference would be completely proper (if I'm remembering that image you posted properly). It was built covertly outside government channels and was specifically designed for planetary bombardment. They would have used anything they wanted to accomplish that goal.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2014, 03:27:28 pm »
Well we know that the Klingons have at least four different types of weapons or variations of weapons just by what we see on screen: A green pulse weapon that I always assumed were their phasers since we never saw them fire Fed type phasers, a green/greenish-blue weapon that was identified as a disruptor, a green beam weapon that we don't know what it is and some kind of green torpedo that on the surface resembles a photon.

We know that the Romulans have at least three weapons or variations of a weapon by what we see on screen: A green beam weapon that was identified as a disruptor, a green pulse weapon that resembles the Klingon weapon of the same type and some kind of green torpedo that on the surface resembles a photon. The worst part is that they all seem to come from the same emitter which beggars the question are they all just different variations of the same weapon?

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 12:37:51 pm »
Hey Adam, check out the photons that DS9 fires in The Emissary. They don't look like Fed photons and it is unclear whether they were given to the station by the Enterprise or left over from the Cardassians. If the former, then the launcher has a lot to do with the look of the torp, maybe because of what power source is propelling the torp. If the latter then each race that we know uses or has used them has a different color based on who knows what.

Offline Javora

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2014, 01:52:23 pm »
I remember an episode where Kira is facing off against enemy ships and DS9 only has 6 or 8 photons.  She fires all the photons DS9 has over the bow of the enemy ship and fakes the energy signatures to make DS9 appear to have a whole space station full of photons all ready to fire.  IIRC it wasn't until a later season that DS9 was armed to the teeth by the Feds.  Point I'm trying to make is a photons color appears to be tied to the platform that it's being fired from.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2014, 02:13:23 pm »
That's the Emissary episode I was referring to.

Offline Don Karnage

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2014, 05:32:57 pm »
They fed did not have time to arm the station. In a way they send Star Fleet officer to take command of the station that "belong" to the Bajor government.

So, they did say that "all that is left", that mean the Cardasian did not have time to get all before leaving.

Why the fed did not send a "repair crew" to put some defense to the station? The Bajoran have nothing, so they ask the Fed for help and only send a few officers to take command?

That kinda stupid no? Why send officers to take command of space station without any defense, (weapons or shield)?

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2014, 05:40:31 pm »
Because until they found the wormhole it was a pretty unimportant backwater.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2014, 06:51:56 pm »
Then Cardys use photons because they specifically call them photons in the episode.

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2014, 06:59:07 pm »
I just finished watching all of DS9.The Station does have defenses and it does belong to Bajor.It is just he closest system and if the Cardassians did not leave they would still be slaves.

It would of been nice if DS9 would of had defenses in STO

The Quantums were white from Defiant.My other two favourite Fed ships other than the Const amybe couple more.

Star Trek: DS9 - Paradise Lost


I have just watched BSG latest one.I went and singed up for BSGOnline plays pretty good.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2014, 05:34:39 am »
Like I said before, any empire can make what the others use, it's just a matter of resources available.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2014, 01:48:41 pm »
One thing that I've noticed that should be considered regarding Trek and the Primary Weapons (Or Light Weapons if you prefer to call them that) is that, After TOS, (And the only reason this caveat is even in there was when Kirk used the term "Klingon Phasers" in Errand of Mercy) every race's primary weapon is also miniaturized into their ground weapons.  Breen, Romulans, Klingons all use Disruptors as their ground weapons, and they use them as their primary weapon on their Starships.  Cardassians use Phasers for their ground forces, therefore it makes sense that, even though it's never mentioned, that Cardassians would use Phasers as their primary Starship weapons.  It makes logistical sense in that if you have a standard, and limited resources, that you would focus all of your RnD into one branch, rather than have two different research branches (one for your sidearms and one for your Starships), in which case you would specialize in neither, and find yourself behind other races in terms of how powerful your weapons are.  Obviously you'd have some research in the other branch as you'd need to be able to counter other races that decided to go that route, but the bulk of your research would be in your specialized field.

So:  I guess to sum it up.  Cardassians use Phasers on their ships, because that is what their ground weapons are.  As for their heavy weapons, I would agree that Photon Torpedoes seem the most likely, although we don't know for sure.

As an aside, the Romulans set up a field hospital on one of Bajor's moons towards the end of the Dominion War, they then proceeded to import a lot of Tri-Lithium to the field hospital, which (I think it was) Worf (maybe Odo) said was a key component of Romulan Plasma Torpedoes.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2014, 05:12:11 pm »
I often heard that cardies use thier own version of phaser as well photon torps much like Klingons.I know Roms much like to use their plasma torps to wear you down while cloaking in and out.

Yeah.It can be confusing script writer must be tired or a new one.

What the two of you working on btw?I just wished I could figure out how FireSoul did his early ship models to late in his Opplus.

Do you know the Difference between the Galaxy that was used in DS9 being different than the Ent. D?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 06:37:14 pm by Age »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2014, 09:54:58 pm »
The Cardys also use shipbourne disruptors as they were referenced as doing so in a DS9 episode.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2014, 11:02:24 pm »
Watch DS9 "Profit and Loss". They specifically state that they use disruptors on their ships.

And if you want to see what a Galaxy fitted for combat looks like just watch "Yesterday's Enterprise". Tasha pretty much lays it all out.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2014, 08:54:35 am »



In this episode the green beam was identified as a disruptor. We never see the green ball again from the Klingons. It was obviously a change made by the effects team for whatever reason (it is probably faster and easier to draw a beam than animate a tracking torpedo), but you could argue that they are different versions of the same weapon. The ball may be OL's. That would make sense in the context they were used.

I'll get back to you on the Roms after I think about it some.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2014, 01:05:20 pm »
The Bird of Prey Technical Manual stated that all the Birds, (and likely every other Klingon Ship) was customizable based on the needs, and resources of the House building them.  Therefore, if a Bird wanted to be equipped with Phasers, it could be, if a House happened to have access to better Phaser Technology than Disruptor Technology.  While a ship the size of a Vor'cha is not likely to have anything but standard KDF weapons, a particular house could be poor, and not be able to deploy many Torpedoes, so instead of having a Torpedo launcher, they may have replaced a torpedo launcher with an additional disruptor.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2014, 07:12:11 am »


I watched this ep. and I don't agree that they look like the photons fired by the station. It looks more like the green ball of the Klingons; albeit yellow and more sloppy looking. That could be chalked up to the rig job they had to do to power it.

That ep. also has an indirect reference to what the green pulse weapon of the Klingons is and if you take it as canon then disruptors can take at least three forms: beam, torp and pulse.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2014, 09:19:28 am »
Look how clear the tripod flare is on the photons and compare it to how randomly placed they are on the disruptor. The only similarity I see is the color.

I have no idea if your film will play on my machine, but I would tend to doubt it. The film room never really did work very well.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2014, 10:52:12 am »
Quote
If the Galaxy Class was the standard in which all other classes would be based off, hypothetically speaking of course, what would you give the Romulan D'Deridex Class?

Armaments:
12x Phaser X
2x Visible Photon Tubes which fire multiple shots

Strength Indices:

(Galaxy Class Base Value = 100%)
Beam Firepower : 100% (They have stated several times that Romulan weapons are equal to the Feds)
Torpedo Firepower : 100% (Same as above)
Weapon Range and Accuracy : 100% (Same as above)
Shield Strength : 90% (Since they make a habit of not firing first, I always assume the Feds have the best shields and that more aggressive powers count on blowing their opponents up before having a problem, but Roms like a good shield)
Hull Armour : 100% (No basis for comparison, but I assume they'd equip the ships they think need it)
Speed : 90% (Data stated in "Tin Man" that those ships had a slower top speed and they did have to ruin their engines to keep up)
Combat Maneuverability : 115% (Even the effects team makes the Enterprise turn slowly compared to how those ships spin about)
Overall Strength Index : 95%


As far as the weapons "port", it would seem foolish to put everything into one emitter, but it looks like that is what they have done. It's a game balance issue, as putting all that on one HP is impossible and silly. I suppose you could treat the emitter as neutral and line the systems up behind it if the UI will allow that. It is a shame we never get to see any other Rom ship besides the scout craft in "The Defector". They seem to use WB's for just about everyrhing else, although Rom (the Ferengi) did mention a Romulan interceptor.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2014, 01:44:52 pm »
OK, this'll throw a monkey wrench into things - Check out DS9 "Rules of Engagement" and watch the old D7 fire what looks like a TOS first season phaser out of its "torpedo tube/deflector" at the Defiant. It even has a sound effect like a phaser.

The Quantums went through an effects change as well. First they were electric blue and kind of pulsing, but they decided to save money and go with that generic gold "jack" effect.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2014, 03:32:35 pm »
It was red. I just watched it.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2014, 03:57:45 pm »
Seems to me the Klingons are more the PH-B type, but the A is red so...

But it fired too fast to be a two turn weapon.

SFB/SFC just put three to four PH-1's on the nose. Same emitter, multiple shots.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2014, 05:08:50 pm »
All the X2 weapons were designed by Taldren... and it shows. They have no counterparts in SFB or Trek.

I say that the Klingons are more the PH-B type because they aren't interested in jamming your systems, but a weapon that does triple damage on bare hull would definitely interest them. Plus it's short range, just like they like it.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 10:01:25 am »
Things we know about the Breen (so far):

They use disruptors.

Their homeworld is a frozen wasteland.

They have no blood.

Romulans have a saying about them, "Never turn your back on a Breen."


You have the embryo of a culture and philosophy there.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 01:05:32 pm »
Is that all we know lmfao

Oh come on, it's obvious that the Breen home planet is the ice world Hoth and that the Breen are Wampas as it can be seen clearly in (the original) Empire Strikes Back when Luke cuts off its arm that they have no blood. You wouldn't turn your back on a Wampa would you? And if you gave a Wampa a disruptor I'm sure he'd like it.  ;D


Does an Ambassador Class have aft torpedoes. Never see it on the models?

The design does suggest it was a proto-design for a Galaxy so it would seem likely. The launch tube would be in the same area.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2014, 02:17:04 pm »
Hmm did the constitution ever have aft torpedoes.

Only when moving in reverse.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2014, 05:26:58 pm »
Hmm did the constitution ever have aft torpedoes.

This is one of those things I hate about "canon."  The Defiant, from TOS episode The Tholian Web, emerged into the little "Alternate Universe" group of episodes in "Enterprise" and fell under the command of Evil Archer.  Evil Archer had aft torpedoes at his disposal.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2014, 05:59:53 pm »
I'd forgotten about that. They seem to eminate from right above the shuttle bay where the running light is. That actually helps the Ambassador theory as they look like a cross between a Constitution and a Galaxy. In fact it looks to me like the Ambassador was supposed to be the new Constitution class.

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2014, 06:59:55 pm »
Hmm did the constitution ever have aft torpedoes.


This is one of those things I hate about "canon."  The Defiant, from TOS episode The Tholian Web, emerged into the little "Alternate Universe" group of episodes in "Enterprise" and fell under the command of Evil Archer.  Evil Archer had aft torpedoes at his disposal.

you mean this one I just love this video.


Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2014, 07:02:01 pm »
Is that all we know lmfao

Corb,
Does an Ambassador Class have aft torpedoes. Never see it on the models?

Adam
I would think so if the Excelsior does.

What book is that map in?

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2014, 07:28:21 pm »
I believe they their rear torps.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2014, 02:47:43 pm »
Only time was Dreadnought in VOY(torpedoes)...


They mentioned in that ep that the Quantums would have to be reconfigured to fire from Fed launchers, so our theory about different colors because of different launcher systems holds up.

The bomb also used something that looked like an ESG against those alien fighters.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2014, 03:13:57 pm »
I looked again at the shots of the Cardassian fleet turning on the Dominion at the end. I think that the yellow beam coming from the red square at the front is supposed to be a disruptor beam. Unfortunately, they look just like the phasers coming from other parts of their ships; unless those are disruptors too.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2014, 04:21:44 pm »
No real implication there; Jellico said for them to jettison their phaser coils. The Cardassian complaining that that would leave them defenseless I chalk up to their usual hyperbole.

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2014, 05:49:32 pm »
The Dominion use Tetryons as they are white.It is probably the reason they can get thru your shields.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2014, 09:10:15 pm »
The Dominion use Tetryons as they are white.It is probably the reason they can get thru your shields.

Dominion weapons only ignored shields until the Feds captured that downed ship. After that their shields (and everyone else they shared with) worked fine.

Offline Age

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2014, 08:56:05 pm »
The Dominion use Tetryons as they are white.It is probably the reason they can get thru your shields.


Dominion weapons only ignored shields until the Feds captured that downed ship. After that their shields (and everyone else they shared with) worked fine.

Sorry they had Polorons which drains energy from shields and there no counter.


Offline Corbomite

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Re: Canon Clarification
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2014, 09:38:51 pm »
The Dominion use Tetryons as they are white.It is probably the reason they can get thru your shields.

Dominion weapons only ignored shields until the Feds captured that downed ship. After that their shields (and everyone else they shared with) worked fine.
Sorry they had Polorons which drains energy from shields and there no counter.


That clip is from their first encounter. See the episode "The Ship" and then check out the episode "Call To Arms" from 32:30. They adapted.