Topic: Voyager vs. Enterprise D  (Read 33417 times)

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Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« on: December 11, 2004, 10:12:10 am »
So, who do you think would win between Picard and his crew on D, or Janeway and her crew on Voyager?  Feel free to compare the personnel to their counterparts on the other vessel. 


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline Redshift the Kook

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2004, 10:17:37 am »
I don't think a Galaxy class starship would have any problems taking on an Intrepid class.

Besides, if one were attacking the other then one crew would have to have their minds taken over by a giant wobbly jelly alien or something.  :P
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Offline Villa64

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 10:20:07 am »
OT.

Unless you are asking about Star Trek vs Star WARS.  Then you can post the topic here.

 ;D
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Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2004, 10:22:09 am »
Huh?  What does O...Old Topic.  Okay.  Well, I wasn't sure.  I was actually more interested in how everyone would view the crews of the series, best captain, XO, yada yada than actual battle, because I do agree that Voyager would rip the Enterprise apart.


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline Lord_Sloth

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2004, 11:06:30 am »
Hmm...Ship to ship I really don't know so I wont answer that...


Janeway vs Picard=Janeway. She's younger, smarter, and better than Picard.

Chacotay vs. Riker=Riker. He overthrew a Klignon commander, taking over his ship.

Tuvok vs Worf=I'd have to say Worf.

Harry vs Data=Data. Harry was just a wuss. Data can take bullet's in stride.

Tom vs Wesley=Tom was a fighter to a degree which is more than I can say for Wesley. Besides, I just don't like Wesley.

Dr.Crusher vs Doctor= Doctor. There's nothin Crusher can do to harm him really.

Geordi vs Belona=Belona. She's half Klignon.
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2004, 11:21:23 am »
So, who do you think would win between Picard and his crew on D, or Janeway and her crew on Voyager?  Feel free to compare the personnel to their counterparts on the other vessel. 

Hand to hand?  I think Picard and his crew of c. 900 would walk all over Janeway and her crew of c. 300.  ;)  :P

Besides, it really doesn't matter.  Kirk would raise one eyebrow and "take" Janeway while Dr. McCoy kicked Picard's a$$ and Spock took a nap.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2004, 11:23:53 am »
Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Checkov, Uhura, & Scotty would burn their butts...
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Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2004, 11:52:36 am »
First, Janeway would have better taste than to get together with the intergalactic whore named Kirk.  That, and she'd kick his butt just for good measure.
   Sulu would walk all over just about anyone that wanted to fight. 
   Spock would be able to deal with anyone except for Data, and then I'd give the edge to Spock for sheer ability to think outside the normal parameters.
   Doctors would be pretty hard to compare.   All three were good.
   Engineers?   I'd have to go with Scotty.  Give him a roll of duct tape and a bit of baling wire, and you'd be back in warp in no time.
   Best XO?  Spock. 
   Chekov was a moron. 
   Uhura was a radiogirl in a mini-skirt.  She was basically intergalactic eye candy.


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline jualdeaux

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2004, 12:15:49 pm »
I think that Voyager would be able to take The E D for one reason. Voyager has some method of producing an unlimited number of photon torps. That has to give it the edge.
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2004, 12:26:56 pm »
The Enterprise also has an annoying tendency to lose its starboard power coupling after taking the slightest hit.  Even if the shields were up.

The more I watch how Picard behaves in TNG vs how he behaves in the movies, the more I'm convinced that the Enterprise=D was a poorly built ship and her captain was fully aware of it, hence his lack of aggression.  When provided with a more resilient vessel, he became more willing to engage in combat. ;D
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KnightAdvancer

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2004, 12:31:57 pm »
Who cares? They both loose to a D'Deridex.

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2004, 12:35:37 pm »
Nah.  Those things strike me as big, expensive, white elephants.

Ever notice how the smaller, more manueverable ships tend to inflict more damage to the other side while avoiding the larger ship's counter blows?  Could be why most of the newer Star Fleet vessels are smaller and why the Valdore's in Nemesis have a much sleeker (probably to imply speed and agility) design.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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KnightAdvancer

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2004, 01:02:04 pm »
Also noticed how the Scimitar, twice as big as both the Valdore-types and the Enterprise-E, mopped the floor with all of them? The Enterprise-D and Voyager got beat up plenty of times by ships bigger than them. The Valiant Defiant-class got the unholy Hell beat out of it by that Jem'Hedar battleship in seconds (remember Nog saying how much of a danger it posed to anything in, what, sixty lightyears?). And I don't remember swarms of smaller attack vessels taking down larger ships in the big fleet battles that much, either. It was mostly relatively small attack ships destroying the other small attack ships, like scriminshing destroyer screens. 

 Also, I tend to think that the D'Deridex and Valdore fullfill different roles. I view the D'Deridex as more of a anchoring ship-of-the-line or battleship, while the Valdore-types are more along the lines of frigates or cruisers.

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2004, 01:13:43 pm »
Swarms of Jem'Hadar fighters seemed pretty effective against large numbers of D'Deridex class Warbirds when the Tal'Shiar was lured into the Founder's trap.

I agree with you about the D'Deridex's role in the fleet, but one on one, I suspect a more manueverable ship, such as the Defiant could do quite well versus one.

Of course, that's WHY they'd have screens of smaller ships...
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline Redshift the Kook

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2004, 01:30:17 pm »
I think the big D was quite an ambitious ship when it was made, not the first in its class but a more solid shaken down version. I always thought the look of it was interesting and while most ships built after it took on more of an anti-borg style the Intrepid design seemed to continue with the design elements of the Galaxy class. Both were built for exploration in mind but while the Intrepid had well rounded defenses the Galaxy class starships had a better offensive capability, not counting it's size.

It would be interesting to see if Janeway would have the knowledge to take advantage of some the Enterprise D's weaknesses, if she did the battle would be a lot closer.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2004, 01:43:14 pm »
There were maybe twenty warbirds in that fleet, the rest were Cardassian Keldons. I believe the Jem'Hedar fleet counted some hundreds. Not sure if they brought some of their battlecruisers or not. Did they learn how to defeat the shield-piecing qualities of the Jem'Hedar phased polaron weapons yet? Don't believe so... In anycase, we didn't actually see the battle, so we don't know how well the Romulan/Cardassian fleet truly fared against the odds.

As to one-on-one, I would remember the cloaking device the D'Deridex has, which should give it the element of surprise and superior positioning. And considering the opening salvo from a D'Deridex is enough to knock down the Enterpise-D's shields to twenty percent, I do not believe it to be far fetched to say that a smaller attackship could be destroyed outright.

Offline Fedman NCC-3758

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2004, 07:15:11 pm »
Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Checkov, Uhura, & Scotty would burn their butts...


Man you're OLD!!   ;D ;D

Right on bro.  :thumbsup:
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Offline Lord_Sloth

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2004, 07:18:17 pm »
Swarms of Jem'Hadar fighters seemed pretty effective against large numbers of D'Deridex class Warbirds when the Tal'Shiar was lured into the Founder's trap.


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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2004, 08:57:11 am »
As to one-on-one, I would remember the cloaking device the D'Deridex has, which should give it the element of surprise and superior positioning. And considering the opening salvo from a D'Deridex is enough to knock down the Enterpise-D's shields to twenty percent, I do not believe it to be far fetched to say that a smaller attackship could be destroyed outright.

And yet their firepower seemed insufficent to quickly destroy one of their own scout ships in the episode with the defecting Admiral.  I agree they could probably swat a Dominion attack ship, but those things don't exactly seem to be built with survivability in mind.

In any case, there is very little consistency on-screen when it comes to the D'Deridex-class.  Probably because as combative bad-guys go, the Romulans are under-used.
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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2004, 01:09:51 pm »
As to one-on-one, I would remember the cloaking device the D'Deridex has, which should give it the element of surprise and superior positioning. And considering the opening salvo from a D'Deridex is enough to knock down the Enterpise-D's shields to twenty percent, I do not believe it to be far fetched to say that a smaller attackship could be destroyed outright.

And yet their firepower seemed insufficent to quickly destroy one of their own scout ships in the episode with the defecting Admiral.  I agree they could probably swat a Dominion attack ship, but those things don't exactly seem to be built with survivability in mind.

In any case, there is very little consistency on-screen when it comes to the D'Deridex-class.  Probably because as combative bad-guys go, the Romulans are under-used.

That would be because they weren't trying to kill him.  They're Romulans, after all.  They wanted it to look like that Admiral was defecting so that he'd be a more effective plant.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2004, 03:07:36 pm »
Ent D is a superior fighting ship to voyageur, hands down.  While voyageur had quantum torpedoes, the Ent D was loaded to the teeth with photon torpedoes and had more launchers than voyaguer.  More phaser arrays also helps.  The saucer seperation thing also would be of big help, allowing the D to break into two targets if need be, also giving the drive section manuevering capabilities that would allow it to be more competetive with voyageur. 
As for the crews: voyageur's sucks.  Nearly all of the episodes went way beyond suspension of disbelief.  They were stupid, always making stupid decisions and not paying any real price for them. 
Janeway is not as good a captain as pricard
Chakotay sucks comared to riker
Torres isn't as good as jordi, not by a long shot
Harry is an elementary science flunkee compared to Data
Tuvok is a wuss compared to worf
Tom is alright, and since Ent D never really got an outstanding helmsman for any length of time voyageur has them beat here
Doctor would be spending all his time worrying about holographic equal rights and adding holographic appendages to himself, so crusher has him beat.
Summary- voyageur can't compare with the Ent D, and the crew of voyageur sucks donkey butt so it's a hands down Ent D over voyageur.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2004, 07:18:12 pm »
What's sad is that I came up with that off the top of my head, with no need to think it over.
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2004, 05:55:46 am »
Quote
That would be because they weren't trying to kill him.  They're Romulans, after all.  They wanted it to look like that Admiral was defecting so that he'd be a more effective plant.

Nice counter, but the Romulans are supposed to be masters of intrigue, right?  They're not going to go ahead with an already-risky plot if it'd have been impossible for the scout to resist the Warbird's firepower.  That's far too big of a hole in their story...though...

...perhaps Berman used to work for Romulan intelligence. ;D
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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KnightAdvancer

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2004, 06:33:39 pm »
Actually, in the episode La Forge goes over some readings and comments about how the Warbird continuously slows down to keep pace with the scout as it damages it, and perhaps something about reducing weapons output as well. 'It's almost as if they don't want to catch 'em' He says to the effect of, and mentions that the Warbird would of overran the scout if it held it's speed. As soon as scout reaches the Enterprise the Warbird cloaks and moves off, without some much as a threat. It later becomes apparent that Admiral Jarok was being fed bogus information to see if he would turn, and if he did, to use that bogus information he had to lure the Federation into a trap. 

I think your getting soft, La'ra. I thought you knew your episodes better than that. Ol' Tremok is disappointed in you.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2004, 08:51:09 pm »
The Ent D had a glass jaw. fart in combat and you had a warp core breach, or lost a power coupling etc. She could dish it out but did not seem to be able to take it.

 Voyager seemed like a lot tougher ship. And Jane way seemed a wole lote scarier when she was pissed, than Picard ever did.

" Hell hath no fury than the wrath of a woman."  Remember what she did to the borg for ticking her off?

 Picard talks too much, And i think personally Riker is a joke.  Voyager for me.

Offline Fedman NCC-3758

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2004, 09:00:38 pm »
"I was out saving the galaxy while your grandfather was still in his diapers" : Kirk to Picard

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Offline E_Look

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2004, 09:02:54 pm »
Didn't Scotty first use that line on Geordi before Kirk got to spring it on Picard?

Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2004, 09:03:55 pm »
The Ent D had a glass jaw. fart in combat and you had a warp core breach, or lost a power coupling etc. She could dish it out but did not seem to be able to take it.

 Voyager seemed like a lot tougher ship. And Jane way seemed a wole lote scarier when she was pissed, than Picard ever did.

" Hell hath no fury than the wrath of a woman."  Remember what she did to the borg for ticking her off?

 Picard talks too much, And i think personally Riker is a joke.  Voyager for me.

I dunno, Ent D held up alright to the borg, and a few others as well.
A sfor voyageur, suspension of disbelief is a term they don't comprehend.  No, they live in the land of disbelief and BS.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
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Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
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Offline Fedman NCC-3758

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2004, 09:10:38 pm »
Didn't Scotty first use that line on Geordi before Kirk got to spring it on Picard?

Maybe, but it doesn't matter.  The old guard was putting the youngins in their place. he-he  ;)
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2004, 10:45:16 pm »
Actually, in the episode La Forge goes over some readings and comments about how the Warbird continuously slows down to keep pace with the scout as it damages it, and perhaps something about reducing weapons output as well. 'It's almost as if they don't want to catch 'em' He says to the effect of, and mentions that the Warbird would of overran the scout if it held it's speed. As soon as scout reaches the Enterprise the Warbird cloaks and moves off, without some much as a threat. It later becomes apparent that Admiral Jarok was being fed bogus information to see if he would turn, and if he did, to use that bogus information he had to lure the Federation into a trap. 

I think your getting soft, La'ra. I thought you knew your episodes better than that. Ol' Tremok is disappointed in you.

It's been about four years since I've seen that one...

..though, that was rather sloppy of them, wasn't it?

And I was wondering if that was you when the D'Deridex comment came flyin' out of the cosmos like that. ;D
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2004, 05:43:06 am »
Those BoPs did show up rather...huge, didn't they? ;D
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline WillDecker

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2004, 07:01:09 am »
I would definitely have to say the classic seven would hand all of them their asses on a platter.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2004, 07:37:04 am »
Who would win out of Janeway and Picard?? Well, Kirk of course...  :rwoot:
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Offline 14G_Tiger

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2004, 09:00:12 am »
The Enterprise also has an annoying tendency to lose its starboard power coupling after taking the slightest hit.  Even if the shields were up.

The more I watch how Picard behaves in TNG vs how he behaves in the movies, the more I'm convinced that the Enterprise=D was a poorly built ship and her captain was fully aware of it, hence his lack of aggression.  When provided with a more resilient vessel, he became more willing to engage in combat. ;D

It didnt have anything to do with the children on the -D?

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2004, 09:55:36 am »
An excellent point.
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Offline Redshift the Kook

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2004, 07:05:47 am »
Lol, so what about poor Sisko? I know a lot of the time he didn't do much but there were instances where he went "medieval" on the Dominian.
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Offline IKSKevin

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2004, 02:04:31 pm »
What about the start of the Dominion Wars....the lead attack vessels were Galaxies....they were kicking butt and taking names...they should just release a 2 hour long, "Star Trek Ship Wars"....send it RIGHT to video....it would sell good...no story line, just lots of ST ships fighting....**sigh**

Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2004, 04:32:26 pm »
In TNG, Picard was given a ship with over 1000 people on it, at least 300 of which were civilians or children.  As such, he had to act more like a mayor of a town than the commander of the Federation Flagship.  In the movies, Picard was given a ship of battle, staffed by 700 of the Starfleet's finest, to back up the Picard that beat down a Ferengi ship 3 times the size of his Stargazer 30(?) years previous.


I think Picard is the better officer, able to adapt to different situations.  Janeway by all rights should've had her ass handed to her MANY MANY times and IF she ever managed to get home it should've been in a stolen Kazon or Hirogen ship.... wait... Hirogen?   they'd ler her steal a ship?!?  LMAO


There is one episode that describes the whole series:  Year of Hell.


I pose another question:  Archer or Picard
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Offline IKSKevin

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2004, 02:52:19 pm »
Picard by far....ALTHOUGH I am one of the few die-hard Star Trek fans that enjoys "Enterprise"...I really hope it doens't get canceled. ???

Offline E_Look

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2004, 07:09:00 pm »
Hear!  Hear!  Paramount!  Keep the show on!

Offline 14G_Tiger

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2005, 02:33:21 pm »
cant compare those two...different rule sets for each..no prime directive, etc.

Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2005, 09:35:36 pm »
true, however, think of an instance where Archer would "forget" the Prime Directive ever existed, just like he all but said "screw the Temporal Prime Directive"


Archer's more exciting, but he'd never be given a ship in the later series
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Offline 14G_Tiger

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2005, 08:02:38 am »
i would second the 'screw the TPD'...it was formed in future why should it effect me?

Offline SilentUnion05

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2012, 08:17:30 am »
Considering Voyager has integrated borg sheilding along with armour plating, technology from the future (adrimal janeway's tech/weapons), it is a slightly faster vessel, much smaller and more agile then the large galaxy class vessel enterprise. Also it has been equiped with tri-cobalt torpedoes. Also the torpedoes janeway brought would reak havoc on the enterprise' sheilds. Plus voyager has the delta flyer.. an auxilary ship to help when needed..

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2012, 10:14:32 am »
Why are you guys necroing this thread after 7 years?

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2012, 07:33:54 pm »
Who would win out of Janeway and Picard?? Well, Kirk of course...  :rwoot:
Most Definetly.

I would say Voyager as it is more manuoverable and being science ship can fly ring around the Enterprise D.

I don't like necroing either but since some one did.

Offline Vipre

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2012, 08:00:28 pm »
Minds lost is a sad thing to see. :)

Two views...

Intrepid/Voyager Ep 1 v. Galaxy/Ent D same stardate = Galaxy hands down. As with the Defiant it's a "tough little ship" but get a grip all, in a heads up fight it's KO'd before half the D's torp stock is fired.

Voyager Final Ep vs. Ent D in Generations, I think Voyager due to Janeway's temporal tampering and Seven's borg boosts over the series run. Recall that the D was lost same year Voyager was in the badlands, very shortly after, so there'd be no new shields or weapon systems which other ships might've gotten during the "Voyager years".

Voyager crew v. Enterprise crew that I'd give the edge to Voyager due to the Maquis members likelihood to think "outside the box" versus all the Ent crew in my mind being more likely to stick to the Starfleet "playbook".
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 08:16:34 pm by Vipre »
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 06:06:14 pm »
I was following the Excalibur project and I do check it out once in awhile.

@Vipre don't forget that the D uses isolinear chips and Voyager doesn't it us bioneral packs which is probably faster.The Defiant can kick the D rear with it cannons q torps.

Offline Vipre

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 06:57:08 pm »
The Defiant can kick the D rear with it cannons q torps.

Need to check under your bed for a plasma coolant leak...or maybe just carbon monoxide.  ;D The Defiant would be in the same boat it was in vs the Cube in FC, adrift awaiting salvage.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 11:58:01 pm »
It's real simple... The Galaxy Class is a Dreadnought, the Intrepid is a Light Cruiser.  The Galaxy may be a slow, ponderous whale, but it has more than enough stamina and firepower to outlast an Intrepid.  If it were an obstacle course or a race, I'd take the Intrepid every time.  But for straight up, who's gonna kick who's ass?  Galaxy.

As for what ship I'd rather take... The Intrepid.  I hate slow, ponderous whales.  I think a crew of 1000 is too much.  I'd like to at least know the name of every crewman on my ship, and be able to say good morning to each of them without having to stop and think hard about the name of the Ensign that just passed me in the corridor.
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Offline Vipre

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2012, 02:13:16 am »
But that's what I'm saying, if we are counting Voaygers enhancements after the seven season, Borg and Etc... Can't we assume all Galaxy's would get bionueral circuitry upgrades, quantums, shields, and etc...

Adam

We can assume "all Galaxy's would" but not the Enterprise because it was destroyed beginning of season 1. On equal ground Voyager's toast, it's only the seven year gap plus unique enhancements that give it any shot.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2012, 09:17:34 am »
Well, Since this thread seems to be alive now, I guess I'll add my two cents.  Voyager is the functional equivalent of a light cruiser.  I remember seeing one of the pre-launch interviews where it was described as being able to go places a larger starship couldn't, such as navigating the badlands.  That said the Galaxy class fills that much needed niche of a dreadnought/cruise ship.  In terms of combat power, the Enterprise was considered the equivalent of a D'deridex class warbird, but Tuvok seemed to believe that the most prudent course of action for Voyager to take when confronted with such a threat was to retreat.

But that's what I'm saying, if we are counting Voaygers enhancements after the seven season, Borg and Etc... Can't we assume all Galaxy's would get bionueral circuitry upgrades, quantums, shields, and etc...

Adam

We can assume "all Galaxy's would" but not the Enterprise because it was destroyed beginning of season 1. On equal ground Voyager's toast, it's only the seven year gap plus unique enhancements that give it any shot.

I doubt the bio-neural circuitry would have given Voyager a great combat advantage.  That said, If we're counting the End Game enhancements on Voyager, we have to give the D the same enhancements that dominion war era galaxies would receive.  Also, since the Enterprise E didn't have any of the End Game enhancements in Nemesis, it could be assumed that those Starfleet dogooders chose to shelve the enhancements to prevent further corruption to the timeline, and that the enhancements were probably removed from Voyager.  I do think Voyager has a chance of taking out the D's petting zoo though.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2012, 09:48:18 am »
The Enterprise D is a good medium dreadnought but it lacks good heavy hitting weapons on its Star/Port sides and is mainly designed as a forward hitting hold the line dread while taking lots of damage overall, negating MVAM. Voyager easily would have the ability to squeeze past the for/rear weapons and get into that safer zone, and be able to do some serious damage, especially if it unloaded all of its photon torpedos and phaser bank discharges while waiting for the Enterprise to finish turning around to face them.. in which case Voyager wins.

With MVAM, it would actually be a pretty fair fight.. the saucer section holds minimal phasers compared to the battle section, and the battle section would be able to bring its full weapons on Voyager much sooner, in which case, def Enterprise D would win just with shear weapons and power compared to Voyager.

Bring in the Voyager new tech though and Voyager wins vs everything starfleet has to offer.. Transphasic torpedos dont just apply to borg shielding weaknesses.

I doubt the bio-neural circuitry would have given Voyager a great combat advantage.  That said, If we're counting the End Game enhancements on Voyager, we have to give the D the same enhancements that dominion war era galaxies would receive.  Also, since the Enterprise E didn't have any of the End Game enhancements in Nemesis, it could be assumed that those Starfleet dogooders chose to shelve the enhancements to prevent further corruption to the timeline, and that the enhancements were probably removed from Voyager.  I do think Voyager has a chance of taking out the D's petting zoo though.

Also possible Starfleet didn't see the need to immediatly upgrade every ship in the fleet with the armor/weapon tech, most likely it would have been applied to prototype vessels and pure defensive ships such as whichever ships might be on Earth guard patrol duty used as a last resort.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2012, 10:43:24 am »
It's also possible that the advanced weapons is something that Starfleet didn't want to risk falling into Romulan or other hands, and didn't deploy them in ships that could be subject to intensive scans or outright boarding.  Of course, I think it's most likely that Main-line Starfleet Operations said, this whole freaking ship is a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive, if we let this technology out to the fleet, we'd never have any Captain follow that directive again.  Of course that doesn't stop Section 31 from applying some of the tech (at least the Torpedoes) to ships that are under their control.

I don't think that the Intrepid would be able to stay in the blind spots long and not be close enough for aggressive tractoring tactics.  Even if the Intrepid breaks the tractor lock as quickly as possible, it's still long enough for the Galaxy to bring the Intrepid into the firing arc of which ever torpedo launcher is closer.

I also don't believe that the Galaxy would get the Bio-neural circuits.  That is a massive overhaul that is akin to the Constitution Refit of the 2270s.  With Shipyards building Sovereigns, (and whatever the Titan is) I don't see many, if any, new Galaxies being built.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2012, 11:12:49 am »
Galaxy class ships were being completed into the Dominion war, although according to behind the scenes statements, the wartime Galaxies were more stripped down lacking all of the useless #$%^ that I constantly criticize the D for having.  I would have to assume that those Galaxies had bio-neural circuitry.  I also don't think the overhaul would be as huge a task as the constitution rebuild.  I remember one of the early Voyager episodes had the gel packs succumbing to an infection, and Chakotay recommended converting the circuitry to isolinear.  Since the recommendation wasn't shot down as completely unfeasible, It can be assumed that a conversion in the field was possible.  Therefore it would also be possible for a Galaxy class to receive bio-neurals in a regular overhaul.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 09:25:38 pm by knightstorm »

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2012, 01:19:42 pm »
It's also possible that the advanced weapons is something that Starfleet didn't want to risk falling into Romulan or other hands, and didn't deploy them in ships that could be subject to intensive scans or outright boarding.  Of course, I think it's most likely that Main-line Starfleet Operations said, this whole freaking ship is a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive, if we let this technology out to the fleet, we'd never have any Captain follow that directive again.  Of course that doesn't stop Section 31 from applying some of the tech (at least the Torpedoes) to ships that are under their control.

I don't think that the Intrepid would be able to stay in the blind spots long and not be close enough for aggressive tractoring tactics.  Even if the Intrepid breaks the tractor lock as quickly as possible, it's still long enough for the Galaxy to bring the Intrepid into the firing arc of which ever torpedo launcher is closer.

I also don't believe that the Galaxy would get the Bio-neural circuits.  That is a massive overhaul that is akin to the Constitution Refit of the 2270s.  With Shipyards building Sovereigns, (and whatever the Titan is) I don't see many, if any, new Galaxies being built.

Really depends  on how you approach a Galaxy ship.. approach it from the fore/aft sections, your going to have trouble approaching, come at it from the ventral and tractors and phasers are there, which are hard but not impossible to beat if Voyager lays it on thick.. but approaching from Dorsal, you really only have phasers in your way, and impulse, warp engines, shield generators, some weapons, and bridge are all quite targetable.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2012, 03:24:24 pm »
But a post Dominion war Galaxy class has a buttload of phasers on its dorsal arc.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2012, 10:35:06 pm »
When Chakotay made that suggestion, I think it also wasn't mentioned that it would significantly degrade their performance either.  I'm wondering how big of an advantage the Bio-Neural circuits are.  No matter how fast the message gets sent from Ops/Helm/Tactical to the corresponding systems, the biggest lag factor is from the Captain's mouth, to the Officer's fingers.

Also, Voyager's hull number is 74656, The Defiant's hull number is 74205.  Only 451 ships were commissioned between the two.  And up to the very end, O'Brien didn't take the opportunity to swap out the Isolinear chips from the Defiant and replace them with the Bio-packs.  If it could be done in the field, which (as Voyager indicates) is likely, it should have only taken a week at the most.  Surely there was some time that O'Brien could have found to do that upgrade.

Also a lot is made about the number of Phasers pointed in each direction.  But the Galaxy's main Phaser Arrays are the Dorsal Saucer and Ventral Saucer.  Those two Phaser Arrays give nearly a full sphere of fire.  Only directly aft, and slightly below to the aft are not touchable by those Phasers.  The rest are simply added bonuses.  If a Galaxy is going to hurt you by Phasers, the strike is going to come from those two arrays, or the Ventral array.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2012, 11:34:05 pm »
You really can't go by hull numbers because they've never made any sense.  Originally they were supposed to be sequential, but the TOS production crew was to cheap to fabricate a new decal, so they started happening without any ryme or reason.  I can think of a couple of reasons why the Defiant didn't get upgraded.  The ship had to be maintained on call to defend DS9 from a dominion attack.  As such, it couldn't afford to have the period of diminished capacity that an upgrade to bio-neural would entail.  Like I said before, I imagine the bio-neural circuitry would be less useful in a sublight combat situation so it would have been less of a priority compared to other upgrades such as the overhauled structural integrity field, quantum torpedoes, and ablative armor which the Defiant did receive.  Another explanation might be that as an "escort," the Defiant didn't have as powerful a computer, so it couldn't make use of the bio-neural.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2012, 11:59:58 pm »
The hull numbers actually make sense if you go by the Franz Joesph number system up to a certain point.  If you accept the notion that most of the Constitutions are numbered in the 16xx range, then it doesn't. (The Maintenance chart that everyone started taking as "THE LIST" of Constitutions, it was very clear to me from the original VHS that that list was the ships that were currently at that base for one reason or another) Sometime after the Excelsior they obviously did away with the old system of batching hull numbers for each class of ship.  (Constitutions start at 1700,  Mirandas start at 1850, Excelsiors start at 2000, whatever other classes in the middle)  At that point they just assigned ships the next number in sequence, but to account for all the hull numbers, 38000 commissioned (and decommissioned) ships in just over 80 years, and 30000 more just seven years later, one does have to wonder just what they were assigning hull numbers to.  It's possible that they started assigning hull numbers to non-military ships (The Raven is a good example of that) its also possible that a number of ships were commissioned during the Cardassian War, the flare up resulting in the Tomed Incident, and the Borg scare, but never completed.  A number of hulls were commissioned by the US Navy during the tail end of WW2 that were never actually built.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2012, 12:10:44 am »
USS Constellation (The Doomsday Machine)-NCC-1017.  If I had time I could go through several other ships which appeared in Trek that don't fit in.  Originally, the hull number list was supposed to follow a chronological order, but that fell apart as production progressed.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2012, 12:31:42 am »
aye, that ship and the USS Republic NCC-1371.  Although it was always assumed that the Republic was a Constitution, rather than potentially being another class of ship.  No other ships appeared in the Original Original Series (not the remastered), that showed their hull numbers.  (Hood, Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin, Exeter, and Defiant were other ships that were shown, but it was always either from too far away to see the registry, or from an angle that didn't show it, because all they did was re-show stock footage of the Enterprise)

The Constellation you could explain as the same reason they started doing 1701-A, 1701-B.  Something the original Constellation did warranted another ship being awarded the same hull number, to carry on the legacy.

But we've gotten off topic, a discussion on hull numbers doesn't bring anything more to the Intrepid (Voyager) vs Galaxy (Enterprise -D)  And I still stand by my original statement.  While the Galaxy would win the fight, I'd still rather be in command of an Intrepid.
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Offline Vipre

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2012, 01:33:13 am »
Meh, what does a little off topic hurt in a zombie thread...

"At that point they just assigned ships the next number in sequence, but to account for all the hull numbers, 38000 commissioned (and decommissioned) ships in just over 80 years, and 30000 more just seven years later, one does have to wonder just what they were assigning hull numbers to.  It's possible that they started assigning hull numbers to non-military ships (The Raven is a good example of that) its also possible that a number of ships were commissioned during the Cardassian War, the flare up resulting in the Tomed Incident, and the Borg scare, but never completed.  A number of hulls were commissioned by the US Navy during the tail end of WW2 that were never actually built."

Another possibility is they switched to a numbering system similar to one our school buses switched two back when I was in middle school where the first one or two numbers stood for something separate from the physical count. In the bus instance it stood for the year of purchase so new bus #12 in the fleet became I think 9212 or something. No guess on what you might be able to plug in for Starfleet though.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2012, 11:02:33 am »
Does the Sovereign Class, EntE have bio-neural circuitry?

Adam

It's harder in movies to show the "ugly innards" of a ship like you can in a series.  Just not enough time.  I would assume that the answer is yes, but it was never shown or spoken of in the three movies.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2012, 01:37:52 pm »
I still stand by my original statement.  While the Galaxy would win the fight, I'd still rather be in command of an Intrepid.

But that means you wouldn't have a petting zoo.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2012, 02:10:19 pm »
Does the Sovereign Class, EntE have bio-neural circuitry?

Adam
I'd honestly be shocked if it didnt considering it was already put on starships before the EntE was even built, so most likely, yes..but to be honest there would be little (some but not a lot) of tactical advantage.. probably the biggest would be determining cloaked ship position based on hull impacts such as in Nemesis, but its main advantage is going to be in data analysis and calculations/'fuzzy' logic.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2012, 12:43:08 am »
The root of the thread is who would win, Enterprise-D or Voyager. Since Star Trek is riddled with anomolies and temporal mumbo-jumbo, it is theoretically possible, therefore, that the future Ent-D seen in TNG:"All Good Things..." could be used to fight against the Warship Voyager as seen in VOY:"Living Witness". This would result in a confronation using:

Quote from: From Memory Alpha - Enterprise - X
In this alternate future, the Enterprise had undergone several significant modifications, including the addition of a third nacelle, a cloaking device, and a powerful phaser mounted underneath the saucer section. She single-handedly destroyed one Klingon battleship with 8 shots from this phaser. The first hit and two others went straight through both the enemy shields and hull, forcing another to retreat while rescuing the USS Pasteur crew, following Picard's attempt to find the anomaly.
This ship would include all available upgrades to a ship of ~2395, retain similar crew levels to the base Galaxy class (~1014) and still be, as stated earlier, a whale.

vs.

Quote from: From Memory Alpha - Warship Voyager
The starship featured:
■ 300 soldiers, including those assimilated from Delta Quadrant species
■ A triple-armored hull
■ 30 torpedo tubes
■ 25 phaser banks
■ Assault probes and fighter-shuttles
■ A complement of Borg warrior-drones
■ An Emergency Medical Android
Despite the large increase in crew and weapons, this vessel would still retain the one major advantage that the Intrepid class has over the Galaxy class - maneuverability.

I only see two outcomes from the battle between the two vessels above: a marginal victory as the Warship Voyager destroys the Enterprise after a long and bloody engagement which forces the abandonment of the Warship Voyager, or the Warship Voyager's on-board Borg assimilate the Enterprise, leading to a merger of both ships and the Warship Voaygerprise-D continues home, destroying random innocent civilizations at warp 13.975.

However, we need to look at this from a more practical Apples to Apples point of view. We can't assume the standard "random anomaly/time travel" line. We could play the "alternate reality" card - assume that Voyager was taken over by the Maquis and used the Caretaker to return home before the Enterprise was destroyed. However, we will not go with the standard Trek faire of imaginary posibilities. We will assume that Voyager and Enterprise-D meet in a wargames exercise similar to the Hathaway and Enterprise-D in TNG:"Peak Performance", following the launch of Voayger (Stardate 48038.5) and before her "loss" (Stardate 48315.6). Such an encounter would probably occur as part of the Enterprise-Ds Generations refits (occured in early 2371 - around the time of Voyager's launch and at the probable time of her shakedown cruise). This would be the most likely time of interaction between the two vessels in a "real" way.

My assumption here is that the encounter would be with Enterprise-D post-refit, a viable and logical test of both ships, systems and crews before they left Sol system for the cold embrace of deep space. However, there is little evidence of when the refit occured, just that it happend in 2371 - the same year that the Dominion was becoming a threat, thus, it could be seen as a partial Dominion War refit that was applied to the rest of the Galaxy class ships. Then again, it could have just been a planned upgrade. For the purposes of the V vs. E-D encounter, the refit won't be considered to have an impact in the overall results, and therefore can be considered to have not happened, and that the encounter is two ships that happen to be available shooting lasers at each other with their computers assessing the "damage".

Now, since we know that the encounter could only have occured before Stardate 48315.6, Voyager's crew does not have Harry Kim, Tom Paris or any Maquis, Borg, Talaxian or Ocompan  crew members, and her doctor isn't a hologram (Note: we can assume that the Ent-D may have recieved an EMH somewhere around this time, but since neither ship should need to use an EMH in the "battle", both EMHs can be considered as "not used" or "not installed" as appropriate). We also know that Wes Crusher would not be available in the "battle" since he went off to explore the galaxy. For the sake of crew vs. crew, we'd have generic helmsman vs. generic helmsman (stalemate), and (at least 7 years as a) Doctor vs. (unkown experience as a) Doctor. Voyager's doctor seemed like a total dork and was a bit cocky. He might have been good, but we have no real basis to judge his abilities. In the end, though, Crusher would get the win as Doctor - She's going to see, treat, and save more simulated injuries than Voyager's Doctor. Add to this the simple fact that at this point in her career, Crusher is near-legendary, if not in fact Legendary, while Voyager's Doctor is one step above generic helmsman. Heck, I'll even take Tom Paris as a medical technician over Voyager's original flesh and blood doctor any day.

We need to look into that legendary thing a bit - Its year 8 of Enterprise-D's life, most of her bridge crew is indeed near legendary, if not in fact Legendary. This would put the Enterprise-D's crew at a slight advantage to that of Voyager, at least in the positions of First Officer, Chief Engineer, Operations Officer, and Tactical/Security Officer. The first three of those are definately filled by generic officers on Voyager - so generic in fact that they are not mentioned again in her entire 7 year TV series. The Tactical/Security Officer position may be filled by Tuvok - I did not find a stardate for his transfer to the Val Jean, so we can assume that the entire "battle" would be based in part on the skills of Tuvok and Worf (at tactical). So, except for the captain and tactical officer, Enterprise-Ds crew would be the superior crew, hands down.

As to the Tactical Officers, Tuvok and Worf, we have an issue. Tuvok actually has the edge in experience here, however, Worf has the free-thinking-ness and outside-the-box abilities. Tuvok is cold, logical and precise. Worf is warrior-spirit driven, intuitive and precise. This might actually be the only close call between the two ships and crews. However, i'm going to lean towards Worf on this one, with Tuvok being only a point or two behind.

Now to the captains. Picard is Legendary (there is, after all, the Picard Maneuver - there is no Janeway Maneuver). Janeway is not - yet. Picard has seen combat on countless occasions with this ship and its crew and knows what it can and can't do. Janeway only knows a handful of her crew and Voyager is largely untested. Janeway does have an ace in her pocket though - she should know at least as much as Picard when it comes to Intrepid class star ships - a slight advantage, but an advantage none-the-less. All the comparisons here won't matter though - Picard vs. Janeway in 2371? Game, set, match to Picard (Jump to 2379 or so when its Captain Picard and Admiral Janeway - there's a reason she's an Admiral and he's a Captain... Its where they belong, where they can do what they are best at (Reference here is Kirk's demotion at the end of ST:IV and Kirk's "Don't let them promote you" speech in Generations)

If the comparison of crew to crew were to occur in some kind of parallel universe (such as the first encounter WAY at the top of this post) and would be something akin to 7 years later but not quite yet home Voyager vs. 2371 Enterprise-D, my choices would be:
 
Picard vs. Janeway - Picard
Riker vs. Chakotay - Chakotay
Data vs. Kim - Data
Worf vs. Tuvok - Tuvok (again, one of those close ones, Worf behind by only a little bit)
Crusher vs. EMH - Crusher
Troi vs. EMH - Troi should not be considered as Voyager really does not have a dedicated counselor (arguably, the EMH could perform that function; however, he is not dedicated to that role). Its not a fair comparison.
LaForge vs. Torres - LaForge
generic helmsman vs. Paris - Paris (unless its Paris vs. that one hot blonde helmswoman on the E-D... :smitten:)
Guinan vs. Neelix - Guinan. Neelix (to me, anyway) is to Star Trek as Jar Jar is to Star Wars and Lt. Keffer is to Babylon 5 - a character that didn't need to even exist. Guinan, however, is a bartender. Ten-forward is a bar. Bars need bartenders. 'Nuff said.
generic science officer vs. Seven of Nine - Seven

Ok, so lets look at the ships now, since I think I more or less covered the crew (where Enterprise-D's crew wins, more or less, hands down when compared to Voyager's crew; both in 2371).

Quote from: From Memory Alpha
Like many Federation starships of its time, Voyager was armed with phasers and photon torpedoes and protected by a deflector shield system. The vessels torpedo launchers were compatable with quantum torpedoes as well, with some modification. Additionally, Voyager carried spatial charges and tricobalt devices, the latter of which were not normally carried on Starfleet vessels at the time. (VOY: "Caretaker", "Dreadnought", "Relativity", "The Voyager Conspiracy")
Quote from: From Memory Alpha
The armaments of the Enterprise-D included twelve phaser arrays, two torpedo launchers, a supply of 250 photon torpedoes and hundreds of antimatter mines. The ship was protected by a high-capacity shield grid that could operate on multiple frequencies. When the ship was destroyed in 2371, the shield frequency was of 257.4 MHz. (TNG: "Conundrum", "Chain of Command, Part II", Star Trek Generations)
 
Although "Conundrum" establishes that the Enterprise had ten phaser banks, a visual inspection of the filming model clearly shows twelve arrays. The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual also supports this higher figure. In addition, visual effects in "Darmok" and "The Best of Both Worlds" have depicted phaser fire coming from the forward torpedo launcher and the nacelle pylons.

In extreme cases, the saucer could separate and serve tactically as a second attack vessel utilizing the large phaser arrays located on its hull. The engineering section also had phaser banks but more often utilized its fore and aft torpedo tubes as its main weapon system. (TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II") This tactical method of attack utilizing ship separation was further developed for the Prometheus-class starships. (VOY: "Message in a Bottle")

Neither of those really help us here as Voyager's exact load out isn't mentioned. Neither is Enterprise-D's third torpedo launcher. So we have to look to other known "facts" about the two ships.

Based on her encounters with the Hathaway and birds-of-prey (not just in Generations, mind you), the Enterprise-D seems to have issues with smaller and faster ships (which just happens to be Voyager's ONLY real advantage (read below)) against Enterprise). Enterprise can handle them, just has issues. We have to assume that the torpedoes and phasers are of the same type as those on Voyager, or very very close to the same (e.g. one generation behind, type 6 mod As instead of type 7s, etc.). Enterprise's main advantage is her sweeping arcs with the phasers and her massive hull - she can't turn and hit the target, but does not need to; and as long as LaForge can keep the starboard power coupling and the phase inducers on line, the "whale" can take a beating. Enterprise's superior crew is going to be a huge factor.

Voyager, on the other hand, has speed and size on her side. It doesn't really happen until she's in the Delta Quadrant, but she routinly encounters and wins versus larger and slower vessels. Voyager suffers against smaller and faster vessels, just as Enterprise does, but that would not be an issue here, even if the Enterprise separated the saucer. Voyager will have issues against Enterprise's weapons when they connect, and Enterprise does hold the advantage in torpedoes - Enterprise carries 250 and can launch at least 10 from her fore and aft launchers at a time while Voyager is limited to around 40 and single launches per launcher; Voyager does, however, have 2 each fore and aft. Voyager's crew's inexperience will be a key factor (Voyager of 2378 just before "End Game" would actually have the superior stance vs. Enterprise-D of 2371, in crew, weapons and ability, but I digest) as obvious avenues of exploitation may not be taken due to that lack of experience.

The "battle" would go to Enterprise, but that does not mean its an easy win. To reduce the advantage Voyager's size gives her, Enterprise would most likely either focus fire on Voyager's engines or separate the saucer, or both. Voyager being a harder target to hit already, wouldn't take much focused damage except from lucky hits. 2378 Voyager would take advantage of the separate sections by destroying the impulse engines of the saucer (using most if not all of her torpedoes to do so) and drawing the star drive section out of weapons range of the saucer, effectively reducing Enterprise's weapons capacity. In 2371 however, Voyager would most likely focus fire on Enterprise's weapons arrays first, a rookie mistake.

In any event, the 2371 battle would end when Voyager got close enough to be caught and anchored in Enterprise's tractor and exposed to a couple of volleys of 10+ torpedoes. It will just take a little while for the two ships to get close enough. Don't get me wrong here, Enterprise would be severly damaged, but would be salvagable; while Voyager would be lost. Her size and speed were not exploited due to her crew's inexperience.

For the sake of arguement, the 2378 Voyager vs the 2371 Enterprise-D would fair much better, and in fact would not be caught and anchored to death. She would, however, suffer extreme damage and would probably be just as bad off as Enterprise, this battle would end in a stalemate; with a weapon- and shield-less Voyager running circles (on thrusters) around a weapon-, shield- and engine-less Enterprise section or two. The final salvo would be tricobalt device vs 10+ torpedoes with a simultaneous detonation, leaving both ships in this condition.

------

Now, someone somewhere in this posting mentioned Kirk. Kirk and the original Enterprise cannot even be compared to Janeway and Voyager. Why? Kirk >>> Janeway.

---Kirk would have destroyed the array AND got his crew home. So we have to pretend that he didn't.

---Kirk would, just for fun, return to the Delta Quadrant at warp 15 and eliminate the Kazon as a threat to the region. Then return home. Again, though, we have to assume he took a similar course as Janeway.

---Kirk would have integrated the Maquis into his crew, just as Janeway did. The difference here would be that even though Seska would still think it was Chakotay's baby, it would, in fact, be Kirk's (not Sulla's or Chakotay's). He wouldn't ever know, however, as he would have destroyed the Kazon ship she transported to (when she was revealed as the bad girl she was) just after she got there.

---Kirk would have stayed at least another day with Amelia Earheart on the planet with the 37s... For research...

---Kirk, Bones, Scotty and Spock would somehow jurry-rig a shuttle craft's dilithium crystals to fuse the space time continuum to cure the Phage.

---Kirk's Captain's Assistant would be Naomi Kirk, not Naomi Wildman. Ensign Wildman would have some explaining to do when she got home to her husband...

---Kirk would have destroyed the Borg by seducing the Borg Queen and infecting her with an STD from an extinct species (its harmless to humans, but instantly fatal to Borg. One of the 37s might have given it to him...) and still saved Seven of Nine... For research... Note that this may be why the Borg were never mentioned in TOS. Come to think of it, Kirk might have ended the Dominion War in a similar fashion ("Bones will give you the cure if you surrender, Female Changeling..."). And species 8472 for that matter - it would have had to wait until he found their earth-like biosphere, however...

---Because Kirk does value life, he would have ordered his red-shirt wearing crew to don blue or gold uniforms for the duration of the journey home, thus not losing a single crewmember.

---Kirk's "Year of Hell" would have lasted about an hour, he and his crew would have found the Krenim Time ship thingie and dealt with it, without destroying it, but still restoring the timeline

---Kirk would have had twice the temporal infractions as Janeway, but would not have had an angry 29th century time traveling Captain try to destroy the Enterprise over it.

---Kirk would have taken one for the galaxy and the Q baby would have been his. It may or may not have been with the female Q, however.

---Kirk would have hunted the Hirogen.

---Kirk would have bluffed his way through the Devore conduits and never woke the Vaadwuar up.

---Frendhip I was blamed for the destruction of the Uxali, by the Uxali. Kirk and crew would have slingshotted back in time to just before the probe reached the planet and recovered it.

Think that that is all I have.
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Offline Strat

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2012, 01:03:17 am »
You pic of the Wookie and the Princess reveals the feeling I had after finishing that extremely thorough post.

 :D

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2012, 01:09:33 am »
For the sake of crew vs. crew, we'd have generic helmsman vs. generic helmsman (stalemate),

Actually, Voyager's helmsman before Paris was named.  Not that we know much about her other than the fact that she was a Betazoid, and wasn't impressed by Paris' bad pickup lines.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2012, 06:47:02 am »
 Guinan ,might have ben a bartender, at the time. But if you will remember, Q was afraid of her.
And warned Picard that "You don't know what a dangerous creature you have here".

 So there was a heck of allot they didn't get into in the show. In her regards.

Offline Vipre

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2012, 01:59:50 pm »
[Insert awesome but long quote here]

That post alone was worth bringing the thread back from death.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2012, 03:17:55 pm »
Guinan ,might have ben a bartender, at the time. But if you will remember, Q was afraid of her.
And warned Picard that "You don't know what a dangerous creature you have here".

 So there was a heck of allot they didn't get into in the show. In her regards.

It is one of the things that bring the Borgs "power" into question.  Q fears (or at least is cautious of) Guinan and her people.  Guinans people were scattered by the Borg and still fear them.  The Q "don't annoy the Borg".  The Feds can't touch the Q but keeps defeating the Borg?  Only seems likely if the Borg want to be defeated due to other motivations. 
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2012, 08:54:34 pm »
You're right on that point Nem.  I'm pretty sure the Borg keep wanting to be defeated.  Otherwise they'd send more than one cube!  Send three... Five...  There is no such thing as Overkill, unless you need the resources spent elsewhere.
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Offline FCM_SFHQ_XC

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2012, 12:42:52 pm »
You're right on that point Nem.  I'm pretty sure the Borg keep wanting to be defeated.  Otherwise they'd send more than one cube!  Send three... Five...  There is no such thing as Overkill, unless you need the resources spent elsewhere.
The borg still have resource limits as much as they are strong.. and since they're enemies with everyone then really they'd need to setup a beachhead with an ample supply of organics to assimiliate with shipbuilding infrastructre to start making assimilated ships to expand beyond the beachhead, so they probably can only commit one or 2 cubes at most to the journey without hurting their military presense on the edges of borg space... of course this only works if they actually get there intact lol
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2012, 02:08:26 pm »
Also keep in mind that the defeat of the borg in the Best of Both Worlds was a fluke.  It was a completely unlikely scenario that the writers made happen.  First contact, the cube probably would have still been beaten, if the Enterprise hadn't shown up, although the casualties would have been much more severe.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2012, 02:49:10 pm »
The whole Borg assimilate the entire species and destroy the civilization system is self defeating.  The Borg don't seem to create so to "improve" they need to assimilate humanoids.  Which is more effective over the long term the assimilate all system or assimilate a major city (say New York) with all its people and tech and move on to return when they have progressed and do it again and again? 
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2012, 04:31:39 pm »
except the borg view themselves as providing a service to the races they assimilate by bringing them closer to perfection.

Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2012, 10:55:01 pm »
Mention one bartender and look where this necrotic thread goes...

Guinan ,might have ben a bartender, at the time. But if you will remember, Q was afraid of her.
And warned Picard that "You don't know what a dangerous creature you have here".

 So there was a heck of allot they didn't get into in the show. In her regards.


It is one of the things that bring the Borgs "power" into question.  Q fears (or at least is cautious of) Guinan and her people.  Guinans people were scattered by the Borg and still fear them.  The Q "don't annoy the Borg".  The Feds can't touch the Q but keeps defeating the Borg?  Only seems likely if the Borg want to be defeated due to other motivations. 


But you do have a point. Why would a being that can teleport itself in time to see the Big Bang and survive it be affraid of the Borg and an El Aurian? It might be up there with "Why are elephants afraid of mice?" both in metaphor and in fact. Then again, it might not. You can skip the mess of words below and just jump to the conclusion at "----", below, if you like; but then you'll miss the good stuff.


^^optional video - its quite telling, though^^

Quote from: Q to Picard in Ten Forward, Q Who
You judge yourselves against the pitiful adversaries you've encountered so far: the Romulans, the Klingons. They're nothing compared to what's waiting.


Quote from: Q commenting during a senior staff briefing, Q Who
The Borg are the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth, or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume.


Quote from: Q to Picard, Q Who
You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them, the essence of what they are remains... they regenerate and keep coming. Eventually, you'll weaken. Your reserves will be gone. They are relentless.


Here, Q is telling us of how horrible the Borg are. Indeed, at this first encounter they are... horrible. Even in TNG:"Best of Both Worlds" the Borg are the most horrible thing to hit the Federation since the Klingons and Romulans in TOS; and they remain that way until the discovery of The Dominion in DS9.

So, then, we know, even at this first encounter, that the Borg are the (current) ultimate bad guy. We even find out that about a century ago Guinan and her people had a bad run in with them:

Quote from: Guinan to Picard, Q Who
My people encountered them a century ago. They destroyed our cities, scattered my people throughout the galaxy. They're called the Borg. Protect yourself, Captain, or they'll destroy you.


OK so the Borg have been everywhere we don't want them to be. Taking people and technology that they deem worthy. We find out much later that they only take what would add to their perfection (they didn't assimilate the Kazon, for example). However, there's still one more piece to the puzzle:

Quote from: Picard, Q and Guinan, Q Who
Q: [referring to Guinan] Picard, if you had half the sense you pretend to have, you would get her off your ship immediately. And if you'd like, I'd be more than pleased to expedite her departure.
 Capt. Picard: [to Guinan] You know him?
Guinan: We have had some dealings.
Q: Those dealings were two centuries ago. This creature is not what she appears to be. She's an Imp, and where she goes, trouble always follows.
 Capt. Picard: You're speaking of yourself, Q, not Guinan


Let's correlate what facts we need to here:
Guinan: "My people encountered them a century ago." - This point is pushed home in Generations when the Enterprise-B rescues, well, Guinan, from a refugee ship about a century before this point (OK, 3/4 of a century).
Q: "Those dealings were two centuries ago."

So, about 200 years before Star Fleet's first true "known" encounter (yeah - I am aware of NX-01's encounter, as well as the events in First Contact that lead to that encounter - for the latter, Star Fleet didn't exist in the past; and for the former, the word "Borg" is never mentioned) Q and Guinan had some dealings. 100ish years later Guinan's people are technologically advanced enough to warrent assimilation, and since technology doesn't grow on trees, we can assume that the El Aurians were a spacefaring species up to the point of their assimilation (another point supplimented by Guinan being in 19th century San Fransisco). So what dealings, then, did Q and Guinan have? My guess is a relationship similar to Q and Picard - tests to see how worthy they are, offers to individuals to join the Q, etc.

All in all, Guinan, and/or some others, told Q to go pound sand, infuriating Q after a century or so of relatively "peaceful" relations. Q then sent the Borg after them, as punishment and (for the Q, anyway) a good laugh.
-OR (the more likely of senarios)-
The El Aurians, being a race of listeners, learned something about the Q that they could use against them - a dirty little secret, if you will. The full extent of the El Aurian's power is never mentioned or explored, but perhaps being in large groups allows them to go toe to toe with the Q, which isn't too far fetched. There isn't anything to say how the Borg and El Aurians met, but however it happened, once the El Aurians were assimilated, the Borg also learned the dirty little secret about the Q; and learned of the Q.

Flash forward to "Q Who" a century later. Q warns Picard that Guinan is evil, and that the Borg are evil. Neither are to be trusted. Both will be his undoing. I will give Q the Borg bit - the Borg are the bad guys of the episode (and the series, off and on). It makes sense that he would test Picard with this enemy, something that the Enterprise-D can handle, if only for a little while. Q isn't, after all, provoking the Borg. The Borg don't even know that he is there.

And that is the key.

Guinan and her people know the anti-Q secret, something that only El Aurians can utilize, and only in sufficient numbers. The Borg know the secret and have the requisite numbers of El Aurians, but have no clue how to find the Q. Both the El Aurians and the Borg are, however, aware of Q-like behaviors (such as random ship teleports into hostile situations).

So the secret is out. Q (which one isn't important) made a mistake of sorts. Q let the only species that presented them some kind of harm get assimilated by a species that is more "bad guy" than the original secret holders. The Borg were probably just a play-thing to the Q about a centruy before "Q Who".

----In summary, Q and Guinan had dealings, ~200 years ago. These dealings lead to some kind of disagreement; and Guinan and her people know something about the Q. ~100 years ago the Borg assimilated Guinan's people and the secret. Therefore, Q (all of them) have a certain "respect" for the two of them.

Star Trek Voyager - 'Don't Provoke The Borg'

^^REQUIRED VIDEO^^

******

Also keep in mind that the defeat of the borg in the Best of Both Worlds was a fluke.  It was a completely unlikely scenario that the writers made happen.  First contact, the cube probably would have still been beaten, if the Enterprise hadn't shown up, although the casualties would have been much more severe.


If the cube destroyed over Earth was the same cube for the entire episode, then how do we have Borg in Voyager (Ex.: VOY:"Unimatrix Zero") that claim to have been assimilated at Wolf 359? Just a thought.


You're right on that point Nem.  I'm pretty sure the Borg keep wanting to be defeated.  Otherwise they'd send more than one cube!  Send three... Five...  There is no such thing as Overkill, unless you need the resources spent elsewhere.

The borg still have resource limits as much as they are strong.. and since they're enemies with everyone then really they'd need to setup a beachhead with an ample supply of organics to assimiliate with shipbuilding infrastructre to start making assimilated ships to expand beyond the beachhead, so they probably can only commit one or 2 cubes at most to the journey without hurting their military presense on the edges of borg space... of course this only works if they actually get there intact lol


If Voyager can poop itself out in the Sol System using a transwarp conduit, so can the Borg (see VOY:"Endgame"). If the first cube had been successful, it would be Star Fleet trying to uproot a superior invading force. This "outpost" is ~30k ly from support, but would only have to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive from the Collective. However, since this cube failed, the Collective has no foothold; and Star Fleet has had time to adapt. One cube would no longer be enough ("First Contact") to take Earth, several (say, 10?) would be required. Due to the needs of the Collective, only one or two can be sent at a time until either the Collective's territory is closer or more ships are available. Size, in this case, matters; the Collective is both too big and too small to expand so far out.

BUT! Somehow, the Borg have assimilated some people at Wolf 359. Some assimilated just before hand (see almost any Voyager episode with Borg - there's like 30 of them, and about 10 have individuals that were assimilated around the time of BoBW). Either way, they got pooped 30-60k ly away to join the rest of the collective. Now, this could just be some kind of transwarp transporter, maybe a sphere tucked away inside the cube got pooped out before the cube reached Earth... I don't know. But what I do know is the Borg have the ability to move personnel 30k+ ly in the blink of an episode. So all the logical reasonings in the world can't fight this simple fact. Therefore, we must conclude with Nem that the Borg are not willing to win. Yet.

Think that that is all I have.
Cheers,
The Czar

P.S. I was wrong: I need to point out something on topic, and an edit of my previous post would be lost, methinks. Voyager and Enterprise (any of them, really) are hero ships. Hero ships generally don't get destroyed. Endgame Voyager could go toe to toe with Broken Bow NX-01 and neither would be destroyed. Damaged, disabled, crippled, crunched, smacked, slammed, smattered, or anything else, sure. Just not destroyed. Its the nature of hero ships. However, we need to discard the "hero" status of the vessels before we see them in "battle" with each other.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2012, 09:17:59 am »
 Good post !! Lord I can't tell you guys how much im enjoying this thread. :)

 And how much I miss, these type of conversations. It reminds me of the "Old days".

Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2012, 12:23:53 pm »
I'm afraid I must invoke the Defiant principle in dealing with Hero ships and their plot armor as well as the Law of Enterprise which both state it is perfectly permissible to destroy a Hero ship so long as the crew escape and a suitable replacement is available that can be renamed for the fallen vessel. See ST III/ST IV, Generations/First Contact, and DS 9 The Changing Face of Evil/Dogs of War.

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2012, 01:29:40 pm »
That does raise a point as in why have the borg not used that conduit end point before, instead following the traditional, send a cube 30-40,000 light years to try to hit Earth.. I could only guess that it's because the borg were leaving that advantage for a 'suprise' one day.. but one can only guess I suppose there. Who knows when that conduit was actually established too
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Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2012, 12:02:57 am »
I think that this could fall under "Hero Worship". Or "Epic Plot Holes". Or "Mohab is an uber-nerd". One of those.

I'm afraid I must invoke the Defiant principle in dealing with Hero ships and their plot armor as well as the Law of Enterprise which both state it is perfectly permissible to destroy a Hero ship so long as the crew escape and a suitable replacement is available that can be renamed for the fallen vessel. See ST III/ST IV, Generations/First Contact, and DS 9 The Changing Face of Evil/Dogs of War.


True. Three ships lost and (relatively) promptly replaced.

Same thing happened with Tasha Yar (replaced by Worf), Spock (replaced by Spock), Jadzia (replaced by Ezri) Dax, Beverly Crusher (replaced by Kate Polaski), Kate Polasaki (replaced by Beverly Crusher), Kes (replaced by Seven of Nine, although slightly backwards from the norm), and Wil Decker (replaced by Jimmy Kirk). There's more but that's just what I can remember off the top of my head.

These heroes, and the hero ships, existed as long as plot dictated. How many torpedoes did Voyager really have? 34. How many did they use? I lost count (I think the writers did, too) last time I tried to count them. At least twice Janeway mentioned "Shuttlebay Two". I'm not denying that there might have been two; I just only ever saw the one. Don't get me started on Voyager's shuttles and the mysterious "extra" warp core on the MSD. Its just the cool little things that we need to believe.

Quote from: Memory Alpha Intrepid Class Propulsion Systems
The Intrepid-class also featured a secondary warp assembly. (VOY: "Alice")

The secondary warp assembly was never seen as a set on-screen, but was featured in the MSD as a second warp core in the secondary hull of the ship.


Why? Because its a hero ship. Its what they do - they take the requisite plot situation and solve the problem. At the end of the day (or seventh season for Voyager) they come home. Or carry on as if nothing happened (with a few exceptions driven by plot - TNG:"Family" comes to mind). Or whatever else heroes do.

Equinox, Reliant, Oddesey, Yamato, and countless others blew up and we didn't bat an eyelash. Non-heroes. Who cares? The next episode/movie we've moved on. The crew of the affected ship has moved on (or tried to, STIII:"The Search for Spock). The "hero-ness" of the ship is why a single Borg cube can obliterate the fleet at Wolf 359 and only damage the impulse engines of the Enterprise's saucer in the very next battle.

Voyager and Enterprise (any of them, really) are hero ships. Hero ships generally don't get destroyed. Endgame Voyager could go toe to toe with Broken Bow NX-01 and neither would be destroyed. Damaged, disabled, crippled, crunched, smacked, slammed, smattered, or anything else, sure. Just not destroyed. Its the nature of hero ships.


With an approximately 99.59% survival rate (more if you consider DS9 was never destroyed, less if you count that it was captured... twice (once by them, once by us); and I'm not even counting runabouts, shuttlecraft or other auxilliary craft), we clearly see that hero ships generally don't get destroyed.

Now, before I go on, I must emphasize that I am not attacking the "Defiant principle" or "The Law of Enterprise" - I'm just pointing out that I agree, and supporting the point.

It is this "hero-ness" we would have to discard for a true "battle" between any two (or more) hero ships (or individuals, for that matter). The "hero-ness" implies that the inertial dampners go off line at the worst possible moment, or the starboard power coupling fails yet again. Its the one and only thing that would keep either of the ships alive when perhaps it shouldn't be. Its the unfair advantage that keeps a certain ship's fanboys whining when the ship loses and bragging when it wins.

And we can't have any of it if we're to properly assess the capabilities of two combatants. It has to be "equal" whether it is hero vs. hero or hero vs. generic or generic vs. generic.

This does not, however, count the crew. While lightly touched upon here, its another bag of worms for another day.

Cheers,
The Czar
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #82 on: October 04, 2012, 01:20:23 pm »
Then the answer becomes obvious to the question.. in the case of hero vs hero, the answer becomes obvious on who wins..

Borg Cubes transwarp in last second as Voy/Ent are in battle.. both become crippled, we never(nor will ever) find out the answer, and once they repair, they got a Borg invasion to repel now! :D
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2012, 08:08:16 pm »
The Defiant can kick the D rear with it cannons q torps.

Need to check under your bed for a plasma coolant leak...or maybe just carbon monoxide.  ;D The Defiant would be in the same boat it was in vs the Cube in FC, adrift awaiting salvage.
That was a cube and if you recall the Defiant taking the Lakota.It would certianly have an easy time with the Ent-D even separated.

What about

Data-Seven of Nine-?

If Kirk were stuck Delta quadrant he would of had Spock and Scotty to come up with cloaking device.

I do think that most other ships do use Isolinear chips like the Sovy.


Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2012, 12:36:09 am »
Defiant vs. Lakota? Not a fair evaluation of the two ships. One had orders to kill and was trying to do exactly that; the other was only trying to disable and survive. The Defiant principle also applies in this battle. Now, if you said "Defiant class with all the bugs worked out vs. Excelsior class modified to the Lakota's standards, both playing for the kill" we'd have a good show.

In either event, the Defiant class suffers from one HUMONGUS disadvantage: its primary offensive (also has 2x aft torp launchers and one each dorsal and ventral "standard" phaser, iirc) power is focused on only one arc (SFB's FA at best, SFB's mauler at worst, but I feel its somewhere in between the two). A ship like the Lakota has a larger, 360 x 360 weapons arc. That means that no matter where the target is, Lakota can hit it, but the Defiant would have to turn to bring its main weapons into arc.

Now, to the Defiant's credit, this would spread damage across multiple shields, but eventually one or more of those will fail. The Defiant, in turn, should be able to maintain its focus on one or two shields assuming the target wasn't very maneuverable.

Enough about those two. Honestly, I feel it would be a toss up anyway.

The Defiant principle also applies to the Borg cube incident. Honestly, how else was Worf supposed to get on the Enterprise? Just walk onto the bridge like he'd been there the whole time?

Data vs. Seven? They'd run off and "explore their humanity" together. Seven would ask him if she was his first, to which he would innocently compare her to Tasha Yar. They would continue the "exploration" for a little while, but eventually she'd go female praying mantis on him, and she'd be the first Soong-type former Borg drone after she'd integrated some of his components into herself.

Kirk lost on the other side of the galaxy (really, does it matter where?) opens up an entire slough of possibilities that greatly exceed any of those that Janeway might have had. Coming up with a cloaking device is up there with that.

I'm not sure I can agree, however, with the "all isolinear" fleet. The Sovereign and the Intrepid classes were built around the same time and should have equivalent computing and control systems. The rest of the fleet should probably be recieving the "brain bag" upgrades as they come in for overhauls on an as-needed basis. Obviously, not all the ships would get the good stuff, but most eventually would, or at least should, even if its just a partial conversion (such as adding a single "brain bag" for one vital system).

Cheers,
The Czar

P.S. May this thread never die again... This is the good stuff.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2012, 05:27:19 am »
The Enterprise wins because they have Wesley Crusher.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2012, 02:18:06 pm »
The Enterprise loses because Deanna is at the helm.
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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2012, 01:36:05 pm »
The Enterprise loses because Deanna is at the helm.

Unless of course Voyager is the thing she flies into.

Offline TAnimaL

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2013, 12:03:43 pm »
We interrupt this thread that seems to not want to die for a brief personal rant....

WTF, Mythbusters? That whole "elephants afraid of mice" IS a myth. I don't know what was really going on in that test they ran, but I, personally and with my own eyes, have seen elephants ignore mice. I worked at a zoo for 5 years and got to experience a lot of personal interactions. I had no doubt the polar bears wanted to tear me apart, the silverback gorilla  thought I wanted his females, and the closest I came to dying was from the fearless and agressive elephants (from my own stupidity). In a zoo, especially an urban one, mice are omnipresent and could be seen skirting the edges of the elephant enclosure, ignored by the elephants. I stupidly entered their space to meet a keeper and they turned on me without hesitation, and only the quick intervention by the keeper spared my life. I once aseked a elephant keeper about the whole mouse/elephant thing and he claimed to have seen one eat a mouse after stepping on it.

Perhaps in the Mythbusters test it was the novelty of something out of the ordinary the elephant reacted to. Maybe it would have done the same if surprised by a windup toy or a groundhog, but a "natural" fear of mice? FAIL.

(Sorry. I hate stupid "urban myths & legends" with a passion and take it personally when it comes to magnificent creatures like elephants. And I expect better from you, Mythbusters)

End rant

We now return to our long-running thread, still in progress...

Offline TAnimaL

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2013, 12:29:11 pm »
This whole thread (fun reading) reminds me a ST comic book from 98, where Q & Trelane are playing a game and switch Kirk onto the Ent-E and Picard onto 1701. The morale of the story is Kirk can talk/think his way out like Picard, Picard can fight his way out like Kirk, and when Q & Trelane want  the two ships/crews to fight each other, they cooperate.

Oh, and yes, Kirk hits on Troi. :)

The whole thing was worth if for this image alone...

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Re: Voyager vs. Enterprise D
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2013, 07:02:25 pm »
We interrupt this thread that seems to not want to die for a brief personal rant....

 :P You didn't interrupt, you resuscitated. The thread flat-lined four months ago.
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