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Author Topic: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW  (Read 6141 times)

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Fallen_Warrior

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2008, 06:36:25 pm »
true, which is why i'm suggesting we all sit down in a thread and maybe agree as to where these limits are so events like those are avoided... and no offense but you yourself use connies alot (we all know you get permission) but your changes while subtle are your own. So what if someone were to cause fuss about them or any other design that shares a similarity, before someone could say its all cool people get opinionated and it turns into a flamewar.
thats how it always happens here.
Why not have a thread where the people who do all the work get the foundations laid in for some guidelines or something.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2008, 07:02:03 pm »
true, which is why i'm suggesting we all sit down in a thread and maybe agree as to where these limits are so events like those are avoided... and no offense but you yourself use connies alot (we all know you get permission) but your changes while subtle are your own. So what if someone were to cause fuss about them or any other design that shares a similarity, before someone could say its all cool people get opinionated and it turns into a flamewar.
thats how it always happens here.
Why not have a thread where the people who do all the work get the foundations laid in for some guidelines or something.

In my situation, if any one else where to approach me and say I stole their idea, it would be purely coincidental, but it would cause an arguement.  However, the likelihood of that happening is very minimal, especially since I use WZ components for the most part.

However, we don't really need to get together to lay down some ground rules as to what crosses the line and what doesn't.  If you really think about it, such ground rules have been laid down in various modding communities for a long time now, mostly through common sense.  That's how we've always operated.

Unfortunately, there are those that don't have any sense, and will do what they want, when they want with other people's work.  And most times, those people trounce out the old excuse that the original authors did the very same thing by making a copy of a copyrighted piece of material without permission from Paramount. 

However, Paramount has been aware of the various communities and their work for years.  If they wanted, they could have gone the route of the RIAA and sued every single mesher in the world that ever made a canon Trek ship 3D model.  But they haven't.

However, in communities such as ours, if we start laying down the ground rules of what we consider plagarism, and those rules contradict most other communities' rules and common sense on such things, we're not only asking for trouble, we're going out and dragging trouble to us.  Again, that's why various modelling and modding communities have a universal standard if you will, based mainly on common sense, to regulate such situations. 

The problem isn't what constitutes plagarism or not.  The problem is what people do to justify their acts when they're in a gray area.  Again that's happened in this community before, and we all know the outcome of those situations.
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Rod ONeal

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #122 on: May 07, 2008, 04:29:41 am »
Hi guys. I took the orthos that MP posted, installed them as reference pics, and made this model as accurate to them as I could. I couldn't really claim only inspiration.

The blue glows on the saucer are from the reference model. I'm assuming warp reactors?

We, as a community, don't use other individual's designs without their permission. I don't want to go against that. I want us to be able to claim rights to our designs and not have someone point to this model and accuse us of being hypocrites. It's not worth that.

Now, with that said, we (and others) freely use commercial designs. Paramount, ADB, etc... don't have a problem because we don't cost them income. We, IMO, actually promote their IP. That's just my opinion though. If this design is sitting on Gabe's HDD waiting for a bidder to buy the commercial rights and my model might adversely affect that sale, I'd be wrong to release it and chance that happening. I've heard though that it's already been used commercially on the Ships of the Line calender. Is that true? I've never seen the calender myself. If so, then releasing it might be just as acceptable as any other commercial design is. Or possibly I'm requesting permission from the wrong source and need to ask the producers of the calender?

I'd love to release it. I like the idea that there's some of me in your games. It just might take a bit of time.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2008, 05:20:31 am »
I've heard though that it's already been used commercially on the Ships of the Line calender. Is that true?

Yes, stated in a post by Mr. Koerner himself. I don't recall exactly if he said he needed one more drawing for the calender and it was something he had laying around or if it was something he made specifically for the calender. Either way it's in there.

Screeny bottom left



As for the overall topic at the moment my personal opinion, despite wanting to see this released, is one of respect regarding your wanting an OK from the designer before putting it out there. Objectively though I have a hard time with the idea that someone should be restricted from looking at an image/photo/item on the roadside and creating a likeness of it, especially when no profit is being made on that likeness. Needless to say I'm evenly split on the issue.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2008, 06:16:08 am »
  My comments are in general of course, over all this comunity has done an awesome job of getting out mods and keeping it civil.

Oh and Ron, the ship is looking awesome.  Keep it up.  Have always enjoyed seeing the work put out by the people on here.  if I like them or not, I am usually awed by the work done.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #125 on: May 08, 2008, 01:51:30 am »
It's in the calendar? huh... Anyone know of any other way to get a hold of gabe then? Anything I can do Rod to help bring about the means neccesary for the release. Its just seems a shame, You recreated the model beautifully and I've been dying to get my grubby little hands on it. Modellers like you and Asylum just create some of the most beautiful pieces, the hours I've spent just admiring the detail on the Garigan. I apologize if I'm come off as the begger here, I mean no disrespect to anyone.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #126 on: May 08, 2008, 05:10:45 am »
Gabe hangs out over at Sci-fi meshes.com and is also on myspace.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #127 on: May 08, 2008, 05:11:47 am »
It's in the calendar? huh... Anyone know of any other way to get a hold of gabe then? Anything I can do Rod to help bring about the means neccesary for the release. Its just seems a shame, You recreated the model beautifully and I've been dying to get my grubby little hands on it. Modellers like you and Asylum just create some of the most beautiful pieces, the hours I've spent just admiring the detail on the Garigan. I apologize if I'm come off as the begger here, I mean no disrespect to anyone.

Trust me, no one here is going to feel disrespected by that post.  I'm pretty sure of that.  You're not the only one that would like to get this particular model.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #128 on: May 08, 2008, 06:45:58 am »
Indeed, i think we would all give up parts of our anatomy to get this
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2008, 12:08:37 pm »
don't suppose you have the URL for his myspace?
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Fallen_Warrior

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2008, 02:35:33 pm »
hmm i did have at one point. I found it through his Sci-Fi meshes profile... Hold on a sec..... nope its not there anymore.
So i guess Sci-Fi meshes is your best bet. This is the link to his profile page:
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/members/gckoerner.html
(you will have to be registered to the site to be able to pester him)
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Rod ONeal

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2008, 03:55:33 pm »
I've tried e-mailing him and PMing him at trekbbs forums. I've just sent him a PM at scifi-meshes as well. I also tried the publishers of the 2007 SotL calender. The person who fielded the request there doesn't seem to get it. I can't get through to her that I don't want to post images from their calender lol. I don't believe that they have any rights to the IP anyway. It appears they only have rights to use the particular image.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2008, 06:34:12 pm »
I'm curious, is gabe still active anywhere cause i saw you left him that note on sci-fi meshes and as of yet i've seen nothing. is he just not on or ignoring?
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2008, 07:40:24 pm »
I don't know? There is a point that it's considered legally that a reasonable effort has been made to contact the IP owner. At that point you can use the IP for nonprofit reasons and it's OK. If the IP owner appears afterwards they can tell you to remove it and you have to comply (obviously), but with no further liabilities for using the IP. You can't be sued, for instance.

This could very well be what Gabe is doing by not responding. Without a response it's OK for me to post it, but he can at any time respond and tell me to remove it. If I had his permission he might loose some rights. I'm not a lawyer, but this is how the copyright laws read to me.

With that said, I'm not just concerned with the legal issues. I'm also concerned with ethically using something without permission.

I've tried 2 e-mails to him. I'll try 1 more and see if I can get a response.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #134 on: May 13, 2008, 03:23:52 am »
That or the guy is truly busy and cant get to you. If no one responds here we don't release it.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2008, 03:31:55 pm »
I dunno, I feel why your saying that Fallen Warrior but I think Rod's right, after a period of time and repeated attempts to contact the owner, you got something. I mean it doesn't take much effort to reply back a fat no or yes. it seems to me gabe might just not be online at all at this point. Since Rod would remove the source immediately if gabe ever did tell him to stop it, it seems completely legit to me. I've never read the copyright laws but I'm under the impression that no legal action can be taken against you for something that is non-profit. It's not like gabe is trying to sell his idea, not that he'd have the legal right to either. When it comes down to it, it's really just about respect. I think Rod worked hard and has more than tried to get the gabe's attention. It seems more than fair to me. Before anyone says it, my opinion has nothing to do with my desire to get this model. That's my honest opinion. In just about anything that goes around in the world, when you drop out of the game and stop playing for a long time, the world can't stop and wait around, gotta go on without you. It's like that with relationships, with jobs, with anything, including copyright law. If you stop claiming your copyright, there is an expiration date for claims. No disrespect intended towards gabe or anyone.
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Rod ONeal

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2008, 12:07:40 am »
Copyright length for art is life+70yrs. I was just stating the law as I understand it, not my intentions.

I am concerned that my releasing my version of his design might devalue it commercially somehow.

Gabe actually was online at scifi-meshes 1hr before I messaged him. Just missed him. ::)
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #137 on: May 14, 2008, 04:16:46 am »
No offense, but theres no chance Rod should release without consent... None of us would be willing to release models if we couldn't get a reply to someone we knew was still active... Inactive..Well thats when we include a note....
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F9thCenturus

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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2008, 04:49:56 am »
Copyright length for art is life+70yrs. I was just stating the law as I understand it, not my intentions.

I am concerned that my releasing my version of his design might devalue it commercially somehow.

Gabe actually was online at scifi-meshes 1hr before I messaged him. Just missed him. ::)

Question is, has he been online since?
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #139 on: May 15, 2008, 01:05:41 am »
No, he hasn't. He is still active, though. He's just not an everyday visitor.
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Re: OT: You have to see this !!! WOW
« Reply #140 on: May 15, 2008, 03:41:15 am »
Understandable.
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