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#### Don Karnage

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##### Star Trek ships
« on: August 28, 2015, 06:46:30 am »
In TNG seasons 4 episode 17 the encounter a Miranda class. But inside the bridge is different from ST2. I was wondering if the ship was refit with TNG tech? Also the crew is only 37?

It seem so little unless it was transform into a science ship full of equipment a bit like the Soyuz? But I don't know, it seem weird that they refit the inside the control with TNG tech only?

Also the episode 16 with the space baby, Data says that they have never encounter anything like that, but in the episode  "Thin Man" they did encounter a space alien, it was kinda like a sentient organic ship. So the space baby even if its not a ship, they did encounter a space creature.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2015, 07:18:34 am »
They encountered several Miranda style ships in the series. They blew up the Lantree in season 2, it was being used as a supply ship, the Bozeman from the time loop episode and the Brattain from the Night Terrors episode. I'm probably missing one or two. It was a versatile hull that saw active service for well over a century and probably after that as auxiliary vessels. I'm sure they upgraded the systems occasionally and you only need essential crew on a ship that will be pretty much near a base all of the time or on a particular mission to study something. On a ship that may see a base only once every few months and has many functions, more redundant crew positions are needed, not to mention all of the departments and their crew.

As far as the space baby; they encountered two space-faring creatures in the pilot episode, so it was old news even when Tin Man showed up. They do that a lot.

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 07:34:39 am by Corbomite »

#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2015, 07:34:30 am »
If that ship in episode 17 is use for basic stuff, why fit it with TNG panel, control ? The bridge seem smaller that the Reliant and Bozman. Sure both ship are from TMP eras, but unless the refit a old ship with new tech why stop with the bridge? Well I don't know if anything else inside was change, but the outside still got old warp engine, and weapons like the torpedo pod.

Why use a old ship for what ever it was use for when you have better one?

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2015, 07:38:10 am »
Why use a old ship for what ever it was use for when you have better one?

They have better things to use the better ones for... like starship duty. Reconfiguring a ship's floor plan is nothing, especially when you have replicator tech. Look what they did to the Enterprise for its refit. The hallways were half the size, and a different shape.

#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 08:51:56 am »
Yea a old subway, if it still working, why change it? Well maybe because its OLD and because there are more peoples using it. In Montreal we still use a 49 ish years old trains/wagons. The more recent one are from 76 or 77 for the Olympic. The new one is in trial and will be available for the public in late December early January 2016. I know that Toronto have a similar one as New York and its old. And the have the new one that will be similar to the new one we will have. They told us to be "ready" for "problem" because its new. Well that mean you have not work the bug out of it.

But TNG is so 90's The sound, music , haircut, clothing of the civilian (doctor brown).

I know that they still use a few Excelsior class and maybe a few of enterprise C class (don't remember the name of it) see only the back of one once.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 08:53:32 am »
You update the control systems because the staff was trained for the current generation equipment not antiques.
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#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 10:24:58 am »
Actually, the reason CaptAdam uses is the "only" answer, and not bullsh*t at all - it's a TV show with a limited budget. Reuse the models, the sets, the costumes, the props - sometimes you dress them up to manke 'em newer, and sometimes the set or prop in question got beat up in storage so it has to be redone. Hell's bells, the movie 1701 had 4 different bridges, and the time difference between the one in STIV and STV is what, maybe 3 months, tops? The movies, even the JJ ones that had truckloads of , had to save money where they can.

It's totally fun to try to rationalize these details in a believable way, but, you have to always refer to that fact above.

There plenty of real world examples of "older frames with newer guts." I'm sure there's plenty of decent examples in the military. My own anecdote  - I have a '75 postal jeep that has a rebuilt trans from a 90's car, and new seats from a 2008 minivan. I bet i could even put some nice LCD displays in it to make it look "modern," but it's still a 40 year old car. Ooo, maybe I could put in a HUD! hee.

For the record Adam, the oldest trains in the NYC subway system are from 1964, and about 1/6 of the fleet was made between 1964-1978, and maybe 3/4 (or more) are from 1999 on. Here in Philly, one subway line's cars was replaced in the 80s, and the other '97-99. Trains aren't cheap to make (and there has been a sad trend in the last 35 years in this country to spend less on infrastructre in favor of corporate tax breaks), so they're expected to last 25 years or more. I'm not a huge train buff but I do like subways, both riding them and using them in model train setups.

#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 02:45:13 pm »
I would like to play with my model trains, but I don't have the space for that

beside the seem to need a engineer, one wont work, the other one seen to have problem.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 07:57:01 pm »
Actually, the reason CaptAdam uses is the "only" answer, and not bullsh*t at all - it's a TV show with a limited budget.

Of course it is the real reason but an in story justification is nice for the "suspension of disbelief".
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 08:06:00 pm »
I don't know about you guys but I'm glad they do still use the TMP generation ships. Nothing like them. Beautiful.
Remember, if I were an Admiral the Excelsior would be my Space Control Ship.

Though I might get crucified for saying this I preferred the Voyager to the D.  The D is just too big and overwhelming in power.  Voyager was also closer to an SFB design I made when a friend asked how I'd design a ship for a new series (pre TNG).  I never would have made a design as large as the D.
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#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 08:16:39 pm »
I never like the D, the saucer should have been round, the war engine should be equal shape, not "Skinner" at the tips, the ship look like it was crush, compress.

The Phoenix class also, its a Miranda class TNG version and a bad design.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 08:39:53 pm »
The Intrepid "Voyager" was faster that the big D, since it could go to warp 9.975. The big D was having trouble past warp 9.

It suppose to go far with out refueling but never got far because it have to return to a star base each time the hit a bump. Voyager manage on its own during 7 years and made more first contact that the big D did in the same time.

#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 09:50:05 pm »
The big D idea of having the family for long exploring might be a good idea, but its kinda in the way. The bridge was too big for nothing, its a was of place.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2015, 12:05:35 am »
I think the Ent E is the best looking of the bunch actually, but my favorite Starfleet design has to be the Prometheus. It's its own friggin' flotilla!

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 12:58:13 am »
If that ship in episode 17 is use for basic stuff, why fit it with TNG panel, control ? The bridge seem smaller that the Reliant and Bozman. Sure both ship are from TMP eras, but unless the refit a old ship with new tech why stop with the bridge? Well I don't know if anything else inside was change, but the outside still got old warp engine, and weapons like the torpedo pod.

Well, the tech manuals indicate that federation bridge are modular and can easily be swapped out.  The fact that they placed them in such a vulnerable position where everyone can take potshots at them indicates that there has to be some sort of benefit to justify that huge tradeoff.  Likewise, all of the major components which might negate keeping the ship in service such as the power plant and computers have also been shown to be modular.  Further, once the feds adapted touch screen control panels by the early 24th century, they no longer needed to rebuild the controls every time they made a major change.  They could just reprogram the display.  In addition, thanks to the transporters, components which would otherwise not be replaceable to to their location could just be beamed out.  Also, we don't know when they stopped building Miranda and Excelsior class starships.  Based on when the Ambassador class Enterprise C was in service, as well as the production run of the preceding Constitution class which stretched over 40 years I'd estimate the Excelsior building run to have gone to at sometime between the 2220s, and 2240s.  Likewise, Miranda class starships could theoretically have remained in production for longer periods of time due to the fact that they were not intended to fulfill missions that required the same amount of muscle as a Constitution or Excelsior class.

#### Javora

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 08:54:43 am »
It was a huge ship. Big bridge fit the idea. Most stations were science stations.
Why have a huge ship and a small bridge

Plus it allowed a central location to shoot action scenes where most of the main characters would logically be...

#### FPF-DieHard

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2015, 04:36:32 pm »

Additionally, the Galaxy Class Enterprise was also the main Space Control Ship for a various number of sectors it had visited during conflict times. When Capt. Jellico took over he converted the ships bridge science stations for a various number of tactical operational needs. That being said it was a SCS. And toward the end of its life they even added two more station port/starboard of the bridge.

I myself believe had the ship been designed during wartime it probably would have fighters aboard. They do have the room and facilities for such a refit. That extra bridge space can make it into an effect SCS/CV.

Only thing that pisses me off was the writes always taking down the starboard power couplings. Makes it almost sound as if the ship had an inherent flow with power management. Hopefully fixed with the new next generation Galaxy Classes.

With all that space in the saucer section, converting Galaxies the SCS makes total sense.
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#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2015, 05:18:53 pm »
One thing I never like of the Galaxy class, when the encounter the Bozman and it hit the warp nacelle, it cause a warp breach and cause the ship destruction. And it was unable to eject the warp core (don't know if it could be ejected tough). In DS9 when the jemadar slam a ship on the side of the deflector ship it cause the ship to explode.

When I look at the Old enterprise (ST2) when Khan shoot at point blank at the Enterprise the intermix chamber 9warp core) the ship did not exploded, when the Enterprise shoot at the Reliant and destroyed the warp engine, the ship did not exploded.  So that kinda show that the Galaxy class was kinda fragile, week to any impact on it.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2015, 05:41:26 pm »
Sure, but still its kinda hard to understand why the ship appear week. Well the warp core seem to be a bad idea compare to the intermix chamber that the 1701 got.

If its so unstable, the should fix it before fitting ship with it. Also the Equinox did get a warp engine damage and its warp core did not go critical, nor voyager after all the hit it got during the 7 years in the Delta quadrant.

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 09:20:49 am »
Agree 100% with Adam that it's hard to create facts from the stories...

I highly recommend reading "Redshirts" by John Scalzi; a crew on a starship notice odd things happening and it seems they sometimes become a TV show. Sorta the inverse of "Galaxy Quest" but a bit more serious,  done with a caring hand and not mocking. Very appropriate for this topic

http://www.amazon.com/Redshirts-A-Novel-Three-Codas/dp/1491514388

#### Don Karnage

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 09:36:38 am »
Or a well place torpedo that hit the ammunition room.

#### Lieutenant_Q

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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 01:48:02 pm »
Yes, an episode of Voyager... the one where Seven is the only one awake on the ship.  Her hallucination states as one of the problems she has to overcome is that one of the Photon Torpedoes just armed itself in the bay.  She had only a couple of minutes before it detonated, destroying the bay and the surrounding sections.

I've thought about the different ways the Photon Torpedoes could be stored, and I can't really come up with one I completely like.

1) The Torpedoes are stored inert, with everything but the anti-matter already in the warhead.  Certainly the safest way to transport them, but having to fuel them prior to launch makes me wonder if Federation ships would want to have anti-matter transfer lines running from the storage bays to the launchers.  The storage bays are supposed to be deep in the ship, but then you have the lines running to the bays, and you've just made the ship much more vulnerable.  Also, any breach to this line that doesn't take out half your ship, takes your torpedo launcher out of commission.

2) The Torpedoes have the anti-matter already in the warhead and separated from the matter in the payload by a non-reactive divider that is removed from the warhead prior to launch, when the divider is removed a force field is erected to replace it.  When the force field fails, the torpedo detonates.  You can set the force field to detonate on impact, or in proximity to the target.  The issue with this is that a hit to the torpedo bay could destroy the bay, and the ship, if even one torpedo's divider is breached.

The Galaxy, its Warp Core exploded because it overheated.  Geordi was supposed to report to the Bridge about something being wrong with the Core, presumably the ejector assembly, right before the panel blew up and started spewing coolant all over Engineering.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 02:15:26 pm »
Yes, an episode of Voyager... the one where Seven is the only one awake on the ship.  Her hallucination states as one of the problems she has to overcome is that one of the Photon Torpedoes just armed itself in the bay.  She had only a couple of minutes before it detonated, destroying the bay and the surrounding sections.

I've thought about the different ways the Photon Torpedoes could be stored, and I can't really come up with one I completely like.

1) The Torpedoes are stored inert, with everything but the anti-matter already in the warhead.  Certainly the safest way to transport them, but having to fuel them prior to launch makes me wonder if Federation ships would want to have anti-matter transfer lines running from the storage bays to the launchers.  The storage bays are supposed to be deep in the ship, but then you have the lines running to the bays, and you've just made the ship much more vulnerable.  Also, any breach to this line that doesn't take out half your ship, takes your torpedo launcher out of commission.

2) The Torpedoes have the anti-matter already in the warhead and separated from the matter in the payload by a non-reactive divider that is removed from the warhead prior to launch, when the divider is removed a force field is erected to replace it.  When the force field fails, the torpedo detonates.  You can set the force field to detonate on impact, or in proximity to the target.  The issue with this is that a hit to the torpedo bay could destroy the bay, and the ship, if even one torpedo's divider is breached.

The Galaxy, its Warp Core exploded because it overheated.  Geordi was supposed to report to the Bridge about something being wrong with the Core, presumably the ejector assembly, right before the panel blew up and started spewing coolant all over Engineering.

What episode of Voyager is that? The only one I can think of is when the crew suffer from hallucination because of a space creature.

As for the matter antimatter casing, I don't know how it is. Does the torpedo have both ready ? Or does the ship have then apart somewhere?   Both way would be dangerous, if its antimatter and there a leak, it would explode in contact with matter if the force field collapse.

I don't know if they ever explain how the torpedo work? Like a MK IV is better that a MK III? That mean the the MK IV would have more matter antimatter ? What about the Quantum torpedo? What are they?

If all the torpedo have matter antimatter ready, they are dangerous, if the only have matter, then the antimatter would have to be somewhere and still that would be dangerous.

How do they "add" the antimatter into a torpedo?

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 02:56:07 pm »
What episode of Voyager is that?

It's called The Void.

Photons have several levels of blast ability (at least six by TNG: Redemption pt2) so there must be some kind of mechanism to quickly adjust the blast amount in the loading bay. I would assume they have a matter/antimatter supply handy in or near the bay (that might have its own ejection mechanism if needed) that loads the charge at the point before launch.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2015, 03:05:00 pm »
In TNG season 5 episode 7 we can see at 28:30 2 Miranda class, a space station? and what seem to be the saucer of a ship. Does anyone know if its a saucer or a full ship? And at 25:50 you can see a Klingon ship, it look a bit like a D7, so what's a Klingon ship doing at a Federation junk yard?

#### Lieutenant_Q

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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 03:09:39 pm »
Episode 93, Season 4 Episode 25. "One"

Torpedoes cannot be replicated, whether that is by design or just by difficulty was never determined.  So they would have to be intact somewhere on the ship (i maintain that it's by design so that no one person with a replicator and access to antimatter could just replicate 40 thousand Photon Torpedoes and single handedly become a menace to the entire Alpha Quadrant, if specs to replicate them don't exist anywhere, then the specs can't be stolen)  Since Antimatter is not pure antimatter in the way most people think of it, its probably not even Anti-hydrogen like scientists today think of, it won't just react if it gets out of its storage container.  The original specs behind the Photon Torpedo state that it is armed with packets of Matter and Antimatter separated by Magneto-Photonic Forcefields that are thrusted together violently on impact.  Beyond that and some vague references as to their yield, some canon, some not, there is no reference to how they work, nor is there any more than the zero point energy that Picard states in SFC 3 as to what the Quantum Torpedoes are.

Antimatter reacts with its matter counterpart, and nothing else, so it's not as dangerous as the name suggests.  Anti-hydrogen, for example, only reacts with hydrogen.  If you released anti-hydrogen in a room filled completely with helium, nothing would happen.  So transporting Antimatter, is as simple as creating a tube or tank out of whatever the antimatter is NOT.  If you did Anti-Carbon, then you'd make a tube completely out of Silicon.  Its a little more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.  The problem becomes if one of those specially designed tanks or tube breaches, you suddenly have anti-whatever floating freely inside a ship where the components were not so carefully screened.  If were to be breached in the torpedo bay, well, there's giant chunks of the whatever sitting waiting to be reacted with.

All Starships with a Matter/Antimatter reactor have Antimatter storage tanks, they need to be able to fuel their own reactors, and it would make sense if they used the same fuel in the reactors to arm their torpedoes.  Injectors can be made so that they do not react with the Antimatter and they can be pumped directly into the torpedo.  Or because that is an accident waiting to happen, they can come pre-armed, but that is also a danger.  So I still am undecided myself as to how the Torpedoes are stored, whether they are inert and need fuel from the tank, or whether they are pre-armed.  If they need fuel, what happens should a Starship run out of anti-matter or at least have its tanks cut off from the ship through damage?  Does this mean that non-warp powered ships can't even carry Photons?  I know there's not going to be many of those left, even in the 23rd Century, but what would they carry if they couldn't?
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#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2015, 03:49:26 pm »
Here's the tech manual specs on torpedoes. As a disclaimer, this is not canon but was written by those who wrote the tech in the episodes but this info may be contradicted by other episodes.

The "zero point" stuff Picard mentions probably comes from the DS9 tech manual, which I'll also dig up.

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2015, 05:13:39 pm »
Here's the relevant pages from the DS9 Tech Manual

#### Tulwar

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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2015, 07:05:04 pm »
First, we should mention that television writers have little respect for the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, so the torpedoes can be charged with magical energy.  If you remember, in ST DS9, they laid a mine field at the mouth of the worm hole, and the mines simply replicated themselves when the Dominion attempted to clear the field.  Energy seems to come out of nowhere through most of the series.  Whenever the captain gives the order, the explosive fuel is magically infused into the torpedo.  The torpedo was empty, but there is no transfer of matter and/or anti-matter from anywhere.  The writers don't think like this, so it doesn't happen.  This is how the Klingon can put their Photon Torpedoes in the noses of their ships.

Having grown up with ST, I've come up with my alternate universe that picks up on the good stuff, and ignores the illogical BS.  TOS didn't have everything thought out, so it gets a pass on its many failings.  In ST, TMP, the refit Enterprise had the torpedo bays right on top of where you'd think the anti-matter storage units were.  This is consistent with charging the torpedo just prior to launch.  As far as the Klingon ship went, well, that just doesn't fit this line of logic.  Either they have to transfer the fuel from the back of the ship, store the torpedo pre-loaded, or simply apply the old Hollywood magic.  From there, every ST ship ranges somewhere between these extremes.  Only those closest to the refit Enterprise make sense to me.

There really shouldn't be any reason that torpedo cases can't be replicated.  Then, there could be some complication with warp coils or other, who knows?  I like the idea of ships being independent enough to manufacture their own.  Well, maybe not fighters or gunboats, but something designed for independent operations better be able to handle itself.  The explosive is a different matter.  I've always thought of Anti-matter as a storage medium in and of itself.  It takes a great deal of energy to create anti-matter, and starships considerable quantities.  Anti-matter has to be produced somewhere.

As far as Anti-Carbon being safe in a Silicone container, I wouldn't be so sure.  Nuclei might be safe, as the electron shells of matter would repel nuclei composed of anti-protons, but with electircally neutral atoms, there would be a problem: positrons would be ripped from their shells, and react with normal matter.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:43:22 pm by Tulwar »
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#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2015, 09:53:23 am »
I don't really remember ever hearing it mentioned that torpedoes couldn't be replicated; can anyone cite a reference to this?

At the risk of offending, but with all respect and humility, the show's not supposed to be about the tech. Never was, and shouldn't be. It's about the characters and plot, which is what the writers were going after. This sometimes might lead to awkward contradictions but you have to let some of that slide, just like how we "ignore" the dramatic pause every 7 - 10 minutes for a commercial break. I love trying to figure out how phasers and photons might "work" too, but they just do

#### Tulwar

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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2015, 04:34:00 pm »
At the risk of offending, but with all respect and humility, the show's not supposed to be about the tech. Never was, and shouldn't be. It's about the characters and plot, which is what the writers were going after.

Any audience needs to accept convention, but there is a point were the amount of convention the audience has to accept exceeds the capacity to suspend disbelief.  I have a problem with the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy.  Now, the plot device where Rom came up with self replicating mines could be excused for the sake of a good story, but all across the movies and series, the energy used by a starship comes from nowhere.  It's not that it is "unrealistic," but something the writers actually trip over themselves.  That is, if the writers had a clue as to what basic energy systems worked on a ship, their job would have been much easier.

For a franchise that has been lauded for its prescience, everything after TOS really falls on its face.  It became like Star Wars, but with really bad technobable.  The Star Gate series did what ST should have been doing.  The writers for SG1 and Atlantis were really on the ball with making their technology realistic.  There, the premise was hokey, but they stayed true to science.  Every line of dialog about technology was completely believable.  With all the ST "technical manuals," you wonder how another franchise beat ST at its own game.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2015, 04:44:51 pm »
I don't know if thee any manual that explain how the torpedo work. I think I remember in a manual that they did use matter antimatter and destroyed something on a distance of like 9KM radius.

It was something about ship design, a manual that give you how much x tech cost to build. From FASA and from last century

But still the question is how the control the "blast" of the torpedo?

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2015, 04:50:15 pm »
For a franchise that has been lauded for its prescience, everything after TOS really falls on its face.

IDK, personal data-pad/tablets connected to a central cloud computer network seems pretty on the mark right about now.

#### Lieutenant_Q

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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2015, 05:54:32 pm »
Honestly its more "real" than people think.  Yes, its entertainment, don't let the science get in the way of the story.  But for the most part, with exceptions given to things like using a Transporter to reverse the aging process, (again don't let the scientific theory of how it should work get in the way of the story), the science stays somewhat consistent.

The amount of power used by a Star Trek ship for example, it should be a lot, and a lot of times you only ever hear of the M/AM reactor as powering the whole ship, even in the episodes its said that that's the case.  Well it's not.  Everyone forgets that the Impulse Engines are powered by a separate system, a Fusion Plant, and I speculate that there would be one for each Engine (or more) so a ship like the Ent-D would have 3 to 6 Fusion Plants backing up the M/AM reactor.  They mention it in passing in several places, but its never focused on.  The one that comes to mind is Enterprise when they are tying in the new Phase Cannons, instead of tying their power connections to the M/AM reactor, they choose the Impulse Engines instead.  Phase Cannons and their successor the Phasers are powered by Impulse Engines for the next 120 years, until the TMP refit ties the Phasers into the M/AM reactor.

A lot of the base science stuff.  Tricorders, Sensors, Engines, and even shields, cloaks and transporters, are sound theories, they may not come to fruition as they were imagined to be 50 years ago, some may never come to fruition, but there's two generations of scientists and engineers that grew up on this stuff, and are testing those theories.  As Corbomite said, almost all the computer technology that was in Star Trek and its spinoffs, we already have it.  We have voice activated computers, we have Tablets, we have Cell Phones and Bluetooth devices to connect to the computers.  Heck we've even got holograms.

I think a lot times we focus on the exceptions, the self replicating minefield, because the exception was needed to advance the story.  But after the exception was used to advance the story, it was promptly forgotten about, because it really never could do that.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2015, 06:32:00 pm »
I notice that the Rom and Klingon have the same "laptop" as the fed. The terminal they have on their desk to view stuff.

The device use by Barcley when he was connected to the ship computer was use in the klingon hall as a chandelier

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2015, 06:57:48 pm »
Well Tulwar, I think you're over simplifying the writers' work and using things like "Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy" (in capital letters) just to say how they're wrong. Most of the time they tried and got close, and sometimes not. Look, the ship has energy. It flies because it does. Precisely how the antimatter gets into a torpedo is really less important than whether or not it stops the bad guy of the week. I can't cite an exact example but I'm sure "The Last Ship," a contemporary military series, fudged exactly how the Praire/Masker system (or something like it) actually works to keep things dramatic. I know real crime scene investigators laugh at how fast tech works in "CSI" and how they dress in street clothes and not safety gear, but I still like watching Elisabeth Shue solve crimes in under an hour and looking snazzy while she does

Way back in 1968 Roddenberry was quoted in the excellent "The Making of Star Trek" as saying something like, "Sgt Friday doesn't pick up his .38 special and explain how the firing pin triggers a chemical reaction in the cartridge and the expanding gas propels the bullet along the barrel before shooting it... Capt Kirk shouldn't do it either."

Again, I get how it's fun to speculate, and it's frustrating when they botch some things, but it's better than a lot. TOS suffers more I think  but more because they were using 1960s info.

Don Karnage, I don't know the FASA stuff well, but did you see my previous attachments with the tech manuals? Here's the page on the mailgned "self-replicating mines" from DS9. It's pretty fudgy; I dislike the overuse of the "zero point energy domain" that plagues quantum torpedoes too.

I'm fairly sure some Cardassian padds showed up as Starfleet ones in "First Contact" after a paint job....

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2015, 08:33:34 pm »
I've always thought that the torpedoes were stored ready to fire, possibly using ships power for containment.  As for photon torpedoes not being replicated, I think its implied in the early episodes of Voyager where it was stated that the ship had a limited number of photons which couldn't be replaced. (during the course of the series, it surpassed them).  The only thing I can think of is that it has been established that some elements cannot be replicated, ie. latinum.  Torpedoes may require one of these elements making them non-replicatable.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2015, 09:25:30 pm »
That would explain how the still have torpedo after 7 years. they must have found what ever they need to make more.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2015, 11:44:29 pm »

For a franchise that has been lauded for its prescience, everything after TOS really falls on its face.  It became like Star Wars, but with really bad technobable.

No, Star Trek didn't fully make sense until after TOS.  That's when they started trying to establish rules for the universe and actually have some degree of consistency.  It didn't become like Star Wars until TROST destroyed the franchize in 2009.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2015, 06:48:35 am »
I'm pretty sure that anti-matter can't be replicated. That leaves the detonator as the only other crucial element that needs that kind of trait. The rest is just common parts. It's like that last episode with Ro Laren when they were trying to convince the Maquis that the Cardassians were attempting to construct a bio-genic weapon; the components themselves weren't illegal or restricted, but put together the right way and you have a problem.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2015, 07:04:25 am »
Just because making antimatter is difficult and expensive now doesn't mean that it would be in TOS or later.
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#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2015, 10:19:54 am »
Oh, latinum can't be replicated because ithey're copy-protected. DRM survives to the 24th century it seems.

So i guess photorps are a proprietary system. Must be an Apple product and it took a season or two for someone to find a Linux hack for the licensed components

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2015, 11:50:07 am »
And Steamboat Willie will still be under copyright.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2015, 12:18:36 pm »
250 photon torpedo? on the Enterprise D?

Kirk's ship got around 500 and it was smaller that the D.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2015, 12:26:39 pm »
Kirk didn't have to have nurseries and kindergarten.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2015, 12:44:58 pm »
I don't see the point, the big D is like 4 time the size of the A, so it should have more torpedo if its like a battleship? There a lot of place to store more torpedo that the A.

#### FPF-DieHard

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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2015, 12:58:53 pm »
This is why basing a game on Trek "cannon" is madness

I've fired way more than 500 torps in some fights.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2015, 02:05:57 pm »
In the episode whit the species who talk with example the Enterprise fire phaser with its torpedo tube. I was wondering why?

I don't remember seeing them fire torpedo from the phaser array?

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2015, 02:51:24 pm »

I've fired way more than 500 torps in some fights.

How long did those matches go for?  Could you even stand by the time they were over?

#### FPF-DieHard

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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2015, 03:23:56 pm »

I've fired way more than 500 torps in some fights.

How long did those matches go for?  Could you even stand by the time they were over?

i was a much younger man back then, longest fight was a 3+ hour F-CLC versus R-SPJ (the one with 3 S torps), back we we had like 40 spare parts on a ship.  easily fired 1000 photons.

I see a Photon Torps as a railgun the fires an anti-matter bomb, stored uncharged and takes warp power to charge because as it's charged it siphons detrium/anti-detirum from the warp-core.  It has a physical casing but there's not much to it so you can hold a zillion on a ship.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2015, 05:44:43 pm »
In seasons 5 episode 19 is that Tom Paris? The Cadet with the 4 bars? At 2:17.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2015, 05:46:52 pm »
No, that's Nicholas Locarno.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2015, 05:54:40 pm »

I've fired way more than 500 torps in some fights.

How long did those matches go for?  Could you even stand by the time they were over?

i was a much younger man back then, longest fight was a 3+ hour F-CLC versus R-SPJ (the one with 3 S torps), back we we had like 40 spare parts on a ship.  easily fired 1000 photons.

You'd think at some point he would have downgraded to all F's and ran you down like a SPZ. With all those spares he could have easily taken the bloody nose. But then again, D2 Roms were always too timid and seemed to never hear of a NSM. I managed a lot of Fed kills playing Rom when they expected me to hold off more and play coy when instead I'd go in for the kill right off.

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2015, 06:01:17 pm »
Don, are you just scrolling though epsiodes without watching them??

BTW, where does this "500 torps on the TOS 1701" come from? An episode? 'Cause, if not, it's not canon (the correct spelling of the word, not a piece of artillery)

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2015, 06:46:49 pm »
I watch them, but some not completely

In Star Trek VI how many torpedo where on the ship? I think its like 500?

I taught it was Tom since he was in Star fleet when he join the maki. i don't know what rank he was so I taught he might be him during his time at the academy, like 5 years before Voyager.

#### Vipre

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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2015, 12:55:02 am »
It's a very common mistake and question because at first they were supposed to be the same character..

Robert Duncan McNeill got the gig on Voyager because the producers/creators/whomever liked him in that episodes.

"Originally the writers planned to use the character of Nicolas Locarno, who was played by McNeill in the Next Generation episode "The First Duty". However, this would have required royalties to be paid to that episode's writers for every additional episode in which the Locarno character appeared.[citation needed] As a result, Voyager‍ '​s writers created an entirely new character sharing many of Locarno's attributes."

Frakkin money, just about everything boils down to it.

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#### Lieutenant_Q

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« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2015, 03:26:47 am »
I seem to recall there only being 4 columns of about 20 entries in the inventory screen.  I haven't seen a screen cap of it, but that would mean the Ent-A would only have 80 torpedoes.

I used to play a game for the PC called Star Trek: The Rebel Universe.  It was a DOS based text game, with images, and crude line drawings, excellent for its time.  The Enterprise had 50 torpedoes in that game.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

#### Tulwar

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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2015, 08:49:04 am »
My strong denunciation of ST technology came from watching Voyager, and later with Enterprise offering us tid bits like phasers being "particle weapons."  ST DS9 was wonderful when they kept to politics.  When they got into the gadgetry of things, well, they did get kinda goofy.  Voyager was being produced at the same time as Star Gate.  The SG writers has some wonderful physicists working with their staff of writers.  Voyager was asking us to being that water was scarce on the other side of the galaxy.  Anybody that wants a little science in their fiction has got to hate that.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2015, 09:09:30 am »
Seasons 5 episode 23 I Borg. that Borg was a teenager, but was not in a maturation chamber. In voyager Echab and the other Borg who where kids and teenager where in maturation chamber.

So if that Borg "Hue" was a teenager, why was he not in a maturation chamber?

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2015, 11:52:07 am »
"Hugh" wasn't in a maturation chamber because, different writers. IMO, I think there's a sliding scale for different species, when they were assimilated, needs of that particular cluster of drones, but, different writers.

I'm glad that they rewrote McNeill's character as Tom Paris,  Locarno was kinda a dick but who knows, maybe that coudla worked. The two characters do look alike (obviously), but if you listen, I don't know, to the actual dialogue, he's referred to as "Nick" or "Locarno." When Nick Tate showed up in TNG "Final Mission," I didn't think it was Alan Carter...

hattahs gotta hate -  I don't think they were trying to say water itself was scarce in the Delta Quadrant, just on the surface of Kes's homeworld. Sure, I got a little squirmy over the idea that even the Kazon couldn't condense hydrogen and oxygen into H2O, but the real point was that they "weren't in Kansas anymore" and things like replicators might be non-standard. Cherry-picked example anyhows - there's plenty of good science in all Trek, and I'd stack Okuda/Sternbach/Bormanis against SG anytime, but you see what you want to see.

Here's the screencap of the torpedo inventory on 1701A in ST6. Four columns of 24 each, so, 96 on that page. Seems like a good number; about 85 to 90 cubic meters that we've established have to be someplace "safe" near the launchers.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2015, 11:55:56 am »
I couch download couch the movie so I can check that

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2015, 12:58:10 pm »
Voyager was asking us to being that water was scarce on the other side of the galaxy.  Anybody that wants a little science in their fiction has got to hate that.

Not really.  Water ice is common.  Liquid water is alot less common.  Harvesting water ice from comets and asteroids might sound like a good idea, and it probably is for supporting a small outpost in the outer solar system, but when you think about the level of intensive labor needed to support an entire civilization through harvesting the water, and carrying it to where the people are, its understandable that there might be shortages of drinkable water, and that it would be a valuable commodity.

#### Tulwar

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« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2015, 04:21:04 pm »
Knightstorm, the scarcity of water was not presented as a mere planetary phenomenon.  The Federation's technology to synthesize water on board a starship was presented as something beyond Kazon technology.  This is just silly.  Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe.  If there is breathable air, anywhere, there is plenty of oxygen.  To synthesize water, all you need is a match.  People cannot live in spaceships without enough industry to synthesize everything we take for granted on Earth.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2015, 05:58:05 pm »
Admittedly, it was clumsily written in the pilot, but I really think it was more about the replicator technology and not just "water". And it certainly didn't figure in any other episodes after that.

Look, it's like "Threshold." Or "Spock's Brain". Or "Code of Honor." Or "Move Along Home." Let's just pretend that never happened, okay??

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2015, 09:41:06 am »
In the episode time's arrow when Picard and the other when back in time, where did they find the clothing of the period? They where in Star Fleet uniform, so mostly Riker where did he get a police uniform?

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2015, 09:56:24 am »
I suppose a variation on what Kirk and Spock did in "City on the Edge..." After all, isn't that the first rule of time travelling, mug someone, steal their clothes?

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2015, 10:16:03 am »
In the episode time's arrow when Picard and the other when back in time, where did they find the clothing of the period? They where in Star Fleet uniform, so mostly Riker where did he get a police uniform?

The wardrobe department.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2015, 11:06:16 am »
Hmm maybe, for both case.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2015, 11:10:30 am »
They knew from dating Datas head and the artifacts with it how far back they were going and where.  As I recall they went back dressed for the time and yes that means they did use the Enterprise wardrobe department.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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#### knightstorm

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« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2015, 03:48:17 pm »
Knightstorm, the scarcity of water was not presented as a mere planetary phenomenon.  The Federation's technology to synthesize water on board a starship was presented as something beyond Kazon technology.  This is just silly.  Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe.  If there is breathable air, anywhere, there is plenty of oxygen.  To synthesize water, all you need is a match.  People cannot live in spaceships without enough industry to synthesize everything we take for granted on Earth.

If planetary shortages of water are common, it stands to reason that water conservation would be emphasized for individuals traveling through space.  Ie.  Why would you waste a commodity which is worth more than gold.  As for producing water.  Methods of extracting hydrogen gas are all somewhat labor intensive, and you're also assuming that the civilizations in question haven't exhausted their fossil fuels supplies already.  How much coal and oil would you have to process to provide a population of 1 billion with sufficient drinking water.  If you're referring to collecting hydrogen from space, it presents the same problems as collecting icy rocks.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2015, 03:56:06 pm »
They knew from dating Datas head and the artifacts with it how far back they were going and where.  As I recall they went back dressed for the time and yes that means they did use the Enterprise wardrobe department.

But they did not wear clothing from that time when they go back on time, they where wearing they Star Fleet uniform at that time. So unless the manage to find clothing that fit them, hats and a police uniform.

So how did they get those clothing? Did they sell they communicator? They did not have currency or pocket to or anything to buy the clothing.

So unless they steal them from a store that was close I don't see how they get clothing from that time. Also what did they do with they uniform? Data and the others?

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2015, 04:05:29 pm »

Look, it's like "Threshold." Or "Spock's Brain". Or "Code of Honor." Or "Move Along Home." Let's just pretend that never happened, okay??

Hey Spock's Brain was awesome.  Outside of the coolness of the remote control Spock, the episode had the best description of women you'll ever hear on TV.  "The ones who bring pleasure and pain."

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2015, 05:19:29 pm »

Look, it's like "Threshold." Or "Spock's Brain". Or "Code of Honor." Or "Move Along Home." Let's just pretend that never happened, okay??

Hey Spock's Brain was awesome.  Outside of the coolness of the remote control Spock, the episode had the best description of women you'll ever hear on TV.  "The ones who bring pleasure and pain."

Eymorg!!

#### Tulwar

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« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2015, 05:47:14 pm »

If planetary shortages of water are common, it stands to reason that water conservation would be emphasized for individuals traveling through space.  Ie.  Why would you waste a commodity which is worth more than gold.  As for producing water.  Methods of extracting hydrogen gas are all somewhat labor intensive, and you're also assuming that the civilizations in question haven't exhausted their fossil fuels supplies already.  How much coal and oil would you have to process to provide a population of 1 billion with sufficient drinking water.  If you're referring to collecting hydrogen from space, it presents the same problems as collecting icy rocks.

If you'll go down to the mat defending this horse manure, you'll defend anything.  I'm not wasting any more words.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### TAnimaL

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« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2015, 07:45:17 pm »
Tulwar hath spoken. All hail Tulwar.

Do you mind putting a hold on the rampant misogyny as well?

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2015, 09:26:01 pm »

If planetary shortages of water are common, it stands to reason that water conservation would be emphasized for individuals traveling through space.  Ie.  Why would you waste a commodity which is worth more than gold.  As for producing water.  Methods of extracting hydrogen gas are all somewhat labor intensive, and you're also assuming that the civilizations in question haven't exhausted their fossil fuels supplies already.  How much coal and oil would you have to process to provide a population of 1 billion with sufficient drinking water.  If you're referring to collecting hydrogen from space, it presents the same problems as collecting icy rocks.

If you'll go down to the mat defending this horse manure, you'll defend anything.  I'm not wasting any more words.

Considering the idiocy you've posted in your quest to dump on anything that doesn't fit into your narrow 1970s licensed material world view, that's rich.  There's alot to criticize about Voyager, but the apparent lack of planetary water supplies in a relatively small segment of the galaxy isn't one of them.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 10:20:03 pm by knightstorm »

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2015, 10:06:25 pm »

Do you mind putting a hold on the rampant misogyny as well?

It not misogynistic.  You've obviously never experienced what a woman can do with a ball gag and a riding crop.

More Spock's Brain awesomeness
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 04:35:49 am by knightstorm »

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2015, 09:10:30 am »
Yeah, ST was never  misogynistic. Note the comment about pleasure and pain.

 It Has No Bite

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2015, 01:12:52 pm »
They knew from dating Datas head and the artifacts with it how far back they were going and where.  As I recall they went back dressed for the time and yes that means they did use the Enterprise wardrobe department.

But they did not wear clothing from that time when they go back on time, they where wearing they Star Fleet uniform at that time. So unless the manage to find clothing that fit them, hats and a police uniform.

So how did they get those clothing? Did they sell they communicator? They did not have currency or pocket to or anything to buy the clothing.

So unless they steal them from a store that was close I don't see how they get clothing from that time. Also what did they do with they uniform? Data and the others?

I watched through it last night and they had a "time jump" between them going into the past and showing them in the past.  Their landlord for example was complaining of them being a day late on their weekly rent which to me implies they had been there several days at least.  So somewhere between their going through the gate and being seen by the audience in the past is where they got the clothing.  So where it came from is anyones guess.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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#### Tulwar

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« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2015, 01:27:08 pm »
Do you mind putting a hold on the rampant misogyny as well?

WTF?
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#### FPF-DieHard

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« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2015, 03:01:29 pm »

Do you mind putting a hold on the rampant misogyny as well?

Rampant misogyny is what I live for.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2015, 07:57:01 am »
In season 6 episode Birthright, one of the female Klingon look like Saavic from ST 2-3

Season 6 Episode 12 About the hologram of professor Moriarty after the return of Voyageur did Star Fleet copy the EMH holo emitter for his and his companion?

Season 6 episode 26 the transwarp conduit, why Voyageur never replicate that to return to the alpha quadrant?

Season 6 episode 26 why did the Borg did not try to retrieve the "rogue" Borg into the collective?

Season 7 episode 1 the ensine on the bridge look like the girl from the relay station from season 6 episode 13 Aquiel.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2015, 09:03:36 pm »

Season 6 Episode 12 About the hologram of professor Moriarty after the return of Voyageur did Star Fleet copy the EMH holo emitter for his and his companion?

Season 6 episode 26 the transwarp conduit, why Voyageur never replicate that to return to the alpha quadrant?

Season 6 episode 26 why did the Borg did not try to retrieve the "rogue" Borg into the collective?

The holoemitter was advanced 29th century technology.  Duplicating it would be like giving someone from the ninteenth century a smart phone and asking them to make one.

The episode established that they needed a component from the Borg ships in order to use the conduits, which they couldn't duplicate, and were only good for a limited amount of time after the ship's destruction.  As for why they didn't re-assimilate seven of nine, the queen stated that she wanted someone who could think like a human as the collective had already expended far more resources than it should in its attempts to assimilate earth.

#### Vipre

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« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2015, 11:25:39 pm »
Season 6 Episode 12 About the hologram of professor Moriarty after the return of Voyageur did Star Fleet copy the EMH holo emitter for his and his companion?

That event takes place nine years "in universe" before Voyager's return, two years before it was even built. So no. The device used was a sort of holodeck in a box.

Regarding after the return if I misunderstood, in addition to knightstorm's answer I'd add that Moriarty was and remains an extremely dangerous villain, no chance they'd ever even consider letting him run free.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2015, 06:39:21 am »

Season 6 Episode 12 About the hologram of professor Moriarty after the return of Voyageur did Star Fleet copy the EMH holo emitter for his and his companion?

Season 6 episode 26 the transwarp conduit, why Voyageur never replicate that to return to the alpha quadrant?

Season 6 episode 26 why did the Borg did not try to retrieve the "rogue" Borg into the collective?

The holoemitter was advanced 29th century technology.  Duplicating it would be like giving someone from the ninteenth century a smart phone and asking them to make one.

The episode established that they needed a component from the Borg ships in order to use the conduits, which they couldn't duplicate, and were only good for a limited amount of time after the ship's destruction.  As for why they didn't re-assimilate seven of nine, the queen stated that she wanted someone who could think like a human as the collective had already expended far more resources than it should in its attempts to assimilate earth.

I was referring about the Borg that where with Hue. The Borg that Lore use for his experiment. They where not with the collective, so why the Borg have not go after them?

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2015, 08:05:45 am »
Once a drone is disconnected from the collective, it is considered dead and gone for all intents and purposes as far as the Borg are concerned (unless there is an ulterior motive as with 7 of 9). There was an entire colony of ex-Borg that Voyager encountered. Unless the drone is carrying something vital to the Borg, it is entirely expendable.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #86 on: September 10, 2015, 08:26:57 am »
Season 6 episode 26 the transwarp conduit, why Voyageur never replicate that to return to the alpha quadrant?

Transwarp is somewhat undefined. There seems to be at least two ways to go about it: Construct a (semi?) permanent "highway" that requires entry and exit at or near particular points in space and some form of outside mechanism to keep the transwarp conduit open (like the Borg and the Vaadwaur do) or have some sort of ship-borne engine that allows the ship to travel freely in and out of transwarp at will (like the Voth do).

Knowing what we do about the Borg, it would stand to reason that the conduit system is faster and more efficient (at least for longer journeys), but comes with the limitation of having fixed entry and exit points. Alternatively, the technology to place it stand alone on ships may be very hard to develop and produce. The Voth had hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years to perfect it and they may be able to stave off the Borg without much effort, so the Borg may not have been able to assimilate that knowledge.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2015, 06:18:52 pm »
In seasons 7 episode 9 Geordy was talking about the Intrepid. I was wondering since Voyager is a Intrepid class, are they talking about the Intrepid from the Intrepid class or another ship?

Also what happen to Data's cat? We never herd of it in any of the movies.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2015, 08:03:12 pm »
He wanted too much money.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2015, 09:07:07 pm »
He wanted too much money.

Too much ?! He's a key character in the series, more important that Picard is

Also one thing I was wondering, Picard is suppose to be French, but they chose  British actor. Also when he was a kid again they also chose a British actor. Not sure that Gen Roddenberry knew the difference between a British and a French ! Still good actor for the role tough.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2015, 10:01:46 pm »
Also one thing I was wondering, Picard is suppose to be French, but they chose  British actor. Also when he was a kid again they also chose a British actor. Not sure that Gen Roddenberry knew the difference between a British and a French ! Still good actor for the role tough.

Shatner was Canadian and they hired him to play an American.
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#### knightstorm

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« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2015, 11:59:14 pm »
In seasons 7 episode 9 Geordy was talking about the Intrepid. I was wondering since Voyager is a Intrepid class, are they talking about the Intrepid from the Intrepid class or another ship?

Also what happen to Data's cat? We never herd of it in any of the movies.

Based on the timeframe, its possible that the Intrepid in question was the lead ship of the Intrepid class, or it could have been the previous Intrepid which was an Excelsior class Starship which Sergei Rozenko served on.  It was the first ship to respond to the Khitomer massacre.  Its a safe bet to assume that he wasn't referring to the Essex class aircraft carrier which is currently a museum in NYC.

As for Spot, Data found her alive in the wreckage of the Enterprise saucer section at the end of Generations.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2015, 07:09:49 am »
You sure have many many questions.

Its because i question everything
Also one thing I was wondering, Picard is suppose to be French, but they chose  British actor. Also when he was a kid again they also chose a British actor. Not sure that Gen Roddenberry knew the difference between a British and a French ! Still good actor for the role tough.

Shatner was Canadian and they hired him to play an American.

I know, but there are no real difference in the accent between Canadian and American, well depend where they came from.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2015, 09:08:55 am »
Why Data always says that he's unique like his brother did not exist ?

Also Why Lore wanted the emotional chips when he already have emotion?

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2015, 12:30:12 pm »
I know, but there are no real difference in the accent between Canadian and American, well depend where they came from.

There is more than that

We don't have the extreme polarization on politics and religion.

We aren't as lawsuit crazy.  The whole lawsuit lottery thing doesn't play up here.

We don't have our film/TV program makers go "Hey that's a neat idea for a program, lets make our own version"  We just broadcast the original.

We manage to run a multi party system but they can only handle a 2 party system.

The war on drugs never really caught on up here and if it wasn't for the constant pressure from the U.S. we might have legalized marijuana a couple of decades ago.

Canadian beer has detectable alcohol in it.  (Don't drink myself so that is only hearsay to me)

Women can go topless in public here.

Prostitution is legal here (but buying from them isn't  ).
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2015, 12:53:31 pm »
Well about the prostitution there is a small mistake, it was decriminalize, not legalize. I don't know the political BS of it but its just mean not much.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2015, 03:52:21 pm »
I know, but there are no real difference in the accent between Canadian and American, well depend where they came from.

We manage to run a multi party system but they can only handle a 2 party system.

We have more than 2 parties, but our government is structured in a way that tends to discourage membership in minor parties in favor of larger "big tent parties."

Women can go topless in public here.

Canadian women must like their boobs freezing off.  Women can go topless in the US too depending on the state.  In my home state of NY women have had the right for over 20 years.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2015, 06:03:13 pm »
The only thing I have ever been told that explains the U.S. being only two parties is the "first past the post system" which is shared with Canada.  All my life we have had AT LEAST one semi major party along with the two majors and a bunch of "lunatic fringe" parties.  The U.S. can't seem to do the same.  Minority governments usually do a good job at humbling the politicians for a while.

But we are straying towards Hot and Spicy.  I'd rather not have to move the thread so be nice guys.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2015, 07:42:33 pm »
Well stay on topic

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2015, 10:51:15 pm »
The only thing I have ever been told that explains the U.S. being only two parties is the "first past the post system" which is shared with Canada.  All my life we have had AT LEAST one semi major party along with the two majors and a bunch of "lunatic fringe" parties.  The U.S. can't seem to do the same.  Minority governments usually do a good job at humbling the politicians for a while.

But we are straying towards Hot and Spicy.  I'd rather not have to move the thread so be nice guys.

Single member districts, and presidential democracy both tend to marginalize minor parties.  The US combines the two.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2015, 09:59:57 am »
Season 7 episode 12 The Pegasus
Ricker was an Ensine at that time and 12 years later he's a commander. So I was wondering why in Voyager Ensine Kim was never promoted to at lest lieutenant during the 7 years he was aboard the Voyager ?

!2 years seem a short time from ensine to commander?

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2015, 10:07:14 am »
Voyager was a unique situation.  With the ship in the Delta quadrant, there was no ability to transfer off so few opportunities for promotion.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2015, 12:47:19 pm »
Episode 13, the fed have only 2 M class world that his not habitat in they data base? Also the civilization that is like medieval have rubber boots, its too advance for them, they should have boot made with animals skin.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2015, 01:14:48 pm »

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2015, 01:23:57 pm »
TNG seasons 7 episode 14 at 38:54 on the tomb stone the name is Mc Fly (back to the future)  I know its Irish but it remind me of Marty Mc Fly.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2015, 01:42:56 pm »
Here a screenshot of it.

#### Corbomite

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« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2015, 01:48:48 pm »
I know its Irish but it remind me of Marty Mc Fly.

Actually, that colony was recreating the Scottish Highlands, not Ireland.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2015, 05:25:42 pm »
Episode 13, the fed have only 2 M class world that his not habitat in they data base? Also the civilization that is like medieval have rubber boots, its too advance for them, they should have boot made with animals skin.

You didn't specify what series, or season so I can't fully answer your questions.  But regarding the boots, why not rubber?  Its an alien world.  You don't know what types of vegetation are available to them, or what technological processes they have.

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2015, 05:48:14 pm »
TNG, seasons 7 episode 13.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2015, 06:05:46 pm »
TNG, seasons 7 episode 13.

My guess for why there were only two worlds was that they were factoring in the time it would take the holodeck to fail and whether or not the Enterprise could reach them.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2015, 07:50:09 pm »
TNG, seasons 7 episode 13.

One of my least favourite TNG episodes.  The way TNG twists the Prime Directive.

Consider in All Our Yesterdays Kirk is sent to a pre warp planet that is about to be destroyed by a Nova to contact them and ferry as many of them as they can to safety.  In optimum situation that would be at most a few thousands assuming there was a nearby system less than 2 light months away where they could drop the overload of people only to relay them to a safe distance before the shock wave hit them there.  The goal of the Prime Directive is to PROTECT a developing culture.  This is why when Kirk interferes with Vaal, Landru, the Iotians an others he is not in violation.

TNG on the other hand happily lets cultures be destroyed in the name of the Prime Directive.  Picard has to have his arm twisted to save cultures from outside destruction.
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#### Nemesis

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« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2015, 08:16:04 pm »
Episode 13, the fed have only 2 M class world that his not habitat in they data base? Also the civilization that is like medieval have rubber boots, its too advance for them, they should have boot made with animals skin.

Only 2 were within range that they might get to them before the damaged holodeck broke down.  Dr.  Crusher said there were "countless" type M in the Federation.

As to the boots and "medieval civilization".  How do you know it medieval?  Just because their clothing is more like the medieval means nothing.  Why couldn't they have a material native to their world that would make creating the boots easy?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2015, 08:55:16 pm »
Well rubber is from a tree and its not like the can just manipulated like skin to make boots.

Nothing indicate a industrial level or close to it. i don't know what you want to call it, but its kinda like medieval to me.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2015, 09:04:13 pm »
What about their lights?
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2015, 09:17:24 pm »
Magic ? I was thinking it was Worf's brother who give it to them. Since one of them who get out of the holodeck was not able to understand anything or was just unable to live with a secret and couldn't not live away from his peoples suggest that they are not advance enough to understand anything.

Well he seem a bit afraid and they have no transport or any government or leader in the village. That planet did not have cities of light, road or anything to say that it was advance.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2015, 11:11:15 pm »
Well rubber is from a tree and its not like the can just manipulated like skin to make boots.

Nothing indicate a industrial level or close to it. i don't know what you want to call it, but its kinda like medieval to me.

Native Americans were able to cure rubber by mixing it with other types of saps as early as 1600 bc.  By the time the Spanish arrived Aztecs were already wearing rubber sandals.  Just because Europeans didn't have something in their medieval period doesn't mean another culture might not develop it.

#### Vipre

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« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2015, 11:36:32 pm »
Additionally there's nothing, unless there's some external source in play, within the episode to suggest they're wearing anything other than leather boots.
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#### Nemesis

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« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2015, 06:42:05 am »
Well he seem a bit afraid and they have no transport or any government or leader in the village. That planet did not have cities of light, road or anything to say that it was advance.

No evidence for that.  After days of storms bad enough to damage the Enterprise in orbit in spite of deflectors and requiring a force field (from Worfs brother) to protect them in the caves, signs from orbit of our society would be nil without high magnification which was not used.
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#### Corbomite

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« Reply #118 on: September 14, 2015, 09:04:11 am »
TNG, seasons 7 episode 13.

One of my least favourite TNG episodes.  The way TNG twists the Prime Directive.

Consider in All Our Yesterdays Kirk is sent to a pre warp planet that is about to be destroyed by a Nova to contact them and ferry as many of them as they can to safety.  In optimum situation that would be at most a few thousands assuming there was a nearby system less than 2 light months away where they could drop the overload of people only to relay them to a safe distance before the shock wave hit them there.  The goal of the Prime Directive is to PROTECT a developing culture.  This is why when Kirk interferes with Vaal, Landru, the Iotians an others he is not in violation.

TNG on the other hand happily lets cultures be destroyed in the name of the Prime Directive.  Picard has to have his arm twisted to save cultures from outside destruction.

That always made me wrinkle my nose too. In The Paradise Syndrome not only are they there to save a primitive culture from their oblivious destruction, Spock is willing to abandon the captain and nearly destroy the ship trying to help them. In Pen Pals, Picard pretty much indicates that a species must be aware of alien existence and  actually ask for help before he can even consider assistance. Of course, I suppose you could say that Kirk's "cowboy diplomacy" handling of these situations led to the more restrictive doctrine we see in TNG  .

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2015, 12:35:00 pm »
It would be one thing to strengthen the non interference but to eliminate the PROTECT aspect is ridiculous.  If the Romulans were wiping them out Picard would step in but because it is "nature" it becomes "sucks to be them we can't interfere".  But with the "Overseer" Picard was ready to "cowboy it" like Kirk to save his own people.  Inconsistent and stupid.
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#### Corbomite

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« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2015, 01:18:21 pm »
Inconsistent and stupid.

Actually, that is typical human behavior. Restrictive and destructive polices only apply to people you don't  know.

#### Nemesis

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« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2015, 01:58:09 pm »
The guy on the scene however as a Starship Captain is of an elite that is supposed to be trusted to do what is right regardless of orders and their career.  Picard doesn't.  Kirk did.
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#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2015, 04:13:41 pm »
In TNG I notice that we see only once a Galaxy class, but we seen many time the Excelsior class, once we seen a Nebula I think (the Phoenix). So I was wondering why so little or none newer star ship?

I know that in DS9 when the encounter the Jemadar we seen a Galaxy class, but that's all.

Did Wolf 359 cause the fed to loose so many new class ship?

In Voyageur seasons 9 the last episode when they return the fed space inside the Borg Sphere there was many other class of ship, like the Prometheus.

I think I did ask those question many years before, I should check if I can find it

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2015, 04:38:25 pm »
Why do you say that I ask bizarre question?

I know they don't have many model made, but still they could show a bit more of the Galaxy class, the Miranda also. Since the Enterprise B model was build only for the movie Generation, after the series so we never seen any in the series. But how many of the Enterprise C where build? We seen many, well maybe its the same ship of Excelsior class who is older that the Enterprise C.

Does is say what happen to the Excelsior?

#### Don Karnage

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« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2015, 05:53:42 pm »
What was the name of the Galaxy class the explode in seasons one or two because of the matter/antimatter container that I think open for a brief moment and destroyed it?

It was the civilization that have portal to many place , a alien probe cause the "malfunction" of the other ship, like a virus.

Data was also "hit" by it and did a system purge of it to clean his memory of the alien probe.

In TNG season 1 or 2.

#### knightstorm

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« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2015, 11:09:49 pm »
Why do you say that I ask bizarre question?

I know they don't have many model made, but still they could show a bit more of the Galaxy class.

It was established that in the TNG era, the Galaxy class was still relatively new, and not common.

Since the Enterprise B model was build only for the movie Generation, after the series so we never seen any in the series.

The B was not built for generations.  It was a slight modification of the Excelsior Model.  It resulted in the model being damaged to the point that they couldn't restore it so subsequent appearances of the Excelsior model had that modification.

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2015, 01:56:41 pm »
If you want to know more about ships of Star Trek check out Trekyards.

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #127 on: November 05, 2015, 03:34:36 pm »
here's a link to that site:
http://trekyards.com/

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #128 on: December 25, 2015, 08:57:49 am »
Has anyone noticed that the original Enterprise, and to a lesser extent, the Refit, have a unique shape to their saucers, while all later versions have a somewhat similar, bland convex shape to their saucers?  The original Enterprise was actually concave on the bottom, before transforming into a cone.

Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #129 on: December 25, 2015, 11:23:28 am »
The unique shape of the TOS/TMP saucer has to do with the timeframe in which it germinated.  The TOS Enterprise was made during the sixties, and has a front like a muscle car.  The later ships were in the eighties and nineties when the front ends of sports cars were sloped in the opposite direction.

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #130 on: December 25, 2015, 11:33:48 am »

#### Javora

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #131 on: December 25, 2015, 03:15:59 pm »
Hated that '90s version of the Mustang, always thought it looked cheap economy car and nothing like a sports car that it pretended to be.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: Star Trek ships
« Reply #132 on: December 26, 2015, 07:21:05 am »
TOS Enterprise was a souped up Mustang.  Now, it makes sense.  The JJ-prize had Buick warp engine nacelles and a Ford engineering hull, so all it needed was a set of white walls to complete the look.  The 1965/66 Mustang is still a cool car.  1950's cars look every bit as clunky as the JJ-prize.  No wonder I hate it.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is Archer's ship.  It looks more like a TNG ship.

Automobiles are partially shaped for aerodynamics, well, the 1990's Fords were shaped almost exclusively for aerodynamics, but they are also designed for aesthetics.  TOS Enterprise was, of course, designed to look cool on TV, but it supposedly took its shape from practical necessity.  The model makers obviously saw the efficiency of convex shape to enclose a greater volume in the post-TOS designs.  Nobody made up a story to explain TOS series design, and thus, nothing derives from it.  That makes Kirk's Enterprize a complete odd-ball.  That bothers me.

The Klingon battle-cruiser is another odd-ball.  At the outset, it was designed to have all the features of the Enterprise.  It had two warp nacelles, separate command and engineering hulls, and a big honking forward facing dish antenna.  Curiously, the warp engine nacelles of the Klingon ship were made up of 3 cylinders that were about 1/3 the length of the Big-E's nacelles.  What make that ship difficult is that Jeffries incorporated some radical flourishes into hull structures.  Making something derivative, yet different is no mean feat.  The BoP is barely believable as a Klingon design, simply because the original Klingon ship is so weird.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary